Update on I-69 Extension in Indiana

[EngineerTM]

The Evansville Courier & Press reprinted an editorial from the Bloomington Herald-Times that gave an interesting perspective of Section 4's opening from Bloomington's point of view.  Because the Herald-Times locks up all of its content behind pay walls, I couldn't link to that article (or its readers' comments) directly.  So instead I attached the Courier reprint.

http://www.courierpress.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-like-it-or-not-i-69-opens-up-links-26e2ec26-4fe5-59c8-e053-0100007f2552-362478941.html

However, there was one part of this editorial that really jumped out at me:

So the absence of nearly all Bloomington and Monroe County elected officials from Wednesday's opening ceremony of I-69's Section 4 was understandable. It's going to take time to get comfortable with this new relationship.

Perhaps we can begin by considering that I-69 is not "their" road. In many important ways, it is "ours" as well.

The people using it today are not from Mexico or Canada. They are not drug couriers. They do not come here to steal our jobs or destroy the place we love. They are people we know, and they care about Bloomington, too.

A major piece of infrastructure improvement is opened that will greatly benefit Indiana and all communities along this route, and these local officials are still spitefully holding their collective grudges.  These officials still decided to show their true selves, their true pettiness, and not even attend the opening ceremony.  These people should be ashamed of themselves, especially for the years of how they derisively referred to their fellow state residents living south of them.  Frankly, I will make sure that every time I drive up to Indianapolis, I will not do any commerce with this town's businesses.  If there had been any justice, Section 5 would have been built without adding any additional interchanges than what was already present on SR 37.

[triplemultiplex]

Bah, if those officials showed up, the same people would be criticizing them for trying to take credit for a project they opposed.  There's enough pettiness and spite to go around.

[EngineerTM]

Bah, if those officials showed up, the same people would be criticizing them for trying to take credit for a project they opposed.  There's enough pettiness and spite to go around.

I disagree.  I think that these local officials showing up would have been a nice gesture towards putting this animosity behind everyone.  But I also agree that there has been a perception that the interstate's supporters have been excessively "spiking the football" at the opponents.  I have some friends who are involved in promoting economic development along this corridor, and they are trying very hard to overcome these hard feelings.  I've been told that there are many businesses within Bloomington that were not opposed to this new interstate, but the voices of the opposition drew most of the press coverage.

To a fair extent, I suspect that the news organizations drove much of this, because it helps sell newspapers.

[silverback1065]

They'll get over it, and if they don't it doesn't matter anyway, they lost.

[andy]

Just did a quick glance over at google maps:  The 69 designation is applied all the way up to Fullerton Pike.

Yes I did that.   That's the first at grade crossing where the freeway priority ends.  While a little bit of that is in section 5 logically we all know that will be part of I69.

That Road still has an intersection with northbound 37.

I drove on the newest section yesterday. I was most impressed with the very tall bridge (not sure what road that is) that goes over I-69.

Wow - that is surprising to hear, especially since the new Rockport Road overpass bridge immediately to the north of That Road has been built and opened to traffic.  Not sure why That Road would still be opened, unless the contractor has not finished building the access road to the east of 37 that would route That Road on to Rockport Road.

Old topic (sort of), but I just drove through and noticed the prominently posted blue signs with 'H' on it.  It looks That Road is still open except for thru-crossing traffic as access to the hospital until Fullerton gets its ramps.

[silverback1065]

I agree that I-69 should go to Bloomington, but I also think it should have been built as a toll road from the the SR 57 interchange (Exit 22) to the SR 37 interchange. There's was really no good reason not to toll that section.

I guess no better reason than not to toll I-70 from SR 46 to I-465.......

Could even have tolling along the new SR 641, since it was only built to benefit Terre Haute.     See how easy it is to play this game?

I would actually support tolling both SR 641 and I-70.

you might get your wish

http://wishtv.com/2015/12/17/indiana-gasoline-tax-would-go-up-under-house-gop-proposal/

[silverback1065]

also us 41, the reason why SR 641 is taking forever to complete is likely due to the environmental concerns, I talked with someone who worked on the project, and quite a bit of work is being done to completely reroute a creek, remove trees and other things related to that.  I also heard there has been issues with the EPA regarding some things on the project that had to get cleared up.  doing all of that isn't hard, but with all the rules and regulations, it becomes hard. 

