Update on I-69 Extension in Indiana

[silverback1065]

not only will there be an exit at fullerton pike, there will be a connection to gordon pike built soon, so that point is moot.  Also the highway did little to no damage to the city along 37, the part splitting off did, but again as I said, people of your opinion lost, get over it, move on. It sucks that people lost their property, but this was needed to get this project done, all other routes made no sense at all.  also the idea of removing all exits in bloomington was a joke and nothing more.

The county has no funding to complete the Fullerton Pike corridor, just a small federal grant to upgrade part of the existing route between Walnut and Henderson. As a result, there will be a period of several years, if not more, where interstate traffic dumps on to Fullerton which dead ends at Rockport. These roads are not meant to handle much traffic and are not well maintained. This is a reality the highway cheerleaders don't discuss, preferring pie in the sky predictions of jobs and economic growth.

How is that different than the rest of the state? It has taken years or tens of years in some cases for roads to be properly improved beyond interchanges on both new and old freeways in Indiana. It is up to the local governments to plan for and prioritize such improvements - that includes lining up federal or state funding. If you look at the new US 31 in Hamilton County, roads were only improved in close proximity to the new interchanges. In Kokomo and South Bend, such improvements in comparable situations happened after the freeway was completed. For example, Touby Pike (starting in 2016) and Kern Road (completed this year).

In my opinion, Bloomigton was a nightmare to drive through, and the state has done an excellent job there in the last five years.

As far as the extension/improvement of Fullerton Pike taking several years, the MPO decides how to prioritize projects. The "several years if not more" statement may or may not be true. That was the claim to try to stop I-69 from being built in Bloomington due to no immediate plans for construction north of Bloomington. The state was serious so it happened faster than anyone believed. Likewise, if the county or city want to improve Fullerton Pike, they will make it happen.

IMHO, the intentional dearth of interchanges (no access) on that newest part of I-69 SW of Bloomington is in itself the most effective measure of all for preventing what I call 'premature development'.  Zoning laws will ultimately fail due to market pressure.

Mike

Is there really any need for more interchanges ever in that area?  Also, how much extra development will actually happen?  I think this claim is overstated, look at all of the reasonably sized cities near interstates in the state, development didn't exactly explode, making a huge sprawling city.   

Didn't Evansville's east side kind of explode once 164 and the Lloyd went in?

It happens a lot. Consider what all of these areas were like 15-25 years ago (i.e. look at old maps):
- I-65 and US 30 in Merrillville/Hobart - tons of commercial growth
- I-65 and SR 26 in Lafayette
- I-65 and County Line Rd. in Indy/Greenwood
- I-65 and US 31 in Edinburgh
- I-65 and old SR 131 in Clarksville - Bass Pro and other development
- I-94 and SR 249 in Portage - Bass Pro and other development
- I-94 and SR 49 - Chesterton used to be a sleepy little town
- I-69 and SR 1 in Fort Wayne
- I-69 and SR 3 Fort Wayne
- I-69 and Illinois St. in Fort Wayne
- I-69 and Jefferson (Fort Wayne)
- I-69 and SR 22 in Gas City - nothing like the big cities, but a good amount of commercial and industrial growth
- I-69 and Campus Pkwy in Noblesville
- I-69 and 116th St. in Fishers
- I-69 and 96th St in Indy/Fishers
- I-70 and US 41 in Terre Haute
- I-70 and SR 267 in Plainfield
- I-70 and SR 9  in Greenfield
- I-469 and SR 37 in Fort Wayne
- I-465 at several interchanges on the west and north legs
...and others.

Major automotive facilities were built at - I-74 at US 421 in Greensburg (Honda), I-65 at SR 38 in Lafayette, and I-69 at I-469 in Fort Wayne.

Significant development can certainly happen at key interchanges. In Bloomington, I would say the best potential would be at the SR 46 interchange.

And I don't think any of the cities you listed would be angry about the growth, sure it's sprawl, but it helps a lot of people.

