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Preparations for 70 MPH speed limit in Maryland

Started by mcmc, August 19, 2015, 03:31:26 PM

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cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2015, 09:02:01 AM
Regarding froggie's comments, I think cpzilliacus was addressing noelbotevera's suggestion that Route 15 could be posted at 70 mph and listing what would have to occur before Maryland authorities would even consider the change. Replacing the roundabout would indeed be necessary under current Maryland law in that scenario (as froggie noted, of course). I think cpzilliacus was agreeing with my comment that they're not going to raise the speed limit on that segment and that his comment about widening the road was made in that context, not as a general comment on widening it.

Correct on all points.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.


cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2015, 07:26:36 AM
In general, I expect Maryland will be rather sparing in their posting of 70-mph speed limits, at least early on. Let's remember they were one of the last states to post 65 when the NMSL was loosened to allow that (though, in fairness, part of that was due to Gov. Schaefer's nonsensical intransigence on that issue).

There was plenty of intransigence on the part of certain members of the General Assembly as well.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 21, 2015, 09:25:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2015, 07:26:36 AM
In general, I expect Maryland will be rather sparing in their posting of 70-mph speed limits, at least early on. Let's remember they were one of the last states to post 65 when the NMSL was loosened to allow that (though, in fairness, part of that was due to Gov. Schaefer's nonsensical intransigence on that issue).

There was plenty of intransigence on the part of certain members of the General Assembly as well.

You would definitely know better than I would, especially as during the 1991—95 period I spent most of my time in Charlottesville (or Durham in the second half of 1995). I focused on the former governor because I seemed to recall he essentially told the General Assembly that it didn't matter what they did because he would veto any 65-mph bill and, if they overrode his veto, he'd ensure the people in charge at the SHA were people who would not raise any speed limits (essentially making said agency like Oregon's, I guess). My memory is probably not 100% accurate on all the details, but I remember Schaefer being particularly adamant as to this issue, and I also remember how 65-mph limits came very quickly once Parris Glendening took over–from what I recall, Maryland posted 65 shortly before New York did, and both of them were among the last states to do it prior to the NMSL repeal in the fall of 1995.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

PHLBOS

Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2015, 08:49:41 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2015, 07:26:36 AM
In general, I expect Maryland will be rather sparing in their posting of 70-mph speed limits, at least early on. Let's remember they were one of the last states to post 65 when the NMSL was loosened to allow that (though, in fairness, part of that was due to Gov. Schaefer's nonsensical intransigence on that issue).

Wasn't it Maryland who posted those idiotic STILL! banners over their 55 mph speed limit signs?
From mid-1987 to late 1995, PA used to post large signs along freeways, shortly inside the state borders that read PENNSYVANIA MAXIMUM SPEED LIMIT STILL 55 MPH.  Bob Casey, Sr., who served as governor of the Keystone State from 1987-1994, was opposed to increasing PA's speed limit.

Once PA finally got on board the 65 (initially for rural Interstates) bandwagon (thanks to then-Gov. Tom Ridge); those signs were immediately taken down.  Post remnants of the now-long-gone sign along I-95 northbound in Delaware County, PA.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

1995hoo

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 21, 2015, 09:47:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 21, 2015, 08:49:41 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2015, 07:26:36 AM
In general, I expect Maryland will be rather sparing in their posting of 70-mph speed limits, at least early on. Let's remember they were one of the last states to post 65 when the NMSL was loosened to allow that (though, in fairness, part of that was due to Gov. Schaefer's nonsensical intransigence on that issue).

Wasn't it Maryland who posted those idiotic STILL! banners over their 55 mph speed limit signs?
From mid-1987 to late 1995, PA used to post large signs along freeways, shortly inside the state borders that read PENNSYVANIA MAXIMUM SPEED LIMIT STILL 55 MPH.  Bob Casey, Sr., who served as governor of the Keystone State from 1987-1994, was opposed to increasing PA's speed limit.

Once PA finally got on board the 65 (initially for rural Interstates) bandwagon (thanks to then-Gov. Tom Ridge); those signs were immediately taken down.  Post remnants of the now-long-gone sign along I-95 northbound in Delaware County, PA.

To me that sign would be far less obnoxious than the Maryland one I mentioned precisely because of the way it's worded–it clearly makes the motorist aware that this is a statewide law. The Maryland signs Rothman and I were discussing were simply small black-on-yellow auxiliary signs located above standard speed limit signs, and all the auxiliary signs said was "STILL!" I can't find a picture online to post here.

