North Carolina

[The Nature Boy]

North Carolina seems to think that interstate shields yield magical economic development powers. Putting a 3di sign on US 264 isn't going to grow Greenville at all.

[CanesFan27]

North Carolina seems to think that interstate shields yield magical economic development powers. Putting a 3di sign on US 264 isn't going to grow Greenville at all.

Studies are mixed - Greenville has a number of economic drivers in place and has been growing in pharma manufacturing. I'd have to go back to prior posts for the links but basically it can be summed up as an Interstate designation can help if the local areas have the economic infrastructure and programs in place.

[LM117]

North Carolina seems to think that interstate shields yield magical economic development powers. Putting a 3di sign on US 264 isn't going to grow Greenville at all.

Here's their reasoning: http://www.reflector.com/News/2016/09/27/Interstate-talks-shift-into-fast-lane.html

Roger Johnson, Greenville's economic development manager, said U.S. 264 already is within 90 percent of interstate specifications.

"The roads almost are built to interstate standards,"  Johnson said. "There are sections where some lanes will need to be widened, but U.S. 264 almost meets the federal standards now."

Greenville is the 10th-largest city in North Carolina and the largest city in the state without an interstate highway. Receiving the interstate designation will help Greenville recruit new business and industries to the area, Johnson said.

"When a company is looking for potential sites to locate, one of the most important factors is interstate accessibility,"  Johnson said. "Cities that don't have an interstate often are crossed off the list immediately. This puts us back on those lists and allows us to compete for these jobs and industries.

"Those of us that live in the area know that U.S. 264 has good roads and that you can travel 70 mph on most of it,"  Johnson said. "However, these businesses all over the country don't know that. This designation now will let them know that we have the infrastructure they require."

What I find surprising is that there has been no noise whatsoever from Wilson (city or county) about the possibility of US-264 becoming I-587, given the city's excellent location compared to that of Greenville.

[sparker]

What I find surprising is that there has been no noise whatsoever from Wilson (city or county) about the possibility of US-264 becoming I-587, given the city's excellent location compared to that of Greenville.

It's probably because they already have 2 Interstate routes intersecting in the immediate area (95, 795); another 3di wouldn't be much enhancement for a mid-sized city already well-served by the red, white & blue shields.  If US 264 would have warranted a 2di (say 46 or 48), Wilson's level of interest might have risen to the raising of a few eyebrows. 

[The Nature Boy]

North Carolina seems to think that interstate shields yield magical economic development powers. Putting a 3di sign on US 264 isn't going to grow Greenville at all.

Here's their reasoning: http://www.reflector.com/News/2016/09/27/Interstate-talks-shift-into-fast-lane.html

Roger Johnson, Greenville's economic development manager, said U.S. 264 already is within 90 percent of interstate specifications.

"The roads almost are built to interstate standards,"  Johnson said. "There are sections where some lanes will need to be widened, but U.S. 264 almost meets the federal standards now."

Greenville is the 10th-largest city in North Carolina and the largest city in the state without an interstate highway. Receiving the interstate designation will help Greenville recruit new business and industries to the area, Johnson said.

"When a company is looking for potential sites to locate, one of the most important factors is interstate accessibility,"  Johnson said. "Cities that don't have an interstate often are crossed off the list immediately. This puts us back on those lists and allows us to compete for these jobs and industries.

"Those of us that live in the area know that U.S. 264 has good roads and that you can travel 70 mph on most of it,"  Johnson said. "However, these businesses all over the country don't know that. This designation now will let them know that we have the infrastructure they require."

What I find surprising is that there has been no noise whatsoever from Wilson (city or county) about the possibility of US-264 becoming I-587, given the city's excellent location compared to that of Greenville.

That sounds like they're grasping at straws. I really don't think that anyone who is looking to expand into North Carolina wouldn't already be doing research into the state's highways and how accessible they are.

[orulz]

You'd be surprised, I think. CEOs like bullet lists on powerpoints, and when considering a location for a factory or distribution center or whatever:
"1/4 mile from onramp to Interstate Highway"
makes for a much better bullet point than
"1/4 mile from onramp to US highway that is almost Interstate Quality".

For the first, absolutely no followup questions or clarification is necessary whatsoever. Everybody knows what an interstate highway is.
For the second, you have to ask "OK, so why is this highway not an interstate, is it really good enough for us?"