[thefro]

I think people forget that the current route of SR 37 isn't fully developed yet (remember, it's a bypass of the original route through Bloomington on Walnut street).  You've already seen the city sprawl out towards that highway, but there's still a good amount of land that can be developed that would be close to future I-69.

An exit at Harmony Road or Rockport Road several miles SW of the city would just get a gas station at best.  There's other more desirable land for people to build factories, commercial strips, or housing developments which is closer to the actual city and Indiana University and still has access to I-69.

[EngineerTM]

If there had been any justice, Section 5 would have been built without adding any additional interchanges than what was already present on SR 37.

This is sick. ...

Sick? Really? Howabout just "frustrated?"

See, the problem with using words like "sick" to describe something that clearly isn't sick is that it drains words like that of their meaning. Then when you encounter something that is truly sick, you either have nothing to use to accurately describe it or you need to resort to higher levels of exaggerated language, draining those words of their meaning.

Just call EngineerTM guilty of hyperbole (without the attack on his psyche) and we'll all ignore your hyperbole as well. Deal?

Do you know for a fact that it was just hyperbole? Either way it is reckless and uncalled for. The consequences of cutting off Fullerton and Tapp would be devastating.

Reckless and uncalled for?  As opposed to the venom that was directed to the citizens of SW Indiana by the activists in Bloomington telling us that we didn't matter, who carelessly dismissed our concerns regarding our children driving on these winding and substandard rural roads to attend IU for classes should instead stay in our corner of the State (that we were not welcomed), that SW Indiana would be better off leaving and becoming part of Illinois or Kentucky?  Was any of that reckless and uncalled for?  All of these "reckless and uncalled" for comments are in the records of the development of both the DEIS, FEIS, and RODs for all phases of this project (which are available on INDOT's I-69 website for those wishing to read them).  What about the reckless and uncalled for accusations directed towards the transportation professionals and environmental scientists who worked on these plans: many I-69 opponents called them liars and deceivers who were purposely presenting fraudulent and dishonest studies to push their "pet project" of this interstate.  Perhaps you should first look in the mirror.

My statement was simply an expression of frustration and disappointment that many of the elected officials in Bloomington and Monroe County, on the day that this new section was opened, still can't get over these past actions.  However, as a professional engineer who has worked with both INDOT and other local municipalities on infrastructure projects, I would never advocate any design that would deliberately seek to punish people.  It is part of our Code of Ethics which I take seriously on all of my engineering projects.

As for the "devastating consequences" of cutting off Tapp and Fullerton: all of the alternatives studied called for an interchange at Fullerton Pike.  However, not all of them called for one at Tapp Road.  But, because of the thoroughness of the studies and taking into account constructive public input, an alternative that included both interchanges was selected based on the merits of the facts.  See?  The process can work, and it is one that I respect.

The accusations of fraud and dishonestly by the more unreasonable opponents of I-69 notwithstanding, the Tier 1 and Tier 2 studies worked as they were supposed to.  Facts and data were collected and all reasonable alternatives were thoroughly studied by experienced professionals.  The public had ample opportunities to be involved in the process and voice their concerns.  All public comments received were responded to in a professional manner.  Finally, the entire process was overseen by the federal regulatory agencies responsible and everything was done in full compliance of the law.  In fact, INDOT received praise for their thoroughness and transparency for the manner in which the Tier 1 and Tier 2 studies were done.  Reasonable people recognize this.

I accept that there are many in Bloomington who will never accept any of this.  To those people, there really isn't much more that I can say to them.

[bmeiser]

So much drama!  Any update on Section 5? 

[EngineerTM]

So much drama!  Any update on Section 5? 

I drove through that area about a month ago, before Section 4 was opened.  The contractor is making a lot of progress on Section 5.  The NB SR 37 traffic at the southern limits of Section 5 had been relocated back to the northbound lanes, but only one lane in each direction was opened at the southern end.  As I drove through Section 5, this is what I saw:

The Rockport Road overpass bridge was done and opened to traffic.  In addition, the contractor had placed a large amount of the concrete barrier walls between the NB and SB lanes.  The interstate is going to have 3 through lanes in each direction within Bloomington's limits.