(This is not to say I didn't find Pennsylvania's speed limit laws obnoxious, of course–just that I think the sign you mention would come across as a less of a middle-finger gesture.)
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jeffandnicole

NJ was the last of the contiguous 48 states to go from 55 to 65, but they never posted such annoying signage prior to that point.  Unfortunately, when they went to 65, they did post large 'FINES DOUBLED - SPEEDING AND OTHER VIOLATIONS' signs after every 65 mph sign.  Lately though, I've noticed if one of those signs is removed (accidently or purposely), it's generally not replaced. 

I remember when Delaware posted 'Strictly Enforced' under all their 65 mph signs on DE 1.  They've all since been removed.

PHLBOS

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 21, 2015, 09:55:33 AMNJ was the last of the contiguous 48 states to go from 55 to 65
I believe CT holds that claim to fame.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Pink Jazz

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 21, 2015, 12:03:00 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 21, 2015, 09:55:33 AMNJ was the last of the contiguous 48 states to go from 55 to 65
I believe CT holds that claim to fame.

And still, Puerto Rico is the only U.S. territory that has speed limits greater than 55 mph (up to 65 mph on the tolled Autopistas).  However, I believe Puerto Rico is the only U.S. territory that has freeway standard roads.

1995hoo

Quote from: Pink Jazz on August 21, 2015, 01:12:18 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 21, 2015, 12:03:00 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 21, 2015, 09:55:33 AMNJ was the last of the contiguous 48 states to go from 55 to 65
I believe CT holds that claim to fame.

And still, Puerto Rico is the only U.S. territory that has speed limits greater than 55 mph (up to 65 mph on the tolled Autopistas).  However, I believe Puerto Rico is the only U.S. territory that has freeway standard roads.

DC

:bigass:
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Brandon

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2015, 01:35:57 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on August 21, 2015, 01:12:18 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 21, 2015, 12:03:00 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 21, 2015, 09:55:33 AMNJ was the last of the contiguous 48 states to go from 55 to 65
I believe CT holds that claim to fame.

And still, Puerto Rico is the only U.S. territory that has speed limits greater than 55 mph (up to 65 mph on the tolled Autopistas).  However, I believe Puerto Rico is the only U.S. territory that has freeway standard roads.

DC

:bigass:

Would one actually consider DC-295, I-395, I-295, I-695, and the sad stub of I-66 freeway standard?
/sarc
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

1995hoo

I'd consider I-295 south of the South Capitol Street interchange, especially the northbound side, to be reasonably up to standard, aside from some potholes. I certainly don't hesitate to do 65 mph on either side of that road except when I go past the speed cameras near Blue Plains.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

froggie

295 was built to the standards of the time (late '50s), but the shoulders and many of the ramp termini (especially at Malcolm X) are not up to today's standards.

PHLBOS

Jeffandnicole's earlier statement (& my earlier reply) was in reference to the 48 contiguous states, not territories nor districts.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Pink Jazz

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2015, 01:35:57 PM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on August 21, 2015, 01:12:18 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on August 21, 2015, 12:03:00 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 21, 2015, 09:55:33 AMNJ was the last of the contiguous 48 states to go from 55 to 65
I believe CT holds that claim to fame.

And still, Puerto Rico is the only U.S. territory that has speed limits greater than 55 mph (up to 65 mph on the tolled Autopistas).  However, I believe Puerto Rico is the only U.S. territory that has freeway standard roads.

DC

Washington D.C. is not a territory, but a federal district.

1995hoo

Quote from: Pink Jazz on August 21, 2015, 02:51:19 PM
Washington D.C. is not a territory, but a federal district.

That's why I used the big smiley you omitted when you quoted me!




Quote from: froggie on August 21, 2015, 02:02:26 PM
295 was built to the standards of the time (late '50s), but the shoulders and many of the ramp termini (especially at Malcolm X) are not up to today's standards.

Notice he didn't say "today's standards" and I hedged my comment by using the word "reasonably."
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

froggie

I did notice that, and technically considering Brandon only mentioned "freeway standard", all of the routes he cited meet "freeway standard".  My response was in part to your reply but also highlights one possible reason why we don't see a higher speed limit along I-295 (the only route, BTW, I'd consider posting at 55 or higher inside the District, Wilson Bridge notwithstanding).

