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Author Topic: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway  (Read 12095 times)

MarkF

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CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« on: September 20, 2018, 08:57:06 PM »

A sort of a southern segment has been added from the south end of CA 241 at Oso Pkwy, Los Patrones Parkway.

https://www.ocregister.com/2018/09/11/first-segment-of-los-patrones-parkway-will-open-wednesday-sept-12/

This will eventually connect CA 241 at Oso nearly to CA 74 east of San Juan Capistrano. It will go to Cow Camp Rd in the Rancho Viejo development, which parallels CA 74/Ortega Hwy. Currently an overpass for Oso at CA 241 is being built for a direct connection from CA 241 to Los Patrones Parkway.

Also, last year a new connector opened between CA 74 at Antonio in SJC and Ave Pico in San Clemente, Ave La Pata.  This is built like a freeway for a couple of miles.
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theroadwayone

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2018, 02:36:47 AM »

[inserts comment before everyone comes in to bash the whole thing]
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MarkF

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2018, 12:45:31 AM »

I drove the route today, here's a video of it:


It's built as a freeway, with a bike lane on one side, but you can see the standards are lower than in the CA 241 part.
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sparker

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2018, 02:35:36 AM »

^^^^^^^
Except for the bike path, the 4-lane divided section doesn't appear to be much different physically than that of CA 241's gradient between the CA 133 and CA 261 interchanges.  It's almost like this parkway is the functional equivalent of the proverbial "camel's nose through the tent flap" in terms of a 241 extension -- an incremental ROW "placeholder" for a future renewed effort toward a full limited-access facility.  If any extension paralleling La Pata south of CA 74 is proposed down the line, the writing may then be on the wall regarding "Round 2" of the 241 saga; I'd take an educated guess that some factions within OCTA haven't quite given up on at least some variant of the original concept.   
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skluth

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2018, 06:39:20 PM »

Are there plans to build this further south from Cow Camp Road? It would be especially helpful if it connected at that end to I-5. This extension by itself seems a pretty big waste of money and the environment for little in return other than a few people avoid a couple miles of back roads.
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theroadwayone

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2018, 07:07:14 PM »

Are there plans to build this further south from Cow Camp Road? It would be especially helpful if it connected at that end to I-5. This extension by itself seems a pretty big waste of money and the environment for little in return other than a few people avoid a couple miles of back roads.

One of the alternatives was building it along Christianitos Road, which I liked because it followed the original plan, mas o menos. They should have gone with that, along with building a spur to I-15 near Temecula.
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sparker

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2018, 02:39:34 AM »

Are there plans to build this further south from Cow Camp Road? It would be especially helpful if it connected at that end to I-5. This extension by itself seems a pretty big waste of money and the environment for little in return other than a few people avoid a couple miles of back roads.

One of the alternatives was building it along Christianitos Road, which I liked because it followed the original plan, mas o menos. They should have gone with that, along with building a spur to I-15 near Temecula.

The parallel Antonio Parkway, which has been there since the late '90's, is hardly a "back road"; it's an arterial almost to expressway standards.  Either there's some substantial new development in the works around the area where Los Patrones is intended to intersect CA 74 -- which in O.C. historically would on its own prompt some sort of functional extension of the 241 corridor (in South County the developer has always come first!) or my suspicions about OCTA trying to sneak such an extension farther and farther south until lo and behold, the original concept is fulfilled for at least most of its original distance. 

Getting a spur to Temecula (or Fallbrook for that matter!) might be a tall order; it'd have to circle around the north and east side of Camp Pendleton, an area that's the poster child for "rugged", besides surmounting a ridge that's close to 5K in elevation at its lowest point; such an extension -- besides extending into another county (Riverside and/or San Diego) which may not welcome another traffic source -- certainly wouldn't come cheap, which is likely reasons #1-50 why such an extension hasn't been seriously explored to date.   
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MarkF

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2018, 04:05:17 AM »

Are there plans to build this further south from Cow Camp Road? It would be especially helpful if it connected at that end to I-5. This extension by itself seems a pretty big waste of money and the environment for little in return other than a few people avoid a couple miles of back roads.

One of the alternatives was building it along Christianitos Road, which I liked because it followed the original plan, mas o menos. They should have gone with that, along with building a spur to I-15 near Temecula.

The parallel Antonio Parkway, which has been there since the late '90's, is hardly a "back road"; it's an arterial almost to expressway standards.  Either there's some substantial new development in the works around the area where Los Patrones is intended to intersect CA 74...

Cow Camp Road will be one of the main streets in Rancho Mission Viejo, which is planned for around 14000 homes. 
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skluth

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2018, 03:58:46 PM »

Are there plans to build this further south from Cow Camp Road? It would be especially helpful if it connected at that end to I-5. This extension by itself seems a pretty big waste of money and the environment for little in return other than a few people avoid a couple miles of back roads.