Work on the Fullerton Pike Interchange/overpass bridge had started - the bridge pier in the center of the road was under construction.

The Vernal Pike overpass bridge was well under construction.  The center pier was done and work was underway on the end abutments.

The Kinser Pike overpass bridge was even further along.  The bridge piers and abutments were build, the beams were in place, and it appeared that they were getting ready to pour the bridge deck in the very near future (it may have been done; it was not easy to see from below).

Earthwork was underway at the future Sample Road Interchange.

In addition, it was evident that sections of the roadway had been repaved.

You can also go to the contractor's website at http://www.i69section5.org/ for the construction schedule, maps, and newsletter updates.

[seicer]

If there had been any justice, Section 5 would have been built without adding any additional interchanges than what was already present on SR 37.

This is sick. ...

Sick? Really? Howabout just "frustrated?"

See, the problem with using words like "sick" to describe something that clearly isn't sick is that it drains words like that of their meaning. Then when you encounter something that is truly sick, you either have nothing to use to accurately describe it or you need to resort to higher levels of exaggerated language, draining those words of their meaning.

Just call EngineerTM guilty of hyperbole (without the attack on his psyche) and we'll all ignore your hyperbole as well. Deal?

Do you know for a fact that it was just hyperbole? Either way it is reckless and uncalled for. The consequences of cutting off Fullerton and Tapp would be devastating.

Reckless and uncalled for?  As opposed to the venom that was directed to the citizens of SW Indiana by the activists in Bloomington telling us that we didn't matter, who carelessly dismissed our concerns regarding our children driving on these winding and substandard rural roads to attend IU for classes should instead stay in our corner of the State (that we were not welcomed), that SW Indiana would be better off leaving and becoming part of Illinois or Kentucky?  Was any of that reckless and uncalled for?  All of these "reckless and uncalled" for comments are in the records of the development of both the DEIS, FEIS, and RODs for all phases of this project (which are available on INDOT's I-69 website for those wishing to read them).  What about the reckless and uncalled for accusations directed towards the transportation professionals and environmental scientists who worked on these plans: many I-69 opponents called them liars and deceivers who were purposely presenting fraudulent and dishonest studies to push their "pet project" of this interstate.  Perhaps you should first look in the mirror.

My statement was simply an expression of frustration and disappointment that many of the elected officials in Bloomington and Monroe County, on the day that this new section was opened, still can't get over these past actions.  However, as a professional engineer who has worked with both INDOT and other local municipalities on infrastructure projects, I would never advocate any design that would deliberately seek to punish people.  It is part of our Code of Ethics which I take seriously on all of my engineering projects.

As for the "devastating consequences" of cutting off Tapp and Fullerton: all of the alternatives studied called for an interchange at Fullerton Pike.  However, not all of them called for one at Tapp Road.  But, because of the thoroughness of the studies and taking into account constructive public input, an alternative that included both interchanges was selected based on the merits of the facts.  See?  The process can work, and it is one that I respect.

The accusations of fraud and dishonestly by the more unreasonable opponents of I-69 notwithstanding, the Tier 1 and Tier 2 studies worked as they were supposed to.  Facts and data were collected and all reasonable alternatives were thoroughly studied by experienced professionals.  The public had ample opportunities to be involved in the process and voice their concerns.  All public comments received were responded to in a professional manner.  Finally, the entire process was overseen by the federal regulatory agencies responsible and everything was done in full compliance of the law.  In fact, INDOT received praise for their thoroughness and transparency for the manner in which the Tier 1 and Tier 2 studies were done.  Reasonable people recognize this.

I accept that there are many in Bloomington who will never accept any of this.  To those people, there really isn't much more that I can say to them.

lol

[Pete from Boston]

I have been in public meetings where adults really descend into infantilism in how they verbally abuse their neighbors and other people in general.  Activism is the backbone of a healthy democracy, and you should pursue your agenda as far as you're committed to it, but if you can't do it civilly, you don't deserve to get anything.

The worst is when a cause held by reasonable people is corrupted by people who stoop to insult and thuggery.  Come on, people–someday your little issue is going to get resolved one way or another and you're still all going to have to find a way to tolerate living with one another there.

