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How do you define Upstate NY?

Started by empirestate, June 10, 2016, 11:44:08 PM

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The Nature Boy

Quote from: ParrDa on September 06, 2017, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 06, 2017, 01:25:23 PM
I wouldn't call the Capital District downstate, but it is definitely more different from Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse than those cities are from each other.

Right. That's what I was getting at, with the caveat that the Capital District is different because it has more of an east coast vibe (of which NYC is the ultimate source). So that presents a challenge when trying to group Albany and Buffalo together at the specific exclusion of NYC.

But Albany and Buffalo are different because of the tendency of New York cities to just adopt the traits of the neighboring state not because of any downstate/upstate distinction. If you go north of Albany on the Northway, you're basically in West Vermont.

Albany is more of an east coast city because three hours away from both New York City AND Boston.


empirestate

Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 06, 2017, 10:29:50 PM
Quote from: ParrDa on September 06, 2017, 08:02:14 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 06, 2017, 01:25:23 PM
I wouldn't call the Capital District downstate, but it is definitely more different from Rochester/Buffalo/Syracuse than those cities are from each other.

Right. That's what I was getting at, with the caveat that the Capital District is different because it has more of an east coast vibe (of which NYC is the ultimate source). So that presents a challenge when trying to group Albany and Buffalo together at the specific exclusion of NYC.

But Albany and Buffalo are different because of the tendency of New York cities to just adopt the traits of the neighboring state not because of any downstate/upstate distinction. If you go north of Albany on the Northway, you're basically in West Vermont.

Albany is more of an east coast city because three hours away from both New York City AND Boston.

Well, and also because it was settled during the colonial period, like other coastal cities. Buffalo, Rochester and others were founded after independence during the initial stages of westward expansion. You can still see that difference in the fabric of the city today.

02 Park Ave

The Northway is a section of the direct route connecting two major North American cities, viz. New York and Montreal, so one would expect a more cosmopolitan environment in its vicinity.
C-o-H

kalvado

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on September 07, 2017, 11:21:33 AM
The Northway is a section of the direct route connecting two major North American cities, viz. New York and Montreal, so one would expect a more cosmopolitan environment in its vicinity.
Northway is pretty empty up there in Adirondack. Traffic viewer shows numbers of 6000 or so - compared to 100k+ across Mohawk. Significant part of it is local traffic, logging truck etc. NYC-Montreal is quite a drive, I doubt that it affects anything.

Northway is a road of heavy commute, with 100k+ daily traffic across Mohawk. It is almost the only road connecting northern suburbs to core cities (all other bridges combined probably have less capacity that single highway), and it is understood that people NEED to travel. 80-85 MPH on 55-65 MPH limit is normal even when police sitting there. And usual "it is only a few seconds difference!" does not apply when we're talking about 15-20-30 miles one way commute.  Unfortunately local transportation commetee is old city-heavy, so they officially said there is no need for another bridge - but local bus authority, which moves single digit %% of commuters desperately needs more of those tens millions. I don't know what would happen if I-87 bridges get serious problem.

So - coming back to original question - it may be fair to draw upstate-downstate line along the city of Albany  border. town of Colonie, which is a nearest suburb, is already different from old city.... 

roadman65

Every state has its own character wherever you go.  Florida is no different than NY.  Go down to Miami and South Florida and its no longer the classic south, but more implants from Cuba and from the northern US.  While many of Central Florida is transplants from NY, NJ, and MI with Latinos from South America.  Ocala and rural north Florida have still natives with Southern accents and even Jacksonville, though people moving from the Northeast, still has the South Flavor,  Then go to the Panhandle and you would not even think you live in Florida as it differs completely from the Peninsula.  There its just like being in Alabama and the customs seem to be more like the state to their north.

I do not think you will have a correct answer for all of this by geography and culture is a different view of a regional name.  The term is always where you are in the state IMO.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

froggie

Quote from: CapeCodder on August 05, 2017, 09:18:12 AM
I always thought that the Taconics were the gateway to the Berkshires. Past the TSP and it seems like you're in MA.

By this logic, they're also the gateway to the Greens, since the Taconics reach as far north as Rutland.


Regarding the OP (and empirestate may be interested), one of our met students lives on the Dutchess/Columbia County line and identifies as Upstate.

JJBers

Quote from: froggie on September 12, 2017, 10:15:25 AM
Quote from: CapeCodder on August 05, 2017, 09:18:12 AM
I always thought that the Taconics were the gateway to the Berkshires. Past the TSP and it seems like you're in MA.

By this logic, they're also the gateway to the Greens, since the Taconics reach as far north as Rutland.


Regarding the OP (and empirestate may be interested), one of our met students lives on the Dutchess/Columbia County line and identifies as Upstate.
No, Rutland is in Taconics.
*for Connecticut
Clinched Stats,
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(2di:I-24, I-76, I-80, I-84, I-95 [ME-GA], I-91)

Sam

Even NYSDEC has an opinion: "During the spring, [turkey] season is open in all of upstate New York (north of the Bronx)..."

empirestate

Quote from: Sam on October 01, 2017, 09:14:20 AM
Even NYSDEC has an opinion: "During the spring, [turkey] season is open in all of upstate New York (north of the Bronx)..."

Hmm, but is turkey season open because it's Upstate? Or is it Upstate because turkey season is open? :hmm:

Sam

Quote from: empirestate on October 01, 2017, 09:18:48 AM
Quote from: Sam on October 01, 2017, 09:14:20 AM
Even NYSDEC has an opinion: "During the spring, [turkey] season is open in all of upstate New York (north of the Bronx)..."

Hmm, but is turkey season open because it's Upstate? Or is it Upstate because turkey season is open? :hmm:

Maybe it's only open in that part of upstate that's north of the Bronx. That would simplify things.

