Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

[1995hoo]

Nonsense.  It would have been closed to vehicles with less than 3 people, and now some of them are removed from the GP lanes.

In fairness, the broken record posted at 18:07. At that time, HOV wouldn't have been in effect under the most recent HOV rules.

Open to all traffic southbound at 6:01 PM?

Sounds like a recipe for congestion in the express roadway.

It did indeed open to all traffic at 18:00, and it got backed up within five minutes. A lot of assholes parked on the shoulder every night near Eads Street for up to 30 minutes waiting for 6:00 so they could race into the reversible lanes right as HOV ended. (To be clear, I didn't object to timing one's entry–I objected to parking on the shoulder to wait.)

Though the Arlington County Police (and to a lesser extent the Virginia State Police) were aware of this practice and would show up a few minutes before the end of the HOV-3 restricted period and issue summonses to the offending drivers.

That was actually part of what was dangerous–the shoulder-waiters would see the cops coming and would recklessly bomb out into traffic in an effort to avoid getting ticketed.

[hbelkins]

Click-click ... click-click ... click-click ... click-click ... click-click ... click-click ... click-click ... click-click ...

You lost me. What's clicking exactly?

Not this thread.

Not for at least one person, anyway, as I'm told. Not sure if that applies to more than one person or not. Only one of them is connected with me elsewhere and can keep me updated on things.

[sprjus4]

Daily Press: I-64′s new Norfolk toll lanes boosted rush-hour speeds, even in the free lanes, state study finds

But for drivers on the same stretch earlier in the afternoon, traveling at 3 p.m. on the free lanes, average speed fell, from 55 mph to 37. In years past, drivers could travel at that time on what are now HOT lanes for free, even if they had no passengers. Now, tolls for such vehicles start at 2 p.m., and the result has been a nearly 2,400-vehicle drop in traffic at mid-afternoon, before the peak of the rush hour.

Another big change seems to be that some commuters can sleep in a bit – there's been an 800-vehicle drop in 5 a.m. to 6 a.m. westbound traffic on the reversible lanes. Drivers used to be able to travel for free at that time on the reversible lanes, even if they had no passengers.

From the HRTPO Express Lanes Working Committee recommendations -

To minimize impacts to the Region's motorists, the Committee recommends that, wherever practicable, the roadways that make up the Express Lanes Network be restricted to HOT operation during peak traffic times and be open to all traffic outside of the restricted periods.

In consideration of policy recommendations to HRTPO, the Committee recommends that HRTAC consider the following items when developing the master tolling agreement with VDOT:
- Prioritize traffic throughput over revenue generation.

[sprjus4]

Send an e-mail and ask them, or VDOT.  Summary data should be available by FOIA request.

Wrote them a request inquiry the other day regarding this...

I had a question regarding overall usage of the HO/T lanes, specifically the amount of local traffic that uses it compared to long-distance / out of state thru traffic. Would it be possible to get those numbers on the amount / percentage of traffic usage on a daily / annual basis compared to long-distance / out of state thru traffic compared to local traffic? I would imagine this data is allowed to be requested and released and is in public record. Thank you

...and this was the response...

Thank you for contacting Express Lanes Customer Care.

It will be my pleasure to assist you with your inquiry.

We apologize for any inconvenience. Your requested details are currently not available.

For further questions, please contact us at 1-855-495-9777, Monday through Friday (7:00 AM to 7:00 PM).

Safe Travels,

Bien G.
Express Lanes Customer Care

[jeffandnicole]

Send an e-mail and ask them, or VDOT.  Summary data should be available by FOIA request.

Wrote them a request inquiry the other day regarding this...

I had a question regarding overall usage of the HO/T lanes, specifically the amount of local traffic that uses it compared to long-distance / out of state thru traffic. Would it be possible to get those numbers on the amount / percentage of traffic usage on a daily / annual basis compared to long-distance / out of state thru traffic compared to local traffic? I would imagine this data is allowed to be requested and released and is in public record. Thank you

...and this was the response...

Thank you for contacting Express Lanes Customer Care.

It will be my pleasure to assist you with your inquiry.

We apologize for any inconvenience. Your requested details are currently not available.

For further questions, please contact us at 1-855-495-9777, Monday through Friday (7:00 AM to 7:00 PM).

Safe Travels,

Bien G.
Express Lanes Customer Care

You'll need to write a FOIA request thru the state. If the info is releasable, they'll have the power to get it.

Sometimes you may need to be specific. The way you wrote it may be ok or they may say it's, not specific enough.  Specifically, you may need to define "local traffic" as in within a specific zip code range, or account holders with a Virginia address. Likewise, define long-distance or out-of-state to be the opposite of local traffic.

