NTTA is soliciting bids to widen the DNT from 3x3 to 4x4 from SH 121 Sam Rayburn Tollway to US 380. US 380 is the current north terminus of the main lanes (although frontage roads extend further north).
This should be relatively easy since it was designed to be widened into the median space. The bad news is that it will be impossible or impractical to make it any wider.
The solicitation is listed online.
https://www.nttamarketplace.org/bso/external/publicBids.sdo (https://www.nttamarketplace.org/bso/external/publicBids.sdo)
There is also a notice in today's Dallas Morning News.
http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/AARoads/20220218-DNT-expansion-SRT-380.png (http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/AARoads/20220218-DNT-expansion-SRT-380.png)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdallasfreeways.com%2Fdfwfreeways%2FAARoads%2F20220218-DNT-expansion-SRT-380.png&hash=4648fc0b63eb5898a3943690d4b71a43c5b69779)
With the US 380 overpass nearing completion, that will just hasten the build-out of Prosper and the north part of Frisco.
It looks like you might be able to squeeze a fifth lane in at some point in the future but it would be very tight.
A 4x4 configuration from the SRT to US-380 is possible, but it won't be all that easy or cheap to build. Some of the 4x4 configuration can indeed be done by using up the bits of median along much of the stretch. It's still likely some bridges and ramps would have to be modified if the road is to be 4x4 lanes the entire way.
I don't think a 5x5 configuration is possible at all, not without a major tear-down and re-build -one that would include altering the frontage roads. Within the boundaries set by the frontage roads I don't think there is even enough room to add support piers for any elevated viaducts for additional capacity years or decades later.
Webber has been awarded this contract for $127 million. 40 months seems long for construction, but construction schedules always seem to be extended these days.
https://newsroom.ferrovial.com/en/press_releases/north-dallas-expansion/ (https://newsroom.ferrovial.com/en/press_releases/north-dallas-expansion/)
QuoteFerrovial, through Webber, its US construction subsidiary, has been awarded the contract to widen a 15-kilometre section of the Dallas North Tollway, in Texas. The North Texas Tollway Authority (NTTA) has selected the company to execute this contract worth USD 127 million (about €119 million).
The work is scheduled to begin in September and take an estimated 40 months. It will increase the road's capacity and help alleviate congestion in north Dallas while improving connections to Collin, Denton and Grayson counties.
As part of the project, Webber will widen the existing toll road from three to four lanes in each direction. The work will include widening 22 bridges as well as upgrading overpasses and building new ramps. Safety lighting will also be upgraded and signage will be replaced along the corridor.
The bigger question is, when is the extension to Celina happening? With the ongoing Colin County boom, they need to get a move on it ASAP.
According to the Celina, TX city web site the NTTA has started initial construction of Phase 4B of the Dallas North Tollway. What I mean by "initial" is that the first piece of construction is a 2 lane road, presumably one of the outboard frontage roads. They're saying this initial 2-lane road will be finished in 2023. Phase 4B is the final phase of the DNT extension going North of Celina to the Grayson County line.
https://www.celina-tx.gov/1117/Dallas-North-Tollway
The Grayson County Tollway will be what goes from the Grayson County line up to US-75 on the North side of Sherman, TX. There is a preferred alignment set for that toll road. But I can't tell when construction might begin on things like 2 lane frontage roads to secure the right of way.
It goes up to FM 121 west of Gunter now, it's not open yet - here's an aerial from June 13
(https://i.imgur.com/gqDMGDs.png)
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 15, 2022, 10:48:27 PM
According to the Celina, TX city web site the NTTA has started initial construction of Phase 4B of the Dallas North Tollway. What I mean by "initial" is that the first piece of construction is a 2 lane road, presumably one of the outboard frontage roads. They're saying this initial 2-lane road will be finished in 2023. Phase 4B is the final phase of the DNT extension going North of Celina to the Grayson County line.
https://www.celina-tx.gov/1117/Dallas-North-Tollway
The Grayson County Tollway will be what goes from the Grayson County line up to US-75 on the North side of Sherman, TX. There is a preferred alignment set for that toll road. But I can't tell when construction might begin on things like 2 lane frontage roads to secure the right of way.
The Grayson County Tollway will be what goes from the Grayson County line up to US-75 on the North side of
Denison TX. There is a preferred alignment set for that toll road.
ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/par/grayson_tollway/gct_route/overall_map.pdf
If, instead of eventually terminating the DNT at US 75 in Denison, TX (ironically, my late stepfather's last name was Denison), they decided to extend the DNT into Oklahoma, possibly to terminate at US 70? Could it be done?
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 23, 2022, 12:22:54 PM
If, instead of eventually terminating the DNT at US 75 in Denison, TX (ironically, my late stepfather's last name was Denison), they decided to extend the DNT into Oklahoma, possibly to terminate at US 70? Could it be done?
