1963 photo taken at the East LA interchange

agentsteel53 · June 04, 2010, 03:14:03 PM

one thing I've noticed I have a gap in my knowledge about is: what did the shields look like on side-of-the-road signs on porcelain green signs? (1959 to 1963.) I don't remember if the sign manuals I have specify the exact same layout as the 1958 style with mixed case, as seen here:

the sign on the left is a 1955 style, with spelled-out as opposed to a shield. the one on the right is an early '58 - the '56 style would've had a logo, and mixed case but with Series D capitals, and a late '58 would have had "junction" in all caps.

I just have not seen any examples from 1959-1963, or maybe I have, and figured that they were black signs given that the photos were b/w. I've seen the aluminum-sandwich signs with shields and they are like the 10/70 junction sign in the foreground of the East LA Interchange I-5 southbound photo.

my guess is that they looked much the same, except green. In mid-1958, the overhead signs went a drastic transformation in style, and that style was kept through the color change in 1959. The only transformation the side-of-the-road signs underwent in mid-1958 was to change the banners back to all-caps; the shields were kept the same.

TheStranger · June 04, 2010, 06:07:16 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2010, 03:05:19 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on June 04, 2010, 02:59:04 PM

How long were the half-sized signs made in the green-background era? I don't think there are any black-background examples remaining...

the yellow-background END FREEWAY half-size dates to the black sign era, but indeed there are no genuine black freeway signs left, half-size or otherwise.

I do not know how long they were made in the half-size. I don't recall any that aren't porcelain; and offhand the latest I can remember is the 1962 signs that survive on the Arroyo Seco - in older overlit brackets, no less! But I haven't paid too much attention to half vs. full-size signs so my answer is not particularly authoritative.

I wonder how old the examples on the Santa Ana Freeway are, like this...

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.8712,107.138672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.053208,-118.229968&spn=0.001473,0.00327&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=34.053237,-118.230159&panoid=Di__rF73UMqX1i_Ir5UpLA&cbp=12,110.36,,0,6.03

Interestingly, the 2008-era signage added about a quarter mile behind that...uses EXTERNAL tabs!
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.8712,107.138672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.053544,-118.231323&spn=0.002947,0.006539&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.053584,-118.231626&panoid=iU0rEZYiWjgZAyKuZziiag&cbp=12,133.02,,0,1.83

agentsteel53 · June 04, 2010, 06:44:57 PM

I misremembered the ones on the Arroyo Seco - they say "CA-6X" so they're 1964 at the earliest. I cannot make out the date stamp on the street view, unfortunately.

Quote from: TheStranger on June 04, 2010, 06:07:16 PMI wonder how old the examples on the Santa Ana Freeway are, like this...

I have no idea - on this one, I cannot spot the datestamp at all. Usually one can tell the difference between the long stamp "59-7Sxxxx" for 1959-1961, then simply "C-62" for 1962-63, then "CA-64" for 1964 and later, which is helpful even if it doesn't give an exact year. Note some 1961s say, simply "61".

QuoteInterestingly, the 2008-era signage added about a quarter mile behind that...uses EXTERNAL tabs!

Were they replacements of signs with 1971 external tabs? If so, I wouldn't be surprised if they carbon-copied.

TheStranger · June 04, 2010, 08:48:50 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2010, 06:44:57 PM
QuoteInterestingly, the 2008-era signage added about a quarter mile behind that...uses EXTERNAL tabs!

Were they replacements of signs with 1971 external tabs? If so, I wouldn't be surprised if they carbon-copied.

The original sign actually did NOT have tabs at all!
https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001e_02.jpg

agentsteel53 · June 04, 2010, 09:36:30 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 04, 2010, 08:48:50 PM

The original sign actually did NOT have tabs at all!
https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001e_02.jpg

that looks to be a very old sign - not significantly newer than the 1973 switch from porcelain to button copy.

maybe the tabs were added because some other sign in the same replacement contract had external tabs? or just California plucking an idea out of thin air as they sometimes do. For example, I've seen 1980s green signs with 2/3 lowercase letter height ratio, as if it were 1950 again.

