School Zones...

[J N Winkler]

I actually greatly dislike when a driver slows down and stops to let me cross.  I'd really appreciate if they kept going at a constant speed, so that I can time them and play Frogger and cross the intersection already!

Personally, I'd rather they just kept going at a consistent speed, but I can understand why they don't and I don't blame them for it.  It is difficult to assess a pedestrian's age and capability, much less his or her awareness of the roadway environment, while moving at 20 MPH or thereabouts and trying to carry out the braking and wheel-turning maneuvers involved in turning from one road to another.  Responsible drivers know that they are far less likely to be nailed for running someone over if they stop, even if it turns out not to be necessary, than if they assume the pedestrian is clued in and are then proved wrong.

I'm sick and tired of pedestrians that step out into traffic and expect me to stop on a dime, or ignore red lights and the "DON'T WALK" picture symbol, or walk on the street even if there's a damned sidewalk (for some stupid reason, joggers are notorious for this).

A few points here:

*  With the very narrow exception of streets which have traffic signals at every street block, there is no requirement for pedestrians to obey the "DONT WALK" signal if they can see that the road is clear for them to cross.  Streets having traffic signals at every street block bring the anti-jaywalking provisions of the UVC into play and at such locations it is illegal to cross when "DONT WALK" indications are shown.

*  Use of the street instead of the sidewalk can easily be due to uncleared snow, broken or misaligned slabs, lack of continuity, etc.  I never assume that people walking or jogging in the street when a parallel sidewalk appears to be available are using the street just to annoy motorists.  Sidewalks are flat, whereas streets have a camber which can vary from about 1% to 2.5% but is generally around 2% and is at its greatest extent near the curb due to the more or less universal use of barrel cambering on modern paved roads.  Walking or jogging on surfaces with that kind of camber puts extra stress on the hip joint and can be felt as stiffness at the end of a long walk and as outright pain when done regularly over the long term.  People who use the street instead of the sidewalk are therefore paying a price and therefore must be assumed to have a good reason for what they are doing.  (P.S.  Curb aprons, where used, are even more unforgiving.  Often the road camber continues across the curb apron but it is not uncommon for there to be a pronounced grade point at the joint between curb apron and road surface, with camber changing from 2% to 4% or even higher.)

[NE2]

The speed limit is 15 during these times, but here's the kicker: You also cannot pass in a school zone when they're in effect. This means, that if I'm doing 10 mph in the school zone (well below the speed limit) and the car next to me is doing 5, I can get a ticket for passing in the school zone, even though I'm only doing 10 mph. I can understand the 15 mph speed limit, but the part about no passing is stupid. Does any other state have this idiotic law?

Presumably it's for the same reason you can't pass a car that's stopped at a crosswalk: the car you're passing might hide you from a crossing pedestrian.

[english si]

Doesn't make one iota of difference to when you can cross Winton Rd.  I don't believe anyone in upstate NY considers and unmarked crosswalk to be across a major arterial road, only across side streets and parallel to traffic flow.

All the more reason to....put in a school zone! If cars are going slower, it's safer for pedestrians to take their right of way to cross. With no school zone and people not stopping at crosswalks, jaywalking and other dangerous behavior is encouraged.

Slower traffic, IME, encourages less crossing at specifically designated areas to cross and more crossing elsewhere, due to the risk being perceived as less.

How's a driver to spot an unmarked crosswalk, btw? Surely if you want cars to stop, then the best thing to do is to make the crosswalk obvious to drivers, rather than do a load of other bits and fail to actually deal with the problem.

[hm insulators]

I actually greatly dislike when a driver slows down and stops to let me cross.  I'd really appreciate if they kept going at a constant speed, so that I can time them and play Frogger and cross the intersection already!

I'm sick and tired of pedestrians that step out into traffic and expect me to stop on a dime, or ignore red lights and the "DON'T WALK" picture symbol, or walk on the street even if there's a damned sidewalk (for some stupid reason, joggers are notorious for this).