It
COULD but it would require crossing the lake. Pretty pricey. I don't think it makes a lot of sense economically. Not to mention the Oklahoma commitment required.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 23, 2022, 12:22:54 PM
If, instead of eventually terminating the DNT at US 75 in Denison, TX (ironically, my late stepfather's last name was Denison), they decided to extend the DNT into Oklahoma, possibly to terminate at US 70? Could it be done?
They could, but there's no reason to. The Denison Dam is only a couple miles west of the current 69/75 alignment - if a new routing was proposed to go across Lake Texoma at one of its widest points, the bridge alone would easily run into the hundreds of millions of dollars.
I've proposed this on another thread, but Cooke and Denton County need to get involved and propose a west spur of the DNT to connect into I-35, somewhere north of Winstar. (around MM7 on I-35) This would provide a much needed NW-SE highway alignment that doesn't currently exist, and an alternate to I-35 for traffic headed to the northern DFW suburbs. Right now, with the proposed Grayson County Tollway, and TX 289/Preston Rd, there are several alignments that parallel US 75 already, despite I-35 carrying more interregional traffic. I get that Gainesville is but a blip compared to Sherman/Denison, but there's no reason to think development won't fan out across north Texas from Tioga/Pilot Point over to Van Alstyne.
Quote from: austrini on June 22, 2022, 04:34:29 PM
It goes up to FM 121 west of Gunter now, it's not open yet - here's an aerial from June 13
(https://i.imgur.com/gqDMGDs.png)
None of it north of FM 428 is open yet, but it's nice to see the progress.
Quote from: I-35 on June 23, 2022, 02:24:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 23, 2022, 12:22:54 PM
If, instead of eventually terminating the DNT at US 75 in Denison, TX (ironically, my late stepfather's last name was Denison), they decided to extend the DNT into Oklahoma, possibly to terminate at US 70? Could it be done?
They could, but there's no reason to. The Denison Dam is only a couple miles west of the current 69/75 alignment - if a new routing was proposed to go across Lake Texoma at one of its widest points, the bridge alone would easily run into the hundreds of millions of dollars.
I've proposed this on another thread, but Cooke and Denton County need to get involved and propose a west spur of the DNT to connect into I-35, somewhere north of Winstar. (around MM7 on I-35) This would provide a much needed NW-SE highway alignment that doesn't currently exist, and an alternate to I-35 for traffic headed to the northern DFW suburbs. Right now, with the proposed Grayson County Tollway, and TX 289/Preston Rd, there are several alignments that parallel US 75 already, despite I-35 carrying more interregional traffic. I get that Gainesville is but a blip compared to Sherman/Denison, but there's no reason to think development won't fan out across north Texas from Tioga/Pilot Point over to Van Alstyne.
I wholeheartedly agree that this should be done but, unfortunately, I don't see Oklahoma getting involved for even a few miles in Love County. Is there a good place between Gainesville and the state line where this extension could terminate?
Quote from: dchristy on June 26, 2022, 11:57:31 AM
Quote from: I-35 on June 23, 2022, 02:24:20 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 23, 2022, 12:22:54 PM
If, instead of eventually terminating the DNT at US 75 in Denison, TX (ironically, my late stepfather's last name was Denison), they decided to extend the DNT into Oklahoma, possibly to terminate at US 70? Could it be done?
They could, but there's no reason to. The Denison Dam is only a couple miles west of the current 69/75 alignment - if a new routing was proposed to go across Lake Texoma at one of its widest points, the bridge alone would easily run into the hundreds of millions of dollars.
I've proposed this on another thread, but Cooke and Denton County need to get involved and propose a west spur of the DNT to connect into I-35, somewhere north of Winstar. (around MM7 on I-35) This would provide a much needed NW-SE highway alignment that doesn't currently exist, and an alternate to I-35 for traffic headed to the northern DFW suburbs. Right now, with the proposed Grayson County Tollway, and TX 289/Preston Rd, there are several alignments that parallel US 75 already, despite I-35 carrying more interregional traffic. I get that Gainesville is but a blip compared to Sherman/Denison, but there's no reason to think development won't fan out across north Texas from Tioga/Pilot Point over to Van Alstyne.
I wholeheartedly agree that this should be done but, unfortunately, I don't see Oklahoma getting involved for even a few miles in Love County. Is there a good place between Gainesville and the state line where this extension could terminate?
There would only be about 4-5 miles in Oklahoma, so honestly I wonder if NTTA could run the facility under an agreement with OTA. Or just make the 4-5 mile stem into Oklahoma an untolled portion. The Chickasaws may well put money in for a new Winstar Blvd eastern interchange, plus it opens up that area for development near the casino. The northern end of the spur could be a scaled down version of the TX130/IH-35 wye interchange north of Georgetown.
If it needed to end near Gainesville, tying it into the area around the old factory outlets makes some sense, but that takes it a few miles farther west than need be.
