Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

[froggie]

^ 3.  No, Mike is correct.  If the 4th lane is extended from the lane that ends at the SB off-ramp to 123, the SB bridge over Occoquan Rd (the "old VA 253" he referenced) would need to be widened in order to provide a proper merge taper for the on-ramp from SB 123.

Meanwhile, regarding this:

What if you only know one person you work with? Or you do not have the ability to carpool? They assume everybody has access to carpool, which simply isn't true.

Sounds like you're not familiar with how the slug lines work along I-95.  Do you even know what a "slug line" is?

[sprjus4]

^ 3.  No, Mike is correct.  If the 4th lane is extended from the lane that ends at the SB off-ramp to 123, the SB bridge over Occoquan Rd (the "old VA 253" he referenced) would need to be widened in order to provide a proper merge taper for the on-ramp from SB 123.

The ramp could be modified to still provide enough acceleration before the bridge. This concept would remove only around 200ft of acceleration compared to the existing, and not require a bridge widening -

Sounds like you're not familiar with how the slug lines work along I-95.  Do you even know what a "slug line" is?

Yes, I am aware of slugging. I would rather not have total strangers in my car, thank you. Some people would, that's fine. Not everybody does.

[oscar]

Yes, I am aware of slugging. I would rather not have total strangers in my car, thank you. Some people would, that's fine. Not everybody does.

You could view the slug lines as opportunities to find and make new friends, and form a regular car pool (occasionally taking on a rider if one of your regulars is unavailable), with people going where you're going.

I don't have personal experience with slugging since I live so close to my former workplace in downtown D.C., and often commuted outside normal rush hours (now I'm retired). But the I-95/395 informal carpools have a long history and reputation for working smoothly and safely, with the customs that have evolved around them to make both drivers and riders comfortable with the arrangement. Certainly enough people are comfortable with carpooling, or commuter buses for something more impersonal, to provide some relief to the people in the regular lanes.

[sprjus4]

Yes, I am aware of slugging. I would rather not have total strangers in my car, thank you. Some people would, that's fine. Not everybody does.

You could view the slug lines as opportunities to find and make new friends, and form a regular car pool (occasionally taking on a rider if one of your regulars is unavailable), with people going where you're going.

I don't have personal experience with slugging since I live so close to my former workplace in downtown D.C., and often commuted outside normal rush hours (now I'm retired). But the I-95/395 informal carpools have a long history and reputation for working smoothly and safely, with the customs that have evolved around them to make both drivers and riders comfortable with the arrangement. Certainly enough people are comfortable with carpooling, or commuter buses for something more impersonal, to provide some relief to the people in the regular lanes.

I wouldn't be able to say, I'm in Hampton Roads, I don't know too much about them, but I know what they are.

And they do work it seems. Still, it's not convenient for some people either way. People could have different work schedules, have variable work times on a day to day basis, it doesn't always work sometimes. For a fixed job, it can. Still, I think we can all agree I-95 needs improvements in the general purpose lanes.

[froggie]

The ramp could be modified to still provide enough acceleration before the bridge.

The way you modified the ramp in your graphic A) does not meet design standards and B ) reduces the speed at which on-ramp traffic would hit the end of the ramp.

[sprjus4]

The ramp could be modified to still provide enough acceleration before the bridge.

The way you modified the ramp in your graphic A) does not meet design standards and B ) reduces the speed at which on-ramp traffic would hit the end of the ramp.

My graphic was a sketched up design. Of course a real ramp would meet standards, and could follow this general alignment. 10 foot right shoulders on the ramp, 12 foot lane. The loop ramp just before it has an even smaller acceleration lane, and a low speed.

If you would like, I'll take this in more advance software and sketch it to meet full standards with proper curvature, etc.?

You don't need to widen the overpass to do this.

[Beltway]

Not true, review the FHWA article I posted.

That article is at least 10 years old, citing the fact I-495 Express Lanes wasn't even built yet. Agreed, SOV vehicles will use the lanes if the toll is reasonable. 10 years ago, and not on I-95, tolls are likely affordable on those other facilities, or simply more reasonable. $30 on I-95 / I-495 during rush hour or $50 on I-66 one-way is not reasonable. When it's less, there's usually not enough traffic to warrant even paying a toll. Fact is a lot more SOV drivers don't pay the tolls. Evidence? Look at the I-95 GP lanes.

