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US 93 In Arizona Progress

Started by swbrotha100, February 27, 2015, 03:55:12 PM

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Max Rockatansky

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on January 16, 2025, 11:35:14 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 15, 2025, 11:51:47 PMI think a lot of you are also assuming that everyone goes to Las Vegas to gamble, drink heavily or partake in both at some point. 

I go to play pinball. :)

The Pinball Hall of Fame is pretty awesome. 


US 89

Quote from: jmacswimmer on January 16, 2025, 01:01:57 PM(We also didn't fly in/out of LAS, but rather PHX since Vegas was one stop as part of a larger trip. Despite LAS being right next to the strip, I've heard that traversing that short distance can be a pain at times.)

Can attest. Honestly getting anywhere around Las Vegas I found to be way more trouble than it was worth, between the large traffic volumes and terrible signal timing. And I was last there mid-afternoon on a weekday.

pderocco

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 16, 2025, 01:41:19 PMIf they complete Interstate 11 to Kingman, and decide to forgo the Interstate 40-to-Wickenburg segment, maybe they should truncate US 93 to its interchange with Interstate 15 in Garnet, NV, and renumber US 93 south of Interstate 40 back to AZ 93.
That sort of makes sense, since there would be a big gap. I could never understand why they turned US-89 and 89A into state routes south of I-40, though.

xonhulu

Quote from: pderocco on January 16, 2025, 06:40:04 PMThat sort of makes sense, since there would be a big gap. I could never understand why they turned US-89 and 89A into state routes south of I-40, though.

I'm with you there. I'm not sure why it was so important to eliminate the I-40/US 89 concurrency between Flagstaff and Ash Fork, while leaving the much longer I-40/US 180 concurrency between Flagstaff and Holbrook.


Max Rockatansky

Quote from: xonhulu on January 16, 2025, 08:24:14 PM
Quote from: pderocco on January 16, 2025, 06:40:04 PMThat sort of makes sense, since there would be a big gap. I could never understand why they turned US-89 and 89A into state routes south of I-40, though.

I'm with you there. I'm not sure why it was so important to eliminate the I-40/US 89 concurrency between Flagstaff and Ash Fork, while leaving the much longer I-40/US 180 concurrency between Flagstaff and Holbrook.



And for some reason both corridors kept the number they had as US Routes. Seems like a lot of hassle just to swap around highway signs when a truncation of mainline US 89 would have been sufficient.

TheStranger

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 16, 2025, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: xonhulu on January 16, 2025, 08:24:14 PM
Quote from: pderocco on January 16, 2025, 06:40:04 PMThat sort of makes sense, since there would be a big gap. I could never understand why they turned US-89 and 89A into state routes south of I-40, though.

I'm with you there. I'm not sure why it was so important to eliminate the I-40/US 89 concurrency between Flagstaff and Ash Fork, while leaving the much longer I-40/US 180 concurrency between Flagstaff and Holbrook.



And for some reason both corridors kept the number they had as US Routes. Seems like a lot of hassle just to swap around highway signs when a truncation of mainline US 89 would have been sufficient.

Unsurprisingly, this is how I feel specifically about US 99 in California...

The US route segment of 89 easily could have continued on all the way to where the state route now ends in Wickenburg, without any real functional change.  I can understand the rest south of there being mostly duplicated by other roads, but it is and was an independent corridor that served communities pretty distant from those on I-17.

This compares rather wildly to how the long US 180/I-40 concurrency is retained just so that US 180 has the short segment from Flagstaff northwest.
Chris Sampang

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: TheStranger on January 16, 2025, 09:24:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 16, 2025, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: xonhulu on January 16, 2025, 08:24:14 PM
Quote from: pderocco on January 16, 2025, 06:40:04 PMThat sort of makes sense, since there would be a big gap. I could never understand why they turned US-89 and 89A into state routes south of I-40, though.

I'm with you there. I'm not sure why it was so important to eliminate the I-40/US 89 concurrency between Flagstaff and Ash Fork, while leaving the much longer I-40/US 180 concurrency between Flagstaff and Holbrook.



And for some reason both corridors kept the number they had as US Routes. Seems like a lot of hassle just to swap around highway signs when a truncation of mainline US 89 would have been sufficient.

Unsurprisingly, this is how I feel specifically about US 99 in California...

The US route segment of 89 easily could have continued on all the way to where the state route now ends in Wickenburg, without any real functional change.  I can understand the rest south of there being mostly duplicated by other roads, but it is and was an independent corridor that served communities pretty distant from those on I-17.

