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Started by mightyace, February 16, 2009, 05:29:14 PM

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jeffandnicole

Quote from: briantroutman on December 17, 2013, 01:32:28 PM
Quote from: Compulov on December 17, 2013, 12:47:26 PM
Stupid question... isn't the equipment needed installed in all lanes on the PATP? If so, do they actively disable it in cash-only lanes when they're staffed? If not, is there any reason you *can't* just go through any cash lane with E-Z Pass?

It appears the answer is, surprisingly, yes—they do disable the E-ZPass equipment in cash only lanes. According to the PTC (http://www.paturnpike.com/ezpass/personalfaq.htm#entered), if you enter through an E-ZPass lane] and attempt to exit through a cash only lane, the human toll taker at the exit point will charge you the "lost ticket" rate (maximum possible toll), but you can request a form to get the overpayment refunded.

To intentionally disable the equipment that's ALREADY THERE and thereby incur $25 in administrative costs to refund a $10 toll seems incredibly stupid to me. I can understand them wanting to discourage mixed cash/E-ZPass traffic through a lane because of the potential for speed differential, unexpected stops, and collisions, but disabling the equipment is ridiculous.

The NJ Turnpike had the equipment installed for years before allowing the mixed-mode option.  In addition, the lanes on the DRPA bridges are either cash or EZ Pass only.  Some of the cash lanes do have the equipment installed, and they would be used for EZ Pass when usage warranted (such as during rush hour, when the majority of traffic used EZ Pass). 

On the PA Turnpike, it could be a union agreement that prevents mixed-mode lanes. Just a guess on my part though.


Alps

Quote from: briantroutman on December 17, 2013, 01:32:28 PM
Quote from: Compulov on December 17, 2013, 12:47:26 PM
Stupid question... isn't the equipment needed installed in all lanes on the PATP? If so, do they actively disable it in cash-only lanes when they're staffed? If not, is there any reason you *can't* just go through any cash lane with E-Z Pass?

It appears the answer is, surprisingly, yes–they do disable the E-ZPass equipment in cash only lanes. According to the PTC (http://www.paturnpike.com/ezpass/personalfaq.htm#entered), if you enter through an E-ZPass lane] and attempt to exit through a cash only lane, the human toll taker at the exit point will charge you the "lost ticket" rate (maximum possible toll), but you can request a form to get the overpayment refunded.

To intentionally disable the equipment that's ALREADY THERE and thereby incur $25 in administrative costs to refund a $10 toll seems incredibly stupid to me. I can understand them wanting to discourage mixed cash/E-ZPass traffic through a lane because of the potential for speed differential, unexpected stops, and collisions, but disabling the equipment is ridiculous.
They're not the only agency, either. I forget who, but either the MTA or Port Authority also won't do mixed mode. (We were discussing both in the context of a particular bridge project.) It definitely crimps travel flexibility - and roadway design flexibility through the plaza, especially when you have nearby entrances/exits with traffic splits through the plaza.

MASTERNC

Well, as another user on this board hinted when one of his friends said construction oversight was being procured for the Southern Beltway, the PTC just announced awarding of contracts for construction management and construction of bridges over US 22.

No timeline on the press release but I read somewhere else the date would be 2019.

http://www.paturnpike.com/press/2014/20140113154415.htm

Also, the construction website for the Swatara Creek bridge replacement is now up.

http://www.paturnpike.com/constructionprojects/swataracreekbridge/default.aspx


ARMOURERERIC

Once the Swatara Creek bridge is complete it will have it's 3rd lane striped out until such time as the connecting mailine is widened, but seeing that the PA pike is already 6 lanes to Harrisburg East, I can'r picture it being too long until that gap from 283 to Swatara is under way.

jeffandnicole

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/20140124__155M_approved_to_link_I-95_and_Pa__Turnpike.html

$155 million approved to do work involving linking (but not actually linking) the PA Turnpike to I-95.

Compulov

Quote from: Steve on December 17, 2013, 07:18:39 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on December 17, 2013, 01:32:28 PM
It appears the answer is, surprisingly, yes–they do disable the E-ZPass equipment in cash only lanes. According to the PTC (http://www.paturnpike.com/ezpass/personalfaq.htm#entered), if you enter through an E-ZPass lane] and attempt to exit through a cash only lane, the human toll taker at the exit point will charge you the "lost ticket" rate (maximum possible toll), but you can request a form to get the overpayment refunded.