TheStranger · June 05, 2010, 04:42:50 AM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2010, 09:36:30 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on June 04, 2010, 08:48:50 PM

The original sign actually did NOT have tabs at all!
https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001e_02.jpg

that looks to be a very old sign - not significantly newer than the 1973 switch from porcelain to button copy.

maybe the tabs were added because some other sign in the same replacement contract had external tabs? or just California plucking an idea out of thin air as they sometimes do. For example, I've seen 1980s green signs with 2/3 lowercase letter height ratio, as if it were 1950 again.

agentsteel53 · June 05, 2010, 05:28:55 AM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 04:42:50 AM
- southbound Santa Ana Freeway at First Street, what appears to be 1970s-era signage with no exit tabs:

indeed, this is 70s or 80s.

Quote- northbound Santa Ana Freeway at the East Los Angeles Interchange, where I-5 splits off to the Golden State...the non-greenout "Sacramento" appelation makes me think this dates to the 80s.

sounds about right. looking at the back of the signs on street view reveals that they are indeed not porcelain.

Quote- Interstate 5 (Golden State Freeway) northbound, advance signage from the 1970s for 7th Street (with center-tabbed exit number)

I believe this sign is a '71, implying it was installed with the tab in place.

Quote- Seventh Street exit off of I-5, with greenout "Sacramento" for I-5 sign (which probably originally carried "Bakersfield")

this one is super old. It looks to me to be a 1958 spec, as opposed to '61 spec, interstate shield, though I have trouble telling them apart for the one-digit numbers. In any case, the freeway name is very old. Do you know when they stopped signing those? I know the 605 was the first freeway without a name - 1966 or so?

Quote- Destination distance sign for US 101 north along the Santa Ana Freeway (with Whittier Boulevard/historic US 101 crossing overhead) - note the "Fwy I-10 East" greenout; could this have said "San Bernardino Fwy"? Sign looks too new to have been "US 60/70/99".

your guess is as good as mine. The sign might very well be old; for some reason those '59s and '60s really tend to hold up well. The one for Main Street (I-5 southbound) looks much newer than what it is: 1959.

Quote- What appears to be 1960s signage (note the grimy button copy for the "Hollywood" control city - the first time the Santa Ana Freeway does not have Los Angeles as its northbound control city!) for US 101 north at Vignes Street, with the center-tab exit signage:

CA-XX datestamps imply '64 or later.

Quote- One of the few "Second Right" signs left, this one for Grand Avenue:

no idea on this one - its mounting, and the presence of the collar, have prevented me from really ever taking a good look at that one.

TheStranger · June 05, 2010, 05:38:10 AM

Quote from: agentsteel53
Quote- Seventh Street exit off of I-5, with greenout "Sacramento" for I-5 sign (which probably originally carried "Bakersfield")

this one is super old. It looks to me to be a 1958 spec, as opposed to '61 spec, interstate shield, though I have trouble telling them apart for the one-digit numbers. In any case, the freeway name is very old. Do you know when they stopped signing those? I know the 605 was the first freeway without a name - 1966 or so?

My guess is that the 1970s was the last time CalTrans heavily mentioned freeway names - judging from some of the Orange County 405 "San Diego Freeway" signs that are photographed on Mark Furqueron's site.

That's not to say it's not done at all, as more recent "Bayshore Fwy" and "MacArthur Fwy" examples in the Bay Area do show it in use once in a while - but rarely.

Another freeway that I think barely gets its name mentioned in signage in that area (along with 605) would be 210 (Foothill Fwy). 105 does not have name signage anywhere IIRC, and 118's is all on roadside wooden-pole structures if I'm not mistaken, which was definitely the case in the Simi Valley-San Fernando Valley Freeway era.

Quote from: agentsteel53

Quote- Destination distance sign for US 101 north along the Santa Ana Freeway (with Whittier Boulevard/historic US 101 crossing overhead) - note the "Fwy I-10 East" greenout; could this have said "San Bernardino Fwy"? Sign looks too new to have been "US 60/70/99".

your guess is as good as mine. The sign might very well be old; for some reason those '59s and '60s really tend to hold up well. The one for Main Street (I-5 southbound) looks much newer than what it is: 1959.

Looking at street view, on southbound US 101 at Alameda Street (near our retroreflective modern center-tab sign!), there's still the "San Bernardino Fwy" moniker up on the distance sign. So not sure why one gets greened out, and the other doesn't.