I don't think a West leg of the DNT crossing the state line into Oklahoma will feasible at all for at least the next 10-20 years. ODOT has its funding problems. The OTA is biting off pretty much all they can chew with the Access Oklahoma plan. While the Chickasaws (and their non-tribe member partners) are bringing in a lot of money at the Winstar complex I wouldn't expect them to help fund a super highway project costing possibly hundreds of millions of dollars.
The chances of any West leg of the DNT being built would be best if that leg was contained within Texas to get around Oklahoma's highway funding issues. But even in that case the route options are kind of limited. Ray Roberts Lake has a big footprint. That would push the East-West split of the two legs miles North of the Grayson County line. It would have to go that far North to get a diagonal angle around the NE side of the Lake, probably even skirting North of Collinsville. Then it would be a matter of going diagonally North to meet I-35 just South of the Red River crossing.
I think needed improvements to US-82 would be a competing mouth to feed if this West leg was built as a freeway. As a toll road it might be easier to do.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 27, 2022, 09:08:41 PM
I don't think a West leg of the DNT crossing the state line into Oklahoma will feasible at all for at least the next 10-20 years. ODOT has its funding problems. The OTA is biting off pretty much all they can chew with the Access Oklahoma plan. While the Chickasaws (and their non-tribe member partners) are bringing in a lot of money at the Winstar complex I wouldn't expect them to help fund a super highway project costing possibly hundreds of millions of dollars.
The chances of any West leg of the DNT being built would be best if that leg was contained within Texas to get around Oklahoma's highway funding issues. But even in that case the route options are kind of limited. Ray Roberts Lake has a big footprint. That would push the East-West split of the two legs miles North of the Grayson County line. It would have to go that far North to get a diagonal angle around the NE side of the Lake, probably even skirting North of Collinsville. Then it would be a matter of going diagonally North to meet I-35 just South of the Red River crossing.
I think needed improvements to US-82 would be a competing mouth to feed if this West leg was built as a freeway. As a toll road it might be easier to do.
The routing I had basically napkin sketched was angling from the northern Denton/Collin county line area and north of Tioga (thus northeast of the body of Ray Roberts Lake), but southwest of Whitesboro, providing a bypass for eastbound 82 traffic to the northern DFW suburbs. North of 82 is pretty open, if not rolling terrain, up near Callisburg. The genesis of this idea was providing some alternative to I-35 through the Lewisville/Denton areas to areas due north. The expansion of I-35 to eight lanes through Cooke County may well be the solution to the mess that is there now.
The Dallas North Tollway would turn into the Grayson County Tollway by the time it reached FM-121 to the East of Tioga. I think the toll road would have to go almost as far North as FM-902, just West of Dorchester, before the East-West split could occur. Then it could run on a diagonal between Collinsville and Whitesboro going toward the I-35 Red River Crossing.
I think there is so much development happening in the Northern reaches of the DFW metroplex that widening I-35 to 4 lanes in both directions won't be enough for the long term. The DFW metro seems to be a magnet for people relocating from other regions of the nation. The worsening water crisis in the Southwest US may spark even more migration to Texas. That may make a West leg of the DNT to I-35 necessary. I strongly believe US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman needs to be upgraded to Interstate standards. TX DOT has done some improvement work over the years, but I think they're falling behind and about to be staring at another US-380 style problem. The US-377 corridor will see more pressure applied to it; it's one of the main routes from DFW up to the Lake Texoma area.
Major investments have been announced for Sherman.
Texas Instruments is building a potential $ 30 billion semiconductor wafer plant: https://www.ti.com/about-ti/company/ti-at-a-glance/manufacturing/sherman.html
GlobalWafers has just announced a $ 5 billion wafer plant: https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2022/06/globalwafers-selects-sherman-texas-new-semiconductor-silicon-wafer-site
This is a boatload of high paying jobs going to a relatively small city, potentially with a lot of trickle-down effect on other industries in the area.
It seems like Sherman could become a boomtown over the next few decades.
Those big semiconductor wafer facilities might add a little more push for a Northern extension of I-45. Or if not in name, at least an Interstate-class corridor thru Sherman on North to either Tulsa or Big Cabin. Those multi-billion dollar wafer facilities would add more pressure to further improve the US-82 East-West corridor too.
With a growth of higher paying technical jobs in the Sherman area it's also likely there might be a boom of sorts for building vacation and recreational properties around Lake Texoma.
I took a trip to the northwest corner of Collin County back on April 30th. Right now, the phase 4B of the Dallas North Tollway construction is taking place where they are constructing a two-lane frontage road right up to the Collin-Greyson-Denton county lines. This is expected to be completed by late 2022/early 2023, and will eventually become the southbound frontage road. When you look at the area now, it's practically county, but give it a few years, and I see housing developments.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 28, 2022, 04:36:40 PM
The Dallas North Tollway would turn into the Grayson County Tollway by the time it reached FM-121 to the East of Tioga. I think the toll road would have to go almost as far North as FM-902, just West of Dorchester, before the East-West split could occur. Then it could run on a diagonal between Collinsville and Whitesboro going toward the I-35 Red River Crossing.