I'll be glad to find more recent articles, that was just one of the first to come up.  MWCOG has done favorable research on the HOT lanes.

We live in a global economy, I am not a xenophobe who doesn't want to do business with a company from another country, just to stoke American Pride.

I'm not either. I'm just not willing to pay an expensive price for something not even worth that much.

Then don't.  Nobody is forcing you to use them.  Lots of people find it a product worth the price.

far less in off-peak hours.

Why would someone waste any money if there's no congestion in the GP lanes? The toll is low when there's no congestion, which is what I'm assuming you're referring to.

I don't know what kind of congestion might be in the next 11 miles of I-495, or in the next 28 miles of I-95, or could occur after I am already on that highway, maybe due to an accident or a truck cargo spill.  Even in low traffic periods I have been willing to pay the $1.50 or so for I-495, and the $4.00 or so for I-95.  Usually there is no congestion.  Money well spent, IMHO.

E-ZPass makes it easy to spend the money, you don't have to stop, you don't have to pull money out of your pocket, it gets automatically added to an account.

I'm not going to tell you how to use your money though, that's your personal decision, not mine. I'm just putting my opinion out there.

You are the one that is complaining about everybody else's financial decisions.

Fact is that enough people use the HOT lanes to use all the capacity during peak hours.

HO/T lanes - have great capacity.
GP lanes - constant congestion

Hyperbole.  It is not "constant".

Why do they want to keep adding HO/T lanes, when the GP lanes need relief (and I don't mean more HO/T lanes, we see where they already exist, I-95 is still a huge mess)? Because tax payers don't have to pay for it, and gov't can have someone else do their work. Not seeing any other reason.

HOT lanes are dynamically priced to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  Maybe the all the GP lanes need to be dynamically priced as well, to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  Even having 4 GP lanes each way will not be a panacea, traffic will grow, maybe they all need to be dynamically priced.

Because they would congest at HOV-2.  Because they want to keep car and van pools (HOV-3+) toll free, to encourage the use of car and van pools.

What if you only know one person you work with? Or you do not have the ability to carpool? They assume everybody has access to carpool, which simply isn't true.

That's baloney any way you slice it.

Nobody is assuming that "everybody has access to carpool".  Decisions have to be made, not everybody on the roads gets everything that they want, you probably hate waiting at traffic signals as well. 

In this system if you have less than 3 occupants you pay a toll.

[sprjus4]

I'll be glad to find more recent articles, that was just one of the first to come up.  MWCOG has done favorable research on the HOT lanes.

I don't need your newspaper articles to change my opinion. They won't. Plus, you've said many times in the past newspaper articles are unreliable. That doesn't change when you have something to present either.

All I've seen from all this is the absolute love for constant HO/T, HO/T, HO/T because it doesn't use any taxpayer money, private investors love it, the gov't loves it because they don't have to pay for it, and the wealthy folk and people such as yourself who can afford the tolls and use I-95 / I-495 infrequently. Of course it has positive attention. The real issues are ignored - everything outside the two little lanes in median. Those things that are still heavily congested - they're called the general purpose lanes in case they were forgotten about. 200,000+ AADT, and still only 6 lanes wide, and in an urban area. An 8 lane freeway would still have some issues, but it would significantly relieve congestion for the general purpose travelers. But wait - since it involves the gov't actually spending money and doing work themselves, they push it off constantly. They do little interchange improvements which do barely any help for mainline traffic.

The Fredericksburg project is long overdue and is now finally getting done because it's gotten so bad. A study done by VDOT themselves about a decade ago recommended I-95 got 8 GP lanes, actually it said 3 GP + 2 C/D + 2 HO/T from Fredericksburg to DC. Why aren't they following those recommendations or even considering or studying them more in depth? HO/T lanes take over all the attention. Those little two reversible lanes in the median is what's important. Screw the rest of the folks.

Then don't.  Nobody is forcing you to use them.  Lots of people find it a product worth the price.

Okay. You do, I don't, and neither do a majority of drivers.

I don't know what kind of congestion might be in the next 11 miles of I-495, or in the next 28 miles of I-95, or could occur after I am already on that highway, maybe due to an accident or a truck cargo spill.  Even in low traffic periods I have been willing to pay the $1.50 or so for I-495, and the $4.00 or so for I-95.  Usually there is no congestion.  Money well spent, IMHO.

