What to do about powerless traffic signals

[Mr. Matté]

I was out campaigning for a local Congressman today, and in my travels many traffic lights were still out following Hurricane Sandy. Officially, an inoperative traffic light means it's an all-way stop, but at every signal I saw, that was not the case. It wasn't a complete crap-storm because in most cases, one of the roads was pretty obviously a "major" road (a side street vs. a 50-mph 5xx county route). At some lights, there were barricades put up in the center-line of the major road (see diagram below) and/or traffic cones to force all traffic on the side street to make a right turn. But at every light that I saw this, people were going around the center barricades to make left turns onto the side street therefore briefly driving on the wrong side of the street. Alternatively, people who wish to continue on the side street just go around the barriers as well.


At a lot of these intersections, the local PD put up temporary stop signs on the side streets, but I'm thinking in order to have more control, how about make a circle of traffic cones in the center of the intersection, put up temporary stop or yields on all legs, and turn the intersection into a temporary mini roundabout?

[Alps]

Depends on the road. NJ 10 had this at River Road. You're not going to be moving traffic on Route 10 through a roundabout. At more minor intersections, I absolutely agree, although a 2-way or 4-way stop might also work in those cases on an emergency basis. I haven't seen much barricade-ducking over the last week, though just today I had to make a sketchy left turn into and back out of a driveway - the barricades and cones were haphazardly placed, so I couldn't tell if they applied to me.

[Brandon]

Usually, when signals are dark, they are supposed to be treated as an all-way stop.  However, as a unique situation last year, after a storm on the Saturday before Labor Day 2011, in Detroit at Telegraph and Five Mile Roads, traffic on Five Mile was made to turn right onto Telegraph, proceed to the Michigan Left, and then turn right onto Five Mile to continue on Five Mile.  Not too different from your suggested idea.

[jeffandnicole]

Trying to create a temporary roundabout would not work.  Cones, after they are properly places, get hit, moved, etc.  After a while, the cones are all out of whack.  It's hard enough to keep cones in place to signal a lane closed or to prevent cross traffic at an intersection.  To completely recreate an intersection into a traffic circle would be absolutely confusing to everyone. 

[1995hoo]

I remember in the aftermath of Hurricane Fran in 1996 there were a lot of temporary portable stop signs set up at a lot of intersections in the Durham, NC, area. To the extent it's feasible that might be a better solution than relying on people to do the right thing. Of course, it's also entirely appropriate to recognize that it's a lot easier for a small city like Durham to do that than it is in a large metropolitan area like DC or New York.

[cpzilliacus]

I remember in the aftermath of Hurricane Fran in 1996 there were a lot of temporary portable stop signs set up at a lot of intersections in the Durham, NC, area. To the extent it's feasible that might be a better solution than relying on people to do the right thing. Of course, it's also entirely appropriate to recognize that it's a lot easier for a small city like Durham to do that than it is in a large metropolitan area like DC or New York.

Maryland's practice is to force all traffic on side roads to make a right turn at a signalized intersection if the power is expected to be out for a while.

I have also seen STOP signs mounted on plastic barrels to reinforce the idea that a dark signal means "All-Way STOP," though plenty of motorists don't get that concept.

[NYhwyfan]

I remember in the aftermath of Hurricane Fran in 1996 there were a lot of temporary portable stop signs set up at a lot of intersections in the Durham, NC, area. To the extent it's feasible that might be a better solution than relying on people to do the right thing. Of course, it's also entirely appropriate to recognize that it's a lot easier for a small city like Durham to do that than it is in a large metropolitan area like DC or New York.

Maryland's practice is to force all traffic on side roads to make a right turn at a signalized intersection if the power is expected to be out for a while.

I have also seen STOP signs mounted on plastic barrels to reinforce the idea that a dark signal means "All-Way STOP," though plenty of motorists don't get that concept.

I can see how the right turn would be safer. In my town we only have so many "temporary" stop signs and placing stop signs at all dark signals would be almost impossible for most municipalities. I just don't understand how hard it is to treat a dark signal as a four-way stop especially in the day time.

[1995hoo]

It isn't hard to treat it as a stop sign. It's more a case of people not wanting to be bothered or thinking that the law doesn't apply to them. As a practical matter, they know the odds of a cop being out at a given intersection issuing tickets to people who don't treat it as a four-way stop are pretty much nil (given that if there were a cop, he'd probably be directing traffic or doing something else instead of writing tickets for this particular offense), so they feel they're free to go.

It's unfortunate that so many drivers seem to think that it's OK to do whatever you want as long as you don't get a ticket. I see constant crap like people turning right from the far left lane, people driving at night with no headlights or just the parking lights, people going straight out of a turn-only lane, people turning from the left-hand of two right-turn lanes into the far right lane (never mind that another car is already turning into that lane from the other turn lane located to the right).....

[Big John]

Wisconsin has the practice, at least for state highways, to place folding stop signs at signalized intersections which can be unfolded and displayed in case of a power outage.

[agentsteel53]

people turning from the left-hand of two right-turn lanes into the far right lane (never mind that another car is already turning into that lane from the other turn lane located to the right).....

or going straight from a right-turn-only lane when I am making a right turn from the lane to the left, which is an option for right or straight...

(invariably, it's a R0iDz D00d with a lifted pickup truck with an unnecessary set of auxiliary rear tires)

[Central Avenue]

I always wondered why they don't just put up permanent signs to the effect of "stop when signal is dark."

If it's an intersection where you want it to become a two-way stop, have one road as "proceed with caution when signal is dark."

[roadfro]

^ The problem comes in how often the sign would be applicable. Ideally, the signal is rarely dark...is a sign needed for so rare a circumstance.