To intentionally disable the equipment that's ALREADY THERE and thereby incur $25 in administrative costs to refund a $10 toll seems incredibly stupid to me. I can understand them wanting to discourage mixed cash/E-ZPass traffic through a lane because of the potential for speed differential, unexpected stops, and collisions, but disabling the equipment is ridiculous.
They're not the only agency, either. I forget who, but either the MTA or Port Authority also won't do mixed mode. (We were discussing both in the context of a particular bridge project.) It definitely crimps travel flexibility - and roadway design flexibility through the plaza, especially when you have nearby entrances/exits with traffic splits through the plaza.

About the only possible argument I could see (other than the possibility of union contracts prohibiting it) is maybe a safety argument? I'd imagine you don't want to encourage EZPass users to use non-EZPass lanes since they're more likely to blow through without due care (and aren't the EZPass lanes typically moved to the edges so as to minimize the interaction between toll collectors walking through the lanes and drivers who aren't stopping to pay a toll?) Even so, I don't see why you don't at least have the damn things turned on, so if you get some random lost person driving through, they're not penalized because of it.

vdeane

Well, it's impossible to avoid it completely on older barriers.  Newer Thruway barriers have some pretty creative solutions though (such as putting the E-ZPass lanes in the center and having a pedestrian crosswalk).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

NE2

Quote from: vdeane on January 27, 2014, 09:18:58 PM
Newer Thruway barriers have some pretty creative solutions though (such as putting the E-ZPass lanes in the center and having a pedestrian crosswalk).
Newer Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority plazas have an enclosed pedestrian overpass: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.644084,-81.507182&spn=0.015272,0.028346&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=28.644184,-81.507416&panoid=O5iMhA5UgL-8uwzFnkXIHw&cbp=12,41.48,,0,-3.73
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

lepidopteran

Some toll plazas have an underground passageway, with an access stairway at every single booth!

The (relatively) new toll plaza with the "lighthouse" at the southern end of the NJ Turnpike has a conspicuous overhead walkway.  I think they still have to cross at least some (ticketed) lanes to get to their booth, though.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: lepidopteran on January 28, 2014, 06:45:43 PM
Some toll plazas have an underground passageway, with an access stairway at every single booth!

The (relatively) new toll plaza with the "lighthouse" at the southern end of the NJ Turnpike has a conspicuous overhead walkway.  I think they still have to cross at least some (ticketed) lanes to get to their booth, though.

Yep - there's a few elevators/stairways to get to/from the toll booths, but one may have to cross up to 4 lanes to get to the nearest access. While they don't cross the express EZ Pass lanes, they may have to cross the regular lanes, which may be cash/EZ Pass, EZ Pass, or closed.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: lepidopteran on January 28, 2014, 06:45:43 PM
Some toll plazas have an underground passageway, with an access stairway at every single booth!

The (relatively) new toll plaza with the "lighthouse" at the southern end of the NJ Turnpike has a conspicuous overhead walkway.  I think they still have to cross at least some (ticketed) lanes to get to their booth, though.

I have been in the tunnels under the toll barriers on the Dulles Toll Road (Va. 267), Dulles Greenway (also 267) and Maryland's Fort McHenry Tunnel (I-95).  Either a stairway for each lane, or every other lane. 
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

briantroutman

But I suppose none of this will matter in a few years if the PA Turnpike does go all electronic by 2018 as planned.

According to their AET site (http://www.paturnpike.com/aet_public/aet.asp), the NY Thruway and Mass Pike are scheduled to go all-electronic in 2016 and the AC Expressway by 2015. No mention of the NJTP or GSP, though.

vdeane

I know of no plans to convert the entire Thruway to AET and couldn't find anything when I searched.  I suspect the page is referring to the pilot program to convert the Harriman, Tappan Zee, and Yonkers barriers.  If it's successful I wouldn't be surprised to see the other barrier tolls converted, but the ticket system would obviously have to be done all at once.  I wonder if this is why the Williamsville barrier replacement/upgrade project has been on hold for over a decade.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Alps

Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2014, 11:10:42 PM
I know of no plans to convert the entire Thruway to AET and couldn't find anything when I searched.  I suspect the page is referring to the pilot program to convert the Harriman, Tappan Zee, and Yonkers barriers.  If it's successful I wouldn't be surprised to see the other barrier tolls converted, but the ticket system would obviously have to be done all at once.
Everything I have quoted is correct. I have no clue as to any other part of the system.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2014, 11:10:42 PM
I know of no plans to convert the entire Thruway to AET and couldn't find anything when I searched.  I suspect the page is referring to the pilot program to convert the Harriman, Tappan Zee, and Yonkers barriers.  If it's successful I wouldn't be surprised to see the other barrier tolls converted, but the ticket system would obviously have to be done all at once.  I wonder if this is why the Williamsville barrier replacement/upgrade project has been on hold for over a decade.

Harriman is the southern end of the Thruway "main" ticket (closed) system.  Why would the Thruway Authority want to spend money on that unless they are going to flip the entire system to AET?

Otherwise, I would assume that Harriman, along with the Tappan Zee and Yonkers barriers are the busiest on the entire Thruway system, so it makes plenty of sense to convert those - and at the Tappan Zee, AET would allow a return to two-way tolling if the Authority wanted to go that way

Though would some drivers be attracted to the T-Z to avoid the (high) tolls on the Port Authority crossings if the eastbound Tappan Zee toll was reduced as part of two-way tolling?
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Alps

Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 30, 2014, 05:43:41 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2014, 11:10:42 PM
I know of no plans to convert the entire Thruway to AET and couldn't find anything when I searched.  I suspect the page is referring to the pilot program to convert the Harriman, Tappan Zee, and Yonkers barriers.  If it's successful I wouldn't be surprised to see the other barrier tolls converted, but the ticket system would obviously have to be done all at once.  I wonder if this is why the Williamsville barrier replacement/upgrade project has been on hold for over a decade.

Harriman is the southern end of the Thruway "main" ticket (closed) system.  Why would the Thruway Authority want to spend money on that unless they are going to flip the entire system to AET?

Otherwise, I would assume that Harriman, along with the Tappan Zee and Yonkers barriers are the busiest on the entire Thruway system, so it makes plenty of sense to convert those - and at the Tappan Zee, AET would allow a return to two-way tolling if the Authority wanted to go that way

Though would some drivers be attracted to the T-Z to avoid the (high) tolls on the Port Authority crossings if the eastbound Tappan Zee toll was reduced as part of two-way tolling?
Harriman is different than Woodbury. They're only converting the one on 17.

Mr_Northside

Quote from: NE2 on January 27, 2014, 09:23:55 PM
Newer Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority plazas have an enclosed pedestrian overpass: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=28.644084,-81.507182&spn=0.015272,0.028346&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=28.644184,-81.507416&panoid=O5iMhA5UgL-8uwzFnkXIHw&cbp=12,41.48,,0,-3.73

The PA Turnpike constructed pedestrian overpasses over the express EZ-Pass lanes for 2 of the toll plazas on the Mon-Fayette (PA TPK-43). 
When the PTC had a "community day" before opening the Mon-Fayette section from Rt. 51 to near I-70 I was able to walk thru that one.
I don't have opinions anymore. All I know is that no one is better than anyone else, and everyone is the best at everything

vdeane

Quote from: cpzilliacus on January 30, 2014, 05:43:41 PM
Quote from: vdeane on January 28, 2014, 11:10:42 PM
I know of no plans to convert the entire Thruway to AET and couldn't find anything when I searched.  I suspect the page is referring to the pilot program to convert the Harriman, Tappan Zee, and Yonkers barriers.  If it's successful I wouldn't be surprised to see the other barrier tolls converted, but the ticket system would obviously have to be done all at once.  I wonder if this is why the Williamsville barrier replacement/upgrade project has been on hold for over a decade.

Harriman is the southern end of the Thruway "main" ticket (closed) system.  Why would the Thruway Authority want to spend money on that unless they are going to flip the entire system to AET?

Otherwise, I would assume that Harriman, along with the Tappan Zee and Yonkers barriers are the busiest on the entire Thruway system, so it makes plenty of sense to convert those - and at the Tappan Zee, AET would allow a return to two-way tolling if the Authority wanted to go that way

Though would some drivers be attracted to the T-Z to avoid the (high) tolls on the Port Authority crossings if the eastbound Tappan Zee toll was reduced as part of two-way tolling?
That's Woodbury actually.  Harriman, Woodbury, and exit 16 form a really strange system.  Staying on I-87 is just a conventional get ticket/pay toll interaction with Woodbury.  I-87 south to NY 17 is a similarly conventional system for exit 16 (using a booth divided from the rest of Harriman).  NY 17 to I-87 south is a single barrier interaction with Harriman.

