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I-980 Oakland CA Signage

Started by subzeroepsilon, October 15, 2010, 05:35:59 PM

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subzeroepsilon

In the last two months since I have had to drive from Oakland to Concord for work regularly I have noticed that CalTrans has erected I-980 trailblazers on the mainline of I-980/CA-24 over the Downtown Oakland section between the Nimitz and MacArthur freeways in both directions. Most of the westbound signs have green directionals but have the first letter W in "West" as a larger font than the "EST", and no mention of CA-24 is made in this section whereas the eastbound directionals are the correct blue color.

I seem to think this coincides with some of the construction going on with the fourth Caldecott bore. Somehow this leads me to believe that, once the Caldecott is expanded to two bores each direction, CalTrans will be asking to replace CA-24 with I-980 over the whole freeway from I-880 to I-680. Does anyone know if this indeed is the ultimate plan or is my mind just dreaming?


Quillz

It would make sense. CA-24 extends northeast to I-680 and is a freeway for its entire length and thus would seem to make perfect sense to replace it with I-980.

However, 3di with an odd leading digit are intended to be spurs that only meet an Interstate on one end. Extended I-980 northeast to I-680 would continue to violate this principal, which I understand really isn't followed all that much throughout the country. It's completely out of the way, but I always felt there should be another Bay crossing that linked I-980 to I-380 and then cancel one of the numbers so you have just one long route with an odd leading digit that ends how it's supposed to.

subzeroepsilon

I had considered this idea as well: Extend 980 north along 680 for approx 4 miles and over the existing CA-242 and CA-4 freeways east over Willow Pass into Pittsburg/Antioch/Brentwood and end at the end of the planned freeway bypass at the Vasco Road/Marsh Creek Road intersection in Brentwood, thus giving the communities of East Contra Costa County access to the Interstate system. And you solve the Interstate-at-both-ends problem.

There already exists precedent for this type of maneuver in the Bay Area: look at the section of 580 that co-routes with 80 between Albany and the Maze. CA-4 could be re-routed back onto its old surface roads or multiplexed, either works fine.

national highway 1

If Caltrans wants to sign 24 as an interstate, until the fourth bore is completed, why not sign it as CA 980? (similar thing with CA 905 in San Diego; it used to be CA 117)
"Set up road signs; put up guideposts. Take note of the highway, the road that you take." Jeremiah 31:21

flowmotion

I think you guys have fabricated this "interstate at one end" rule. Bay Area geography is weird, and therefore so are some of the I numbers, but this is clearly a spur route.

In regards to the OP, I'm not sure what has changed. IIRC I-980 has always suddenly disappeared just east of I-580.

I am guessing they will be very slow to sign 24 as 980, mostly because Caltrans is lazy, but also because the sedate upper-class towns on the route will oppose additional truck traffic.

myosh_tino

Quote from: flowmotion on October 16, 2010, 12:44:38 AM
In regards to the OP, I'm not sure what has changed. IIRC I-980 has always suddenly disappeared just east of I-580.

I am guessing they will be very slow to sign 24 as 980, mostly because Caltrans is lazy, but also because the sedate upper-class towns on the route will oppose additional truck traffic.
That's because I-980 does end at I-580.  The freeway east of I-580 has always been CA-24.

IMO, signing CA-24 as I-980 is not going to result in a significant increase in truck traffic.  To get to Sacramento and points north and east, they'll use I-80.  To get to points south and east they'll use the I-238/I-580 corridor as that is the quickest way to I-5.  CA-24 is more of a commuter route than a major trucking corridor.

I would think that if CA-24 were to be renumbered as I-980, that change would be pretty quick once the state legislature gives its approval.
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TheStranger

#6
Quote from: Quillz on October 15, 2010, 05:53:44 PM
However, 3di with an odd leading digit are intended to be spurs that only meet an Interstate on one end.

The rule interpretation that Illinois has pioneered (that it only spurs off of its parent, not necessarily off of the Interstate system entirely) has become standard for most uses of the odd first digit, with the major exception of the I-376 extension near Pittsburgh - the only time an odd 3di intersects its parent twice!

In any case, the reason the section of what was proposed originally as Route 24 west of I-580 became I-980 is twofold:

1. Late-1970s interstate funding was applied to complete that section of the route
2. When the route was built, at the time, the west end of 980 was NOT an interstate, but was Route 17.  I don't know if the 880 designation was applied to the Nimitz by the time 980 opened.

According to Faigin's site, the section of 24 east of Oakland (specifically, from Route 13 to what was originally Route 21 until the 1960s) was submitted to the pre-natal form of the Interstate system in 1945, only to be rejected.  Other than the three-bore tunnel, the current freeway is Interstate standard though, particularly between the east end of the Caldecott bores and I-680.

Quote from: myosh_tinoI would think that if CA-24 were to be renumbered as I-980, that change would be pretty quick once the state legislature gives its approval.