[CanesFan27]

You'd be surprised, I think. CEOs like bullet lists on powerpoints, and when considering a location for a factory or distribution center or whatever:
"1/4 mile from onramp to Interstate Highway"
makes for a much better bullet point than
"1/4 mile from onramp to US highway that is almost Interstate Quality".

For the first, absolutely no followup questions or clarification is necessary whatsoever. Everybody knows what an interstate highway is.
For the second, you have to ask "OK, so why is this highway not an interstate, is it really good enough for us?"

100% correct. +

[hbelkins]

You'd be surprised, I think. CEOs like bullet lists on powerpoints, and when considering a location for a factory or distribution center or whatever:
"1/4 mile from onramp to Interstate Highway"
makes for a much better bullet point than
"1/4 mile from onramp to US highway that is almost Interstate Quality".

For the first, absolutely no followup questions or clarification is necessary whatsoever. Everybody knows what an interstate highway is.
For the second, you have to ask "OK, so why is this highway not an interstate, is it really good enough for us?"

100% correct. +

The point I frequently make about Kentucky's parkway system.

Fixed quote. - rmf67

[froggie]

"1/4 mile from freeway onramp to Interstate Highway"

Basically fits the same bill.  Fundamentally the same...only difference is your Interstate branding.  But those who have half a clue will realize that you don't need to be right on an Interstate, and may actually find lower land costs away from the Interstate.

[vdeane]

I would think they would care more about whether a route is a freeway or not rather than whether it's an interstate, US route, or state route.  There are many interstates that don't meet interstate standards, especially modern interstate standards (heck, I'd bet that most interstates in NY, PA, and some other places in the northeast have at least one substandard section).

Granted, everyone around here refers to everything as "Route X" (though Albany at least knows what an interstate is, though the media and local officials tend to misidentify NY 787 as I-787; moving here was the first time in my life I've heard anyone other than a roadgeek or a DOT employee use the word!).  Apparently in other places they don't do that.

[orulz]

Honestly I don't see the argument against an interstate designation here. How does it somehow dilute the notion of interstates to have a 3di run to a rapidly growing city of 90,000 that is home to a large, major university? I am in favor of a policy wherein if a road meets the standards and goes sonewhere, then designate it. If it almost meets the standard or is substantially completed, give it a future designation. An interstate designation is not a commitment to federally fund construction or maintenance so I just don't understand the reluctance.

LGL44VL

[froggie]

Not quite true.  A Future designation, by the books, requires a commitment to fund completion of construction within 25 years**.  Given the sorry state of Federal highway funding and the lack of desire for most states to commit their own state funding, it's unlikely that, even in North Carolina, many of these Future Interstate proposals would see completion within that timeframe.

** - There are a few exceptions, namely those Future Interstates specifically designated by Federal law.  But again, with that you're introducing Federal politics into what's really a local or regional issue.  Most of these were also designated back when Federal pork ruled the day.

[orulz]

NC has one of the highest gas taxes in the country. For better or worse, this is what that money goes towards: lots of high quality roads to secondary and tertiary cities, mostly for economic development. It's not unrealistic, in my opinion, that NC will get US 264's shoulders up to snuff within 25 years.

LGL44VL

[LM117]

It's not unrealistic, in my opinion, that NC will get US 264's shoulders up to snuff within 25 years.

Agreed. However, US-264 will need more work than shoulder widening between Sims and Zebulon since that's an older section of freeway. Bridge clearances will need to be increased and it's possible that some ramps may need lengthened, though they didn't seem all that substandard, if any.

I honestly don't see any legit reason that US-264 shouldn't become I-587. All I've seen is the same ol' "NC has enough interstates!" argument. It's not like NCDOT is wanting to build a new interstate that has little chance of reaching it's intended destination (ex: I-73). The highway is already built and has two cities along the corridor, one of them having a population of over 90,000. If anything, assuming I-587 ultimately gets approved whether by FHWA or Congress, I-587 will probably be completed long before I-42 & I-87.

Do I think upgrading US-264 should take priority over every other project in the state? No, but I think it would make a logical addition to the Interstate system.

[CanesFan27]

I would think they would care more about whether a route is a freeway or not rather than whether it's an interstate, US route, or state route.  There are many interstates that don't meet interstate standards, especially modern interstate standards (heck, I'd bet that most interstates in NY, PA, and some other places in the northeast have at least one substandard section).