[US 41]

Republican bill would also call for a state study on the possibility of charging tolls on Interstates 65 and 70 across the entire state, which could generate $365 million a year, said House transportation committee Chairman Ed Soliday, R-Valparaiso.

Tolling I-70 and I-65 across the state is an awesome idea. Now there's an idea I can get behind!

[silverback1065]

Republican bill would also call for a state study on the possibility of charging tolls on Interstates 65 and 70 across the entire state, which could generate $365 million a year, said House transportation committee Chairman Ed Soliday, R-Valparaiso.

Tolling I-70 and I-65 across the state is an awesome idea. Now there's an idea I can get behind!

It makes sense, but I like everyone else, like free, but this may be the only way to keep our roads non-shitty.

[bmeiser]

I'd rather they increase the gas tax.  Wouldn't it cost quite a bit of money to convert all of the exits on 65/70 to toll plazas?

[US 41]

Republican bill would also call for a state study on the possibility of charging tolls on Interstates 65 and 70 across the entire state, which could generate $365 million a year, said House transportation committee Chairman Ed Soliday, R-Valparaiso.

Tolling I-70 and I-65 across the state is an awesome idea. Now there's an idea I can get behind!

It makes sense, but I like everyone else, like free, but this may be the only way to keep our roads non-shitty.

We both know from experience that some of the roads in Indiana are pretty bad.

From the Hammond area to Lebanon US 41 and US 52 would be a very reasonable alternative yo I-65. Also south of Indy to New Albany US 31 is the obvious free alternative.

(I'm 100% sure I-65 and 70 would remain toll free through Indianapolis.)

As for I-70, US 40 is 4 lanes across the state, except in some of the towns it runs through where it only has a center turn lane. So it a very reasonable alternative as well.

They should also consider adding tolls on I-64, 69, and 74 in certain places.

I'd rather them toll the interstates than raise the gas tax.

[silverback1065]

I'd rather raise the gas tax

Nexus 6P

[Pete from Boston]

One problem with using tolls is that these facilities benefit the people of an entire region, not just the folks that drive over them.  This is why I favor a combination of more broadly assessed revenue sources rather than simply tolls alone.

It is a tricky nut to crack to make sure that everyone is paying according to the amount they benefit, and ultimately impossible to get exactly right, but some taxes do have their place in achieving this fairly.

[silverback1065]

I think tolling could do a lot of good

Nexus 6P

[seicer]

The problem with the gasoline tax is that not all future vehicles will be gasoline powered. As we have seen, the upper-class is all about purchasing electric vehicles - although the majority of electric vehicles for 2015 is being sold in China. The development of batteries (Tesla), hydrogen fuel cells (Toyota), and extended-range gasoline/batteries (General Motors) renders the gasoline tax more useless with each vehicle that is sold. Within the decade, gasoline will still be the dominant fuel but not the only fuel available. One state - which I can't remember off-hand, is proposing a mere $100 yearly tax for electric vehicles to offset the gasoline tax. That is not hardly enough considering that they also use the same roadways and weigh just as much - yet are vastly cleaner emissions wise. Trade off? Sure. It just won't work 10 years from now.

[vdeane]

The problem with the gasoline tax is that not all future vehicles will be gasoline powered. As we have seen, the upper-class is all about purchasing electric vehicles - although the majority of electric vehicles for 2015 is being sold in China. The development of batteries (Tesla), hydrogen fuel cells (Toyota), and extended-range gasoline/batteries (General Motors) renders the gasoline tax more useless with each vehicle that is sold. Within the decade, gasoline will still be the dominant fuel but not the only fuel available. One state - which I can't remember off-hand, is proposing a mere $100 yearly tax for electric vehicles to offset the gasoline tax. That is not hardly enough considering that they also use the same roadways and weigh just as much - yet are vastly cleaner emissions wise. Trade off? Sure. It just won't work 10 years from now.

So make an electricity tax when there are enough electric vehicles to cause an issue.  I don't expect that hybrids (or anything that runs on gas, for that matter) will stick around long after electric cars are ready and affordable for the masses.

[ARMOURERERIC]

Did not Texas place a extra sales tax on auto parts that is dedicated to roads?

[noelbotevera]

While we're at it, why not just dedicate all the taxes to roads, and raise them all, because if it really is this hard of a debate to raise a tax, then raise them all.

[seicer]

Yeah, good luck with that. That's why we are in the pickle that we are with the federal gasoline tax being stagnant for so long.

[thefro]

There's zero chance I-65/I-70 get tolled through the entire state.