One of the alternatives was building it along Christianitos Road, which I liked because it followed the original plan, mas o menos. They should have gone with that, along with building a spur to I-15 near Temecula.

The parallel Antonio Parkway, which has been there since the late '90's, is hardly a "back road"; it's an arterial almost to expressway standards.  Either there's some substantial new development in the works around the area where Los Patrones is intended to intersect CA 74 -- which in O.C. historically would on its own prompt some sort of functional extension of the 241 corridor (in South County the developer has always come first!) or my suspicions about OCTA trying to sneak such an extension farther and farther south until lo and behold, the original concept is fulfilled for at least most of its original distance. 

Getting a spur to Temecula (or Fallbrook for that matter!) might be a tall order; it'd have to circle around the north and east side of Camp Pendleton, an area that's the poster child for "rugged", besides surmounting a ridge that's close to 5K in elevation at its lowest point; such an extension -- besides extending into another county (Riverside and/or San Diego) which may not welcome another traffic source -- certainly wouldn't come cheap, which is likely reasons #1-50 why such an extension hasn't been seriously explored to date.

From your description, it seems the roads there are more than adequate for current and likely future traffic. Seems a waste of money when there are so many needed fixes elsewhere, even in Orange County. I don't see the point of this extension unless, as you also state, the long term plan is to build it further and further south (and preferably reaching I-5 at some point).
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theroadwayone

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2018, 09:18:05 PM »

Are there plans to build this further south from Cow Camp Road? It would be especially helpful if it connected at that end to I-5. This extension by itself seems a pretty big waste of money and the environment for little in return other than a few people avoid a couple miles of back roads.

One of the alternatives was building it along Christianitos Road, which I liked because it followed the original plan, mas o menos. They should have gone with that, along with building a spur to I-15 near Temecula.

The parallel Antonio Parkway, which has been there since the late '90's, is hardly a "back road"; it's an arterial almost to expressway standards.  Either there's some substantial new development in the works around the area where Los Patrones is intended to intersect CA 74 -- which in O.C. historically would on its own prompt some sort of functional extension of the 241 corridor (in South County the developer has always come first!) or my suspicions about OCTA trying to sneak such an extension farther and farther south until lo and behold, the original concept is fulfilled for at least most of its original distance. 

Getting a spur to Temecula (or Fallbrook for that matter!) might be a tall order; it'd have to circle around the north and east side of Camp Pendleton, an area that's the poster child for "rugged", besides surmounting a ridge that's close to 5K in elevation at its lowest point; such an extension -- besides extending into another county (Riverside and/or San Diego) which may not welcome another traffic source -- certainly wouldn't come cheap, which is likely reasons #1-50 why such an extension hasn't been seriously explored to date.
To be honest, building a southeastern spur would be, though not impossible, difficult and unlikely. If it were to happen, I'd write it in for the title of Engineering Feat of the Century, no, the Millenium, if such an award exists.

That being said, even completing the 241 is going to be a challenge in and of itself. I've been a supporter of the whole thing for years, but I see things getting harder before getting easier. I'm also going to include the exit list for the south segment--if built as planned--in my Fictional Exit Lists thread.
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sparker

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2018, 09:50:58 PM »

To be honest, building a southeastern spur would be, though not impossible, difficult and unlikely. If it were to happen, I'd write it in for the title of Engineering Feat of the Century, no, the Millenium, if such an award exists.

There's a damn good reason why the only road to penetrate the Cleveland Nat'l Forest is CA 74, and it's a pain in the ass to drive.  That whole ridgeline falls away to steep NE-SW canyons on the west side and to sheer cliffs on the east (Lake Elsinore/Temecula) side.  Way back when, Santa Fe actually had a secondary line down to San Diego; parts of it still exist as the Perris/Hemet line, which parallels I-215 and CA 74.  It originally snaked down a canyon to Lake Elsinore, then shot south parallel to today's I-15 to Temecula, then snaked down yet another canyon through what is now Camp Pendleton, joining the coastal line just north of Oceanside (the spur is still there as a service line into the Marine base).  Both canyon alignments were wiped out by flooding and fully severed by the mid-'30's.  Between fire & flood, those coastal mountains are treacherous! 
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MarkF

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2019, 01:26:32 AM »

The second segment of Los Patrones Parkway opened a couple of weeks ago, I haven't driven it yet:

https://www.ocregister.com/2019/10/18/second-segment-of-los-patrones-parkway-opens-in-rancho-mission-viejo/
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sparker

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2019, 02:30:05 AM »

The picture depicts a facility not significantly different from the CA 241 toll road to the north.  As I opined earlier, Los Patrones, despite exhortations to the contrary, may well be a placeholder for an eventual 241 extension southward.  As the old adage goes:  if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is, for all intents and purposes -- or may well be -- a duck! At least it's a ROW if not up to full freeway (or tollway) standards.