I think there is so much development happening in the Northern reaches of the DFW metroplex that widening I-35 to 4 lanes in both directions won't be enough for the long term. The DFW metro seems to be a magnet for people relocating from other regions of the nation. The worsening water crisis in the Southwest US may spark even more migration to Texas. That may make a West leg of the DNT to I-35 necessary. I strongly believe US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman needs to be upgraded to Interstate standards. TX DOT has done some improvement work over the years, but I think they're falling behind and about to be staring at another US-380 style problem. The US-377 corridor will see more pressure applied to it; it's one of the main routes from DFW up to the Lake Texoma area.
I just drove US-377 from Whitesboro down to Aubrey this morning. Lots of traffic on this two lane highway with speeds around 50 mph much of the time, even in the more rural areas. In my opinion, serious consideration needs to be given to making this a four lanes. Is this even under consideration?
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 28, 2022, 04:36:40 PM
The Dallas North Tollway would turn into the Grayson County Tollway by the time it reached FM-121 to the East of Tioga. I think the toll road would have to go almost as far North as FM-902, just West of Dorchester, before the East-West split could occur. Then it could run on a diagonal between Collinsville and Whitesboro going toward the I-35 Red River Crossing.
I think there is so much development happening in the Northern reaches of the DFW metroplex that widening I-35 to 4 lanes in both directions won't be enough for the long term. The DFW metro seems to be a magnet for people relocating from other regions of the nation. The worsening water crisis in the Southwest US may spark even more migration to Texas. That may make a West leg of the DNT to I-35 necessary. I strongly believe US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman needs to be upgraded to Interstate standards. TX DOT has done some improvement work over the years, but I think they're falling behind and about to be staring at another US-380 style problem. The US-377 corridor will see more pressure applied to it; it's one of the main routes from DFW up to the Lake Texoma area.
Agreed on US 82, it's sort of this hybrid expressway that really needs a full upgrade between at least I-35 and US 75. I don't know if there is room for flyovers at the US 75 interchange, but the 'upgrade' they are doing to the existing volleyball design suggests that it will not be getting that treatment.
Quote from: Chris on June 28, 2022, 04:44:31 PM
Major investments have been announced for Sherman.
Texas Instruments is building a potential $ 30 billion semiconductor wafer plant: https://www.ti.com/about-ti/company/ti-at-a-glance/manufacturing/sherman.html
GlobalWafers has just announced a $ 5 billion wafer plant: https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2022/06/globalwafers-selects-sherman-texas-new-semiconductor-silicon-wafer-site
This is a boatload of high paying jobs going to a relatively small city, potentially with a lot of trickle-down effect on other industries in the area.
It seems like Sherman could become a boomtown over the next few decades.
Sherman's Road Infrastructure is currently not able to accommodate additional traffic. Capacity and also Safety Improvements are needed and have been needed for decades.
Quote from: dchristy on June 29, 2022, 10:17:10 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 28, 2022, 04:36:40 PM
The Dallas North Tollway would turn into the Grayson County Tollway by the time it reached FM-121 to the East of Tioga. I think the toll road would have to go almost as far North as FM-902, just West of Dorchester, before the East-West split could occur. Then it could run on a diagonal between Collinsville and Whitesboro going toward the I-35 Red River Crossing.
I think there is so much development happening in the Northern reaches of the DFW metroplex that widening I-35 to 4 lanes in both directions won't be enough for the long term. The DFW metro seems to be a magnet for people relocating from other regions of the nation. The worsening water crisis in the Southwest US may spark even more migration to Texas. That may make a West leg of the DNT to I-35 necessary. I strongly believe US-82 between Gainesville and Sherman needs to be upgraded to Interstate standards. TX DOT has done some improvement work over the years, but I think they're falling behind and about to be staring at another US-380 style problem. The US-377 corridor will see more pressure applied to it; it's one of the main routes from DFW up to the Lake Texoma area.
I just drove US-377 from Whitesboro down to Aubrey this morning. Lots of traffic on this two lane highway with speeds around 50 mph much of the time, even in the more rural areas. In my opinion, serious consideration needs to be given to making this a four lanes. Is this even under consideration?
Not serious. They have in Grayson County a Study for Super 2 North of Whitesboro. Hopefully they Preserve the Right Of Way for The Willis Bridge so they can Twin it. All of Denton County includes a Study to Widen U.S. 377 for Continuous Passing Lanes, possibly Divided.
The situation with US-377 is arguably pretty ridiculous. Just north of the TX-114 intersection in Roanoke US-377 drops down to 2 lanes and stays that way until entering Denton. Then it's 2 lanes only from its split with US-380 on North up to the Red River.