I'm not going to really input much, because it's your decision and not mine, but if I was driving I would consider that a waste, for me at least. Google Maps and Waze are good real-time traffic reports (better than VDOT), and if there were to be an accident, I'd rather get off the highway, bypass it via surface routes, and hop back on rather than pay a toll. And I certainly wouldn't pay a toll if the route has no traffic. When there's no traffic, that's money lost for nothing. My preference though, you have yours, others have theirs. I don't want to lead this into anything bigger, I'm simply stating my preferences.

E-ZPass makes it easy to spend the money, you don't have to stop, you don't have to pull money out of your pocket, it gets automatically added to an account.

I don't need your sales pitch on how E-ZPass works, I've owned one for over 10 years.

You are the one that is complaining about everybody else's financial decisions.

Actually, I'm really not, I'm explaining that a majority of drivers do not opt to drive in the HO/T lanes, and would rather see additional capacity on I-95 GP.

Hyperbole.  It is not "constant".

Drive the general purpose lanes at 2 PM on a Friday afternoon (or any afternoon for that matter) going southbound. No HO/T lanes. Tell me it's not an issue then.

HOT lanes are dynamically priced to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  Maybe the all the GP lanes need to be dynamically priced as well, to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  Even having 4 GP lanes each way will not be a panacea, traffic will grow, maybe they all need to be dynamically priced.

Yes, let's have an I-66 on this highway. $40 tolls during rush hour, everybody pays, it's a great day. Ooh, let's toll every urban freeway with $40 dynamic tolls.

Maybe in your fantasy universe of toll roads, but it doesn't work that way in reality.

you probably hate waiting at traffic signals as well.

Not really... rather do that than pay for tolls. So would many other people. This is a proven fact - it's called shunpiking. Or in the terms of HO/T lanes, sticking with the GP lanes despite congestion.

In this system if you have less than 3 occupants you pay a toll.

...for the reason Transurban gets to have extra money. All of the VDOT owned HO/T lanes currently operate HOV 2+, and the private ones are HOV 3+. Hmm...

[Beltway]

I'll be glad to find more recent articles, that was just one of the first to come up.  MWCOG has done favorable research on the HOT lanes.

I don't need your newspaper articles to change my opinion. They won't. Plus, you've said many times in the past newspaper articles are unreliable. That doesn't change when you have something to present either.

You are the one who posts newspaper articles.  Do you know what MWCOG is?  Before I just asked the question?

HOT lanes are dynamically priced to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  Maybe the all the GP lanes need to be dynamically priced as well, to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  Even having 4 GP lanes each way will not be a panacea, traffic will grow, maybe they all need to be dynamically priced.

Yes, let's have an I-66 on this highway. $40 tolls during rush hour, everybody pays, it's a great day. Ooh, let's toll every urban freeway with $40 dynamic tolls.
Maybe in your fantasy universe of toll roads, but it doesn't work that way in reality.

Did you smoke a reefer today?

Normal tolls would be much lower; only the last 1% or 2% of remaining capacity that need to be priced off of the highway would be asked to pay that.

Having 6 lanes each way on I-270 surely hasn't stopped it from being a very congested highway during peak hours.  Maybe the all the GP lanes need to be dynamically priced as well, to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.

In this system if you have less than 3 occupants you pay a toll.

...for the reason Transurban gets to have extra money. All of the VDOT owned HO/T lanes currently operate HOV 2+, and the private ones are HOV 3+. Hmm...

All the HOT lanes are owned by VDOT. 

[sprjus4]

You are the one who posts newspaper articles.  Do you know what MWCOG is?  Before I just asked the question?

Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments

Likely a biased group - of course they would agree with HO/T lanes and give all the positives. Do they have information regarding performance of the general purpose lanes, or is it all about those two little special lanes in the median?

HOT lanes are dynamically priced to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  Maybe the all the GP lanes need to be dynamically priced as well, to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  Even having 4 GP lanes each way will not be a panacea, traffic will grow, maybe they all need to be dynamically priced.

Yes, let's have an I-66 on this highway. $40 tolls during rush hour, everybody pays, it's a great day. Ooh, let's toll every urban freeway with $40 dynamic tolls.
Maybe in your fantasy universe of toll roads, but it doesn't work that way in reality.

