How One's Perceptions are Shaped by Where One Lives

[vdeane]

So thinking about the whole I-81 situation in NY, it occurred to me that my perceptions regarding how one should be able to interact with the interstate system have been shaped by where I live - a lot.  I've spent my whole life in upstate NY - a state whose interstate connectivity to the rest of the state is pretty good, to the point where "NY's interstate system" feels like a logical and comprehensive system in and of itself (with only a couple significant gaps, the most notable of which is future I-86), something which isn't the case with many other states.  I also grew up in a part of the Rochester area with very good highway access, to the point where the route to most places was entirely "expressway" as we call freeways here, with the exception of the "last mile" on either end.  And now, living in the Capital District, not only am I still able to do that, I can get to most other parts of the country entirely on interstates/freeways without going out of my way (interstates only, if one makes an exception for the NJ Turnpike), with the only exceptions being Vermont, Rhode Island, and the parts of the country that aren't on the interstate system to begin with.

I'm pretty spoiled in that respect, and it occurred to me that I only really got as dead-set on that mindset when I moved to the Capital District.  In the past, I grew up in Rochester, spent college in Potsdam, had an internship in Sidney, and spent a year in Rome (all in upstate NY), none of which lend themselves to that mindset (most of which doesn't even lend themselves to the mindset regarding local trips on freeways).  The "one should use the freeway system as the backbone of all local trips" mindset was something I had growing up, lost in college, and only regained upon moving to the Capital District.  The "one should use the interstate system as the backbone of all trips" mindset only developed upon moving here (Rochester has always had significant gaps, though they're presently all in PA/MD and won't be NY's problem until the business loop designation in Syracuse).

So how has everyone else's perceptions of how the transportation system should be like been shaped by where you live?

[sprjus4]

I-64 is the only interstate highway out of the Hampton Roads region, which is often heavily congested. And it's only useful when heading to specific destinations. Otherwise, it's all arterial highways for hundreds of miles (except only around 50 miles to I-295 via US-460 and 80 miles to I-95 via US-58) with artificially low 55 mph (ooh, they give you 60 mph on parts of US-58 and a small bit of US-17) limits until reaching an interstate highway / freeway (I-95, I-85, I-295, DE-1, I-77, I-81).

[Roadgeekteen]

True expressways are special to me as they don't really exist in the Northeast.

[Takumi]

I-64 is the only interstate highway out of the Hampton Roads region, which is often heavily congested. And it's only useful when heading to specific destinations. Otherwise, it's all arterial highways for hundreds of miles (except only around 50 miles to I-295 via US-460 and 80 miles to I-95 via US-58) with artificially low 55 mph (ooh, they give you 60 mph on parts of US-58 and a small bit of US-17) limits until reaching an interstate highway / freeway (I-95, I-85, I-295, DE-1, I-77, I-81).

Well, VA 10 is there and is more lightly trafficked, although you run the risk of getting stuck behind a tractor doing 12 MPH in the middle of Surry County and be unable to pass it because of how wide it is. (Speaking from experience here.)

[Max Rockatansky]

Everyone in Michigan thinks that they have the worst roads in the country based off how they were two decades ago.  Nowadays I would argue Michigan isn't even in the bottom third of states with bad highways. 

[Scott5114]

Everyone in Michigan thinks that they have the worst roads in the country based off how they were two decades ago.  Nowadays I would argue Michigan isn't even in the bottom third of states with bad highways. 

Yeah, when I went through Michigan in 2012 I didn't notice any particularly bad road conditions as an outsider.

I think most people tend to think their state's roads are relatively worse than they actually are because of confirmation bias and because they spend more time on local roads finding issues than they do in other states. Or worse, they just assume other states' roads are immaculate because they've never actually been there.

[Brandon]

Everyone in Michigan thinks that they have the worst roads in the country based off how they were two decades ago.  Nowadays I would argue Michigan isn't even in the bottom third of states with bad highways. 

Michiganders have, from what I've seen, very high standards for roads, at least as far as MDOT is concerned.  My relatives ask me how much I like their bad roads, and I have to respond that they're actually pretty good, and that MDOT usually has enough capacity for the traffic they carry (I-94 notwithstanding).  I tell them that this is in contrast to Illinois, where a decent freeway (IDOT) seems to have splitting seams and enough patches to basically repave the freeway piecemeal, as well as a complete lack of capacity.

As for perceptions, I live near Chicago and have been back and forth to Detroit very often (well enough to know both cities well). I view IDOT as very insular and fairly unwilling to try new ideas for better traffic flow as compared to MDOT.  IDOT could very well use the Michigan Left in several places around the area - IL-59, IL83, IL-56, IL-64, and 75th Street (DuPage County), but instead, sticks to an older model of left turn signals.  IDOT could add capacity, as ISTHA has.  In fact, I often wonder why IDOT doesn't just learn from ISHTA and follow them.  Somehow, ISHTA can build a smooth road and have flowing traffic that seems to elude IDOT.  But, the main problem I see here is a lack of planing for the future.  Everything is for the moment, and everyone asks "where's mine?" instead of planning ahead and even working together as a region.