[hbelkins]

If it's a state vendor, then the information would be available through whatever the Commonwealth of Virginia calls its FOIA or state Open Records Act. (Kentucky calls it "Open Records" under Kentucky Revised Statutes Chapter 61.) A reporter in Louisville makes a monthly request for records relating to the Louisville toll bridges. KYTC accommodates those requests.

The Express Lanes "customer care" representative probably doesn't know beans about the availability of government records, but VDOT certainly will. The trick may be finding out exactly who to contact. KYTC requires the request to be made of the Office of Legal Services in Frankfort. Requests to the district offices, or to other offices within the cabinet (such as Public Affairs, which handles press inquiries) are redirected to Legal Services.

[cpzilliacus]

The Express Lanes "customer care" representative probably doesn't know beans about the availability of government records, but VDOT certainly will. The trick may be finding out exactly who to contact. KYTC requires the request to be made of the Office of Legal Services in Frankfort. Requests to the district offices, or to other offices within the cabinet (such as Public Affairs, which handles press inquiries) are redirected to Legal Services.

I believe that H.B. is correct.  Try this page for starters, which is the VDOT Freedom of Information Act page.

Freedom of Information Act

Here's the contact person at VDOT for FOIA matters:

Holly D. Jones
VDOT Annex Building
1401 E. Broad St., 11th floor
Richmond, Virginia 23219
804-371-8696

e-mail: Holly.Jones@vdot.virginia.gov

Disclaimer - I do not know Holly Jones and Holly Jones does not know me.

[AlexandriaVA]

Can we make a separate thread to discuss the philosophical arguments for and against HOT lane and associated arcane legal matters?

In the meanwhile, thousands of commuters used the Northern Virginia HOT today, and thousands will tomorrow as well.

[Beltway]

I drove the I-395 HOT lanes southbound Tuesday evening entering about 7:50 pm.

I went thru D.C. using US-50 freeway, Kenilworth Avenue (freeway), I-695 and I-395.

I entered the express lanes in D.C. from the GP lanes near the Jefferson Memorial, and crossed the middle 14th Street Bridge, and then followed the HOT lanes all the way to where they end at Garrisonville.

Very fine trip and newly paved 3-lane express roadway on I-395 and that roadway continues as the I-95 3-lane express roadway.

The toll was $2.20 on I-395, starting near the Pentagon where you can exit to the GP lanes if you don't want to enter the HOT lanes.  So the 14th Street Bridge southbound express roadway has no toll, but is HOV-3. 

Has anyone driven the I-395 HOT lanes northbound?  Is there a toll for the 14th Street Bridge northbound express roadway?  If it is untolled is there any way to enter it other than the HOT lanes?

The toll for the I-95 HOT lanes was $9.50. 

I would say that the I-395 HOT lanes were running at 20-25% of capacity and the I-95 HOT lanes were running at 20-30% capacity.  That is just eyeball of my surroundings and not meant to be scientific.

[jeffandnicole]

The Express Lanes "customer care" representative probably doesn't know beans about the availability of government records, but VDOT certainly will. The trick may be finding out exactly who to contact. KYTC requires the request to be made of the Office of Legal Services in Frankfort. Requests to the district offices, or to other offices within the cabinet (such as Public Affairs, which handles press inquiries) are redirected to Legal Services.

I believe that H.B. is correct.  Try this page for starters, which is the VDOT Freedom of Information Act page.

Freedom of Information Act

Here's the contact person at VDOT for FOIA matters:

Holly D. Jones
VDOT Annex Building
1401 E. Broad St., 11th floor
Richmond, Virginia 23219
804-371-8696

e-mail: Holly.Jones@vdot.virginia.gov

Disclaimer - I do not know Holly Jones and Holly Jones does not know me.

Would someone contact her directly, or thru a main FOIA email address?  I know NJ has a specific form/email group that must be used...emails to a person's state account doesn't count.

[1995hoo]

To answer Beltway's question about the northbound HO/T lanes on I-395: I have not used them yet (planning to on Wednesday morning). The inbound 14th Street Bridge itself isn't tolled–it's in DC and VDOT doesn't own it–but the approach to the bridge is tolled. If you look back in this thread at reply 1590, you'll find I posted a picture showing where the last toll gantry is, circled in yellow. So there is no (legal or practical) way to get to the inbound express lane bridge without going under a toll gantry. Notably, this includes people entering at Ramp G, the slip ramp from the mainline that's just east of the mall at Pentagon City and just west of the southbound flyover to US-1 through Crystal City–the ramp whose VMS has read "open to all traffic"  for most of the past 30 years.