This compares rather wildly to how the long US 180/I-40 concurrency is retained just so that US 180 has the short segment from Flagstaff northwest.

I guess it was done efficiently at least as there is only truncation application for 89 and 89A.

US 89

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 16, 2025, 09:27:45 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on January 16, 2025, 09:24:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 16, 2025, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: xonhulu on January 16, 2025, 08:24:14 PM
Quote from: pderocco on January 16, 2025, 06:40:04 PMThat sort of makes sense, since there would be a big gap. I could never understand why they turned US-89 and 89A into state routes south of I-40, though.

I'm with you there. I'm not sure why it was so important to eliminate the I-40/US 89 concurrency between Flagstaff and Ash Fork, while leaving the much longer I-40/US 180 concurrency between Flagstaff and Holbrook.



And for some reason both corridors kept the number they had as US Routes. Seems like a lot of hassle just to swap around highway signs when a truncation of mainline US 89 would have been sufficient.

Unsurprisingly, this is how I feel specifically about US 99 in California...

The US route segment of 89 easily could have continued on all the way to where the state route now ends in Wickenburg, without any real functional change.  I can understand the rest south of there being mostly duplicated by other roads, but it is and was an independent corridor that served communities pretty distant from those on I-17.

This compares rather wildly to how the long US 180/I-40 concurrency is retained just so that US 180 has the short segment from Flagstaff northwest.

I guess it was done efficiently at least as there is only truncation application for 89 and 89A.

They had to extend US 93 south several miles into Wickenburg when 89 was decommissioned, so it's not like it was super simple.

I wonder if someone somewhere in ADOT wants the Grand Canyon served by a US highway...

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: US 89 on January 16, 2025, 09:47:14 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 16, 2025, 09:27:45 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on January 16, 2025, 09:24:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 16, 2025, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: xonhulu on January 16, 2025, 08:24:14 PM
Quote from: pderocco on January 16, 2025, 06:40:04 PMThat sort of makes sense, since there would be a big gap. I could never understand why they turned US-89 and 89A into state routes south of I-40, though.

I'm with you there. I'm not sure why it was so important to eliminate the I-40/US 89 concurrency between Flagstaff and Ash Fork, while leaving the much longer I-40/US 180 concurrency between Flagstaff and Holbrook.



And for some reason both corridors kept the number they had as US Routes. Seems like a lot of hassle just to swap around highway signs when a truncation of mainline US 89 would have been sufficient.

Unsurprisingly, this is how I feel specifically about US 99 in California...

The US route segment of 89 easily could have continued on all the way to where the state route now ends in Wickenburg, without any real functional change.  I can understand the rest south of there being mostly duplicated by other roads, but it is and was an independent corridor that served communities pretty distant from those on I-17.

This compares rather wildly to how the long US 180/I-40 concurrency is retained just so that US 180 has the short segment from Flagstaff northwest.

I guess it was done efficiently at least as there is only truncation application for 89 and 89A.

They had to extend US 93 south several miles into Wickenburg when 89 was decommissioned, so it's not like it was super simple.

I wonder if someone somewhere in ADOT wants the Grand Canyon served by a US highway...

There was that whole deal with US 180 being billed as a National Parks highway for awhile.  While it actually manages to do that, US 191 pulls it off more naturally.

xonhulu

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 16, 2025, 09:49:24 PMThere was that whole deal with US 180 being billed as a National Parks highway for awhile.  While it actually manages to do that, US 191 pulls it off more naturally.

When I was a kid, the highway I remember seeing having that billing was US 89, since it passed near or through 6 National Parks: Glacier, Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Bryce Canyon, Zion and Grand Canyon.

Scott5114

Quote from: US 89 on January 16, 2025, 03:33:53 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on January 16, 2025, 01:01:57 PM(We also didn't fly in/out of LAS, but rather PHX since Vegas was one stop as part of a larger trip. Despite LAS being right next to the strip, I've heard that traversing that short distance can be a pain at times.)

Can attest. Honestly getting anywhere around Las Vegas I found to be way more trouble than it was worth, between the large traffic volumes and terrible signal timing. And I was last there mid-afternoon on a weekday.

