4 lane undivided freeways

[1995hoo]

Please consider that the last time we talk about this, it was part of the topic on 2 lane freeways. Can anyone think on a 4 lane undivided freeway?  

I have no doubt most of us can think "on" any road, regardless of its design. I'm usually thinking of something when I'm driving, even if it's just something dumb like when to make a toilet stop, and the category of road has no effect on whether I think while on the road.

[NE2]

Fine, but any fully access-controlled expressway would meet the definition of freeway. I don't know if this was the intent of the legislature, and it really doesn't make a difference in the real world.

Perhaps I should clarify.  Within California you will NOT find any fully access-controlled expressways because they are already classified as freeways.

So what would you call a road that has no access from adjacent properties but several at-grade intersections?

[Brandon]

Fine, but any fully access-controlled expressway would meet the definition of freeway. I don't know if this was the intent of the legislature, and it really doesn't make a difference in the real world.

Perhaps I should clarify.  Within California you will NOT find any fully access-controlled expressways because they are already classified as freeways.

So what would you call a road that has no access from adjacent properties but several at-grade intersections?

A Wisconsin-style expressway.

[myosh_tino]

Fine, but any fully access-controlled expressway would meet the definition of freeway. I don't know if this was the intent of the legislature, and it really doesn't make a difference in the real world.

Perhaps I should clarify.  Within California you will NOT find any fully access-controlled expressways because they are already classified as freeways.

So what would you call a road that has no access from adjacent properties but several at-grade intersections?

A highway.  At-grade intersections means the roadway is not access-controlled.

[NE2]

"Freeway" is a highway in respect to which the owners of abutting lands have no right or easement of access to or from their abutting lands or in respect to which such owners have only limited or restricted right or easement of access.

So what would you call a road that has no access from adjacent properties but several at-grade intersections?

A highway.  At-grade intersections means the roadway is not access-controlled.

Did you read the definition you pasted? It talks about access from private property, not intersecting public roads.

[myosh_tino]

"Freeway" is a highway in respect to which the owners of abutting lands have no right or easement of access to or from their abutting lands or in respect to which such owners have only limited or restricted right or easement of access.

So what would you call a road that has no access from adjacent properties but several at-grade intersections?

A highway.  At-grade intersections means the roadway is not access-controlled.

Did you read the definition you pasted? It talks about access from private property, not intersecting public roads.

From Daniel Faigin's cahighways.org website this is an except from the California State Highway Code...

"Freeway"
A highway in respect to which the owners of abutting lands have no right or easement of access to or from their abutting lands or in respect to which such owners have only limited or restricted right or easement of access. If, in the judgment of the commission or the director, the public interest would be advanced thereby, a freeway, as defined herein, may be denominated a "controlled access highway". In all other respects, the "controlled access highway" shall be subject to all provisions of this code pertaining to freeways. [SHC Sect. 23.5]

For a better explanation of the different road types in California, I'd suggest visiting... http://www.cahighways.org/stypes.html

[NE2]

[Quillz]

there are some segments of US-101 in very far northern CA which are like this. 

I-5 along the Rogue River in Oregon was like this until recently.

Do you know how recently this change was made? I've been in that area for the past five or six years now and never noticed this.

[J N Winkler]

For a better explanation of the different road types in California, I'd suggest visiting... http://www.cahighways.org/stypes.html

NE2's point is that the legal definition of a freeway in the Streets & Highways Code does not correspond perfectly to the definition of a freeway as physical object, because the legal definition lacks the element of comprehensive grade separation.  Under California law a road becomes a "lawyers' freeway" (as opposed to an actual freeway) as soon as the California Transportation Commission votes to withdraw access to frontagers.  Building the actual freeway in a corridor declared a freeway is always a later development; Caltrans has to go to the localities through which the freeway passes and get them to conclude freeway agreements which specify access points and maintenance arrangements, and then plans, specifications and estimates have to be developed, a construction contract has to be awarded, etc.

[ethanman62187]

To what I meant is, no at grade intersections.

[froggie]

Reading through the past several posts, it seems to me that California does not codify/define an at-grade expressway...what other states term "limited-access" prohibits private access, but allows for at-grade intersections at public crossroads.

[NE2]

what other states term "limited-access" prohibits private access, but allows for at-grade intersections at public crossroads.

Making it more confusing, this is also called "limited/partial control of access". Hence it makes the most sense to spell out "full control of access"/"fully access-controlled" when talking about a freeway. Or just say freeway. No true roadgeek disagrees about what a freeway is.

[hbelkins]

Reading through the past several posts, it seems to me that California does not codify/define an at-grade expressway...what other states term "limited-access" prohibits private access, but allows for at-grade intersections at public crossroads.

Are we talking legal definitions, "operational definitions" (God help me for dropping a Calrog reference here) or some other definitions?