*  Use of the street instead of the sidewalk can easily be due to uncleared snow, broken or misaligned slabs, lack of continuity, etc.  I never assume that people walking or jogging in the street when a parallel sidewalk appears to be available are using the street just to annoy motorists.  Sidewalks are flat, whereas streets have a camber which can vary from about 1% to 2.5% but is generally around 2% and is at its greatest extent near the curb due to the more or less universal use of barrel cambering on modern paved roads.  Walking or jogging on surfaces with that kind of camber puts extra stress on the hip joint and can be felt as stiffness at the end of a long walk and as outright pain when done regularly over the long term.  People who use the street instead of the sidewalk are therefore paying a price and therefore must be assumed to have a good reason for what they are doing. 

The sidewalks here (Phoenix, AZ) are in good shape. And of course, we don't have to worry about uncleared snow. Pedestrians here (and in Los Angeles) just seem to like to walk in the street, even if the sidewalk available is in perfectly good shape.

[NE2]

How's a driver to spot an unmarked crosswalk, btw?

Same way they spot an intersection. Every intersection has a crosswalk before and after, where the perpendicular sidewalks (if present) would extend across the road.

[Alps]

How's a driver to spot an unmarked crosswalk, btw?

Same way they spot an intersection. Every intersection has a crosswalk before and after, where the perpendicular sidewalks (if present) would extend across the road.

Untrue. If a crosswalk is not marked, it's not a crosswalk. Legally, you can cross the street at an intersection whether or not there's a crosswalk.

[roadfro]

How's a driver to spot an unmarked crosswalk, btw?

Same way they spot an intersection. Every intersection has a crosswalk before and after, where the perpendicular sidewalks (if present) would extend across the road.

Untrue. If a crosswalk is not marked, it's not a crosswalk. Legally, you can cross the street at an intersection whether or not there's a crosswalk.

Not necessarily. Some states specifically define legal crosswalks to exist between all corners of any intersection. With this definition, a legal crosswalk exists on every leg of the intersection whether the crossing is marked or not--unless crossing at a particular location is specifically prohibited by a sign or other traffic control device.

Nevada is one such state that defines crosswalks this way.

[NE2]

If a crosswalk is not marked, it's not a crosswalk. Legally, you can cross the street at an intersection whether or not there's a crosswalk.

"Crosswalk" means that part of a highway at an intersection, either marked or unmarked existing at each approach of every roadway intersection, included within the connections of the lateral lines of the sidewalks on opposite sides of the highway measured from the curbs or, in the absence of curbs, from the edges of the shoulder, or, if none, from the edges of the roadway; also, any portion of a highway at an intersection or elsewhere distinctly indicated for pedestrian crossing by lines or other marking on the surface.

[vdeane]

Laws like that need to be changed.  Unmarked crosswalks should not exist across roads with double yellow lines (or some other form of dividing directions of travel).  I understand having the law (so the DOT doesn't have to paint lines on every driveway and residential street) but it should be restricted in this case.

[NE2]

I want laws like that to be changed.

Corrected, since there's a difference between want and need.

[Kacie Jane]

I want laws like that to be changed.

Corrected, since there's a difference between want and need.

I disagree, I think there may be an actual need for the law to change here.  When laws get so counterinuitive and/or so little-known that people don't follow them, it creates an unsafe situation (either for the driver who follows the law and gets rear-ended by the one who doesn't -- or worse, for the pedestrian who should have plenty of time to cross, makes it across the first half of the roadway, but the guy going the other way isn't expecting to see a pedestrian cross a four-lane arterial in an unmarked crosswalk).

Note that I'm all for vehicles having to yield to pedestrians in marked crosswalks, and I think it's perfectly reasonable to have unmarked crosswalks in residential areas.  But it's absurd to force cars to yield to pedestrians at every intersection between arterials and residential streets.

[english si]

Note that I'm all for vehicles having to yield to pedestrians in marked crosswalks, and I think it's perfectly reasonable to have unmarked crosswalks in residential areas.  But it's absurd to force cars to yield to pedestrians at every intersection between arterials and residential streets.

Legalise jaywalking, big education campaign about safe crossing the road, if you cross the road not at a marked crosswalk (which you are encouraged to use where possible), you don't have priority and cross at your own risk. Unmarked crosswalks are a thing of the past, and drivers only have to yield to marked ones.

Works pretty well in the UK.