That whole thing should be either 4-lane divided or 5 lane undivided with the 5th lane being a center turn lane. Existing traffic levels are pretty heavy for a mere 2-lane highway. Plus US-377 is almost the only Red River crossing between I-35 and US-75. The SH-91 crossing over Denison Dam is almost a stone's throw from US-75.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 01, 2022, 10:59:53 PM
That whole thing should be either 4-lane divided or 5 lane undivided with the 5th lane being a center turn lane. Existing traffic levels are pretty heavy for a mere 2-lane highway. Plus US-377 is almost the only Red River crossing between I-35 and US-75. The SH-91 crossing over Denison Dam is almost a stone's throw from US-75.
The current plan has it as 4 lanes by 2028 until end of plan in 2045 with a request to AASHTO to realign the US 377 designation along the interstate, like US 77 elsewhere, and giving up roadway maintenance to to the cities. It's behind, on one hand because budget and on the other because Argyle won't annex the very tiny part of it that's not in a city already. I should say this is the part of US 377 between Denton and Roanoke. The part north of Denton isn't 4 lanes until 2037(? I think).
The way it goes is like this. City approves thousands of homes and strip malls for yummy property tax revenue, Aubrey's got like 4,000 houses going in. If you don't believe me just grab sentinel hub imagery. State is like, wtf Aubrey, are you going to pay us to widen this regionally important road that suddenly is over capacity? City is like lol no. Bye. State says, okay, 2037 then, BYE. (source: am regional transportation planner, formerly Collin County GIS/Planning)
Promotion of big residential subdivisions (for lots of property tax revenue and to bolster a more "desirable" voting demographic) while doing little to nothing to improve capacity of arterial streets and highways is a familiar tune being played out in other parts of the nation.
It sounds exactly like the crap going on in Colorado Springs. Big developments with dozens of high priced homes get plopped onto the landscape. These subdivisions will have their own nice looking, landscaped streets -some of which are even 4-lane divided. All that empties out onto main streets or highways that haven't had real substantial capacity improvements in decades. The few improvements they're actually making, such as piece-meal upgrades of Powers Blvd intersections, aren't delivering much in the way of improved traffic movement. That's because their pace of improvement is so damn slow it can't catch up to the sheer amount of traffic growth.
US-24 going NE out of the 'Springs is one example. The town of Falcon has grown a lot in the past 20 years. There is hardly any rural gap left between Falcon and the East edge of Colorado Springs. The remaining empty spaces there and by the Black Forest are going to fill in with development. The situation on US-24 is just going to get even more dangerous. CDOT isn't going to do a damn thing about it though.
Blink and you'll miss it.
The new section north of FM 428 is already striped and has signage installed. I expect it to be open all the way up to FM 121 and into Grayson County by the first of October.
This is only one of the frontage roads, mind you, but a commuting gamechanger when combined with the 380 overpass.
Channel 8 in North Texas posted this article about the possibility that the Dallas North Tollway will ever become a freeway.
https://www.wfaa.com/article/traffic/driving-dfw/dallas-north-tollway-freeway-toll-increase-over-time-why/287-52283bba-dce8-4911-a333-53e973942e71?ref=exit-recirc (https://www.wfaa.com/article/traffic/driving-dfw/dallas-north-tollway-freeway-toll-increase-over-time-why/287-52283bba-dce8-4911-a333-53e973942e71?ref=exit-recirc)
The short answer: Not sooner than 2049 and probably never.
This is what happens when a project is subsumed into a system, and all toll roads in the system can remain tolled until all bonds are retired. NTTA took on massive debt for its "concession fee" to build the Sam Rayburn Tollway, which makes retirement of its bonds impossible anytime soon.
Also, the Dallas North Tollway from downtown to Bush Turnpike was built to very low standards, so ongoing work is needed to fix deficiencies. At some point in the future the entire section will need full pavement replacement. Only a short section near I-35E has already received full pavement replacement.
NTTA carries far more debt than HCTRA in Houston. HCTRA is in a better position to remove tolls, but I'm not very hopeful for that happening in my lifetime because governments just won't give up the money.
Quote from: MaxConcrete on June 06, 2023, 09:12:39 PMAlso, the Dallas North Tollway from downtown to Bush Turnpike was built to very low standards, so ongoing work is needed to fix deficiencies. At some point in the future the entire section will need full pavement replacement. Only a short section near I-35E has already received full pavement replacement.
I have to agree with you as it doesn't fit Interstate standards. There are hardly any shoulders between the George Bush and I-635, and just gets worse south of I-635, making it one of my least favorite (and thankfully, rarely driven) road segments in Dallas. Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_North_Tollway):
QuoteThe initial segment of the tollway ran from Interstate 35E to Royal Lane along an old St. Louis Southwestern Railway corridor. The right-of-way is generally 100 feet (30 m) along this segment, one of the narrowest controlled-access roads in Texas. The segment was completed in June 1968 and toll was originally 20 cents. The tollway was later extended to Briargrove Lane in 1987, to Headquarters Drive in 1994, to S.H. 121 and Gaylord Parkway in 2004, and to US 380 in 2007. The extensions generally parallel S.H. 289, also known as Preston Road. The "DNT Extension Phase 3," which runs from State Highway 121 to U.S. Highway 380, opened in mid-2007.
