Why don't we use flashing red arrows for turns on red?

Started by Ned Weasel, June 28, 2021, 06:54:33 PM

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Ned Weasel

For real--  It would make the whole activity of permitting or prohibiting turns on red a lot easier and more intuitive.  We use flashing yellow arrows for permissive turns that need to yield to conflicting movements--including yielding to conflicting U-turns.  So why not use flashing red arrows for turns that are permitted after a full stop?

(Actually, I know flashing red arrows are sometimes used similarly to flashing yellow arrows, where it's a permissive left turn across oncoming traffic, but what I'm talking about are good old right turns on red and left turns between two one-way roads.)
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tolbs17

So I guess stop and see if it's clear and then go lol

Scott5114

I would imagine it's probably because you're always supposed to stop before a right turn on red, so there's no need to have a signal redundantly inform drivers of this requirement. On the contrary, for a left turn, sometimes you get a protected movement, sometimes a permissive one, so the "yield before turning" message a left-turn FYA/FRA communicates is not merely restating a universal truth of the driving universe.

Additionally, in some areas (like central Oklahoma) right turns are not always given their own turn lane or signal, so it could lead to confusion if some right turns had a "stop before turning" arrow and some didn't (does it mean I don't have to stop before turning if there's no flashing red arrow?).
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hotdogPi

I agree that flashing red arrows should be used. Not just for right turns – they could also be used for going straight in some situations, like this one.
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tolbs17

Quote from: 1 on June 28, 2021, 07:45:42 PM
I agree that flashing red arrows should be used. Not just for right turns – they could also be used for going straight in some situations, like this one.
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Big John

I think this is meaning whether or not you can turn right on red after stopping for a red arrow.

Ned Weasel

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 28, 2021, 07:20:16 PM
I would imagine it's probably because you're always supposed to stop before a right turn on red, so there's no need to have a signal redundantly inform drivers of this requirement. On the contrary, for a left turn, sometimes you get a protected movement, sometimes a permissive one, so the "yield before turning" message a left-turn FYA/FRA communicates is not merely restating a universal truth of the driving universe.

Additionally, in some areas (like central Oklahoma) right turns are not always given their own turn lane or signal, so it could lead to confusion if some right turns had a "stop before turning" arrow and some didn't (does it mean I don't have to stop before turning if there's no flashing red arrow?).

That's kind of like saying there's no need to have a special signal for permissive-only left turns, because left turns, when permitted, are always supposed to yield on circular green.  Yet, we do:



If you ask me, it would make sense if we keep the traditional three-lens arrangement and allow right turns on a circular red when there's no right turn lane.  But when there is a right turn lane, take advantage of the opportunity to use a dedicated signal face consisting of [FRA, SYA, SGA], or [SRA, FRA, SYA, SGA] (if right turns on red need to be prohibited at times), or [FRA, SYA, FYA, SGA], or [SRA, FRA, SYA, FYA, SGA].*

If you question the practicality of this idea, I offer you this example.  Wouldn't it be easier to use a [SRA, FRA, SYA, FYA, SGA] signal for the right turn lane here instead of a traditional three-lens signal face accompanied by a big box that lights up when right turns on red are prohibited?  https://goo.gl/maps/XGXChqNhqdrb7t9AA

*If these abbreviations need explanation, S=steady, F=flashing, A=arrow, and R, Y, and G are the colors.
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Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

Henry

Unless all signals are flashing (like testing after initial setup), then I see no need for a flashing red arrow.
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ran4sh

Some states don't even traditionally use red arrows, so suddenly switching to FRA would confuse some of the older drivers who are used to seeing SRC [steady red circle] as the red indication for arrow signals along with SYA [steady yellow arrow] and SGA [steady green arrow].

Quote from: stridentweasel on June 29, 2021, 06:21:23 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 28, 2021, 07:20:16 PM
I would imagine it's probably because you're always supposed to stop before a right turn on red, so there's no need to have a signal redundantly inform drivers of this requirement. On the contrary, for a left turn, sometimes you get a protected movement, sometimes a permissive one, so the "yield before turning" message a left-turn FYA/FRA communicates is not merely restating a universal truth of the driving universe.

Additionally, in some areas (like central Oklahoma) right turns are not always given their own turn lane or signal, so it could lead to confusion if some right turns had a "stop before turning" arrow and some didn't (does it mean I don't have to stop before turning if there's no flashing red arrow?).

That's kind of like saying there's no need to have a special signal for permissive-only left turns, because left turns, when permitted, are always supposed to yield on circular green.  Yet, we do:



If you ask me, it would make sense if we keep the traditional three-lens arrangement and allow right turns on a circular red when there's no right turn lane.  But when there is a right turn lane, take advantage of the opportunity to use a dedicated signal face consisting of [FRA, SYA, SGA], or [SRA, FRA, SYA, SGA] (if right turns on red need to be prohibited at times), or [FRA, SYA, FYA, SGA], or [SRA, FRA, SYA, FYA, SGA].*

If you question the practicality of this idea, I offer you this example.  Wouldn't it be easier to use a [SRA, FRA, SYA, FYA, SGA] signal for the right turn lane here instead of a traditional three-lens signal face accompanied by a big box that lights up when right turns on red are prohibited?  https://goo.gl/maps/XGXChqNhqdrb7t9AA

*If these abbreviations need explanation, S=steady, F=flashing, A=arrow, and R, Y, and G are the colors.

FYAs are not a redundant indication. They exist so that the signal can display FYA (left turn yield) while displaying SRC [steady red circle] (straight-thru traffic stop) at the same time. In the MUTCD figure you cite, they also exist so that a signal can be mounted over the left-turn lane without violating the rule that signals applicable to straight-thru traffic must not be mounted over the left-turn lane.