1995hoo

Quote from: froggie on August 21, 2015, 04:12:43 PM
I did notice that, and technically considering Brandon only mentioned "freeway standard", all of the routes he cited meet "freeway standard".  My response was in part to your reply but also highlights one possible reason why we don't see a higher speed limit along I-295 (the only route, BTW, I'd consider posting at 55 or higher inside the District, Wilson Bridge notwithstanding).

Absolutely agreed on the bolded text, and even though I regularly drive 65 mph on there, if I were making the decisions I doubt I'd post it above 60 mph, and any such higher limit would be solely on the southern portion. Southbound I'd probably have it increase roughly at the point where you pass the new streetcar barn. In the northbound direction I'd probably have it drop to 50 or below as you come down the hill north of Malcolm X Avenue. There's no question the speed limit needs to be lower by the time you reach the South Capitol Street/Suitland Parkway interchange and the troublesome weave area just northeast of there between said interchange and the 11th Street Bridge/DC-295.

Of course southbound there's the issue of the slip-ramp style on-ramp located just south of the overpass above South Capitol Street followed in short order by the exit for Blue Plains, but the huge majority of the traffic I see on there has no real problem with that merge.

(BTW, in my earlier post I referred to the "South Capitol Street interchange." I was referring to the cloverleaf located near the Anacostia Metro stop; it serves South Capitol Street and the Douglass Bridge to the north and Suitland Parkway to the south. I think of it as the "South Capitol Street interchange" because if I use that interchange, 95% of the time I'm coming from Nationals Park. I realized as I typed this reply that there is, of course, a southbound exit marked for South Capitol Street/Malcolm X Avenue/Bolling AFB–I think the sign now just says "JBAB" per the new name–where the road narrows to two lanes, but it's just an offramp rather than a full interchange. Still, I realized it was potentially an ambiguous reference!)

I understand why some people will hit 55 on the DC portion of the Clara Barton Parkway or on Canal Road when it's in one-way operation, but that's too fast for those roads. If you want to do 55 going that way, use the GW Parkway in Virginia.




Getting back to Maryland and 70-mph speed limits, I realized one reason I didn't know I-895 has a segment at 65 nowadays is that the last couple of times I've used that road, I've come southbound through the tunnel and then turned off onto I-97. I can't remember the last time I took it all the way to I-95 and I cannot remember what a safe speed would be on the ramp from I-895 to southbound I-95. But I'm certain the yellow advisory speed sign would recommend something less than 65. It seems kind of pointless to post a 70-mph speed limit for only five miles like that.

In the same vein, I kind of like what VDOT did with posting a higher speed limit in the HO/T lanes on the Beltway. If the I-95 Express Toll Lanes were extended further north, it might be an ideal place for a 70-mph speed limit in those lanes even if the mainline has something lower. But right now, with them ending just north of White Marsh, there doesn't seem to be much reason for it.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Brandon

Quote from: froggie on August 21, 2015, 04:12:43 PM
I did notice that, and technically considering Brandon only mentioned "freeway standard", all of the routes he cited meet "freeway standard".  My response was in part to your reply but also highlights one possible reason why we don't see a higher speed limit along I-295 (the only route, BTW, I'd consider posting at 55 or higher inside the District, Wilson Bridge notwithstanding).

I was also being snarky.  Obviously the "/sarc" is missed by many.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

1995hoo

Quote from: Brandon on August 21, 2015, 05:25:40 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 21, 2015, 04:12:43 PM
I did notice that, and technically considering Brandon only mentioned "freeway standard", all of the routes he cited meet "freeway standard".  My response was in part to your reply but also highlights one possible reason why we don't see a higher speed limit along I-295 (the only route, BTW, I'd consider posting at 55 or higher inside the District, Wilson Bridge notwithstanding).

I was also being snarky.  Obviously the "/sarc" is missed by many.

I saw it but wasn't sure what it meant!  :-(
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 21, 2015, 12:03:00 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 21, 2015, 09:55:33 AMNJ was the last of the contiguous 48 states to go from 55 to 65
I believe CT holds that claim to fame.

Wow. October 1998. I had always thought NJ had that title. I think they permitted 65 starting May of 1998.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2015, 09:47:03 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on August 21, 2015, 09:25:36 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 21, 2015, 07:26:36 AM
In general, I expect Maryland will be rather sparing in their posting of 70-mph speed limits, at least early on. Let's remember they were one of the last states to post 65 when the NMSL was loosened to allow that (though, in fairness, part of that was due to Gov. Schaefer's nonsensical intransigence on that issue).