Speaking of Alameda Street, here's THE modern retroreflective center-tabbed sign, at the ramps!!! My guess is that this is a direct replacement of a similar setup from the 1971 project.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.054375,-118.238366&spn=0.002773,0.006539&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.054311,-118.238256&panoid=QpDyn4d6o9Jf-A1MYhB-aQ&cbp=12,131.36,,0,1.63

agentsteel53 · June 05, 2010, 05:48:18 AM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 05:38:10 AM
Another freeway that I think barely gets its name mentioned in signage in that area (along with 605) would be 210 (Foothill Fwy).

there was a greenout failure on I-5 at 210 about a year ago, and the freeway name was revealed! I'll have to dig up the photo, but it was one of these signs. I believe the right one.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=sylmar,+ca&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.8712,68.378906&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Sylmar&ll=34.321039,-118.496604&spn=0.005875,0.008347&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=34.320976,-118.496465&panoid=RuIHQpfj01Py-AYAlyGjHg&cbp=12,131.77,,0,5

QuoteSpeaking of Alameda Street, here's THE modern retroreflective center-tabbed sign, at the ramps!!! My guess is that this is a direct replacement of a similar setup from the 1971 project.

correct, except the tab was centered better in '71!

TheStranger · June 05, 2010, 06:14:07 AM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 05:48:18 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 05:38:10 AM
Another freeway that I think barely gets its name mentioned in signage in that area (along with 605) would be 210 (Foothill Fwy).

there was a greenout failure on I-5 at 210 about a year ago, and the freeway name was revealed! I'll have to dig up the photo, but it was one of these signs. I believe the right one.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=sylmar,+ca&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.8712,68.378906&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Sylmar&ll=34.321039,-118.496604&spn=0.005875,0.008347&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=34.320976,-118.496465&panoid=RuIHQpfj01Py-AYAlyGjHg&cbp=12,131.77,,0,5

Honestly, greening out "Foothill Fwy" with "Freeway" has to rank as one of the most pointless things I have ever seen, if for no other reason than...couldn't CalTrans have saved money by simply greening out "Foothill," or better yet, not doing anything here at all?

I can understand removing the freeway name from junctions (though I am no fan of that practice), but...here, I can't see the purpose of it.

Quote

correct, except the tab was centered better in '71!

And the 1971 tab was twice as big and more readable, too!

I assume directional tabs were an innovation of the later-70s (after California had abandoned its exit numbering experiment).

agentsteel53 · June 05, 2010, 03:26:13 PM

we have an explanation for the 1963 photo, courtesy of Mike Ballard.

first, the distant sign has "Santa Ana Fwy" as the bottom line. It is, indeed, not the sign that is visible today, but the sign visible today is a '63 or '64 that is nearly identical, except to squeeze in the 10 shield, and possibly a 5 shield for Santa Ana Fwy.

the last line got covered up in '65, when the ramps to the Pomona Fwy opened.

US-60 was never signed on the Pomona Fwy.

Reason being, the last routing of US-60 was from the end of the Moreno Valley Fwy, up surface streets to the San Bernardino Fwy, where it terminated. US-70 was the continuing route, along with I-10. This termination took place very early ('60 or '61), likely before the foreground sign was erected, so that never had a US-60 shield.

the Pomona Fwy was anticipated to be signed as state route 60 when it opened, from its conception. The truncation of the US routes not a sudden idea in 1963; it had been anticipated by the 1950s. Overhead guide signs, until 1955, simply didn't have shields on them just to try to avoid confusion, between the divergence of the named and numbered freeway set, and then the sheer quantity of route numbers. Then, when shields were added, only select numbers were ever displayed. For example, the Harbor Fwy was preferentially signed CA-11, with US-6 only rarely making an appearance.

60 was planned to be a state route by the time the Pomona Fwy was being built, and therefore it was never signed as US-60.

TheStranger · June 05, 2010, 03:48:38 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 03:26:13 PM
we have an explanation for the 1963 photo, courtesy of Mike Ballard.

first, the distant sign has "Santa Ana Fwy" as the bottom line. It is, indeed, not the sign that is visible today, but the sign visible today is a '63 or '64 that is nearly identical, except to squeeze in the 10 shield, and possibly a 5 shield for Santa Ana Fwy.

That does actually make sense - at the time, the whole Santa Ana Fwy represented at least one completely different route (as I-5 was co-signed with US 101 for about 9-10 years) and not simply just a continuation of I-5 only, as is the case today.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 03:26:13 PM

Reason being, the last routing of US-60 was from the end of the Moreno Valley Fwy, up surface streets to the San Bernardino Fwy, where it terminated. US-70 was the continuing route, along with I-10. This termination took place very early ('60 or '61), likely before the foreground sign was erected, so that never had a US-60 shield.

