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EV pickup range while towing

Started by tradephoric, July 07, 2022, 03:10:45 PM

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tradephoric

A Youtuber tested how far he could drive a F-150 lightning from a full charge while towing a travel trailer.  He was unable to drive even 100 miles before running out of juice.  There is no services for over 100 miles on I-70 in Utah between Salina and Green River.  Are EV pickup owners who are towing a travel trailer destined to get stranded while driving that section of interstate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e55Vued028


ethanhopkin14

Quote from: tradephoric on July 07, 2022, 03:10:45 PM
A Youtuber tested how far he could drive a F-150 lightning from a full charge while towing a travel trailer.  He was unable to drive even 100 miles before running out of juice.  There is no services for over 100 miles on I-70 in Utah between Salina and Green River.  Are EV pickup owners who are towing a travel trailer destined to get stranded while driving that section of interstate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e55Vued028

This is one of my comments to electric cars as a whole.  I am not shooting them down or saying they are stupid, but I am saying they are not practical for my uses.  I drive distances that are sometimes multiple fill ups one way, and those are just jaunts, not my family road trips (so that's at about 350 miles between stops).  I don't have the time to stop at every charging station and sit for hours while the thing charges to then make it a little down the road to repeat the process.

Now this throws a new wrinkle in the mix.  towing on electric.  In areas that resources are limited.  Of course, those that do that on the regular probably wouldn't pick an electric truck as their power plant, but the stupidity of the human race never stops one-upping itself. 

formulanone

No current electric pickup owner is going to tow for any significant distances. They'll use it to go back and forth to their office complex, posing as a fake cowboy on their way back to their suburban tract. Or it will be guided by a shopaholic with with an inferiority complex but will leave it plugged in longer than necessary just to piss off other EV owners.

Check back in 10-20 years.

Max Rockatansky

And does this surprise anyone?  Basically the range of the motor/battery is rated at unladen curb weight.  The more weight you toss on via a trailer the less the range will be.  Even gasoline/diesel trucks have a massive economy drop the higher the weight of something being towed is.  Less than 100 miles certainly isn't practical for much beyond short in-town distances.


Bruce

The charging infrastructure network definitely needs work, especially on the non-Tesla side of things. Having to circle around to find working chargers on a few road trips with my friend in their EV is annoying and cumbersome when we we want to go somewhere more remote than the Interstates, so I can't imagine trying to rely on it for something more substantial.

Quote from: formulanone on July 07, 2022, 03:37:05 PM
No current electric pickup owner is going to tow for any significant distances. They'll use it to go back and forth to their office complex, posing as a fake cowboy on their way back to their suburban tract.

Plenty of diesel-guzzling pickups are treated just the same.  :bigass:

epzik8

From the land of red, white, yellow and black.
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Scott5114

Quote from: Andy RooneyMy grandfather told me when I was a small boy that if a product was any good, they shouldn't have to advertise it. I believed my grandfather at the time, but then years later my mother said that when she was a little girl he had told her that they'd never be able to build an automobile that would go up a hill. So I never knew whether to believe my grandfather or not.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Rothman

Quote from: Bruce on July 07, 2022, 04:44:02 PM
The charging infrastructure network definitely needs work, especially on the non-Tesla side of things. Having to circle around to find working chargers on a few road trips with my friend in their EV is annoying and cumbersome when we we want to go somewhere more remote than the Interstates, so I can't imagine trying to rely on it for something more substantial.

Quote from: formulanone on July 07, 2022, 03:37:05 PM
No current electric pickup owner is going to tow for any significant distances. They'll use it to go back and forth to their office complex, posing as a fake cowboy on their way back to their suburban tract.

Plenty of diesel-guzzling pickups are treated just the same.  :bigass:
Something tells me they won't put chargers where there aren't even gas stations.  One wonders where the power would come from on those desolate western stretches...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

FrCorySticha

#8
I saw comments on that video saying something like, "It's not like there won't be 220V charging stations at the campsite," made by commenters who think KOAs are roughing it. Within 90 miles of my house, I could easily find dozens of Forest Service primitive campsites that don't have any electrical services. That truck would do an amazing job getting to the campsite, and become a useless rock unless you brought a generator, solar panels, or other backup power to recharge while camping.