There was plenty of intransigence on the part of certain members of the General Assembly as well.

You would definitely know better than I would, especially as during the 1991—95 period I spent most of my time in Charlottesville (or Durham in the second half of 1995). I focused on the former governor because I seemed to recall he essentially told the General Assembly that it didn't matter what they did because he would veto any 65-mph bill and, if they overrode his veto, he'd ensure the people in charge at the SHA were people who would not raise any speed limits (essentially making said agency like Oregon's, I guess). My memory is probably not 100% accurate on all the details, but I remember Schaefer being particularly adamant as to this issue, and I also remember how 65-mph limits came very quickly once Parris Glendening took over–from what I recall, Maryland posted 65 shortly before New York did, and both of them were among the last states to do it prior to the NMSL repeal in the fall of 1995.

That is reasonably consistent with my understanding.

Curious too, since Schaefer (unlike Glendening) was usually a pro-highways governor (most of the upgrading of I-270 in Montgomery County; I-68 between Cumberland and Hancock; and the conversion of U.S. 50/U.S. 301 between the Bay Bridge and Queenstown from a miserably congested four-lane arterial with plenty of at-grade signalized intersections to the six-lane expressway-type road that's there now were all completed under his administration).  The project planning study for the ICC was initiated under Schaefer (that Glendening later killed), though Schaefer returned the favor by blocking (as Comptroller) consideration of Glendening's proposals to sell the ICC right-of-way.

Schaefer also got the Baltimore Central Light Rail designed and built (albeit with long single-track sections) during his years in office as governor.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

MASTERNC

#46
My thoughts on what roads might be posted for 70 MPH:

I-68: Definitely west of Cumberland, maybe they will cut off at the Savage Mountain grade.  I think the sections east of the 40 MPH Cumberland viaduct might be a little too narrow and windy.

I-70: At least from PA to Exit 24 and east of Frederick to US 40 near Elicott City.  There are too many close exits in Hagerstown and Frederick to post at 70 MPH, plus traffic is much heavier.

I-95: It is definitely possible to see 70 MPH north of White Marsh and maybe between the Beltways, but traffic counts concern me (prevailing speeds are definitely above 70 though).

I-81: I don't see 70 being posted yet.  The Hagerstown area definitely will stay 60 MPH due to the number of exits and short acceleration lanes.  I don't see the area south of I-70 being raised, at least until the Potomac River bridges are redone.  Going north, I would assume it stays 65 unless PA raises I-81 to 70.

I-83: The road might be a bit narrow for 70 MPH if I remember the section north of Hunt Valley.

I-97: Might be too urban to raise the speed limit.

I can't think of many US or MD routes that could take 70 MPH (maybe MD 100 or US 50 between DC and Annapolis).  Definitely no 3DIs stand out.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: MASTERNC on August 21, 2015, 07:01:17 PM
Definitely no 3DIs stand out.

Though in the pre-NMSL days, I-495 in Prince George's County was posted at 70 MPH from (roughly) the Woodrow Wilson Bridge around to U.S. 50 (John Hanson Highway). Not sure it's a good idea now, though the 85th percentile speed is way above the posted 55 MPH limit. Most of Maryland's part of the Capital Beltway could be 60 or 65, save for the "roller coaster" section between I-270Y (I-270 Spur, Exit 38 on the Inner Loop) and Md. 97 (Georgia Avenue, Exit 31).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

noelbotevera

Some MD, US, I- routes that I remember that work for 70 MPH:

MD 100 east of I-95 to east terminus
US 29 south of MD 100 to ICC or MD 650 (New Hampshire Avenue). The section between MD 100 and I-70 is too congested to be considered for 70 MPH.
I-95 between I-495 and I-195
I-95 Between I-695 (Exit 64) to DE State Line
I-370 whole length
MD 200 whole length
I-270 between I-370 and MD 109
I-81 whole length
I-70 between PA State Line to US 40 (Exit 32)
I-70 between Exit 55 to US 29
MD 32 between I-97 and I-95

jeffandnicole

Quote from: MASTERNC on August 21, 2015, 07:01:17 PM
I-95: ...maybe between the Beltways, but traffic counts concern me (prevailing speeds are definitely above 70 though).

Wasn't this area one of the last to receive the 65 mph signage?  I really don't see stretch of highway being signed for 70. 

North of White Marsh though - definitely (other than the Susquahanna bridge area).



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.