I don't think there is any practical way for the Dallas North Tollway between I-35E and I-635 to be brought up to Interstate standards and/or add any additional lanes. There just isn't any room. The existing 6-lane roadway is crammed in there about as tight as it can get.
The only way that toll road segment could be expanded to have proper inboard and outboard shoulders as well as any additional lanes is by putting the whole thing into a pair of deep bore tunnels. Of course that probably cost tens of billions of dollars. And for what gain? The DNT is pretty important going North of LBJ Freeway thru Addison and Frisco. But going South of LBJ Freeway I think I-35E and North Central Expressway do far more to move traffic in/out of downtown.
Look on either side of the DNT between downtown and LBJ and you will see the backyards of some very wealthy and influential people. Good luck getting eminent domain on those properties. It'll be tied up in court for decades.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2023, 02:42:02 PM
I don't think there is any practical way for the Dallas North Tollway between I-35E and I-635 to be brought up to Interstate standards and/or add any additional lanes. There just isn't any room. The existing 6-lane roadway is crammed in there about as tight as it can get.
The only way that toll road segment could be expanded to have proper inboard and outboard shoulders as well as any additional lanes is by putting the whole thing into a pair of deep bore tunnels. Of course that probably cost tens of billions of dollars. And for what gain? The DNT is pretty important going North of LBJ Freeway thru Addison and Frisco. But going South of LBJ Freeway I think I-35E and North Central Expressway do far more to move traffic in/out of downtown.
They could remove the two center lanes and dig out a lower level that could have 3-4 lanes each way and keep the top two lanes each way for local traffic. Could be an idea local residents could get behind as it might lessen road noise. Expensive requirements for exhaust mitigation wouldn't be needed as it would be open air kind of how some parts of the LBJ express lanes are. It'd still be an incredible expensive endeavor and I'd rather them implement variable tolling based on congestion levels and add a lower level to the central expressway before they would consider that here.
While we're on the topic of fairy tales throw in a five stack at the LBJ for good measure.
Seriously though I doubt much is done. At the most maybe they would consider variable tolls during rush hour to keep traffic moving but that could result in an increase of local traffic.
I can't even remember for sure when the last time it was that I drove on that segment of the DNT. It probably has to be around 10 years. I've driven on other super highways going in/out of downtown Dallas a lot more than that.
Quote from: Road Hog on June 07, 2023, 07:19:16 PMLook on either side of the DNT between downtown and LBJ and you will see the backyards of some very wealthy and influential people. Good luck getting eminent domain on those properties. It'll be tied up in court for decades.
The University Park/Highland Park area, almost without exception, have homes that are worth at least $1 million. Having said that, these homes are nicely decorated during the holidays, and you can take a horse carriage ride during the holidays to see the lights.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 07, 2023, 11:21:04 PMI can't even remember for sure when the last time it was that I drove on that segment of the DNT. It probably has to be around 10 years. I've driven on other super highways going in/out of downtown Dallas a lot more than that.
It's usually either to get to Dallas Love Field or US-75 was unbelievably clogged up that DNT was the recommended alternative to get downtown.
The DNT going South of LBJ Freeway is one of my least favorite roads to take in the DFW area -well, at least as long as we're talking about limited access highways. There are many surface streets in the DFW area I really dislike. Getting stuck in traffic on Beltline Road in the Addison area could be a Tenth Circle of Hell.
The Dallas Morning News reported today (https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2023/12/18/dnt-expansion-north-could-start-in-the-spring-pending-ntta-vote/) that the NTTA is slated to approve the start of work in spring 2024 to extend the tollway main lanes 13.7 miles north of US 380.
The frontage roads are already in place for phase 4a, which is six miles from US 380 to FM 428. The right-of-way is 400 feet wide. Finally (north of US 380), the NTTA acquired a decent right-of-way width for the tollway. The intersection with the Collin County Outer Loop is near the north end of this section. I don't know about the frontage road status north of FM 428.
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Tollway expansion north could start in the spring, pending NTTA vote
The 13.7 mile roadway will have six lanes, improving connectivity for a growing area of the state.
The Dallas North Tollway project to extend the road north from U.S. 380 to the Grayson County line might start in the spring, if the North Texas Tollway Authority gives a nod of approval during its Dec. 20 board meeting.
Michael Rey, media relations manager for NTTA, said if approved, work for the Phase 4 Corridor Project will begin in the spring of 2024.
According to records filed with the state, the NTTA funded roadway project is expected to cost $183 million.
Rey said the 13.7 miles of roadway will include construction of a six-lane urban tollway with three lanes in each direction.
Phase 4A, about 6 miles, will begin at U.S. 380 to Farm-to-Market 428; Phase 4B, about 7.7 miles, will go from FM 428 to the Grayson County line.
Construction began on the DNT Extension into Prosper and Celina in Feb. 2020 and opened to traffic in March.