[hoosierguy]

The Bloomington/Monroe County MPO does plan to build a "southern bypass" of the city utilizing Fullerton Pike/Rhorer Road and Sare Road. They currently have acquired less than 10% of the needed funds. The city now also needs new funds to upgrade 17th Street west of the Arlington Road split because Vernal Pike east of 37 will be cut off, leaving 17th as the only way across the interstate for that part of the city.

As for other local roads around the state not being equipped to handle interchange traffic, that is different. The U.S. 31 projects simply upgraded an existing road, they did not involve building an interstate bringing in significant new traffic from a new direction and different part of the state. The US 31 upgrades didn't bring more traffic into the regions it serves, rather allowed existing traffic to flow more quickly.

[mukade]

The Bloomington/Monroe County MPO does plan to build a "southern bypass" of the city utilizing Fullerton Pike/Rhorer Road and Sare Road. They currently have acquired less than 10% of the needed funds. The city now also needs new funds to upgrade 17th Street west of the Arlington Road split because Vernal Pike east of 37 will be cut off, leaving 17th as the only way across the interstate for that part of the city.

As for other local roads around the state not being equipped to handle interchange traffic, that is different. The U.S. 31 projects simply upgraded an existing road, they did not involve building an interstate bringing in significant new traffic from a new direction and different part of the state. The US 31 upgrades didn't bring more traffic into the regions it serves, rather allowed existing traffic to flow more quickly.

I agree I-69 will be a significant corridor eventually, but I very seriously doubt that I-69 from Evansville to Bloomington has yet brought in significant new traffic. First, even though the traffic volume on section 3 was higher than before, it did not have that much traffic when I drove it a couple of weeks ago. Secondly, the majority of the current I-69 section 4 and 5 traffic would have used SR 45 or SR 37 anyway. I am sure some traffic increase would be from those who previously would have used US 41 to I-70, but the significant increase in traffic will not occur until I-69 is completed further south (at least the Ohio River bridge) and into Indy. I don't get why any of the eventual new traffic will use Bloomington roads unless Bloomington was their destination in the first place.

I am certain the US 31 freeway upgrades made the route a viable alternative to I-69 or even I-75 for some southbound travelers from Michigan. This is similar to the US 24 Fort to Port freeway upgrade drawing traffic that previously used I-94 to I-69. That essentially built a new parallel route to the old, dangerous US 24, but that highway is now significantly busier than the old US 24 was. Both these examples are supported by new Loves Travel Centers on both. That alone may be an unscientific gauge, but when we see any new services being built on the new part of I-69 (sections 1-5), we will have evidence that the market recognizes the current significance of the new road as a major corridor.

So in summary, I would maintain that Bloomington and Evansville are not alone in picking up new traffic from the new highway construction in Indiana.

To your first point, every city struggles to get all of the funding for roads they want. If I remember right, Bloomington listed quite a number of projects in their plan so maybe the bypass is less important than some other things. I would maintain that Lafayette/West Lafayette are in worse shape than Bloomington. As congested as Bloomington may be near College Mall, getting across Lafayette is a much more difficult challenge.

[Rothman]

I would maintain that Lafayette/West Lafayette are in worse shape than Bloomington. As congested as Bloomington may be near College Mall, getting across Lafayette is a much more difficult challenge.

You must be a Purdue fan.

[jnewkirk77]

I would maintain that Lafayette/West Lafayette are in worse shape than Bloomington. As congested as Bloomington may be near College Mall, getting across Lafayette is a much more difficult challenge.

You must be a Purdue fan.

Even with the I-69 upgrade work, Bloomington is easier to drive than Lafayette. No need to be a Purdue fan to state the obvious (although I am one!).

[Rick Powell]

...when we see any new services being built on the new part of I-69 (sections 1-5), we will have evidence that the market recognizes the current significance of the new road as a major corridor.