I hear about Vegas having terrible signal timing a lot but, on the whole, I find it a lot better than what I was used to in Oklahoma. (I don't know if that means that the timing is better in the parts of town that I frequent or if Oklahoma signal timing is just that bad.)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Sonic99

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 12, 2025, 06:24:08 PMThere is more than enough vacant space on the NW corner of the existing US-60/AZ-303 interchange to build a new "Y" interchange with flyover ramps. The existing The partial cloverleaf interchange already pushes housing development back significantly from the West side of US-60. There's nothing but empty land on the East side of US-60.

Going NW from the 303 loop there is enough ROW in place to add slip ramps, frontage roads, etc. There are existing access roads alongside US-60 in some spots, with flare-outs to make room for ramps. And there is quite a bit of space between the US-60 main lanes and the rail line running parallel to it. It's possible some properties along the way to AZ-74 might have to be acquired and removed. But that highway upgrade situation is a lot more feasible than many other freeway projects that have been completed.

Just wanted to address this comment. The BIG hurdle ADOT has with anything along US 60/Grand Ave is the BNSF tracks. That's why the current 303/Grand interchange is so borked, because BNSF refuses to even consider any modification to their configuration. ADOT has a, quite frankly, absurd working plan to reconfigure that entire segment and it's all sooooo insanely overengineered and ridiculous, all because they can't move a pebble on the BNSF ROW. That ROW would be a massive hurdle for any expansion of US 60/Grand. It's also why the only access to that massive housing area along 163rd Ave is ONLy accessible via that single crossing at 163rd Ave. None of the other roads can continue through to connect to Grand because BNSF says so. And now BNSF wants to build a massive rail yard out in that area, further blocking any future connectability from the east.
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 17, 2025, 02:10:21 AM
Quote from: US 89 on January 16, 2025, 03:33:53 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on January 16, 2025, 01:01:57 PM(We also didn't fly in/out of LAS, but rather PHX since Vegas was one stop as part of a larger trip. Despite LAS being right next to the strip, I've heard that traversing that short distance can be a pain at times.)

Can attest. Honestly getting anywhere around Las Vegas I found to be way more trouble than it was worth, between the large traffic volumes and terrible signal timing. And I was last there mid-afternoon on a weekday.

I hear about Vegas having terrible signal timing a lot but, on the whole, I find it a lot better than what I was used to in Oklahoma. (I don't know if that means that the timing is better in the parts of town that I frequent or if Oklahoma signal timing is just that bad.)

Nevada and Florida are pretty on par with poor signal timing.  It is really noticeable every time I visit either on vacation.

pderocco

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 16, 2025, 09:49:24 PMThere was that whole deal with US 180 being billed as a National Parks highway for awhile.  While it actually manages to do that, US 191 pulls it off more naturally.
Fat lot of good it did. I don't think there's any US-180 signage north of Grand Canyon Junction.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: pderocco on January 17, 2025, 02:44:19 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 16, 2025, 09:49:24 PMThere was that whole deal with US 180 being billed as a National Parks highway for awhile.  While it actually manages to do that, US 191 pulls it off more naturally.
Fat lot of good it did. I don't think there's any US-180 signage north of Grand Canyon Junction.

There is:

https://flic.kr/p/RSUYW3

https://flic.kr/p/2oFozrc

https://flic.kr/p/2oFphXm

pderocco

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 02:46:33 PMThere is:

https://flic.kr/p/RSUYW3

https://flic.kr/p/2oFozrc

https://flic.kr/p/2oFphXm

The third is right in Grand Canyon Junction, and the other two are from the same spot southbound just leaving the park. I didn't see that one because I haven't driven that southbound since 1991.

The new Tusayan roundabouts only sign AZ-64.

I'm haunted by the feeling that many DOTs don't really like route numbers, or even names, and would rather just put destinations on signs.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: pderocco on January 17, 2025, 03:54:53 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 02:46:33 PMThere is:

https://flic.kr/p/RSUYW3

https://flic.kr/p/2oFozrc

https://flic.kr/p/2oFphXm

The third is right in Grand Canyon Junction, and the other two are from the same spot southbound just leaving the park. I didn't see that one because I haven't driven that southbound since 1991.

The new Tusayan roundabouts only sign AZ-64.

I'm haunted by the feeling that many DOTs don't really like route numbers, or even names, and would rather just put destinations on signs.


There was at least one north of the junction. Unfortunately the morning sun-glare in 2023 made it impossible to get a viable photo.

The minutes in AASHTO's database are pretty interesting on this topic.  Maybe it is high time I do a blog on it?