Well, I wouldn't be so quick to expect that: I-15 south of I-8 has been chargeable interstate since 1984, yet even though the route is full freeway, the signage switch from state to Interstate is awaiting the reconstruction of the 15/94 junction.  Likewise, the interstate-standard 210 freeway is already fully open east of Route 57, but has not been resubmitted to AASHTO for a third time just yet, pending the reconstruction of the 215/210 interchange.

Quote from: myosh_tinoIMO, signing CA-24 as I-980 is not going to result in a significant increase in truck traffic.  To get to Sacramento and points north and east, they'll use I-80.

I HAVE used 680/24 as an alternative to 80 to get from Fairfield to Oakland and the Bay Bridge, and I wonder how much more viable this will be once the fourth bore is opened.
Chris Sampang

J N Winkler

No more Interstates!  Keep 24!
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agentsteel53

#8
that would be the final truncation of 24, which was quite the long route back in the day.

how was 24 routed from Sacramento to its current terminus at 680 back in the day?  Multiplex with 21, take 242, then 4 to 160?
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rickmastfan67

Quote from: TheStranger on October 16, 2010, 05:09:37 AM
Quote from: Quillz on October 15, 2010, 05:53:44 PM
However, 3di with an odd leading digit are intended to be spurs that only meet an Interstate on one end.

The rule interpretation that Illinois has pioneered (that it only spurs off of its parent, not necessarily off of the Interstate system entirely) has become standard for most uses of the odd first digit, with the major exception of the I-376 extension near Pittsburgh - the only time an odd 3di intersects its parent twice!

Bzzzzz.  You've failed the Interstate test. :P  You've forgoten that I-520 in GA/SC intersects its parent twice. ;)

TheStranger

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on October 17, 2010, 12:18:02 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on October 16, 2010, 05:09:37 AM
Quote from: Quillz on October 15, 2010, 05:53:44 PM
However, 3di with an odd leading digit are intended to be spurs that only meet an Interstate on one end.

The rule interpretation that Illinois has pioneered (that it only spurs off of its parent, not necessarily off of the Interstate system entirely) has become standard for most uses of the odd first digit, with the major exception of the I-376 extension near Pittsburgh - the only time an odd 3di intersects its parent twice!

Bzzzzz.  You've failed the Interstate test. :P  You've forgoten that I-520 in GA/SC intersects its parent twice. ;)

Oh, that, I had forgotten. :P  Thanks for the reminder.

Isn't this eventually going to happen to I-540 in North Carolina as well?  Though that was proposed at first as I-640 IIRC.

Quote from: agentsteel53how was 24 routed from Sacramento to its current terminus at 680 back in the day?  Multiplex with 21, take 242, then 4 to 160?

Correct.  242 was legislatively defined in 1964 (when a never-built Concord bypass was proposed between today's 680/24 junction and Route 4 in Antioch), but was built as Route 24 (and upgraded to expressway in the 1950s), and signed as Route 24 until the late 1980s. 

The only portion of 160 that was never part of Route 24 is the segment north of Broadway.

Prior to the creation of Alternate US 40, Route 24 continued from Sacramento to Woodland via what was pre-1984 Route 16 (essentially, eastbound 24 on westbound 16!), then north along 113, 99, east on 20, and north/east along 70 to Reno Junction.

Chris Sampang

deathtopumpkins

It's already happened to NC's I-540. It meets I-40 on each end, and will eventually (with the completion of NC-540) form a full loop.
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rickmastfan67

#12
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 17, 2010, 11:29:38 AM
It's already happened to NC's I-540. It meets I-40 on each end, and will eventually (with the completion of NC-540) form a full loop.

No it hasn't yet.  I-540 only intersects I-40 once so far in NC (NC-540 doesn't count since it's considered a different route).  But it will eventually intersect I-40 twice.

Quillz

Quote from: flowmotion on October 16, 2010, 12:44:38 AM
I think you guys have fabricated this "interstate at one end" rule. Bay Area geography is weird, and therefore so are some of the I numbers, but this is clearly a spur route.

In regards to the OP, I'm not sure what has changed. IIRC I-980 has always suddenly disappeared just east of I-580.

I am guessing they will be very slow to sign 24 as 980, mostly because Caltrans is lazy, but also because the sedate upper-class towns on the route will oppose additional truck traffic.
No, it's not a fabrication. From what I've read, odd-numbered 3di Interstates are generally supposed to act like spurs and only meet their parent at one end. I thought that it could *ONLY* meet an Interstate at one end, apparently it can meet an Interstate at the other end so long as its not either the parent route or a sibling route.

But, of course, this is theoretical. The reality is the rule is rarely followed simply because urban areas generally need as many Interstates as they can get and don't really have the funding or care to absolutely follow guidelines. I think the Bay Area represents this perfectly... During the 1980s, CalTRANS worked so hard to get Interstates in and around the Bay Area that they used up every single x80 3di and thus had to create the infamous I-238. (I-180 was never available due to CA-180 and I-480 has been available since 1991 but apparently won't be revived because it reminds people too much of the Embarcadero Freeway.)



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