Signs aren't always the best solution...

[Roadsguy]

Some intersections have folded stop signs that can be unfolded and bolted up when the power goes out.

[cpzilliacus]

Decades ago, Maryland SHA (and its predecessor agency, the SRC) had STOP signs (which were never covered) at the  "lower priority" road at some signalized intersections, with the implication being that the STOP signs were to be ignored when the signal was operating properly.  I think the priority road was determined by AADT or maybe functional classification but I am not 100% certain about that.

They were removed (and that was probably a good thing) many, many years ago.

This is yet another reason why I like the "priority road" and "end priority road" signage found in many European nations.

[agentsteel53]

Decades ago, Maryland SHA (and its predecessor agency, the SRC) had STOP signs (which were never covered) at the  "lower priority" road at some signalized intersections, with the implication being that the STOP signs were to be ignored when the signal was operating properly.  I think the priority road was determined by AADT or maybe functional classification but I am not 100% certain about that.

They were removed (and that was probably a good thing) many, many years ago.

This is yet another reason why I like the "priority road" and "end priority road" signage found in many European nations.

speaking of European nations, Italy among other places is really big on putting STOP signs with traffic lights.  Just in case the power goes out, but the average dumbass American has no idea what to do with a STOP sign and a green light being presented simultaneously.

[mgk920]

I agree that the best practice would be to somehow convert the USA to the European method (signs govern when signals are dark).

Also, at more major intersections, setting up barricades to create Michigan lefts are a solution, if the rest of the roadways are set up for that.

OTOH, one of the big advantages of roundabouts is that they keep working normally when the power goes out.



Mike

[cpzilliacus]

I agree that the best practice would be to somehow convert the USA to the European method (signs govern when signals are dark).

What a concept!

Also, at more major intersections, setting up barricades to create Michigan lefts are a solution, if the rest of the roadways are set up for that.

That has become increasingly common in Maryland.

OTOH, one of the big advantages of roundabouts is that they keep working normally when the power goes out.



Mike

Absolutely correct.  Same thing applies to many (not all) grade-separated interchanges.

[jeffandnicole]

I agree that the best practice would be to somehow convert the USA to the European method (signs govern when signals are dark).
OTOH, one of the big advantages of roundabouts is that they keep working normally when the power goes out.

So do conventional intersections with stop signs.

[realjd]

It sounds to me like the barricades cause confusion, which leads to caution. Just because people are making sketchy turns around them doesn't mean it is unsafe.

[roadman]

In Massachusetts, drivers encountering a powerless traffic signal are supposed to treat it as a four-way stop.

Of course, I can probably count on one hand the number of drivers that actually know that.

[flowmotion]

but the average dumbass American has no idea what to do with a STOP sign and a green light being presented simultaneously.

If there is conflicting signs/signals, I'd say the real dumasses are the traffic engineers. (Even the ridiculously easy American drivers license tests cover how to handle dead signals.)

This intersection was a lot of fun when the power went out. Six ways, lots of left turns, trolley lines. Most people at least tried to take turns:
http://goo.gl/maps/JGCB0

[Scott5114]

I always wondered why they don't just put up permanent signs to the effect of "stop when signal is dark."

I have actually seen such signs posted before.

In Europe, some countries have a "priority road" system. If I understand it correctly, the road with priority gets a special yellow diamond sign posted on its signal and gets the right-of-way. If your street doesn't have the diamond, you have to yield to traffic on the other street. Still other countries always post a stop or a yield sign at signalized intersections. The law says that the stoplight overrides these signs, so the only time they are in force is when the light is out.

[1995hoo]

but the average dumbass American has no idea what to do with a STOP sign and a green light being presented simultaneously.

If there is conflicting signs/signals, I'd say the real dumasses are the traffic engineers. (Even the ridiculously easy American drivers license tests cover how to handle dead signals.)

....

I'm pretty sure that was not covered on the test when I originally took it in the 1980s or when I had to take the knowledge test again in 2003 (due to two moving violations). It may–and if it isn't, it certainly should–be on there now. But that's part of the problem with the way we do things in this country: Once you get your driver's license, you generally don't have to be re-tested for knowledge. Problem is, standards of care change, but you get a lot of people who assume that what they were taught way back when is still valid. One prime example that always comes to my mind is antilock brakes. A lot of people learned to pump the brakes and don't understand that with ABS you don't do that. Another example might be that nowadays they teach following distance by time instead of by car lengths (my wife learned car lengths and when I explained how they teach it now, she thought it sounded idiotic).

We require people practicing various occupations to take continuing education courses to remain certified–teachers and attorneys come to mind most readily for me (mainly because I'm an attorney and my mother was a teacher), and I assume doctors probably fall into the same category. Aside from lack of political will to do it, I don't see why driving should be different, given that a mistake while driving has potentially dangerous or fatal consequences for other people.

[agentsteel53]

A lot of people learned to pump the brakes and don't understand that with ABS you don't do that.

except when your ABS does not kick in, in which case you do need to pump manually, at least once.  I stopped myself from skidding into a busy intersection in Fairbanks this past March by doing precisely that.  I don't know why the ABS didn't kick in, but then was not the time for philosophical discussion. 

the more general lesson taught should be "if your brakes lock up, release and try again", which resolves to "pump brakes when no ABS" and also to "if ABS is working, keep foot depressed".

[SidS1045]

the best practice would be to somehow convert the USA to the European method (signs govern when signals are dark).

I believe that's already the case.  The hierarchy in every state I'm familiar with is:

1) Police officer
2) Traffic signals
3) Signs

But, as with so many other things, you're not going to remember it if you never use it.