[J N Winkler]

Legalise jaywalking, big education campaign about safe crossing the road, if you cross the road not at a marked crosswalk (which you are encouraged to use where possible), you don't have priority and cross at your own risk. Unmarked crosswalks are a thing of the past, and drivers only have to yield to marked ones.

Works pretty well in the UK.

Don't pedestrians in the UK have priority at junctions like in most US states?  The Highway Code mentions this, at least in cases where a motorist pulling into a side street might conflict with a pedestrian crossing the "throat" of the side street.  Also, thoroughfares in British cities are more likely to have refuge islands to facilitate crossing, which makes it less important what the actual stipulations of the law are.

[Bryant5493]

In Hapeville, Georgia -- a small Atlanta suburb between I-75 and I-85 -- there's a 20 mph blanket speed limit from 7:30 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. or so (M-F), but there are no other speed limits posted after that time; that's the only speed limit sign on the street. I read the Georgia driver's manual -- which seems no one has (lol) -- residential/business districts are 30 m.p.h., unless otherwise posted. Mind you, this street is maybe a 1/4 mile long (Atlanta Avenue).


Be well,

Bryant

[national highway 1]

In Australia, we have an equivalent 40km/h (25mph) speed limit in school zones
The original, now being phased out in favor of ones with flashing lights:

The ones with flashing lights were introduced in 2007-2008. The electronic lights are powered by solar panels affixed to the back of the sign. At first they were the standard golden yellow:

...it was later changed to a more fluorescent yellow in 2010

Here is a similar one to the one that route56 posted:

[roadfro]

Kinda awkward combination of placement and sizes of the school, speed and time information (at least compared to what I'm used to). However, I must applaud the very recognizable and readable sizing of the static time information--not seen on many signs in the states.

[PurdueBill]

I like the layout of that Australian sign--although it would be a change from what is common in the USA, the times being larger and easier to read makes the sign a lot better.  The times are often in tiny lettering that is incredibly hard to read--even if there are not 6 different times listed. 

[mjb2002]

School Zone Speed Limit is 45 mph at Oakwood Windsor Elementary School on the CHARLESTON HY in Aiken County - and they have beacons accompanying the sign.

Conversely, 13 miles to the east on that same stretch of US 78 known as MAIN ST, the speed limit is 35 mph, while the school zone speed limit is 25 mph at my alma mater, Williston Elko High.

The school speed limits are reasonable in SC for the most part - only a 10 mph drop-off from the speed limit at other times of the day.

[Zmapper]

What exactly is the point of 35, 45, or even 55 mph school limits? If you hit someone at 35, they will likely die. Why kill them any more at 45 or 55?

The highest speed limit for school zones should be 20-25 mph. If you need a school zone on a road that has a speed limit much more than 25, you either need to build the school in a better location or add tunnels or overpasses so students aren't crossing there.

[NE2]

The point is that the crosswalk needs shorter sight lines if traffic is slower.

[PHLBOS]

In PA, the School Zone Speed Limit is 15 mph.  The only other place I saw a school zone limit that low on a public street was Miami Shores, FL.

In MA, it's 20 mph.
In NJ, I recall seeing a 25 mph limit.

[kkt]

How's a driver to spot an unmarked crosswalk, btw?

Same way they spot an intersection. Every intersection has a crosswalk before and after, where the perpendicular sidewalks (if present) would extend across the road.

Untrue. If a crosswalk is not marked, it's not a crosswalk. Legally, you can cross the street at an intersection whether or not there's a crosswalk.

That is not the case, at least here in Washington State, or in California.  There's a crosswalk at every intersection; some of them are marked and some are not.

[kkt]

Laws like that need to be changed.  Unmarked crosswalks should not exist across roads with double yellow lines (or some other form of dividing directions of travel).  I understand having the law (so the DOT doesn't have to paint lines on every driveway and residential street) but it should be restricted in this case.

Drivers need to know and follow the law.

[bugo]

schools should not be placed on major arterials.  little residential streets well off the grid are where they belong.

Agreed. 

[bugo]

In Oklahoma, most school zones are 25 MPH.  There are almost always flashing yellow lights that come on when the speed zone is in effect.  Arkansas rarely uses the lights which is annoying.