[Great Lakes Roads]

INDOT's plan on adding J-Turns on US 30 and 31 corridors was a band-aid approach to making those roads an expressway, but no, the people who drive or live on those corridors want a freeway upgrade that INDOT doesn't have the money to do since it would cost $1 billion+ to upgrade.

[achilles765]

Growing up we only had mostly rural two lane roads. The interstate was fancy and went to long distance places. And had exit ramps  that dropped you at either a traffic light or stop sign. That was my worldview for a long time. There was one full cloverleaf in my area at I 55 and US 98 and that was a big deal to everyone. The one at I 55 and I 12 was a bottleneck but seemed perfectly acceptable.
Even after I went to LSU, I was used to standard diamond interchanges, the occasional cloverleaf at major routes, and anything different was unusual and intriguing. The stacks at I 110 and US 61/US 190, I 310 and US 61, all of the exits on I 310, everything in downtown Br and Nola, especially left exits were just mind blowing.
Now, after living in driving in Texas for so long, I definitely see how my perspective on things have changed. The very few times I've had to leave the state to go back to Louisiana or Mississippi, I think about or comment about how weird it is to not see frontage roads, and to have exit ramps that aren't easy slip ramps off and on. I find it odd when in a city and the US highway is 2 or 4 lanes with tons of traffic lights and not either a full freeway or at least partially controlled expressway. And that there are fewer freeways in the bigger cities. That there are only like 2 state highways that are freeways, or that there's only one type or state highway. Like in Louisiana there are tons or numbered state highways that wouldn't be in many other states. But in Mississippi there are so few state highways. Some of the roads where I grew up would be FM roads in Texas. Or loops or spurs.
It's also odd to see major interchanges with diamonds or parclos. And especially to not see at least a partial stack at every freeway-freeway junction. Or even just one direct connector.

Example: if Baton Rouge were in Texas, US 61 would be a freeway. Probably all the way to New Orleans, US 190 probably would be too, or would be like US 90 Alternate. There would be a full loop, or at least one to the north. It might be a full 410 loop, or a state highway loop, possibly with some freeway and some non freeway sections like Loop 1604 in San Antonio. There'd be an I 10 bridge, a US 190 bridge, a bridge to the south, toll express lanes on I 12, and probably I 10 from LSU to Gonzales, and LA 1 would be a toll road from port Allen to Donaldsonville. There'd be a full stack at every major junction, including I 12 and I 55, and several more exits in denham springs and walker.

[achilles765]

Everyone in Michigan thinks that they have the worst roads in the country based off how they were two decades ago.  Nowadays I would argue Michigan isn't even in the bottom third of states with bad highways. 

I used to think the same thing about Louisiana's roads, especially interstates and major US highways. I remember when I 55 was in atrocious shape, and everywhere that needed at least three lanes each direction on I 10 and I 12 had only two and were always thick and full of slowdowns and bottlenecks. Especially after moving to Texas, when I went back for any reason I still thought this.

Now, having been through recently, I was impressed at how much its improved. Six lanes practically from the Texas state line to Kinder on I 10, finally widened to six lanes from 10-12 split to prairieville, I 12 has six lanes almost all the way to Livingston. And I 55 has been repaved and redone and is in much better shape. They've repaired and repaved alot  of I 10 and I 12 too.

[Ned Weasel]

True expressways are special to me as they don't really exist in the Northeast.

What?  New Jersey and Pennsylvania have tons of them.

[Roadgeekteen]

True expressways are special to me as they don't really exist in the Northeast.

What?  New Jersey and Pennsylvania have tons of them.

I guess I meant New England.

[Max Rockatansky]

Everyone in Michigan thinks that they have the worst roads in the country based off how they were two decades ago.  Nowadays I would argue Michigan isn't even in the bottom third of states with bad highways. 

Yeah, when I went through Michigan in 2012 I didn't notice any particularly bad road conditions as an outsider.

I think most people tend to think their state's roads are relatively worse than they actually are because of confirmation bias and because they spend more time on local roads finding issues than they do in other states. Or worse, they just assume other states' roads are immaculate because they've never actually been there.

Don't get me wrong there definitely is a reason the "Pure Potholes"  meme took root in the first place.  But after that happened the state took fixing it's major roads very seriously and the meme doesn't really fit anymore.  The surface highway designs in Michigan I would argue are often among the best in the country. 

[KCRoadFan]

Because of where I have lived in Missouri (first Columbia and now Kansas City), I've often thought of St. Louis as being the Gateway to the East rather than the Gateway to the West - for the simple reason that whenever we headed on trips out east from where we were, getting to our destination necessarily involved going through the St. Louis area in some fashion.