Basically, there is in fact a need to have a special signal for permissive-only left turns.
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jakeroot

Quote from: stridentweasel on June 29, 2021, 06:21:23 AM
If you question the practicality of this idea, I offer you this example.  Wouldn't it be easier to use a [SRA, FRA, SYA, FYA, SGA] signal for the right turn lane here instead of a traditional three-lens signal face accompanied by a big box that lights up when right turns on red are prohibited?  https://goo.gl/maps/XGXChqNhqdrb7t9AA

I would not be opposed to this, and I can understand the idea. But I would insist that an additional supplemental through signal be installed on the mast-arm where the current blank-out sign is. Having left and right turns using arrows relegates through signals to being only overhead, and this is not particularly ideal.

Possible inspiration may be the style preferred in Denmark; poles are used for most signals, but they use side-by-side signals when one post has to support multiple signal directions (in this case, through + right turn).

jakeroot

Quote from: Henry on June 29, 2021, 07:59:13 PM
Unless all signals are flashing (like testing after initial setup), then I see no need for a flashing red arrow.

The idea, I assume, is to ban turns on red arrows country-wide, replacing them with flashing red arrows instead.

Ned Weasel

#11
Quote from: jakeroot on June 30, 2021, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: Henry on June 29, 2021, 07:59:13 PM
Unless all signals are flashing (like testing after initial setup), then I see no need for a flashing red arrow.

The idea, I assume, is to ban turns on red arrows country-wide, replacing them with flashing red arrows instead.

That, and I'd kind of like to see better nationwide consistency as to when RTORs are allowed, instead of "everywhere except where there's a sign, and except for that one whole city that's larger than many states combined, and except wherever else there might be a law against them that I've never been made aware of."  Of course, the problem with the latter reasoning alone is, if we were to require a flashing red arrow for permissive turns after a full stop, then we'd have to replace a ton of signal faces, perhaps using a four-lens [SRC, FRA, SYC, SGC] for combined straight-through and right-turn lanes, which are really common, so this whole proposition would get really expensive fast--like way more expensive than swapping out circular reds with red arrows for left turn signals.

So, I'm not sure what the best solution is, and maybe the problem doesn't really warrant such a drastic solution.  It sort of occurred to me when I started seeing flashing yellow right arrows being used instead of circular lights accompanied by a "right turn yield to U-turns" sign.

EDIT: Corrected minor error in the last paragraph.
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Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

ran4sh

Quote from: stridentweasel on June 30, 2021, 08:21:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 30, 2021, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: Henry on June 29, 2021, 07:59:13 PM
Unless all signals are flashing (like testing after initial setup), then I see no need for a flashing red arrow.

The idea, I assume, is to ban turns on red arrows country-wide, replacing them with flashing red arrows instead.

That, and I'd kind of like to see better nationwide consistency as to when RTORs are allowed, instead of "everywhere except where there's a sign, and except for that one whole city that's larger than many states combined, and except wherever else there might be a law against them that I've never been made aware of."  Of course, the problem with the latter reasoning alone is, if we were to require a flashing red arrow for permissive turns after a full stop, then we'd have to replace a ton of signal faces, perhaps using a four-lens [SRC, FRA, SYC, SGC] for combined straight-through and right-turn lanes, which are really common, so this whole proposition would get really expensive fast--like way more expensive than swapping out circular reds with red arrows for left turn signals.

So, I'm not sure what the best solution is, and maybe the problem doesn't really warrant such a drastic solution.  It sort of occurred to me when I started seeing flashing yellow right arrows being used instead of a circular green accompanied by a "right turn yield to U-turns" sign.

Is the existing nationwide consistency not good enough? RTOR is permitted in every state due to the federal government basically mandating such in the 70s.

Flashing right turn yellow arrows are used for the reasons you state, but also so that the right turn phasing can be separated from the straight-thru phasing, and/or so that the arrow can turn red for a pedestrian crossing phase. Sometimes it's just as a reminder to yield to pedestrians when turning (in cases when the flashing yellow right phase exactly matches the green straight-thru phase).

(Also, the 2009 MUTCD already bans RTOR on a red arrow, so unless there's some other thing the federal government can do to get states to change their laws, Idk what else would result in nationwide consistency.)
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

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steviep24

Here's a NYSDOT installation of a flashing left turn red arrow at the intersection of NY 104 and Furnace Rd. in Ontario.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.227278,-77.2815715,3a,15y,291.63h,95.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6To7o78OkC2ob10DQOUqGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0

It's the only one in my region that I know of and I do find it useful.

M3100

Here's a left turn flashing red  in Baltimore, MD, at the intersection of MD 170 (Aviation Blvd.) and Amtrak Way, which leads to the BWI Amtrak/MARC station.  There may be others in Maryland, but this is the only one I recall.
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https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1848605,-76.6897449,3a,75y,25.91h,120.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6PNizWbArgLlZRPF4-bs5Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

kphoger

Quote from: ran4sh on June 30, 2021, 06:19:58 PM
FYAs are not a redundant indication. They exist so that the signal can display FYA (left turn yield) while displaying SRC [steady red circle] (straight-thru traffic stop) at the same time. In the MUTCD figure you cite, they also exist so that a signal can be mounted over the left-turn lane without violating the rule that signals applicable to straight-thru traffic must not be mounted over the left-turn lane.

Basically, there is in fact a need to have a special signal for permissive-only left turns.

Indeed.  I recently encountered several FYA left turn signals that illuminated while oncoming traffic had a green ball and green left turn arrow.  That simply cannot be done without the FYA, or at least some other rather creative solution.

I also want to point out that the FYA is a very recent invention, and a lot of people on this forum weren't too keen on them when they first came out.  To say "we have them" is an overly broad statement.
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