I just wish it'd be extended to the southern OKC metro. I wouldn't mind driving a toll road to Dallas if that meant it was kept up, had 2-3 lanes each way, and didn't have a lane closure every 40-50 miles.
Quote from: MaxConcreteThe Dallas Morning News reported today that the NTTA is slated to approve the start of work in spring 2024 to extend the tollway main lanes 13.7 miles north of US 380.
Yep. It's 13.7 miles from the DNT interchange with US-380 up to CR-60/County Line Road. The ROW is already preserved, thanks to future frontage roads built much of the way.
Dallas Parkway continues as a single 2-lane "place holder" road going from the Collin/Grayson County Line 4.5 miles farther North up to an intersection with FM-121.
Quote from: Plutonic PandaI just wish it'd be extended to the southern OKC metro. I wouldn't mind driving a toll road to Dallas if that meant it was kept up, had 2-3 lanes each way, and didn't have a lane closure every 40-50 miles.
There won't be any such luck. The North end of the Grayson County Tollway is proposed to dovetail into US-75 on the North side of Denison.
A case certainly could be made for a second tollway (or freeway) to split off the DNT and go up to Whitesboro or Gainesville. But that would ultimately direct more traffic onto I-35. I wouldn't expect any new turnpike being built parallel to I-35 on up to OKC. It would just be better to widen I-35 to a minimum of 3x3 lanes between OKC and the Red River. That area around Thackerville should probably be widened to 4x4.
If current growth continues 3x3 won't even be enough. That entire stretch can packed now as it is. Currently it works as 2x2 but it won't for long.
Quote from: MaxConcrete on December 18, 2023, 01:34:46 PM
Quote
Tollway expansion north could start in the spring, pending NTTA vote
The 13.7 mile roadway will have six lanes, improving connectivity for a growing area of the state.
The Dallas North Tollway project to extend the road north from U.S. 380 to the Grayson County line might start in the spring, if the North Texas Tollway Authority gives a nod of approval during its Dec. 20 board meeting.
Michael Rey, media relations manager for NTTA, said if approved, work for the Phase 4 Corridor Project will begin in the spring of 2024.
According to records filed with the state, the NTTA funded roadway project is expected to cost $183 million.
Rey said the 13.7 miles of roadway will include construction of a six-lane urban tollway with three lanes in each direction.
Phase 4A, about 6 miles, will begin at U.S. 380 to Farm-to-Market 428; Phase 4B, about 7.7 miles, will go from FM 428 to the Grayson County line.
Construction began on the DNT Extension into Prosper and Celina in Feb. 2020 and opened to traffic in March.
To correct the DMN story, the most recent extension of the DNT main lanes was only an overpass at US 380 (which was badly needed) that finally connected Prosper directly to the main lanes. It's still double frontage roads from there north to FM 428 and then a single 2-way frontage road from 428 to the Grayson County line. From the county line north, TxDOT has opened FM Spur 121.
Right now there's not much of a need for Phase 4B as development hasn't gotten there yet. Might be a chicken-or-egg situation. Regardless, that is fixing to change big-time.
The DFW metro is still growing pretty rapidly. I still remember the 1990's when there was hardly anything at all in Frisco. That area is all covered up with development now. It's still amazing how highway planners were caught off guard with all the growth surrounding US-380 between Denton and McKinney. Upgrading US-380 into a freeway is going to cost the state a lot more money now for the new-ish properties they'll have to buy and remove.
It's a pretty lucky thing the NTTA started extending the Dallas Parkway frontage roads North of US-380 back in the late 2000's. There are new housing subdivisions to the left and right of the ROW up to Celina now. The green, open areas will continue filling in with new housing developments. I expect the growth to spread over to Pilot Point and the edge of Lake Ray Roberts. The highway planners to need to hurry up and get one or both frontage roads of the Colin County Outer Loop built through that area. It's only partially done right now.
I think the NTTA needs to get moving ASAP on Phases 4A and 4B of the DNT. Not only that, but when is the Grayson County Tollway going to start any construction? The entire toll road isn't just for serving local residents in the immediate areas it crosses. The completed project would carry a lot of longer distance traffic as well.
Hypothetically, if there was a real possibility for a western spur of the tollway, could that stretch be a continuation of the Dallas North Tollway while the other stretch towards US-75 would bear the name of Grayson County Tollway? Or would they have to name the western spur something else besides "Dallas North Tollway"?
Also, is NTTA building the Grayson County Tollway or some other toll authority?
Google Earth satellite imagery from July 2023 shows substantial development of new subdivisions even north of Celina, to the Grayson County line.
A future frontage road (Dallas Parkway) has been built as far north as Gunter in Grayson County.
(https://i.imgur.com/Zk19jEP.png)
Quote from: BJ59Also, is NTTA building the Grayson County Tollway or some other toll authority?
I think the Grayson County Regional Mobility Authority will be in charge of and collect revenue for the Grayson County Tollway. But I would imagine the tolls would be collected under either the TxTag or NTTA tag system.
