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New York

Started by Alex, August 18, 2009, 12:34:57 AM

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seicer

Gotcha. Thank you! I thought it was more than just an overlay but only saw the immediate before and after product.


Buffaboy

Information regarding the Skyway repairs. Looks like they're actually putting in a new deck, because when I drive by earlier the northbound side was completely ripped up.

https://www.dot.ny.gov/doing-business/opportunities/const-contract-docs?p_d_id=D263566
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seicer

Skyway closures begin as two-year construction project starts

So this project only extends the life of the bridge another 20 years. What happens at the end of its life cycle? Built in 1956, by the time it reaches that point, it will be 84 years old.

I've seen ideas - by politicians and groups all around Buffalo, that want to see it removed and I assume replaced with a grade level replacement with a drawbridge. How often is the river used by large boats anymore? Nearly all of the mills further east are closed.

Beltway

Quote from: seicer on May 01, 2018, 07:30:21 AM
Skyway closures begin as two-year construction project starts
So this project only extends the life of the bridge another 20 years. What happens at the end of its life cycle? Built in 1956, by the time it reaches that point, it will be 84 years old.
I've seen ideas - by politicians and groups all around Buffalo, that want to see it removed and I assume replaced with a grade level replacement with a drawbridge. How often is the river used by large boats anymore? Nearly all of the mills further east are closed.

I see about 100 sailboats docked on the Buffalo River on satellite view.  Masts on some can exceed 50 feet in height.  A drawbridge would not be a good idea unless it was high enough to accommodate them without being opened.
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Buffaboy

I doubt a drawbridge would be a good idea considering the level of barge activity. I'm sure General Mills would oppose it.

Also by the way, I drove into downtown today and it was very awkward going northbound on the southbound side.
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Rothman

Are any plans to expand the Welland Canal now totally mothballed?  I would imagine that would come into play as well in determining the consequences of a lower bridge?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Alps

Quote from: Buffaboy on May 01, 2018, 08:32:42 AM
I doubt a drawbridge would be a good idea considering the level of barge activity. I'm sure General Mills would oppose it.

Also by the way, I drove into downtown today and it was very awkward going northbound on the southbound side.
Every detail sounds the same as the Pulaski Skyway  I sincerely hope your project does not extend as long.

seicer

Future of Skyway looms with new construction

"...many drivers refuse to use during the winter months..."

Is this a thing? I knew it was a high structure and that during high winds/winter conditions can prompt its closure, but wow.

"As the current construction project continues, the state is simultaneously spending an additional $6 million to study long-term options for the Skyway's use."

So they are studying its replacement while rebuilding the deck. With EIS and planning taking an absurd amount of time these days, we could very well be seeing the Skyway needing to last another 20 years  ;-)

Beltway

Another 20 years is a fine goal ... that is a long time.
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webny99

Quote from: Beltway on May 01, 2018, 09:40:23 PM
Another 20 years is a fine goal ... that is a long time.

Yikes. If there's going to be political and environmental issues slowing it down (and there always is), they'll need the time. It can take years to even decide on a replacement alternative these days.

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on May 01, 2018, 09:40:23 PM
Another 20 years is a fine goal ... that is a long time.
No it isn't, in the scheme of roads. If you're going to rebuild a structure, people are going to want to see at least 30 years out of it.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on May 01, 2018, 10:36:07 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 01, 2018, 09:40:23 PM
Another 20 years is a fine goal ... that is a long time.
No it isn't, in the scheme of roads. If you're going to rebuild a structure, people are going to want to see at least 30 years out of it.

Well, here is what the article said, "for at least two decades".  So that could be 3 or more, we need to find out what design year the DOT is using.