In Kentucky, the term "limited access" in general use means, for all intents and purposes, an interstate or parkway.

On West Virginia's state maps, the terms used are "access fully controlled" for interstates and "access partially controlled" for roads like the ARC corridors. The latter, of course, have a few grade-separated interchanges but have mostly at-grade intersections.

[1995hoo]

what other states term "limited-access" prohibits private access, but allows for at-grade intersections at public crossroads.

Making it more confusing, this is also called "limited/partial control of access". Hence it makes the most sense to spell out "full control of access"/"fully access-controlled" when talking about a freeway. Or just say freeway. No true roadgeek disagrees about what a freeway is.

Unless he's from Far Rockaway and drove on Rockaway Freeway in the old days when it was full-on dangerous.

[NE2]

what other states term "limited-access" prohibits private access, but allows for at-grade intersections at public crossroads.

Making it more confusing, this is also called "limited/partial control of access". Hence it makes the most sense to spell out "full control of access"/"fully access-controlled" when talking about a freeway. Or just say freeway. No true roadgeek disagrees about what a freeway is.

Unless he's from Far Rockaway and drove on Rockaway Freeway in the old days when it was full-on dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[flowmotion]

US 101 on the Golden Gate Bridge and the Doyle Drive approach road might qualify, though they use small plastic cones as a divider.

The only California "lawyers' freeway" I can think of is segments of US 395. There are clear "Begin Freeway" signs up, and then you'll see a few lightly used driveways. (Not unlike what you'd see on a few 'real interstates'.) Otherwise the distinction is almost trivial. Perhaps it was used during the freeway boom of the 50s/60s, but there doesn't seem to be many fake freeways in CA today.

[agentsteel53]

there are lots of roads which would never be mistaken for a freeway which are signed as "lawyer's freeways", with the white 24x18 inch signs along the edge of the right of way saying "FREEWAY", with access rights restricted, and an office to call if you want to build alongside this road.

not that some of those signs are accurate anymore...

one example is old US-99W, parallel to I-5 but a mile or two off, which is signed as a FREEWAY despite being a) a two-laner, and b) not even under Caltrans jurisdiction anymore.

[TheStranger]

US 101 on the Golden Gate Bridge and the Doyle Drive approach road might qualify, though they use small plastic cones as a divider.

Once Doyle Drive is upgraded to the modern Presidio Parkway, will this still be the case?  (I know there had been talk about using one of those machine-operated movable dividers on the Golden Gate Bridge in past years, but I doubt that's happening any time soon.)

[Bickendan]

there are some segments of US-101 in very far northern CA which are like this. 

I-5 along the Rogue River in Oregon was like this until recently.

Do you know how recently this change was made? I've been in that area for the past five or six years now and never noticed this.

Certainly has been fully divided since before 1989, when I moved up from California to Medford...

I remember some sections of I-5 in the California Siskiyous that were moreless undivided (separation was provided by elevation; median such as it was was an asphalt berm)

[Jordanah1]

Can anyone think on a 4 lane undivided freeway? 

By definition, a freeway is a divided highway...

Well, some freeways are not like that. Because of the cost, it has to be undivided as be first stage, than the next will be a full divided freeway.

The definition of "freeway" is "a divided highway with full control of access". 'Divided' in this sense can be something like a wide median or a simple Jersey barrier. 'Full control of access' means a controlled-access highway where crossroads are separated by bridges and entrance/exit from the highway is via ramps at interchanges.

If you're talking about situations such as the picture previously posted by kurumi, that is not technically a freeway--although it is easy to see how it could be described as such. It can be more adequately described as a "Super-4 expressway".

it is divided by the double yellow line, and we will leave it at that. its a road geek site!!!!

[WillWeaverRVA]

it is divided by the double yellow line, and we will leave it at that. its a road geek site!!!!

Er, generally that's not enough to consider a highway "divided", and this being a roadgeek site doesn't make that so (though there are times I wish roadgeeks ruled the world for other reasons). There has to be some sort of physical barrier between carriageways for a highway to be divided.

[Bickendan]

In order for a highway to be divided, there has to be either be two physical carriageways (grassy median) or crossover collisions are not possible (physical barrier).

[Jordanah1]

i no, and i agree that it shouldnt be considered a freeway, but being a roadgeek site, i think we are all entitled to our opinions, and diferent states have different laws regarding such things. maybe it should be considered a subclass of freeway, a super-4, like a super-2....sigh why cant powerful people just sit down and make a standard for these things? i mean, if they can sit down and decide that 'ain't' ain't a word, and make up a new rule on the sport for why it cant, then why dont they do something that matters like define road terms. i ain't about to stop saying ain't, and most others arent aswell.

[Bickendan]

Um, ain't is a word.

[NE2]

But is ain't a word.