So US 60's pre-1964 western terminus was NOT Los Angeles, but where that I-10/Holt Avenue split in Pomona (posted earlier in the thread), where I-10 now junctions with Route 71, is located?

(That'd probably be a good update for Wikipedia, Cahighways, etc. as most sources simply have mentioned the route being cut back to Quartzite or east of Beaumont, and not at Pomona.)

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 03:26:13 PM

the Pomona Fwy was anticipated to be signed as state route 60 when it opened, from its conception. The truncation of the US routes not a sudden idea in 1963; it had been anticipated by the 1950s. Overhead guide signs, until 1955, simply didn't have shields on them just to try to avoid confusion, between the divergence of the named and numbered freeway set, and then the sheer quantity of route numbers. Then, when shields were added, only select numbers were ever displayed. For example, the Harbor Fwy was preferentially signed CA-11, with US-6 only rarely making an appearance.

60 was planned to be a state route by the time the Pomona Fwy was being built, and therefore it was never signed as US-60.

I wonder what's out there as far as documentation for numbering proposals/restructuring. Although the Interstates had been proposed in some form since the 1940s, the final numbering plan didn't get concocted until 1957-1958 (as CalTrans originally suggested several different numbers to avoid the 40/80 duplication, and didn't originally use 3dis for the longer regional routes), so the US routes were the primary major designations entering the mid-1950s.

The Pomona Freeway as LRN 172 had existed as a corridor as far back as 1933, and US 60 was on Valley Boulevard for at least a year, which makes me think that pre-construction, that was still expected to be US 60, and that the Interstates' arrival was what spurred the truncation. (I do find it intriguing that 70 and 99 were not originally truncated though, and were signed in the East Los Angeles area when the Interstates were being first trailblazered.)

As for the Harbor Freeway/today's I-110...from all the vintage photos I've seen of it, it was signed as US 6 primarily south of the Four-Level. (I do recall Route 11 being noted on maps at times as almost a "Business route" of 6/66, along Figueroa Street - in fact, if I'm not mistaken, 11 did not run on the Pasadena Freeway until 1964, but along its original route up Figueroa north of the tunnels with US 66A, the segment that would later become unsigned Route 159.) Some examples from the AARoads shield gallery:

www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19550062 - downtown LA, US 6 and Route 11 on the gantry
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19510061 - trailblazer assembly near today's Golden State Freeway/Pasadena Freeway junction, where 66 and 99 turned south on the Pasadena with south 11 and west 66
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19550662 - early-1950s signage at the Four-Level, at the transition from the Hollywood to Santa Ana freeways - US 66 is only shield on the gantry, and no mention of Route 11
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19550111 - Harbor Freeway about a mile south of I-10, I can't tell if this is the northbound or southbound ramps. Signed as both US 6 and Route 11.
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19580061 - Early 1960s signage for the Harbor and Pasadena Freeways off of US 101 - the sign is still in use, but with Route 110 shields covering up the US shields in greenout. No mention of Route 11.
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19610061 - "US 6 West" San Pedro signage (interesting how CalTrans NOW signs US 6 mostly as north-south, but when the north-south segment of US 6 was longer, well...) from the early 1960s. Not sure if this is off of US 101, I-10 (probably not I-10), Route 91, or I-405, the four freeways that crossed the Harbor Freeway at the time. (I-105 was added much later to the mix, and Route 90 was never completed between Yorba Linda and Marina Del Rey.
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19400063 - 1940s surface street photo, 6 and 11 co-signed along Figueroa Street near downtown.
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19340061 - 1940s surface street photo, Figueroa at Manchester Avenue (the future Route 42 at that point).

agentsteel53 · June 05, 2010, 03:54:30 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 03:48:38 PM
So US 60's pre-1964 western terminus was NOT Los Angeles, but where that I-10/Holt Avenue split in Pomona (posted earlier in the thread), where I-10 now junctions with Route 71, is located?

I do not know how official the terminus was, but the 60 shield was eliminated from signs going forward.