Granted, everyone around here refers to everything as "Route X" (though Albany at least knows what an interstate is, though the media and local officials tend to misidentify NY 787 as I-787; moving here was the first time in my life I've heard anyone other than a roadgeek or a DOT employee use the word!).  Apparently in other places they don't do that.

The key is the Interstate system is pretty much interconnected. Knowing that a warehouse, distribution center, or production facility is within x distance from an Interstate allows for the key decision makers to know that they can access the entire country by an Interstate connection.

Yes there are plenty of companies where that is not a needed criteria - but when choosing sites connectivity to various modes of transportation and networks are important and sometimes a determining factor.

[LM117]

An official groundbreaking is being held this morning for the Greenville Southwest Bypass. It will be signed as NC-11 when finished. The current NC-11 that will be bypassed will become Business NC-11. The bypass will be built to interstate standards.

http://www.reflector.com/News/2016/11/04/Officials-mark-work-on-Southwest-Bypass.html

State and local officials will gather today at the starting point of the future Southwest Bypass for a groundbreaking ceremony.

N.C. Department of Transportation Secretary Nick Tennyson, Transportation Board Members Ferrell Blount and Hugh Overholt and Greenville Mayor Allen Thomas are hosting the event at 11 a.m. It will be at the southwest corner of the intersection of U.S. 264 and Stantonsburg Road.

The planned four-lane freeway will continue south from the site for 12.6 miles until it merges with N.C. 11 two miles south of Ayden on N.C. 11. It will wrap around the west side of Greenville, Winterville and Ayden. Work on the highway has begun and it is scheduled to be completed by June 2019.

Officials say it will relieve congestion and improve safety in Greenville, especially on Memorial Drive and Stantonsburg Road, and boost the economy by improving travel time along the U.S. 264/N.C. 11 corridor.

The highway's speed limit will be up to 70 mph. Officials said its five interchanges are expected to spur commercial and residential development.

The project's estimated cost is $238 million.

On a related note, this bypass will become part of a future interstate that will run between Kinston and Bethel if the Eastern NC Gateway Act passes Congress.

[The Nature Boy]

It's not unrealistic, in my opinion, that NC will get US 264's shoulders up to snuff within 25 years.

Agreed. However, US-264 will need more work than shoulder widening between Sims and Zebulon since that's an older section of freeway. Bridge clearances will need to be increased and it's possible that some ramps may need lengthened, though they didn't seem all that substandard, if any.

I honestly don't see any legit reason that US-264 shouldn't become I-587. All I've seen is the same ol' "NC has enough interstates!" argument. It's not like NCDOT is wanting to build a new interstate that has little chance of reaching it's intended destination (ex: I-73). The highway is already built and has two cities along the corridor, one of them having a population of over 90,000. If anything, assuming I-587 ultimately gets approved whether by FHWA or Congress, I-587 will probably be completed long before I-42 & I-87.

Do I think upgrading US-264 should take priority over every other project in the state? No, but I think it would make a logical addition to the Interstate system.

I have nothing against adding US 264 to the interstate system, I do have something against politicians getting support for these projects by screaming "THIS IS GOING TO HELP ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT!"

[wdcrft63]

I have nothing against adding US 264 to the interstate system, I do have something against politicians getting support for these projects by screaming "THIS IS GOING TO HELP ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT!"

Not too surprising that the politicians are out in force; the Governor is up for re-election on Tuesday. (Not meant as a political statement, please don't answer politically.)

[bob7374]

An official groundbreaking is being held this morning for the Greenville Southwest Bypass. It will be signed as NC-11 when finished. The current NC-11 that will be bypassed will become Business NC-11. The bypass will be built to interstate standards.

http://www.reflector.com/News/2016/11/04/Officials-mark-work-on-Southwest-Bypass.html

State and local officials will gather today at the starting point of the future Southwest Bypass for a groundbreaking ceremony.

N.C. Department of Transportation Secretary Nick Tennyson, Transportation Board Members Ferrell Blount and Hugh Overholt and Greenville Mayor Allen Thomas are hosting the event at 11 a.m. It will be at the southwest corner of the intersection of U.S. 264 and Stantonsburg Road.

The planned four-lane freeway will continue south from the site for 12.6 miles until it merges with N.C. 11 two miles south of Ayden on N.C. 11. It will wrap around the west side of Greenville, Winterville and Ayden. Work on the highway has begun and it is scheduled to be completed by June 2019.

Officials say it will relieve congestion and improve safety in Greenville, especially on Memorial Drive and Stantonsburg Road, and boost the economy by improving travel time along the U.S. 264/N.C. 11 corridor.