Daniels couldn't even get most of I-69 built as a toll road because people got mad in SW Indiana.

Any service fee on cars needs to be all on autos, electric or not.  The state shouldn't be discouraging ownership of cars that use less/no gasoline.

[Rick Powell]

There's zero chance I-65/I-70 get tolled through the entire state.

Daniels couldn't even get most of I-69 built as a toll road because people got mad in SW Indiana.

Any service fee on cars needs to be all on autos, electric or not.  The state shouldn't be discouraging ownership of cars that use less/no gasoline.

Yes, but there's a tipping point where if a substantial portion of the fleet is using the roads but not contributing to their maintenance, something's gotta give.  With the purchase subsidies and lower cost of "fuel" it's hard to make a case that EV owners or potential owners are being "discouraged".  Other than a mileage tax, the easiest way to raise user fees across the board is to increase the annual vehicle registration cost.  At the point where there are few petroleum-fueled vehicles on the road, it is easy to envision an annual auto vehicle registration in the hundreds of dollars in the future just to keep each states' road fund solvent.  And the loss of federal MFT money by losing petroleum based taxes will be an interesting debate...will the feds keep patching the hole with funds from other sources, or will they slowly get out of the game?

[hoosierguy]

http://www.courierpress.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-like-it-or-not-i-69-opens-up-links-26e2ec26-4fe5-59c8-e053-0100007f2552-362478941.html

A major piece of infrastructure improvement is opened that will greatly benefit Indiana and all communities along this route, and these local officials are still spitefully holding their collective grudges.  These officials still decided to show their true selves, their true pettiness, and not even attend the opening ceremony.  These people should be ashamed of themselves, especially for the years of how they derisively referred to their fellow state residents living south of them.  Frankly, I will make sure that every time I drive up to Indianapolis, I will not do any commerce with this town's businesses.  If there had been any justice, Section 5 would have been built without adding any additional interchanges than what was already present on SR 37.

This is sick. You think "justice" is building an interstate that cuts off access to a major hospital on Fullerton Pike and medical complex on Tapp Toad?

How mature of you to punish a town's businesses because some of its residents had the audacity to oppose having a highway blasted through their city, a highway blasted through precious forest land and very environmentally sensitive karst terrain.

Evansville already had the highway infrastructure for I-69, Bloomington didn't, so nobody down south had homes destroyed, property taken, access roads cut off. The people of Monroe County actually care about the environment and many moved there to get away from the congestion an interstate brings. I am so very sorry if that dares challenge your worldview.

[mgk920]

The people of Monroe County actually care about the environment and many moved there to get away from the congestion an interstate brings. I am so very sorry if that dares challenge your worldview.

I hear the mantra all the time "I moved here for the PEACE and QUIET of the *COUNTRY* and now look at all of this blah blah blah blah blah".  My heart bleeds.  Did they not think that anyone else would follow them out to their areas AND these types often live waaaaay out and drive the biggest, thirstiest sooves on the market "Do as I say and not as I do".

I have ZERO sympathy for those types.



Mike

[hoosierguy]

The people of Monroe County actually care about the environment and many moved there to get away from the congestion an interstate brings. I am so very sorry if that dares challenge your worldview.

I hear the mantra all the time "I moved here for the PEACE and QUIET of the *COUNTRY* and now look at all of this blah blah blah blah blah".  My heart bleeds.  Did they not think that anyone else would follow them out to their areas AND these types often live waaaaay out and drive the biggest, thirstiest sooves on the market "Do as I say and not as I do".

I have ZERO sympathy for those types.



Mike

It isn't just the people in the country that opposed the road. Local officials are concerned about the impact of the interstate on roads like Fullerton and Tapp which are not equipped to handle traffic coming off an interstate. Fullerton is especially bad. The city and county government have limited funds to maintain and improve roads. The least the state could do is provide money to help local authorities upgrade roads with exits, beyond just the area where the exit is located.

What bothers greatly me are some people on here who think that Bloomington should be punished by building the interstate with limited, or in the case of one poster, NO exits through the city. What kind of juvenile, insane nonsense is that? people are allowed to have opposing viewpoints without fear of psychotic retribution.

[cjw2001]

This is sick. You think "justice" is building an interstate that cuts off access to a major hospital on Fullerton Pike and medical complex on Tapp Toad?

Exactly how is the hospital cut off if there is going to be an interchange at Fullerton Pike?