TheStranger

A related aside, without steering into fictional territory at all:

It's interesting that pre-1992, the L-shaped segment of AZ 64 that reaches Grand Canyon...actually had both ends at US 89 (the south end of course now no longer does, due to the conversion of the middle section of US 89 in Arizona to a state route). 
Chris Sampang

pderocco

Quote from: TheStranger on January 17, 2025, 04:05:27 PMA related aside, without steering into fictional territory at all:

It's interesting that pre-1992, the L-shaped segment of AZ 64 that reaches Grand Canyon...actually had both ends at US 89 (the south end of course now no longer does, due to the conversion of the middle section of US 89 in Arizona to a state route). 
Hey, they could have called it AZ-89A, and had it do a reverse multiplex with AZ-89 along I-40.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: TheStranger on January 17, 2025, 04:05:27 PMA related aside, without steering into fictional territory at all:

It's interesting that pre-1992, the L-shaped segment of AZ 64 that reaches Grand Canyon...actually had both ends at US 89 (the south end of course now no longer does, due to the conversion of the middle section of US 89 in Arizona to a state route). 

And most of AZ 64 east of US 89 was eventually consumed by US 160.  That's why AZ 264, 364, 464 and 564 are (or were) signed what they are. 

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 10:14:20 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 17, 2025, 02:10:21 AM
Quote from: US 89 on January 16, 2025, 03:33:53 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on January 16, 2025, 01:01:57 PM(We also didn't fly in/out of LAS, but rather PHX since Vegas was one stop as part of a larger trip. Despite LAS being right next to the strip, I've heard that traversing that short distance can be a pain at times.)

Can attest. Honestly getting anywhere around Las Vegas I found to be way more trouble than it was worth, between the large traffic volumes and terrible signal timing. And I was last there mid-afternoon on a weekday.

I hear about Vegas having terrible signal timing a lot but, on the whole, I find it a lot better than what I was used to in Oklahoma. (I don't know if that means that the timing is better in the parts of town that I frequent or if Oklahoma signal timing is just that bad.)

Nevada and Florida are pretty on par with poor signal timing.  It is really noticeable every time I visit either on vacation.
You clearly don't visit Oklahoma that often. Every now and then you'll have a day where you will hit every single light green. That is the day you buy a lottery ticket. Because if there's one thing you can count on in Oklahoma, it's people going 10 under the speed limit and hitting every red light. And don't even get me started about curb cuts every 50 feet. Oklahoma has to have some of the worst transportation planning I've ever seen.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with Edmond, Oklahoma or not, but that's the suburb I grew up in. They just undertook a project and spent tens of millions of dollars to install some fiber optic network connecting all these traffic lights together to synchronize them so if you're going the speed limit, you'll hit maybe one or two of them red but most of them you should hit green. This is purely anecdotal, but it seems like traffic has gotten even worse since then.

And yeah, I do hit a lot of red lights in Vegas, but overall Traffic moves pretty well in the Las Vegas Metro. So I don't notice it as much.

Bobby5280

#346
Here in Lawton I joke that we have the Obstructionist League of Drivers, or the O.L.D. They know all the tricks to screw up anyone's commute or errand across town.

They'll drive 10-20mph under the posted speed limit. If you're driving on a main arterial an OLD member will whip out in front of you from a side street and drive real slow. OLD members love to keep reading their phones when the traffic light turns green. They like coming to a complete stop at the end of a freeway on-ramp. If they don't completely stop at the end of the on-ramp they'll merge onto the Interstate going 40mph, at best. If they're on I-44 they'll drive slow in the left lane. Blinkers will be turned on for miles. Other turns and lane changes won't be signaled.

Edit: I'd make jokes that members of OLD would have pre-dawn meetings at Leo and Ken's Truck Stop -a local restaurant very popular with older folks. That place got shut down a couple years ago (due to a dispute between the business owners IIRC). The property is up for sale now. I think OLD members do their pre-dawn meetings at Golden Corral now.

Scott5114

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 17, 2025, 10:14:20 AMNevada and Florida are pretty on par with poor signal timing.  It is really noticeable every time I visit either on vacation.

Of course, in Las Vegas, the locals handle it by just...not stopping for red lights. (Bonus points for doing it with no license plate.)
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

vdeane

I feel like these side discussions (signal timing of Vegas, Florida, and Oklahoma and US route alignment history of Arizona) could be their own threads.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

michiganguy123




Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.