It wouldn't at all surprise me if OCTA emulates Clark County, NV and erects "pentagon" signage along Los Patrones as County 241!   
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don1991

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2019, 12:57:34 AM »

The picture depicts a facility not significantly different from the CA 241 toll road to the north.  As I opined earlier, Los Patrones, despite exhortations to the contrary, may well be a placeholder for an eventual 241 extension southward.  As the old adage goes:  if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is, for all intents and purposes -- or may well be -- a duck! At least it's a ROW if not up to full freeway (or tollway) standards.

It wouldn't at all surprise me if OCTA emulates Clark County, NV and erects "pentagon" signage along Los Patrones as County 241!

Los Patrones "Parkway" is built to full freeway standards.  The "bike lane" is actually a Class I bike path separated by fencing off to the side.  This is a full controlled access facility.  The only differences to the 241 are:  1)  It is free of tolls; 2)  Maintained by Orange County (not the state); 3)  The median and overall footprint is much more narrow than the 241.

The irony here is that this roadway was allowed while the Water Board denied a permit to the Tesoro Extension.  This was never about water quality.  It was about denying the TCA an easy way to finish the 241 to the 5.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 03:59:00 PM by don1991 »
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sparker

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2019, 01:04:12 PM »

The picture depicts a facility not significantly different from the CA 241 toll road to the north.  As I opined earlier, Los Patrones, despite exhortations to the contrary, may well be a placeholder for an eventual 241 extension southward.  As the old adage goes:  if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is, for all intents and purposes -- or may well be -- a duck! At least it's a ROW if not up to full freeway (or tollway) standards.

It wouldn't at all surprise me if OCTA emulates Clark County, NV and erects "pentagon" signage along Los Patrones as County 241!

Los Patrones "Parkway" is built to full freeway standards.  The "bike lane" is actually a Class I bike path separated by fencing off to the side.  This is a fully controlled access facility.  The only differences to the 241 are:  1)  It is free of tolls; 2)  Maintained by Orange County (not the state); 3)  The median and overall footprint is much more narrow than the 241.

The irony here is that this roadway was allowed while the Water Board denied a permit to the Tesoro Extension.  This was never about water quality.  It was about denying the TCA an easy way to finish the 241 to the 5.

IIRC at one point -- about 8-9 years ago -- it was proposed to "shunt" the 241 facility down close to the San Juan riverbed paralleling CA 74 all the way to I-5.   With a decidedly narrower profile/footprint, that concept may still be feasible.  At this point Caltrans has obviously elected to wash its hands of anything pertaining to an extension; it will be up to OCTA to take the reins here.  With the actions regarding the Tesoro extension as well as Coastal Commission opposition, some sort of alternative that in all likelihood will abandon the notion of any facility through the foothills east of San Clemente would be the only remaining option.  Fanciful extensions SE over the ridgeline to Fallbrook or I-15 will likely remain "pie-in-the-sky" concepts (requiring the cooperation of San Diego and/or Riverside counties in any instance); "shunting" it to I-5 north of San Clemente may well be the only way to ensure that traffic flow between the Santa Margarita "stub" of CA 241 and I-5 gets some sort of dedicated facility -- even a smaller-profile ROW built under county auspices. 
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don1991

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2019, 09:33:08 PM »

A sort of a southern segment has been added from the south end of CA 241 at Oso Pkwy, Los Patrones Parkway.

https://www.ocregister.com/2018/09/11/first-segment-of-los-patrones-parkway-will-open-wednesday-sept-12/

This will eventually connect CA 241 at Oso nearly to CA 74 east of San Juan Capistrano. It will go to Cow Camp Rd in the Rancho Viejo development, which parallels CA 74/Ortega Hwy. Currently an overpass for Oso at CA 241 is being built for a direct connection from CA 241 to Los Patrones Parkway.

Also, last year a new connector opened between CA 74 at Antonio in SJC and Ave Pico in San Clemente, Ave La Pata.  This is built like a freeway for a couple of miles.

The new "connector" you speak of - Ave La Pata only has an interchange at the Prima Derescha landfill.  The rest could be considered to be "managed access" (a prime arterial) but not limited access by any means.  Certainly not a freeway.
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don1991

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2019, 09:38:28 PM »

The picture depicts a facility not significantly different from the CA 241 toll road to the north.  As I opined earlier, Los Patrones, despite exhortations to the contrary, may well be a placeholder for an eventual 241 extension southward.  As the old adage goes:  if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is, for all intents and purposes -- or may well be -- a duck! At least it's a ROW if not up to full freeway (or tollway) standards.