In addition, I've always thought that St. Louis has a stronger cultural and architectural connection with historic East Coast cities such as Boston and Philadelphia (such as, for example, a greater proportion of brick houses) than do most Midwestern cities of comparable size - no doubt because St. Louis is one of the oldest cities in its part of the country.

[Scott5114]

Because of where I have lived in Missouri (first Columbia and now Kansas City), I've often thought of St. Louis as being the Gateway to the East rather than the Gateway to the West - for the simple reason that whenever we headed on trips out east from where we were, getting to our destination necessarily involved going through the St. Louis area in some fashion.

In addition, I've always thought that St. Louis has a stronger cultural and architectural connection with historic East Coast cities such as Boston and Philadelphia (such as, for example, a greater proportion of brick houses) than do most Midwestern cities of comparable size - no doubt because St. Louis is one of the oldest cities in its part of the country.

I remember reading somewhere that St Louis is the westernmost Eastern city and Kansas City is the easternmost Western city. I think I might dispute the specifics there a little bit (Chicago feels a lot more like Kansas City than it does St Louis) but I can definitely see where that's coming from.

[thspfc]

I didn't know that the vast majority of the country uses numbered, not lettered, county routes until like 5 years ago.

Due to Wisconsin's tendency to build many stack interchanges and avoid cloverleafs I'm always surprised to see how few stack interchanges and how many cloverleafs there are in cities that are larger than any we have in WI. Chicago and Minneapolis/St. Paul most notably.

I can't imagine what a Texas native thinks about other states' freeway interchanges when they see them for the first time.

[Scott5114]

I didn't know that the vast majority of the country uses numbered, not lettered, county routes until like 5 years ago.

Hell, as an Oklahoman, county routes in general are an entirely foreign concept. Even in the adjoining states, there's only a few counties that use them.

[JayhawkCO]

Perceptions as a kid

I grew up in the rural exurbs of the Twin Cities on a dirt road, so I figured most places had dirt roads just outside of town.

I thought suffixed interstates were in every big city.

I thought interstates were the only roads you would take to get to another state unless where you were going was right near the border.

Perceptions as an adult in Colorado

States like Louisiana and Kentucky are super odd to me that have state highways every six feet or so, since Colorado doesn't have a ton of state highways that don't connect different towns.

It's weird to have major cities that aren't connected by interstate, as pretty much everything in Colorado is (largest town not within 15-20 miles of an interstate is Montrose, population 20K).

Toll roads are dumb, since E-470 and the Northwest Parkway serve a very niche market here.

Chris

[SkyPesos]

It's weird to have major cities that aren't connected by interstate, as pretty much everything in Colorado is (largest town not within 15-20 miles of an interstate is Montrose, population 20K).

You'll love Ohio's system then. No interstate between Columbus and Toledo, the first and fourth largest cities in the state.

[JayhawkCO]

It's weird to have major cities that aren't connected by interstate, as pretty much everything in Colorado is (largest town not within 15-20 miles of an interstate is Montrose, population 20K).

You'll love Ohio's system then. No interstate between Columbus and Toledo, the first and fourth largest cities in the state.

They're still on the system though.  Colorado Springs and Grand Junction aren't connected by one interstate, but you can get there the quickest way via interstate.  I was thinking more the Nashua, NH; Lynchburg, VA; Fresno, CA; Bend, OR's of the world.

Chris

[SkyPesos]

It's weird to have major cities that aren't connected by interstate, as pretty much everything in Colorado is (largest town not within 15-20 miles of an interstate is Montrose, population 20K).

You'll love Ohio's system then. No interstate between Columbus and Toledo, the first and fourth largest cities in the state.

They're still on the system though.  Colorado Springs and Grand Junction aren't connected by one interstate, but you can get there the quickest way via interstate.  I was thinking more the Nashua, NH; Lynchburg, VA; Fresno, CA; Bend, OR's of the world.

Chris

I get it. So something like Bloomington, IN before I-69.

[Roadgeekteen]

Colorado has tons of areas off the interstate.

[SEWIGuy]

Colorado has tons of areas off the interstate.

Colorado's top ten cities are all on the interstate system. 

[Roadgeekteen]

Colorado has tons of areas off the interstate.

Colorado's top ten cities are all on the interstate system.

True, but a lot of the Southwest part of the state there are no interstates for hundreds of miles.

[thspfc]

Milwaukee and Chicago are the big cities that I go to the most. Both those cities have long stretches of suburbia along their main freeway approach from the west (about 30 miles for Milwaukee along I-94, and about 45 miles for Chicago along I-90). This is due to the fact that west is one of the only directions those metro areas can continue to sprawl, as they have Lake Michigan to the east and all of the land between the two cities is pretty much developed. For that reason I thought that all major cities have similarly long stretches of suburbs, but that's not the case.