Now it's time to get funky.  Traveling from NY 17 to I-87 north involves the barrier interaction with Harriman as before, but then traffic is immediately funneled into a separated booth in Woodbury to receive a discounted exit 16 ticket.

I just had a thought though.  When Harriman goes AET, there will be no reason to keep it on the exit 16 ramps.  The gantry could easily be set up on the Thruway mainline between exits 15A and 16, eliminating the two-step system presently used to get on I-87 north.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

hbelkins

Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 07:58:23 PM
Now it's time to get funky.  Traveling from NY 17 to I-87 north involves the barrier interaction with Harriman as before, but then traffic is immediately funneled into a separated booth in Woodbury to receive a discounted exit 16 ticket.

I made that movement a few years ago and was confused why I'd have to go through two booths instead of one. I had E-Z pass and I think I may have had a conversation with a booth attendant about the setup.

I'd say that movement (NY 17 southbound to I-87 northbound) is probably the least-used at that exit.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

ARMOURERERIC

Something I wonder about the Swatara Creek project:  I note that an existing bridge over Vine Street in Middletown is to be replaced.  I also note that immediately north of the turnpike overcrossing that Vine Street becomes 4 lanes divided and is an important connector to the 283 freeway from Middletown.  I wonder if the PTC plans to make the new bridge wide enough to accomodate a wider Vine Street.  Even if such widening is not needed for another 10-20 years O think it would be a wise move.

Alps

Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 07:58:23 PM

I just had a thought though.  When Harriman goes AET, there will be no reason to keep it on the exit 16 ramps.  The gantry could easily be set up on the Thruway mainline between exits 15A and 16, eliminating the two-step system presently used to get on I-87 north.
Trust me, this was examined. (It's possible that I was involved...) I think the non-starter is because the mainline isn't AET yet, so they need a condition that works for the NY 17 ramps. Will this be revisited? That hasn't been determined, because no one's drawn up the final condition, to my knowledge.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Alps on January 30, 2014, 06:47:40 PM
Harriman is different than Woodbury. They're only converting the one on 17.

Thanks - I always think about those two being the same (they are not, even though they are nearby), and your point is correct.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 07:58:23 PM
That's Woodbury actually.  Harriman, Woodbury, and exit 16 form a really strange system.  Staying on I-87 is just a conventional get ticket/pay toll interaction with Woodbury.  I-87 south to NY 17 is a similarly conventional system for exit 16 (using a booth divided from the rest of Harriman).  NY 17 to I-87 south is a single barrier interaction with Harriman.

All correct.

Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 07:58:23 PM
Now it's time to get funky.  Traveling from NY 17 to I-87 north involves the barrier interaction with Harriman as before, but then traffic is immediately funneled into a separated booth in Woodbury to receive a discounted exit 16 ticket.

I have done that movement, and they even make E-ZPass patrons come to a stop (!) there.

Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2014, 07:58:23 PM
I just had a thought though.  When Harriman goes AET, there will be no reason to keep it on the exit 16 ramps.  The gantry could easily be set up on the Thruway mainline between exits 15A and 16, eliminating the two-step system presently used to get on I-87 north.

I think that is also correct.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

vdeane

Another one I hadn't thought of is that the AET gantries could be set up on the ramps.  It still seems very unusual to me for a traffic to go through an all-electronic ganty and then pick up a ticket for the NY 17 to I-87 north movement.

Having E-ZPass traffic stop completely is a NYSTA policy for mixed-mode booths, usually affecting small exits that only have one booth for traffic entering the Thruway.  They actually have it set up so that the operation has to manually change the traffic light when an E-ZPass tag is read.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Mr_Northside

Pennsylvania Turnpike to raise tolls in 2015

The headline shouldn't be much of a surprise here. 

Though the article mentions that the conversion to AET will take longer than they thought, and briefly covers other stuff that has probably been brought up in other threads around the forums.
I don't have opinions anymore. All I know is that no one is better than anyone else, and everyone is the best at everything



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