QuoteAs for the Harbor Freeway/today's I-110...from all the vintage photos I've seen of it, it was signed as US 6 primarily south of the Four-Level. (I do recall Route 11 being noted on maps as almost a "Business route" of 6/66, along Figueroa Street - in fact, if I'm not mistaken, 11 did not run on the Pasadena Freeway until 1964, but along its original route up Figueroa north of the tunnels with US 66A, the segment that would later become unsigned Route 159.)

maybe I am thinking of the Pasadena Fwy, then, because I have a few photos floating around that are just 11 (as opposed to 66, in that case). I'll have to dig them up.

TheStranger · June 05, 2010, 04:09:23 PM

Looking through the gallery to see the US 66 signage in the LA area, here's one from the Four-Level with a very fascinating US 101 shield:
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19550661

The examples of the Pasadena Freeway tangentially linked to in my previous post DO note 66 only for the freeway north of 101. My assumption is that 11 exited off before the tunnels to follow US 66A...

agentsteel53 · June 05, 2010, 04:17:20 PM

that is a very interesting picture. For a while I had thought the sign was green, totally screwing up my chronology, but it is just the way the film capture worked out. I need to color-correct it sometime. Note the logo on the sign; it is a 1955-57.

it is the only time I've seen the cardinal direction like that. Must have been a space saver so that the sign didn't have to go to full height.

I'm afraid I didn't take any photos of the just-11 pictures I saw at the Caltrans library. I had very limited time, and was focusing more on unique shield styles, than freeway routings. So I was satisfied with a single 6/11 photo from the Harbor Freeway that was of nice high quality and illustrated the US and spade shield straight-on.

this is a 1956 photo. now that I look carefully, the signs have no white border at all! The 60 on-ramp sign has the logo and the border, so that must be the later style. Great, just one more variant for me to track down the history of. This is complicated!

alternately, I might be just totally misremembering, and it was 66 that was signed on the Pasadena Fwy - the general idea, though, still stands, that certain routes were deprecated even if they were formally extant, just to minimize the confusion.

TheStranger · June 05, 2010, 04:26:22 PM

Yeah, the white border was introduced in 1958, correct?

Quote from: agentsteel53the general idea, though, still stands, that certain routes were deprecated even if they were formally extant, just to minimize the confusion.

Since routes were internally referred to by LRN, I've always thought that any route designations statewide were concocted not on the DOT level (at the time), but in this pre-1964 era, by the auto clubs (who probably applied to AASHO for the US routes). Thus, the auto clubs encouraged more routes coming in (i.e. the 70 extension that duplicated 60 and 99, the 6 extension that involved the long concurrency with 395) and the Division of Highways had to keep up with it.

It's no surprise that CalTrans in the post-1964 period has tended away from signed concurrencies, though IMO way too much so - in the time period between 1958 and 1964, mentioning as many routes as possible appears to have been the norm on freeway guide signage (i.e. US 91/US 395/Route 18 and I-15 in San Bernardino) almost to prove the point to the legislature that the existing system was not working.

agentsteel53 · June 05, 2010, 04:30:05 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 04:26:22 PM
Yeah, the white border was introduced in 1958, correct?

before April 1957* when the logo was dropped. The Holt Ave/Pomona sign with 60 shield has both logo and white border.

*the logo was dropped before April '57**, but during that year. The first aluminum US shields are an April '57 spec sheet, and there are porcelain shields with '57 date stamp, both with and without logo.

** I think I said August '57 earlier in this thread. I had misremembered the date on the spec sheet.

the white border was introduced sometime between 1955 and 1957.

TheStranger · June 05, 2010, 04:37:25 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 04:30:05 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 04:26:22 PM
Yeah, the white border was introduced in 1958, correct?

before April 1957* when the logo was dropped. The Holt Ave/Pomona sign with 60 shield has both logo and white border.

*the logo was dropped before April '57**, but during that year. The first aluminum US shields are an April '57 spec sheet, and there are porcelain shields with '57 date stamp, both with and without logo.

** I think I said August '57 earlier in this thread. I had misremembered the date on the spec sheet.

the white border was introduced sometime between 1955 and 1957.

The rounded corners on the white border were around when the Interstates came in, that's from 58 or 59?

The Holt Avenue sign also sports the pre-1958 tendency to add a period after street name abbreviations - which has been deprecated in most modern signage.

agentsteel53 · June 05, 2010, 04:55:31 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 04:37:25 PM
The rounded corners on the white border were around when the Interstates came in, that's from 58 or 59?

'58 is the earliest I've seen.

agentsteel53 · June 06, 2010, 01:02:17 AM

just was looking at that '57 spec for aluminum shields. It says 5/28/57, which is clearly not April.