That's not counting the majority of Montana away from the Interstates that does not have any significant recharging infrastructure.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that most people I know in MT who have toy hauling campers like those in the video use it off road quite frequently for hunting and remote camping, usually with a side-by-side or dirt bikes in the back.

Scott5114

On the other hand, how many people tow trailers of any sort regularly enough that this matters at all? I don't even own any cars that can tow a trailer as it is. I've had the need to do it, maybe, a half-dozen times in my adult life. Any time I've needed to, I had a friend or family member do it for me and I threw them a twenty/took them out to eat/whatever for their time and gas.

Besides, if someone has enough money to own a travel trailer specifically, they probably have enough money to have both an electric vehicle for commuting and an ICE one for camping. These people are literally the least concern.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

FrCorySticha

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 07, 2022, 06:04:24 PM
On the other hand, how many people tow trailers of any sort regularly enough that this matters at all?

IMO, the importance of videos like this is to show that EV pickups are not quite ready to replace an ICE pickup for any serious labor. EVs have come a long way, but still have significant disadvantages over ICE that will cause problems if you rely on it for a job, use it outside of cities and suburbs, or need it for anything that might strain the battery capacity. If you do need to tow on a regular basis, cover long distances, go places without electricity, etc., then this video shows that an EV pickup is not right for you.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Rothman on July 07, 2022, 05:12:13 PM
Quote from: Bruce on July 07, 2022, 04:44:02 PM
The charging infrastructure network definitely needs work, especially on the non-Tesla side of things. Having to circle around to find working chargers on a few road trips with my friend in their EV is annoying and cumbersome when we we want to go somewhere more remote than the Interstates, so I can't imagine trying to rely on it for something more substantial.

Quote from: formulanone on July 07, 2022, 03:37:05 PM
No current electric pickup owner is going to tow for any significant distances. They'll use it to go back and forth to their office complex, posing as a fake cowboy on their way back to their suburban tract.

Plenty of diesel-guzzling pickups are treated just the same.  :bigass:
Something tells me they won't put chargers where there aren't even gas stations.  One wonders where the power would come from on those desolate western stretches...

That's the biggest issue I presently have making a jump to EV beyond commuter car.  It would be a huge problem trying to track down infrastructure in places like the Sierra Nevada Mountains or Great Basin Desert for a charge up due to unexpected short range.  Even when range on EVs is likely enhanced in the future getting charging stations to the remote corners of the America West will likely still be a major issue.

skluth

I think almost every gardener in So Cal drives a pickup towing a single-axle trailer filled with tools. (See picture for example) None are close to the size of that camping trailer. While the EV pickup may not be feasible yet for towing camping trailers, it should satisfy the needs of the gardeners of So Cal. It may be a while before any of them could afford one however.

Scott5114

Quote from: FrCorySticha on July 07, 2022, 07:27:31 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 07, 2022, 06:04:24 PM
On the other hand, how many people tow trailers of any sort regularly enough that this matters at all?

IMO, the importance of videos like this is to show that EV pickups are not quite ready to replace an ICE pickup for any serious labor. EVs have come a long way, but still have significant disadvantages over ICE that will cause problems if you rely on it for a job, use it outside of cities and suburbs, or need it for anything that might strain the battery capacity. If you do need to tow on a regular basis, cover long distances, go places without electricity, etc., then this video shows that an EV pickup is not right for you.

Well, yeah. But what I'm saying is, the vast majority of people rarely need to use a vehicle for serious labor and would do just fine in an EV.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 07, 2022, 08:06:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on July 07, 2022, 05:12:13 PM
Quote from: Bruce on July 07, 2022, 04:44:02 PM
The charging infrastructure network definitely needs work, especially on the non-Tesla side of things. Having to circle around to find working chargers on a few road trips with my friend in their EV is annoying and cumbersome when we we want to go somewhere more remote than the Interstates, so I can't imagine trying to rely on it for something more substantial.

Quote from: formulanone on July 07, 2022, 03:37:05 PM
No current electric pickup owner is going to tow for any significant distances. They'll use it to go back and forth to their office complex, posing as a fake cowboy on their way back to their suburban tract.