Few roads in Buffalo have as much history as the Skyway, which has towered over Lake Erie and the city's skyline since the mid-1950s.  On Monday, this portion of Route 5 entered a new era with the start of a $29 million reconstruction project.  The renovation will keep the Skyway viable for at least two decades, according to a spokesperson for the New York State Department of Transportation.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
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Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on May 01, 2018, 10:58:34 PM
Quote from: Alps on May 01, 2018, 10:36:07 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 01, 2018, 09:40:23 PM
Another 20 years is a fine goal ... that is a long time.
No it isn't, in the scheme of roads. If you're going to rebuild a structure, people are going to want to see at least 30 years out of it.

Well, here is what the article said, "for at least two decades".  So that could be 3 or more, we need to find out what design year the DOT is using.

Few roads in Buffalo have as much history as the Skyway, which has towered over Lake Erie and the city's skyline since the mid-1950s.  On Monday, this portion of Route 5 entered a new era with the start of a $29 million reconstruction project.  The renovation will keep the Skyway viable for at least two decades, according to a spokesperson for the New York State Department of Transportation.
$29 million isn't all that much in the scheme of things. They could also be hedging their bets on the low end with a public statement. I feel a bit better about it now.

Buffaboy

In the wintertime I will drive full speed, 55 MPH on this bridge. Even in high winds (okay maybe not 55). It just comes with having driven on it literally thousands of times.

They want to replace it with a drawbridge or a tunnel...that would break my heart as the scenery from the top is pretty much unparalleled, and a viable alternative for southtowns traffic is never discussed.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

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Beltway

Quote from: Alps on May 02, 2018, 12:15:14 AM
Quote from: Beltway on May 01, 2018, 10:58:34 PM
Well, here is what the article said, "for at least two decades".  So that could be 3 or more, we need to find out what design year the DOT is using.
Few roads in Buffalo have as much history as the Skyway, which has towered over Lake Erie and the city's skyline since the mid-1950s.  On Monday, this portion of Route 5 entered a new era with the start of a $29 million reconstruction project.  The renovation will keep the Skyway viable for at least two decades, according to a spokesperson for the New York State Department of Transportation.
$29 million isn't all that much in the scheme of things. They could also be hedging their bets on the low end with a public statement. I feel a bit better about it now.

What are the exact elements of the rebab project?
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Beltway

Quote from: Buffaboy on May 02, 2018, 02:02:33 AM
In the wintertime I will drive full speed, 55 MPH on this bridge. Even in high winds (okay maybe not 55). It just comes with having driven on it literally thousands of times.
They want to replace it with a drawbridge or a tunnel...that would break my heart as the scenery from the top is pretty much unparalleled, and a viable alternative for southtowns traffic is never discussed.

I can't imagine the cost of a tunnel.  A drawbridge is probably going to need at least 65 feet of clearance when closed.  That is the height used for fixed bridges for pleasure boats and barges on the Atlantic Intracoastal Waterway.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

seicer

Some nuggets I found at https://www.dot.ny.gov/regional-offices/region5/repository/FinalReport-ExecutiveSummary10-20-08.pdf :

"With today's technology, particularly if prefabricated deck units are utilized, 75 years of reliable service is a realistic expectation..."

How is this so? I am assuming this is ignoring every other aspect of the bridge, which would need overhaul far faster than a 75-year-old bridge deck. By then, this bridge would be well over 100 years old!

I can't find the article I was looking at last night, but it had statistics for the amount of traffic that enters the Buffalo River. I think that the river is down to just 2 customers that would be impacted if a drawbridge was built. But what if it was a higher elevation crossing - somewhere in between Michigan Avenue and the Skyway? The Skyway is already below capacity, and if openings could be minimized to just the largest of ships, that might be a decent compromise.

Beltway

Quote from: seicer on May 02, 2018, 07:40:38 AM
I can't find the article I was looking at last night, but it had statistics for the amount of traffic that enters the Buffalo River. I think that the river is down to just 2 customers that would be impacted if a drawbridge was built. But what if it was a higher elevation crossing - somewhere in between Michigan Avenue and the Skyway? The Skyway is already below capacity, and if openings could be minimized to just the largest of ships, that might be a decent compromise.