I must've taken an extra dose of dumbass pills this morning!

so, the logo was dropped sometime between January and May of '57.

TheStranger · June 07, 2010, 12:53:01 PM

Looking again at the Mission Road interchange with the Santa Ana Freeway...we've got the same external tabs as that at Alameda Street, except...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/john-e/4491171528/

The left exit for I-10 (San Bernardino Split) correctly has a left-aligned tab, while Mission road has an odd semi-center aligned tab!

Another notable sign from the 2008-era contract is this, at the north terminus of the Santa Ana Freeway -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mike_s_etc/3872045157/

In addition to I-110 being signed this far north (which is correct as far as reflecting the southbound signage of the Harbor Freeway in its entirety), this new reflective pull-through uses the freeway name going forward (Hollywood Fwy)! I presume this isn't so much an intentional design choice as much as it is another example of "replacing previously-existing button copy sign with reflective sign, with no redaction of text."

The southbound pullthrough at the Four-Level does represent another CalTrans anomaly, in that instead of the previously used (and still extant - to nobody's credit - in the recent Business 80/US 50 resigning project in Sacramento) practice of "signing for the next route after terminus" - as seen to some extent here https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_003b_02a.jpg - the FHWA-approved practice of "US 101 TO I-10/I-5/Route 60" is now in place in the vicinity - https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_003b_06.jpg

Seems like the East Los Angeles Interchange/San Bernardino Split area continues to be a testing ground for sign formatting, like it was in 1971...

TheStranger · July 15, 2010, 05:17:09 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 03:26:13 PM

60 was planned to be a state route by the time the Pomona Fwy was being built, and therefore it was never signed as US-60.

Actually...

There is at least one planning map (1958-era) which shows US 60 as the designation for the Pomona Freeway, from a recent upload by Eric Fischer:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4778411204/in/photostream/

The map itself also contains some planning oddities I haven't seen elsewhere: a Route 247 freeway (Route C), taking a different route from Apple Valley northwest...a combination of the unbuilt Route 122 and 249 corridors...a connector between Route 90 in Yorba Linda and unbuilt Route 81 west of Riverside...a Route 39 extension north of Route 2 all the way to unbuilt Route 48!

There's even a north-south freeway from today's I-15 at the state line south through Amboy at then-US 66 all the way to I-10 west of Chiraco Summit - I don't think this was ever proposed by the state.

agentsteel53 · July 15, 2010, 06:09:12 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on July 15, 2010, 05:17:09 PM
There is at least one planning map (1958-era) which shows US 60 as the designation for the Pomona Freeway, from a recent upload by Eric Fischer:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4778411204/in/photostream/

so even that long ago they were planning on moving the designation. Good to know! Given that the freeway opened in 1965, I think Mike's observation that it was "planned to be state 60" was correct, because by 1962 or so I am quite sure they knew they were going to eliminate a bunch of routes.

QuoteThere's even a north-south freeway from today's I-15 at the state line south through Amboy at then-US 66 all the way to I-10 west of Chiraco Summit - I don't think this was ever proposed by the state.

if that freeway existed, I wouldn't have a fast route back from the desert. All the Vegas traffic would take that freeway and I-10 to San Diego and LA, and both that and 15 would be hosed... this way, with the Amboy Road being an obscurity, I get to do 100mph on it while traffic crawls on I-15.

TheStranger · July 15, 2010, 06:18:38 PM

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 15, 2010, 06:09:12 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on July 15, 2010, 05:17:09 PM
There is at least one planning map (1958-era) which shows US 60 as the designation for the Pomona Freeway, from a recent upload by Eric Fischer:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4778411204/in/photostream/

so even that long ago they were planning on moving the designation. Good to know! Given that the freeway opened in 1965, I think Mike's observation that it was "planned to be state 60" was correct, because by 1962 or so I am quite sure they knew they were going to eliminate a bunch of routes.

Based on 1963 signing (where 70/10 remained concurrent on the San Bernardino Freeway with 99, while 60 was cut back to Pomona at Holt Avenue at the time), my guess - hard to verify without more documentation - is that in 1958, the Pomona Freeway (following much of the 1933 US 60 corridor) would be US 60, but by 1963 it was going to be a state route with US 60 being cut back. (Which then doesn't quite explain why 70 and 99 were getting equal billing that late before the renumbering.)

News:

1963 photo taken at the East LA interchange