I-39 in Illinois is a somewhat similar corridor.  The stretches between Rockford and I-80, and I-80 to I-55, were in place for a good spell before anything substantial showed up in the corridor.  First there was a truck stop in Rochelle, then a little activity in Mendota, Oglesby and El Paso, then Wenona, then Minonk.  There are still several exits with no services in the immediate vicinity, more than 20 years after the link was completed.  The stretch between Oglesby and Rockford is especially barren, even with somewhat heavy through traffic.

[jnewkirk77]

We finally got to try out the new stretch of 69 from Crane to Bloomington this afternoon.  What a great drive!  Some of the views are just amazing.

Even with a 15 minute pit stop along the way (we exited at 445 and stopped at that hole-in-the-hill little Phillips 66 station on 45 - a family tradition of sorts), we made it from the Covert Ave. exit in Evansville to 37 in an hour and 45 minutes.  Can't beat that. 

[noelbotevera]

How's I-69 holding up north of Morgan County?

On another unrelated note, why couldn't they have built I-69 through Indianapolis? There was adequate right of way and INDOT built a small section for it to hook up with I-65 (which it never will).

[qguy]

If there had been any justice, Section 5 would have been built without adding any additional interchanges than what was already present on SR 37.

This is sick. …

Sick? Really? Howabout just "frustrated?"

See, the problem with using words like "sick" to describe something that clearly isn't sick is that it drains words like that of their meaning. Then when you encounter something that is truly sick, you either have nothing to use to accurately describe it or you need to resort to higher levels of exaggerated language, draining those words of their meaning.

Just call EngineerTM guilty of hyperbole (without the attack on his psyche) and we'll all ignore your hyperbole as well. Deal?

Do you know for a fact that it was just hyperbole? Either way it is reckless and uncalled for. The consequences of cutting off Fullerton and Tapp would be devastating.

Yes, I think we can all safely say for a fact that calling EngineerTM's words "sick" is hyperbole.

I have been in public meetings where adults really descend into infantilism in how they verbally abuse their neighbors and other people in general.  Activism is the backbone of a healthy democracy, and you should pursue your agenda as far as you're committed to it, but if you can't do it civilly, you don't deserve to get anything.

The worst is when a cause held by reasonable people is corrupted by people who stoop to insult and thuggery.  Come on, people—someday your little issue is going to get resolved one way or another and you're still all going to have to find a way to tolerate living with one another there.

I saw this all the time when I worked for PennDOT. I'd attend public meetings for projects in my own district which I had a hand in and projects in other districts which I was simply interested in. Even when people weren't using superheated language to attribute the vilest of intentions and motives to other people, they would use extreme, loaded language to express themselves as a matter of course. It's as if people don't know how to express themselves in plain language anymore without resorting to drawing verbal knives at the word go.

For example, someone would get up at a meeting and instead of saying something like, "I think it's clear that the proposed roadway [or whatever] would increase traffic," they would say something like, "The proposed roadway would destroy heaven and Earth and all that is sacred. You people are evil; you want to ruin our health and kill our children. You sit in your offices and plot how you can destroy my way of life." Yes, I've heard just that and yes, that's a mild example.

(hoosierguy: To be clear, I'm not saying you've done this or would. I'm just including both sets of quoted posts in order to avoid double-posting.)

[Pete from Boston]

There's poor education on what the public process exists to do and how.  Public hearings have become the Internet of public life, a soapbox where people lose their restraint, their sense of decorum, and any rhetorical discipline. 

The result is too often a game where the goal is to get the most people on your side to say the same thing and do it in the loudest way. 

I have often felt for the long-suffering people that run public hearings.  Sometimes it feels like there needs to be a courtroom and a judge and bailiff to maintain order and pertinence. 

[Moose]

Speaking of Public Hearings and Going thru town.

Section 6. Anyone notice on one of the videos that INDOT posted recently at the end it said "Next stop, 465" or the like. It may have been the drone video.

Now some of the alternatives still on the table involve going towards I70 west of the Airport. If they do that, I would imagine I69 would be signed along I70 thru town to the eastside 465/70 junction.

HOWEVER, I think INDOT may have tipped it's hand. Personally I think all the alternatives to a 37 upgrade to Harding street are smoke and mirrors and INDOT is just going to pick the original plan. I can't see them doing anything else.............