Normal tolls would be much lower; only the last 1% or 2% of remaining capacity that need to be priced off of the highway would be asked to pay that.

Then what the hell is the point to toll it to begin with?

Having 6 lanes each way on I-270 surely hasn't stopped it from being a very congested highway during peak hours.  Maybe the all the GP lanes need to be dynamically priced as well, to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.

Majority of I-95 is under 200,000 AADT, though very close. I-270 is nearly 300,000 AADT.

HO/T lanes are coming to that corridor as well. 2 C/D + 5 GP + 2 HO/T in each direction. That will help.

[Beltway]

You are the one who posts newspaper articles.  Do you know what MWCOG is?  Before I just asked the question?

Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments
Likely a biased group - of course they would agree with HO/T lanes and give all the positives. Do they have information regarding performance of the general purpose lanes, or is it all about those two little special lanes in the median?

Really?  The Metropolitan Planning Organization is a governmental body, not some Johnny-Newspaper.

Normal tolls would be much lower; only the last 1% or 2% of remaining capacity that need to be priced off of the highway would be asked to pay that.

Then what the hell is the point to toll it to begin with?

Lanes dynamically priced to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  If it is well below capacity the toll would be little or nothing.

Having 6 lanes each way on I-270 surely hasn't stopped it from being a very congested highway during peak hours.  Maybe the all the GP lanes need to be dynamically priced as well, to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.

Majority of I-95 is under 200,000 AADT, though very close. I-270 is nearly 300,000 AADT.

"Addressing congestion by widening the highway is like loosening your belt to address obesity".

Sorry folks, I couldn't help it! 

[sprjus4]

Really?  The Metropolitan Planning Organization is a governmental body, not some Johnny-Newspaper.

So... a biased group.

Lanes dynamically priced to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  If it is well below capacity the toll would be little or nothing.

News flash - the toll on all of I-95 would be $20 to clear it.

And if you dynamically price all the lanes to keep it below maximum capacity, where does the rest of that capacity go? Does it just magically disappear?

"Addressing congestion by widening the highway is like loosening your belt to address obesity".

Sorry folks, I couldn't help it! 

And you loosen your belt enough, and it falls off.

[Beltway]

Really?  The Metropolitan Planning Organization is a governmental body, not some Johnny-Newspaper.

So... a biased group.

Newspapers aren't biased??

Lanes dynamically priced to keep peak traffic just below the maximum capacity.  If it is well below capacity the toll would be little or nothing.

News flash - the toll on all of I-95 would be $20 to clear it.
And if you dynamically price all the lanes to keep it below maximum capacity, where does the rest of that capacity go? Does it just magically disappear?

That doesn't compute or make any sense at all.

[sprjus4]

That doesn't compute or make any sense at all.

You toll I-95 high enough to get it at capacity, and not overcrowded. In order to do this, you would have to remove vehicles from the highway. Where do those vehicles go? Do they vanish?

[Alps]

I'm fixing to give you both a seven day ban if you don't both take a time out.

[sprjus4]

I'm fixing to give you both a seven day ban if you don't both take a time out.

What's the issue though? We're having a discussion about the HO/T lanes in Northern Virginia. I'm confused as to what I need to time out on. I'd like to know so I could. Could you elaborate?

[Beltway]

I'm fixing to give you both a seven day ban if you don't both take a time out.

What's the issue though? We're having a discussion about the HO/T lanes in Northern Virginia. I'm confused as to what I need to time out on. I'd like to know so I could. Could you elaborate?

Well for one thing, Alps, if you are talking to us, you need to engage us, perhaps in e-mail, and provide some details on what exactly the issues are, and exactly what you would define as a "time out".

I have already tried to assist the moderators in the I-87 thread, I can see what some of the issues might be, perhaps my input wasn't deemed helpful, but I have tried to assist.

[Alps]

The two of you are going back and forth with name-calling, naysaying...

Hyperbole.  It is not "constant".
...
That's baloney any way you slice it.

Maybe in your fantasy universe of toll roads, but it doesn't work that way in reality.

Etc.
I'm not your babysitter.

[sprjus4]

The two of you are going back and forth with name-calling, naysaying...

Hyperbole.  It is not "constant".
...
That's baloney any way you slice it.

Maybe in your fantasy universe of toll roads, but it doesn't work that way in reality.