Depends on the drawbridge clearance when closed.  Satellite view shows about 100 sailboats docked on the river.  Some sailboats have masts over 50 feet high.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

cl94

Quote from: Beltway on May 02, 2018, 08:52:23 AM
Quote from: seicer on May 02, 2018, 07:40:38 AM
I can't find the article I was looking at last night, but it had statistics for the amount of traffic that enters the Buffalo River. I think that the river is down to just 2 customers that would be impacted if a drawbridge was built. But what if it was a higher elevation crossing - somewhere in between Michigan Avenue and the Skyway? The Skyway is already below capacity, and if openings could be minimized to just the largest of ships, that might be a decent compromise.

Depends on the drawbridge clearance when closed.  Satellite view shows about 100 sailboats docked on the river.  Some sailboats have masts over 50 feet high.

None of the boats there have particularly high masts, but you'd still need a clearance of 40-50 feet to avoid a ridiculous amount of openings.  A new crossing near Ohio Street might work (still movable). Main commercial customer on the river is General Mills, but there's commercial use down to Silo City right now.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Buffaboy

If it ain't broke then don't fix it. Other than the current setup with the Skyway, I think the only way to keep the freeway configuration is by shifting it a little to the east between Katherine St and Louisiana St and then adding a SPUI with South Park ave., then joining I-190 with a Y interchange that only has northbound access. Southbound traffic would use the Smith St. exit.

A signature bridge with only a few piers, something like the Kosciuszko Bridge, would be perfect. 4-6 lane Interstate grade bridge with decent shoulders and 12 foot travel lanes with LED lighting shouldn't cost more than $100-200m.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

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seicer

Is that even needed? The VPD counts for the Skyway are well below its designed capacity and isn't projected to grow. With the Thruway to the east, the notion that NY 5 is a through route is over - but it is still an important regional connector. I think outside of the question of the bridge type that's needed - is an expressway with the overly complicated ramp situation at its northern terminus necessary?

cl94

Quote from: seicer on May 02, 2018, 11:44:43 AM
Is that even needed? The VPD counts for the Skyway are well below its designed capacity and isn't projected to grow. With the Thruway to the east, the notion that NY 5 is a through route is over - but it is still an important regional connector. I think outside of the question of the bridge type that's needed - is an expressway with the overly complicated ramp situation at its northern terminus necessary?

AADT is around 40,000 with PHVs of 3,300 EB and 2,700 WB in 2013. You'd need a pretty beefy surface road to accommodate that and the Thruway doesn't have the capacity to take the overflow. NY 78 in Amherst/Lancaster/Clarence has similar AADT (but PHV peaks a little over half those on NY 5) and it's constantly congested save overnight hours. The big problem with NY 5 is the high peaks; it's the only major road in the Buffalo area that has highly-directional traffic to that extent.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Buffaboy

#3572
As a daily Skyway commuter I can attest to the fact that traffic will often get backed up to Ridge Road during morning rush hour and well past Ridge Road for the evening rush hour.

In addition, there's the potential for several big industrial parks to come online...the Lake Erie Industrial Park where Fedex is, Buffalo Lakeside Commerce Park adjacent to Tifft St, and the massive Bethlehem Steel industrial park that's in creation. All would feed into the Skyway.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

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froggie

With coordinated signals and at least 60% green time for NY 5 through traffic a 6-lane arterial could handle that volume.  I'd probably stick with a 4-lane freeway, though.  40K is a bit high for a 4-lane arterial.  And despite Buffaboy's commutes, those PHV's don't really warrant 6 lanes and some congestion during peak commuting hours is to be expected anyway.

Roadgeek Adam

My main problem with that section of 5 is the stretch through Woodlawn, which is 40 mph. The rest of it is 55 from the Skyway and some parts southwest. Woodlawn is basically a choke point. There's no way to fix this, even if you jersey barriered the median.
Adam Seth Moss
M.A. History, Western Illinois University 2015-17
B.A. History, Montclair State University 2013-15
A.A. History & Education - Middlesex (County) College 2009-13



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