Plenty of diesel-guzzling pickups are treated just the same.  :bigass:
Something tells me they won't put chargers where there aren't even gas stations.  One wonders where the power would come from on those desolate western stretches...

That's the biggest issue I presently have making a jump to EV beyond commuter car.  It would be a huge problem trying to track down infrastructure in places like the Sierra Nevada Mountains or Great Basin Desert for a charge up due to unexpected short range.  Even when range on EVs is likely enhanced in the future getting charging stations to the remote corners of the America West will likely still be a major issue.

Yes, this is going to be a major problem for people that live in places like Nevada. However, I wonder if we might see more EV chargers in these areas than there are gas stations now once the tech matures. Most gas stations need to have someone on property supervising/operating a C-store any time they're open, and even if not, you periodically have to have someone go out there and refill the tanks.

With electric, you could have a layby with one or two fully-automated chargers pretty much anywhere you can run electricity, even if it's in the middle of nowhere. They could probably even automatically dispatch someone to come out and look at them if they have a technical problem.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

davewiecking

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 07, 2022, 08:42:05 PM
With electric, you could have a layby with one or two fully-automated chargers pretty much anywhere you can run electricity, even if it's in the middle of nowhere. They could probably even automatically dispatch someone to come out and look at them if they have a technical problem.
So the obvious question is: how big a solar array (with appropriate batteries) would be needed to support a charger out in the middle of nowhere?

Another item I've pondered before: AAA can come to the rescue of an out-of-fuel ICE vehicle with a few gallons of gas (which takes up less than a cubic foot of space and weighs maybe 20 lb). The equivalent would be such a vehicle able to partially charge an EV's battery. How much space/weight would that be?

ethanhopkin14

My biggest issue is still.. We just aren't near ready to make this a viable thing.  The technology and infrastructure just isn't there to make this a seamless transition.  Again, not slamming electric cars, but I don't think much thinking was involved when the craze hit.  It was "hey we got an electric car, hey California, pass a bill that will ban gasoline vehicle purchase in 2035!  We're done with this, move on to the new shiny thing!!"   

Again, they work fine in your city.  They work fine for your daily work commute.   There are a lot of people out there that use their car for only those purposes, but there are way more people out there that need their car to do their daily commute, commute from their to their second job, then to their kid's T-ball practice and then been the family road trip car.  Yes the technology is there for electric cars, but there is a difference between the technology being there and it being a direct replacement for something that already works pretty good as it is.  There are a lot of questions I have that not only aren't being answered, no one is even asking the questions.  All this isn't even throwing in the fact most people can't even afford these cars.

It fells like another classic, "It works for me on my 1 mile commute to work, so it will work for everybody in this country."

mgk920

I have mentioned this many times before in discussions of these types of vehicles and still have no reason to change my opinion on it.  "Range on a charge" and "turnaround time on refueling (recharging)" were two of the primary reasons why battery-electric technology failed in the open market in the earliest days of automobility (well over a century ago) and why it will ultimately fail again.  Battery-electric has its place (short range fleets, golf courses, warehouse lift trucks and the like), but is absolutely unsuitable for public general use.

Mike

Bruce

The average daily drive for most Americans is under 45 miles according to the NHTS, well within range of any EV. If home-work-work-shopping-sports-home is double that, then you have a lifestyle problem (or a sprawl addiction).

Even my fairly intensive delivery driving still slides under the 300-mile range advertised for higher-end EVs, and in a decade's time that range should be attainable for most EVs.

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: Bruce on July 08, 2022, 02:50:34 PM
The average daily drive for most Americans is under 45 miles according to the NHTS, well within range of any EV. If home-work-work-shopping-sports-home is double that, then you have a lifestyle problem.

My daily commute to work is longer than that alone, so when I add something else to do before I go home, that adds up, and it's not lifestyle problem....it's a way of life!

Seriously though, I also am afraid living in a hot state, because batteries don't last as long when hot constantly. 

Rothman



Quote from: Bruce on July 08, 2022, 02:50:34 PM
The average daily drive for most Americans is under 45 miles according to the NHTS, well within range of any EV. If home-work-work-shopping-sports-home is double that, then you have a lifestyle problem (or a sprawl addiction).

And this kind of condescension is why people can't stand New Urbanists or other fanatical planners obsessed with stacking people on top of each other and putting everyone on public transit.