The toll for that segment has produced a lot of grousing on Twitter and elsewhere. Unsurprisingly, during rush hours it's been a very high toll for the distance travelled compared to the rest of the HO/T lanes in order to keep the traffic flow moving.

[1995hoo]

Can we make a separate thread to discuss the philosophical arguments for and against HOT lane and associated arcane legal matters?

In the meanwhile, thousands of commuters used the Northern Virginia HOT today, and thousands will tomorrow as well.

[sprjus4]

So the 14th Street Bridge southbound express roadway has no toll, but is HOV-3. 

The 14th Street Bridges didn't have HOV restrictions, they were open to all traffic, even during peak hours. The southbound bridge remains such, but the Transurban put up toll gantries to charge people northbound for crossing DC's bridge, which isn't even apart of the HO/T system and isn't owned by Virginia.

[1995hoo]

So the 14th Street Bridge southbound express roadway has no toll, but is HOV-3. 

The 14th Street Bridges didn't have HOV restrictions, they were open to all traffic, even during peak hours. The southbound bridge remains such, but the Transurban put up toll gantries to charge people northbound for crossing DC's bridge, which isn't even apart of the HO/T system and isn't owned by Virginia.

They're charging people for using the road that leads to the bridge. VDOT is allowed to do that, just like how in the old days the road leading to the bridge was subject to an HOV-4 restriction at all times.

There's a guy who comments on Washington Post articles who thinks that last toll gantry violates the US Constitution's Commerce Clause. He's pretty obviously wrong, given the adjacent unrestricted alternative. But I give him points for thinking creatively and not just whining like most of the other people who comment there. It seems the average 21st-century style of commenting is, "These tolls suck, and if you don't agree with me, you suck too. Also, blame the (fill in whichever political party you dislike) because they suck."

[sprjus4]

It seems the average 21st-century style of commenting is, "These tolls suck, and if you don't agree with me, you suck too. Also, blame the (fill in whichever political party you dislike) because they suck."

Except I've never / rarely  seen that weak complaint used. The majority of the complaints I've seen on the internet (some road geeks would be surprised to learn it's a decent amount) about the HO/T lane boil down to two logical arguments -

- Transurban is tolling lanes 24/7 that were previously only restricted to peak hours and open to all traffic all other hours free of charge.
- Transurban is tolling DC's bridge which A) was never tolled / restricted recently previously and B) they are tolling a bridge that don't own and never improved.

[1995hoo]

That second complaint about "tolling DC's bridge"  is simply incorrect.

[jemacedo9]

That second complaint about “tolling DC’s bridge” is simply incorrect.

If the approach to the bridge is tolled, and there is no way to get exit after the toll gantry and before the bridge...then one cannot access the bridge without paying a toll, even if the bridge itself technically isn't tolled.

Is that the situation?

[1995hoo]

That second complaint about "tolling DC's bridge"  is simply incorrect.

If the approach to the bridge is tolled, and there is no way to get exit after the toll gantry and before the bridge...then one cannot access the bridge without paying a toll, even if the bridge itself technically isn't tolled.

Is that the situation?

I said that earlier. I was very careful to say that the approach is tolled (unless you're an HOV) such that there is no legal or practical way to reach it without passing under a gantry. But the bridge itself is not tolled.

If someone thinks VDOT can't toll the approach to the bridge simply because the bridge itself isn't in Virginia, then there are a bunch of other tollbooths (or toll gantries) around the country that are improper because they effectively require the payment of a toll to use some portion of pavement that's in another state.

[jemacedo9]

That second complaint about “tolling DC’s bridge” is simply incorrect.

If the approach to the bridge is tolled, and there is no way to get exit after the toll gantry and before the bridge...then one cannot access the bridge without paying a toll, even if the bridge itself technically isn't tolled.

Is that the situation?

I said that earlier. I was very careful to say that the approach is tolled (unless you’re an HOV) such that there is no legal or practical way to reach it without passing under a gantry. But the bridge itself is not tolled.

If someone thinks VDOT can’t toll the approach to the bridge simply because the bridge itself isn’t in Virginia, then there are a bunch of other tollbooths (or toll gantries) around the country that are improper because they effectively require the payment of a toll to use some portion of pavement that’s in another state.

I'm not disagreeing with you.  But it's an interesting perception issue.

[hbelkins]

The Express Lanes "customer care" representative probably doesn't know beans about the availability of government records, but VDOT certainly will. The trick may be finding out exactly who to contact. KYTC requires the request to be made of the Office of Legal Services in Frankfort. Requests to the district offices, or to other offices within the cabinet (such as Public Affairs, which handles press inquiries) are redirected to Legal Services.

I believe that H.B. is correct.  Try this page for starters, which is the VDOT Freedom of Information Act page.