A tollway spur off toward Gainesville would end up in Cooke County. Whitesboro is in Grayson County. IMHO, the US-82 corridor is going to have to be upgraded to Interstate standards between Gainesville and Sherman. That needs to happen in the not so distant future. It's going to be a somewhat similar situation to what has already been happening with US-380 between Denton and McKinney. A DNT tollway spur toward Gainesville could actually terminate at US-82. The segment of US-82 from Sherman to Whitesboro could be upgraded to Interstate standards without much trouble since nearly all the non-freeway portion is on a 300' wide ROW. Just West of Whitesboro the ROW width drops sharply to only 180' or even less.
Quote from: ChrisA future frontage road (Dallas Parkway) has been built as far north as Gunter in Grayson County.
That 2-lane Dallas Parkway road has (recently) been extended about 4.5 miles North of CR-60/County Line Road (where the DNT Phase 4B project would end). The future frontage road ends at FM-121. The Grayson County Tollway doesn't have any new roads farther North reserving future ROW. They've had a desired alignment charted out up to Denison for over a decade.
Anything future tollway-related in Grayson County has been handled by "pass through tolling," which evidently is a way to sneak in TxDOT and other funds to construct a toll road.
Grayson County in 2030 might be flush with tollway cash, but Grayson County in 2008 certainly was not.
Is the Grayson County group making any effort to sell bonds to get the basics of the future toll road started? At the very least they need to be laying down a 2-lane road to reserve the future toll road's ROW. And they should be building that 2-lane place-holder road from more than one direction. Working South to North from FM-121 in linear fashion ain't gonna cut it.
Some new commercial and residential construction is occurring in both the Sherman and Denison areas. That growth near the US-75 corridor could accelerate and cover up portions of the "preferred alternative" route of the Grayson County Tollway.
They need to decide on a location in Denison where the Grayson County Tollway will merge into US-75 and start building South/West from there before all the possible ROW routings get used up by new homes.
The extension was approved, as expected
News report (https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/dallas-north-tollway-extending-prosper-celina/287-b595c6c7-d1f5-4dcf-b83c-3d32163d7145?ref=exit-recirc)
Section 4a from U.S. 380 to FM Road 428 was approved to start construction in the spring. It appears that no start date has been decided for the 7.7-mile section 4b.
QuoteCOLLIN COUNTY, Texas — The North Texas Tollway Authority approved a six-mile extension to the Dallas North Tollway in Collin County on Wednesday.
The expansion includes six lanes -- three in either direction -- through Prosper and Celina.
The six-mile "Phase 4A" of construction is scheduled to begin in the spring, extending the highway from U.S. 380 to FM Road 428.
The future "Phase 4B" of the tollway, which will be 7.7 miles long, will extend from FM 428 to the Grayson County line.
It may not be necessary to build the main lanes of Phase 4B for a good while. I think a few things need to happen before it can be justified. First of all, both frontage roads for Phase 4B need to be fully completed to the intersection with CR-60/County Line Road. And then the Grayson County guys need to get a LOT more work done on the frontage roads for their future toll road. Dallas Parkway needs to at least have dual frontage roads reaching FM-121.
If the Grayson County Tollway's frontage roads were built up at least to US-82 that would provide a good enough connection to justify finishing out Phase 4B of the DNT. Having at least one or both of the frontage roads completed to US-75 in Denison would make a far better case for completing Phase 4B.
If the state was building the tollway they would probably just now be acquiring the ROW for the section between SH-121 and US-380 :D
Slightly off-topic, but let's hope then Grayson county also preserved some ROW for the upcoming Loop-9 as well as other possible east-west corridors between Loop-9 and US-82.
Grayson County won't be in the Loop 9 corridor. Farthest north it will go is between Anna and Melissa in Collin County. As for the future DNT extension, I'm sure they're working on it.
I don't see any evidence of ROW preservation for the Grayson County Tollway anywhere North of FM-121.
In Grayson County there is more future super-highway potential built into US-82 and TX-289. The Grayson County Tollway would be built on a new terrain alignment. That future alignment will likely be forced to adjust by new tracts of housing plopping down in the way. I could see the tollway having to overlap TX-289 for some distance.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 24, 2023, 02:52:14 PM
I don't see any evidence of ROW preservation for the Grayson County Tollway anywhere North of FM-121.
In Grayson County there is more future super-highway potential built into US-82 and TX-289. The Grayson County Tollway would be built on a new terrain alignment. That future alignment will likely be forced to adjust by new tracts of housing plopping down in the way. I could see the tollway having to overlap TX-289 for some distance.
I've posted it before, but there is a wide ROW preserved along a 4-mile stretch of TX 289 from just south of TX 56 in Southmayd up to US 82. My understanding is the Grayson County Tollway will eventually subsume this stretch, but the mapping that's out there is not definitive.
The proposed route maps I've seen of the Grayson County Tollway path do not overlap TX-289. The proposed route would intersection TX-289 just North of the North Texas Regional Airport and South of Pottsboro.