And I say that as someone who doesn't have a daily drive at all (I walk to work) and as someone who currently lives in an apartment.

Fact of the matter is I still love the convenience of driving 300+ miles, filling up in a couple of minutes and away I go again.

And there's more to life than commuting, shopping and taking kids to extracurriculars.  Walking around a city grid can be tiresome due to the traffic lights, so we head out of town to walk around the nearby lakes and the like.

The planner planning around "home-work-shopping-sports-home" routine is actually enforcing the system that exploits labor, if you think about it.

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

hotdogPi

An electric vehicle would work very well for me where I live. I still live with my mother. Very few trips are over 20 miles (15 to her work, 15 to Lahey Hospital in Burlington, 20 to theatre when I did it, 20 to the second-closest Apple Store when the closest was booked), and even the trips to Boston are about 30 miles. Getting prescriptions and groceries are under 3 miles away.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

JayhawkCO

Not I, alas. I like to go to the most remote places I can find in this state. I don't have a commute at all for work, and if I could afford to move to the mountains, I would. Instead, I have to drive there.

ethanhopkin14

#22
Quote from: 1 on July 08, 2022, 03:11:35 PM
An electric vehicle would work very well for me where I live. I still live with my mother. Very few trips are over 20 miles (15 to her work, 15 to Lahey Hospital in Burlington, 20 to theatre when I did it, 20 to the second-closest Apple Store when the closest was booked), and even the trips to Boston are about 30 miles. Getting prescriptions and groceries are under 3 miles away.

Again, there is nothing wrong with that.  That works for you.

On the other hand, if my wife and I want to go to Walmart or another department store, its a 46 mile round trip on a day that's not a work day.  We don't just stop at that so we usually put 75-100 miles on our car just running errands on a weekend.  That's all the necessity part.

I am not throwing in the part where we are tired of being at home every day so we just take off, or we have to visit the grandkids 4 hours away, or my in-laws 5 hours away.  Even a "short" weekend drive to San Antonio for the day is a 200 mile round trip.  It's just not practical for my life.  I know we can probably do all that in an electric car, but it's not exactly switching from one car to the next.  Every aspect of our lives will change.  What if I pull a bonehead like so many of us do when I get home from work and forget to plug the car in like I sometimes forget to plug the phone in?  What happens when I run out of power on the highway/  Do they have electric cans I can carry some electricity in and fill-er up?  What happens when I am low on "fuel" and I fill up?  No big deal right, just plug in...except I don't want to kill 4 hours charging up my car.  Some people boast that they have these "rapid chargers" that can do it in about 1.5 to 2 hours now.  Sorry, but for my schedule and life, that doesn't help.  I am pissed if it takes me more than 10 minutes to fill up my car, not because I am impatient, but because I don't like to hang out at a gas station for any longer than I have to.  One blew up when I was a kid and I still think about it and there are so many that feel like I am either going to get stabbed or somehow get involved in a drug deal, but the Urbanist want me to hang out at these places for 2 to 4 hours?  See the city they said!  Or just the gas station/charging station. 

Oh yeah, I am the type of guy that loves to keep a car until it falls apart.  What will happen in 5 years when the battery doesn't hold the charge like it used to.  Get a new battery they say...they also say, it will be so costly you have to drop another $80 grand on a new one...still, I am not seeing the good deal I am getting here. 

Again, none of the points I am talking about are new, but I really feel like the powers that be that are pushing the electric car wagon either didn't think about all these things, or simply just don't give a crap about my life or others like me. 

JayhawkCO

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 08, 2022, 03:36:32 PM
Again, none of the points I am talking about are new, but I really feel like the powers that be that are pushing the electric car wagon either didn't think about all these things, or simply just don't give a crap about my life or others like me.

I think they've thought about these things and your demographic as well, but simply put, the technology isn't there yet. It's getting there for sure, but as of now, it's not in a place where it can completely replace combustion engines. It will get there at some point, and honestly probably not too far away in the future. I recently bought a 2019 Jeep thinking that it would probably be the last gas driven car I purchase, and hopefully so, but obviously there are still steps to take before EVs become ubiquitous.

jeffandnicole

I like using a sample of 1 to hint at everyone's experience for the rest of eternity.



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