Freedom of Information Act

Here's the contact person at VDOT for FOIA matters:

Holly D. Jones
VDOT Annex Building
1401 E. Broad St., 11th floor
Richmond, Virginia 23219
804-371-8696

e-mail: Holly.Jones@vdot.virginia.gov

Disclaimer - I do not know Holly Jones and Holly Jones does not know me.

Would someone contact her directly, or thru a main FOIA email address?  I know NJ has a specific form/email group that must be used...emails to a person's state account doesn't count.

It varies by state. KYTC accepts emails to the Open Records coordinator. I'm sure that if Virginia requires a different approach, that could be verified by emailing Ms. Jones.

[Beltway]

I said that earlier. I was very careful to say that the approach is tolled (unless you're an HOV) such that there is no legal or practical way to reach it without passing under a gantry. But the bridge itself is not tolled.

If the bridge was tolled then there would be a higher toll.

D.C. was the one who specified that Ramp G be closed if they were to agree to the I-395 HOT project, so as to prevent I-395 NB traffic from increasing into D.C.; more traffic will be using I-395 NB Express, but that would be counterbalanced by GP traffic no longer entering on Ramp G. 

All of the peak hour capacity of I-395 in D.C. is already spoken for and they didn't widen I-395 in D.C.

[vdeane]

If someone thinks VDOT can't toll the approach to the bridge simply because the bridge itself isn't in Virginia, then there are a bunch of other tollbooths (or toll gantries) around the country that are improper because they effectively require the payment of a toll to use some portion of pavement that's in another state.

I would say that if there is no way to use the bridge without paying a toll, then it is effectively a toll bridge.  When I think of toll roads, I think in terms of entry/exit, not the specific position of booths/gantries.  And yes, I'd agree that those other examples of state line tolls are improper.  Just look at the NH Turnpike or the NY Thruway: there are exits just past the state line before tolling begins, precisely to avoid that situation (granted, exit 15 used to be tolled, though that was technically an exit toll inside the ticket system, not a mainline one, and that was before that portion of I-287 was built in NJ, so it was just ramps to NJ 17).  All the current tolls on NY's borders are bridge/tunnel tolls.

[Beltway]

I believe that H.B. is correct.  Try this page for starters, which is the VDOT Freedom of Information Act page.
Freedom of Information Act
Here's the contact person at VDOT for FOIA matters:

Holly D. Jones
VDOT Annex Building
1401 E. Broad St., 11th floor
Richmond, Virginia 23219
804-371-8696
e-mail: Holly.Jones@vdot.virginia.gov

Disclaimer - I do not know Holly Jones and Holly Jones does not know me.

Would someone contact her directly, or thru a main FOIA email address?  I know NJ has a specific form/email group that must be used...emails to a person's state account doesn't count.

It varies by state. KYTC accepts emails to the Open Records coordinator. I'm sure that if Virginia requires a different approach, that could be verified by emailing Ms. Jones.

Need to be persistent when dealing with government agencies.

The case whether federal, state, local, or trans-local (someone like WMATA for example).

If I don't get a timely answer, I keep pushing until I get an answer; not too quick but one call or e-mail per week is about right.  Sometimes it takes awhile but I nearly always get what I am looking for.

[1995hoo]

^^^^^

There is a parallel bridge on I-395 with more lanes that has no toll (it backs up bigtime, though). Nobody who doesn't want to pay a toll needs to pay any toll at the 14th Street Bridge.

Great info from Beltway. I wish the part about DC insisting on regulating the Ramp G traffic were better-publicized.

[sprjus4]

There is a parallel bridge on I-395 with more lanes that has no toll (it backs up bigtime, though). Nobody who doesn't want to pay a toll needs to pay any toll at the 14th Street Bridge.

Wouldn't the traffic backups on there just get worse now that a significant amount of the traffic now opts to use it as opposed to the HOV bridge because of the toll?

The congestion is largely non-existent anymore on the HOV bridge, but that traffic has to go somewhere - to the GP bridge.

When both bridges were congested prior to HO/T, it at least allowed all lanes to be fully utilized. Now, you're squeezing all that traffic onto the GP bridge, choking it more to allow the HOV and toll-payers to drive one more mile congestion-free just to hit congestion once entering DC no matter what.

It's better for both bridges to move 30 - 40 mph rather than the HO/T bridge move 55 mph and the GP bridge move 10 - 15 mph, especially considering there's traffic on the other side for both carriageways no matter what.



If Transurban wants to really get traffic moving, why not build elevated HO/T lanes in DC with direct connectors to a few of the local roads, US-1, and I-695 along with a new HO/T bridge over the Potomac River, then tie into the I-395 HO/T lanes? Then leave the other 4 bridges toll-free to GP traffic.