[mvak36]

I think that's what they will end up doing eventually. We just have to wait it out I guess.


iPhone

[Anthony_JK]

Not trying to be snarky at all, but is that That Road that is intersecting with IN 37/Future I-69 in the distance in that pic? And, how will it access I-69 when that at-grade is eliminated?

[US 41]

Not trying to be snarky at all, but is that That Road that is intersecting with IN 37/Future I-69 in the distance in that pic? And, how will it access I-69 when that at-grade is eliminated?

Yes That Road still connects to Northbound SR 37. That Road will eventually connect to Rockport Road. All traffic that wishes to use That Road in the future will have to access it via the Fullerton Pike Interchange.

[andy]

Not trying to be snarky at all, but is that That Road that is intersecting with IN 37/Future I-69 in the distance in that pic? And, how will it access I-69 when that at-grade is eliminated?

Yes That Road still connects to Northbound SR 37. That Road will eventually connect to Rockport Road. All traffic that wishes to use That Road in the future will have to access it via the Fullerton Pike Interchange.

That Road and Rockport are already connected. It looks like the at grade intersection serves as an alternate to the yet to be constructed exchange for Fullerton. Particularly for hospital access.

[Pete from Boston]

I'm a passenger going southbound on the new section as I type this.  Nice road. 

Much has been made of the "nothing at the exits" quality of the road, but is there so little off the exits (like exit 104 for Indiana Route 445, and 98 for Indiana 45) that there's no destination locale to put on the signs? 

Nary a service sign so far.  The only blue signs I've seen since Bloomington are "To report spills, call XXX-XXXX."

Photographs are pretty impractical today since it's going between pouring, misting, and fog, but there have been lots of good ones posted already.

[Pete from Boston]

Several other observations from here, live on 69:

The old "freeway ends" or whatever signs are still up going north, but with ply on them now.

Almost no signs at all on the new section–guide, regulatory, reassurance–other than the ones I mentioned.

Billboards! are up just south of 231.  Makes the road feel a bit more broken in, even if the boards are blank.

This area also has quite a few little "Jurisdictional Water" signs.  Is this something similar to "Waters of the US"?

[Rick Powell]

For example, someone would get up at a meeting and instead of saying something like, "I think it's clear that the proposed roadway [or whatever] would increase traffic," they would say something like, "The proposed roadway would destroy heaven and Earth and all that is sacred. You people are evil; you want to ruin our health and kill our children. You sit in your offices and plot how you can destroy my way of life." Yes, I've heard just that and yes, that's a mild example.

One of the "best" ones I ever heard was at a public hearing that happened to land three months after the 9/11 bombing in NYC.  "You guys are worse than terrorists."  And that was just for a pre-NEPA planning study.

[tdindy88]

Much has been made of the "nothing at the exits" quality of the road, but is there so little off the exits (like exit 104 for Indiana Route 445, and 98 for Indiana 45) that there's no destination locale to put on the signs? 

SR 445 is a connector road more than anything else with no community at either end. I thought that Bloomfield would be appropriate for SB 69 traffic to SR 445 or at the very least a sign that says "To SR 45 and SR 54." The only other community in that area of any note is Cincinnati and that town is so small that I cannot find a population figure for it. They probably didn't want to confuse people thinking that somehow SR 445 was going to take you "that other" Cincinnati. As for SR 45, nothing either unless Owensburg counts as something. There is another entrance into Crane a few miles south, likely the purpose for this exit but that would be reserved for a smaller green sign and they probably just wanted to route people thorugh the main entrance off of US 231 as it is. So yeah, basically no real control point at all for either exit, and all the other communities listed for the other I-69 exits at least have some people living in them. SR 45 was always basically a connecting highway between Crane and Bloomington with little in the way, that's why it worked as a good through route during Section 4's construction since it was pretty smooth sailing once you got out of Bloomington (though the traffic was often heavy.)

As it is, I haven't seen any posted here, so I'm going to share some pictures of Section 4, taken on a much better day than today.