02 Park Ave

The NYNJPA intends to rename Stewart International Airport in Orange County as "New York International Airport at Stewart".  It looks like Downstate is encroaching on Upstate.
C-o-H

Hurricane Rex

Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.
ODOT, raise the speed limit and fix our traffic problems.

Road and weather geek for life.

Running till I die.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.

And how do you define the NYC metro area?
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Hurricane Rex

Quote from: 1 on February 19, 2018, 09:43:28 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.

And how do you define the NYC metro area?
Anything south of I-84 (playing it large for development purposes, may be overkill)
And of course I still have spelling issues.

ODOT, raise the speed limit and fix our traffic problems.

Road and weather geek for life.

Running till I die.

empirestate

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.

I'm thinking you haven't really been following along with this thread... ;-)

Hurricane Rex

Quote from: empirestate on February 19, 2018, 11:03:47 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.

I'm thinking you haven't really been following along with this thread... ;-)
No I haven't I just thought I'd put my quick thoughts though.

LG-TP260

ODOT, raise the speed limit and fix our traffic problems.

Road and weather geek for life.

Running till I die.

empirestate

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 11:12:30 PM
Quote from: empirestate on February 19, 2018, 11:03:47 PM
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 19, 2018, 09:31:43 PM
Anywhere that isn't within the NYC metro area.

I'm thinking you haven't really been following along with this thread... ;-)
No I haven't I just thought I'd put my quick thoughts though.

LG-TP260



Ah, OK. I'm just chuckling, because the whole point of the thread is to come up with tangible, real-life aspects that differentiate Upstate from downstate, as contrasted with just "quick thoughts". :-)

02 Park Ave

It has now been reported in the Times Record Herald that the airport's name will be changed to New York Stewart International Airport.  The family won out!
C-o-H

empirestate


webny99


hotdogPi

#245
So, from "most of New York is upstate" to "most of New York is downstate", we have:

1. Anything that's not Manhattan
2. Upstate and Downstate have equal population, using the shortest line (land only) possible that satisfies this condition
3. Anything that's not New York City or Long Island
4. 41st parallel is the boundary
5. I-287 is the boundary
6. Area code 914 is downstate; area code 845 is upstate
7. Congressional districts 1-17 are downstate; 18-27 are upstate
8. Rockland and Westchester counties are downstate; anything north of that is upstate
9. ZIP codes 10001-11999 are downstate; 12000-14999 are upstate
10. I-84 is the boundary
11. Congressional districts 1-18 are downstate; 19-27 are upstate
12. Orange and Putnam counties are downstate; anything north of that is upstate
13. Anything that Metro-North touches is downstate
14. Sullivan, Ulster, and Dutchess counties are downstate; anything north of that is upstate
15. Area code 845 is downstate; anything north is upstate
16. 42nd parallel (CT/MA and NY/PA border)
17. Congressional districts 1-20 are downstate; 21-27 are upstate (this definition puts Albany downstate)

[Anything outside the state of New York is ignored, even if would fit into an above category.]
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

CNGL-Leudimin

Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
[Anything outside the state of New York is ignored, even if would fit into an above category.]

This. Otherwise I'd claim per criteria #16 that I'm "upstate" and Zaragoza, Spain is "downstate" :sombrero:. #4 would put both of us "upstate".

Also, per criteria #10 most of Idaho would be "upstate", and the area South of US 30/former US 30S would be "downstate".
Supporter of the construction of several running gags, including I-366 with a speed limit of 85 mph (137 km/h) and the Hypotenuse.

Please note that I may mention "invalid" FM channels, i.e. ending in an even number or down to 87.5. These are valid in Europe.

kalvado

Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on April 12, 2018, 01:02:29 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
[Anything outside the state of New York is ignored, even if would fit into an above category.]

This. Otherwise I'd claim per criteria #16 that I'm "upstate" and Zaragoza, Spain is "downstate" :sombrero:. #4 would put both of us "upstate".

Also, per criteria #10 most of Idaho would be "upstate", and the area South of US 30/former US 30S would be "downstate".
And entire Spain is east of Mississippi river.. Oh well.. 

empirestate

Quote from: webny99 on April 12, 2018, 09:37:49 AM
As I've said before, that first map is the way forward  :-P

As arbitrary as it is, it does work out to be a fairly good approximation of the actual boundary–whatever that may be. For my purposes, though, it doesn't go far enough in particularizing the actual differences from one side of that imaginary line to the other; it's a good description of where the boundary lies, but not a good explanation of why it lies there.

For a similar example, looking toward the west along the actual NY/PA boundary, there is also a notable physiographic shift that happens to coincide with that line. You can describe the location of this shift by saying it falls along the NY/PA line, but the explanation for the shift is that the terrain changes from rounder hills and broader valley influenced primarily by glaciation, to bolder relief and narrower valleys shaped mainly by the erosion of stream waters.

Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2018, 10:13:45 AM
17. Congressional districts 1-20 are downstate; 21-27 are upstate (this definition puts Albany downstate)

I was actually surprised by how many of the maps still continue to claim Albany as downstate (and even a couple people on Facebook who I was discussing this with chose some of those maps). But then I thought again about the idea that Downstate encompasses the limits of Dutch settlement patterns from their colony at New Amsterdam, and remembered that Albany also shares an early Dutch heritage. I wonder if some people are feeling the Downstate vibe from Albany because of similarities it displays from that common heritage (subtle, but they're there)?

Still, New Amsterdam and Beverwijck were very far apart in their time and were outside each other's direct sphere of influence. Since the core meaning of "Upstate" is really "outside the influence of New York City", that excludes Albany by definition, even going back to the earliest days.

Jim

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