Etc.
I'm not your babysitter.

So, basically, knock off the insults and name calling and we're good? The discussions in regards to the HO/T lanes shouldn't be banned itself, but I'll dial back. I understand you're not our "babysitter" , but you need to be more clear, I'm not trying to login with a 7 day block on my account if I can avoid that.

[jeffandnicole]

Sounds like you're just against the HOT lanes in general. If there are 4 regular lanes and 2 HOT lanes, the HOT lanes would have to be absolutely empty in order for there not to be a schmigion of congestion relief.

[Rothman]

Let them fight.

[odditude]

Let them fight.

i'd say this popcorn's gone stale.

i'm firmly in the camp of finding the 495 HOT lanes worth the price most of the time; my time is FAR more valuable to me. i am also NOT an expensive car owner, as anyone who's sat in the backseat of my Focus can attest.

would it be nicer if they were free? of course - but economic reality doesn't permit that.

[Beltway]

The two of you are going back and forth with name-calling, naysaying...

Hyperbole.  It is not "constant".
...
That's baloney any way you slice it.

Maybe in your fantasy universe of toll roads, but it doesn't work that way in reality.

Etc.
I'm not your babysitter.

Well, comparing this to the misc.transport.road days?  Words like hyperbole and baloney are rather tame and certainly are not abusive.

Sprjus4 has staked out some rather controversial positions and I don't see why I should just acquiesce to them.

[sprjus4]

The two of you are going back and forth with name-calling, naysaying...

Hyperbole.  It is not "constant".
...
That's baloney any way you slice it.

Maybe in your fantasy universe of toll roads, but it doesn't work that way in reality.

Etc.
I'm not your babysitter.

Well, comparing this to the misc.transport.road days?  Words like hyperbole and baloney are rather tame and certainly are not abusive.

Sprjus4 has staked out some rather controversial positions and I don't see why I should just acquiesce to them.

Let them fight.

i'd say this popcorn's gone stale.

i'm firmly in the camp of finding the 495 HOT lanes worth the price most of the time; my time is FAR more valuable to me. i am also NOT an expensive car owner, as anyone who's sat in the backseat of my Focus can attest.

would it be nicer if they were free? of course - but economic reality doesn't permit that.

Sounds like you're just against the HOT lanes in general. If there are 4 regular lanes and 2 HOT lanes, the HOT lanes would have to be absolutely empty in order for there not to be a schmigion of congestion relief.

Look, I'm not against the HO/T lanes, and I really don't have any issues with I-495. It's a well-done highway, 8 lanes wide, 2 HO/T lanes in each direction, and certainly would be more congested if it only had 6 lanes.

To summarize it...

My real point, and I think this is an easy one to agree with - I-95 needs to be widened to 8 lanes in the general purpose lanes, interchanges need to be reconfigured, auxiliary lanes between every interchange, etc. There needs to be relief to the hundreds of thousands of vehicles per day who do not wish to a pay toll. It's not all about the two reversible lanes, and screw everybody else. They need relief as well, and tax dollars & public funding needs to go towards it. After the Springfield Interchange, and Woodrow Wilson Bridge, billions of dollars for project in DC have mainly consisted have private companies, no gov't involvement in them, no tax dollars, and tolls. Maybe a couple hundred million in tax dollar & public funding. What they need to do now is launch a study to figure out how all this could be done, how much it would cost, etc.

They've refused to even study it, because of the HO/T lanes. That's my issue. I'm not against the HO/T lanes, but they need to be one component to fixing I-95, not the only one. Toll-free solutions need to be incorporated to. The Rappahannock River Crossing is a great start, and it needs to be expanded north to the Occoquan. To start, they need to launch a study. That would be something.

I don't want this to be controversial, I'm just trying to explain what I, and thousands of people believe should happen. Thousands of others disagree and think the HO/T lanes is what should be invested in. Others think screw the GP and HO/T in general, let's just put transit everywhere. Everybody has their own views. I'm sorry if I came off otherwise.

[Beltway]

Look, I'm not against the HO/T lanes, and I really don't have any issues with I-495. It's a
[...... snip ...... ]

Look, you've repeated essentially the same thing dozens of times.  People are getting tired of the amount of bandwidth this argument is taking up.  How about discussing a new topic somewhere on this board?