The highway's speed limit will be up to 70 mph. Officials said its five interchanges are expected to spur commercial and residential development.

The project's estimated cost is $238 million.

On a related note, this bypass will become part of a future interstate that will run between Kinston and Bethel if the Eastern NC Gateway Act passes Congress.

Here's a link to the official NCDOT press release, notice they also mention the US 264 interstate proposal (and that they still are awaiting that AASHTO decision...)
https://apps.ncdot.gov/NewsReleases/details.aspx?r=13239

[LM117]

An official groundbreaking is being held this morning for the Greenville Southwest Bypass. It will be signed as NC-11 when finished. The current NC-11 that will be bypassed will become Business NC-11. The bypass will be built to interstate standards.

http://www.reflector.com/News/2016/11/04/Officials-mark-work-on-Southwest-Bypass.html

State and local officials will gather today at the starting point of the future Southwest Bypass for a groundbreaking ceremony.

N.C. Department of Transportation Secretary Nick Tennyson, Transportation Board Members Ferrell Blount and Hugh Overholt and Greenville Mayor Allen Thomas are hosting the event at 11 a.m. It will be at the southwest corner of the intersection of U.S. 264 and Stantonsburg Road.

The planned four-lane freeway will continue south from the site for 12.6 miles until it merges with N.C. 11 two miles south of Ayden on N.C. 11. It will wrap around the west side of Greenville, Winterville and Ayden. Work on the highway has begun and it is scheduled to be completed by June 2019.

Officials say it will relieve congestion and improve safety in Greenville, especially on Memorial Drive and Stantonsburg Road, and boost the economy by improving travel time along the U.S. 264/N.C. 11 corridor.

The highway's speed limit will be up to 70 mph. Officials said its five interchanges are expected to spur commercial and residential development.

The project's estimated cost is $238 million.

On a related note, this bypass will become part of a future interstate that will run between Kinston and Bethel if the Eastern NC Gateway Act passes Congress.

Here's a link to the official NCDOT press release, notice they also mention the US 264 interstate proposal (and that they still are awaiting that AASHTO decision...)
https://apps.ncdot.gov/NewsReleases/details.aspx?r=13239

I wonder what the odds are of AASHTO's SCOH overturning USRN Committee's initial vote once they see how absurd USRN's reasons for denial are. Since an application for Future I-587 has already been sent to FHWA, I'm fairly certain NCDOT has been in close contact with FHWA.

It's been mentioned before that US-264 being mostly substandard is what initially raised AASHTO's eyebrows, but I thought that was the point of seeking "Future I-587" and not "I-587".

[froggie]

It's been mentioned before that US-264 being mostly substandard is what initially raised AASHTO's eyebrows, but I thought that was the point of seeking "Future I-587" and not "I-587".

If this is the case, and since NCDOT did not go the Congressional route, they would also need to submit a plan for how they will bring 264 up to Interstate standard within 25 years.  If they did not submit such a plan, that is also grounds for denial.

[LM117]

It's been mentioned before that US-264 being mostly substandard is what initially raised AASHTO's eyebrows, but I thought that was the point of seeking "Future I-587" and not "I-587".

If this is the case, and since NCDOT did not go the Congressional route, they would also need to submit a plan for how they will bring 264 up to Interstate standard within 25 years.  If they did not submit such a plan, that is also grounds for denial.

It shouldn't be too difficult to pull off, given that the most substandard issue on US-264 (other than the obvious lack of 10ft. outside shoulders) is the low bridge clearances between Sims and Zebulon.

[froggie]

It may seem easy, but the point is that NCDOT needs to have a plan in place if they want FHWA to sign off on an Interstate.

[CanesFan27]

It may seem easy, but the point is that NCDOT needs to have a plan in place if they want FHWA to sign off on an Interstate.

Which they already have begun with having 264 from Wilson to Greenville on the STIP.

[wdcrft63]

NCDOT is planning to convert a section of US 70 east of Durham to a freeway. As described in this piece from the Durham Herald Sun, the proposed project extends eastward from the Future I-885 now under construction, but the conversion would end west of T.W. Alexander Drive. This means it would not reach I-540; there are stoplights at Alexander Drive and at Brier Creek just west of I-540.
http://www.heraldsun.com/news/future-freeway-project-steers-county-discussions/article_424fbeb2-a542-11e6-ada4-abd55644202c.html