It wouldn't at all surprise me if OCTA emulates Clark County, NV and erects "pentagon" signage along Los Patrones as County 241!

An agreement earlier this year between San Clemente and Orange County precludes conversion of the free Los Patrones section to tollway.  Indeed, the TCA's current South County Mobility Study (how many of these have we paid for now?) concentrates on the section from Cow Camp to I-5.  They've given up on the section from Oso to Cow Camp.  Though the developers built Los Patrones (once known as "F Street"), they were reimbursed by Orange County and the ROW still belongs to Caltrans and/or the TCA.  Not sure if the TCA could still build a toll road by allowing free lanes off to the side.

At least we got a freeway of some kind anyway.  If only we could get it to connect to I-5.
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theroadwayone

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2019, 05:11:16 AM »

The picture depicts a facility not significantly different from the CA 241 toll road to the north.  As I opined earlier, Los Patrones, despite exhortations to the contrary, may well be a placeholder for an eventual 241 extension southward.  As the old adage goes:  if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is, for all intents and purposes -- or may well be -- a duck! At least it's a ROW if not up to full freeway (or tollway) standards.

It wouldn't at all surprise me if OCTA emulates Clark County, NV and erects "pentagon" signage along Los Patrones as County 241!

Los Patrones "Parkway" is built to full freeway standards.  The "bike lane" is actually a Class I bike path separated by fencing off to the side.  This is a fully controlled access facility.  The only differences to the 241 are:  1)  It is free of tolls; 2)  Maintained by Orange County (not the state); 3)  The median and overall footprint is much more narrow than the 241.

The irony here is that this roadway was allowed while the Water Board denied a permit to the Tesoro Extension.  This was never about water quality.  It was about denying the TCA an easy way to finish the 241 to the 5.
I was going to say the same thing. Now, we just need some way of clearing a path to complete it that doesn't involve nuking southern OC.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2019, 04:41:58 PM »

Couldn't they have terminated the Los Patrones Parkway at CA 74? It's only a short distance south of Cow Camp Road.
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djsekani

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2020, 03:06:48 PM »

Couldn't they have terminated the Los Patrones Parkway at CA 74? It's only a short distance south of Cow Camp Road.

It could be eventually. The current terminus at Cow Camp Road is just an incomplete interchange, and it's designed for the Parkway to  continue southward.

Most of the roadgeeks here would like to see it continued all the way to I-5, but having lived in San Clemente for a while I don't see the real-world value in that connection.
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SeriesE

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2020, 05:40:14 PM »

Couldn't they have terminated the Los Patrones Parkway at CA 74? It's only a short distance south of Cow Camp Road.

It could be eventually. The current terminus at Cow Camp Road is just an incomplete interchange, and it's designed for the Parkway to  continue southward.

Most of the roadgeeks here would like to see it continued all the way to I-5, but having lived in San Clemente for a while I don't see the real-world value in that connection.

It would’ve been a good northbound bypass for people from San Diego to avoid the traffic at the PCH curve.
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nexus73

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2020, 06:00:25 PM »

If a connection was made to I-5, would this road be able to get expanded to 4 lanes or more in each direction with a measure of ease?  Eventually the load on I-5 needs to be lessened.  In a distant future one can see Camp Pendleton closed. then privately developed and a massive parallel route to I-5 going from San Diego County to Orange County. 

Rick
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theroadwayone

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2020, 04:39:45 AM »

Couldn't they have terminated the Los Patrones Parkway at CA 74? It's only a short distance south of Cow Camp Road.

It could be eventually. The current terminus at Cow Camp Road is just an incomplete interchange, and it's designed for the Parkway to  continue southward.

Most of the roadgeeks here would like to see it continued all the way to I-5, but having lived in San Clemente for a while I don't see the real-world value in that connection.

It would’ve been a good northbound bypass for people from San Diego to avoid the traffic at the PCH curve.
I'm from San Diego and having been up there and back, I can concur.
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The Ghostbuster

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2020, 04:37:59 PM »

While it likely would have been nice if a "reliever route" parallel to Interstate 5 could have been constructed, such a route would be impossible today. I have strong doubts on whether CA-241/Los Patrones Parkway will ever make it to Interstate 5. Would it be possible to hypothetically build an east-west route to connect Interstate 5 with CA-241/Los Patrones Parkway?
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Plutonic Panda

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Re: CA 241 - Los Patrones Parkway
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2020, 04:54:45 PM »

I really hope the 241 is extended to I-5. I am one who would use it many times a year.
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