Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[jakeroot]

For example most states do not allow left on red, except one-way to one-way.  But for the states that do allow it, put it in a sign.

Washington does not sign left-on-red onto one-way streets, except in one incredibly rare one-off case. Washington is one of the few states to permit lefts onto one ways from two-way streets.

[mrsman]

For example most states do not allow left on red, except one-way to one-way.  But for the states that do allow it, put it in a sign.

Washington does not sign right-on-red onto one-way streets, except in one incredibly rare one-off case. Washington is one of the few states to permit lefts onto one ways from two-way streets.

My point is that every sign and signal should have one consistent meaning in all 50 states.  To the extent that a state wants to carve out an exception for itself, that 's OK - so long as it is signed at every relevant intersection.

Example:  right turn on red after stop is the norm.  In New York City, the general rule is no turn on red (with signs indicating this only at major crossings into the city).  I would require NYC to put in a no turn on red at every intersection.

Example: left turn on red from one-way to one-way generally permitted.  left turn on red not otherwise permitted.  Washington state permits this turn from a two-way to a one-way.  That's OK.  Just add a sign wherever this occurs "Left on red permitted after stop"  I'm sure that even in the biggest cities, this situation occurs less than 100 times.

[UCFKnights]

After looking through all this, I finally figured out the "yellow trap" issue...but I'm now confused as to why this isn't resolved by simply having the signal phasing not create the "yellow trap" in the first place, instead of creating an entirely new signal type?

Problem: A yellow signal in one direction when the other direction remains green.
Logical solution: Don't have a signal phase when there is a yellow signal in one direction while the other direction remains green.
FHWA solution: Study the problem and then create a new signal phase.

I honestly can't say I've ever encountered a "yellow trapped" signal; the signals always in my experience go through the full cycle, even when there isn't opposing traffic, avoiding the issue altogether. The only "trailing" left-turn phases I've encountered have been at fully protected signals.

The only places this happens on the IL side of Chicagoland is either adjacent to a railroad track or when a series of lights are so close to each other that they are timed together.  They are accompanied by "Oncoming Traffic Has Longer Green" signs.

I did see the FYA on US 6 in NW IN the other day.  I was stopped on the side with the leading left.  The other side had lagging, and the driver with the FYA didn't know what to do, so she just went into reverse back into the turning lane. (No one was behind her.)

I get what FYA's are supposed to do.  I just don't see why they're necessary.  If you want lagging lefts, or yellow trap is a problem, then use protected turns only.

So if a city wants to help progression and traffic flow by timing the lights better, and it requires lagging lefts, your solution is to hurt traffic flow by removing the permissive lefts?

I think its being made overly complicated.
1) Solid red: Stop and wait. Some turns on red permitted.
2) Solid yellow: The current phase is ending and there is about to be a new signal, likely red. If it is safe to do so, stop so you can follow the new instruction. (solid yellow does not have to go to red, it can go to flashing yellow)
3) Solid green: proceed.  unless there are arrow indications, yield to on-coming traffic on left turns and yield to pedestrians on right turns.
4) Flashing red - STOP sign equivalent
5) Flashing yellow - treat following the normal ROW order as if there was no signal. Flashing yellows typically never change the meaning of anything on the road (unless signed "when flashing"), intersections are no different. Flashing usually indicates that you should be more aware of the situation though as attention is being drawn to it.

Arrow signal: Follow the exact same rules as above, except the signal only applies to the direction it is indicating.
To review normal ROW order:
1) Pedestrians always have ROW, everyone must yield to pedestrians
2) Through traffic on the main corridor (not facing a STOP or YIELD sign)
3) Turning traffic on the main corridor
4) Vehicles facing YIELD signs
5) Vehicles facing STOP signs

[jakeroot]

For example most states do not allow left on red, except one-way to one-way.  But for the states that do allow it, put it in a sign.

Washington does not sign rightleft-on-red onto one-way streets, except in one incredibly rare one-off case. Washington is one of the few states to permit lefts onto one ways from two-way streets.

<clipped>

Just want to clarify that I meant left-on-red in my original comment, not right. But I think you probably already know that.

[roadfro]

My point is that every sign and signal should have one consistent meaning in all 50 states.  To the extent that a state wants to carve out an exception for itself, that 's OK - so long as it is signed at every relevant intersection.

There is a national guideline, the Uniform Vehicle Code, that has the goal of a uniform set of motor vehicle traffic laws across the U.S. Unfortunately, there is nothing that compels the states to adopt all the laws in the UVC. My understanding is that many states and jurisdictions adopt most if not all UVC provisions (e.g. right turn on red) but some areas have laws that go against it (e.g. New York City).

[roadfro]

1) Solid red: Stop and wait. Some turns on red permitted.
2) Solid yellow: The current phase is ending and there is about to be a new signal, likely red. If it is safe to do so, stop so you can follow the new instruction. (solid yellow does not have to go to red, it can go to flashing yellow)
3) Solid green: proceed.  unless there are arrow indications, yield to on-coming traffic on left turns and yield to pedestrians on right turns.
4) Flashing red - STOP sign equivalent
5) Flashing yellow - treat following the normal ROW order as if there was no signal. Flashing yellows typically never change the meaning of anything on the road (unless signed "when flashing"), intersections are no different. Flashing usually indicates that you should be more aware of the situation though as attention is being drawn to it.

Arrow signal: Follow the exact same rules as above, except the signal only applies to the direction it is indicating and green arrows do not require yielding to pedestrians

This is actually a pretty accurate description of the current meanings of signals, with a slight modification. The only other note would be that in #5, a "when flashing" situation is technically a beacon and not related to traffic signals.

To review normal ROW order:
1) Pedestrians always have ROW, everyone must yield to pedestrians
2) Through traffic on the main corridor (not facing a STOP or YIELD sign)
3) Turning traffic on the main corridor
4) Vehicles facing YIELD signs
5) Vehicles facing STOP signs

The ROW rules are a bit more complex than this, but this works for illustration purposes. On point 3, it is important to note that right turning traffic has precedence over left turning traffic.


EDIT: Added italicized statement in first quote about signal meanings.

[vdeane]

The ROW rules are a bit more complex than this, but this works for illustration purposes. On point 3, it is important to note that right turning traffic has precedence over left turning traffic.

I wish more people were aware of that.  I've had situations while turning where right turning traffic would stop for me going left (making everything take longer while they figure out that they do, in fact, have the right of way) as well as left turning people who don't yield when I'm turning right.

[cl94]

My point is that every sign and signal should have one consistent meaning in all 50 states.  To the extent that a state wants to carve out an exception for itself, that 's OK - so long as it is signed at every relevant intersection.

There is a national guideline, the Uniform Vehicle Code, that has the goal of a uniform set of motor vehicle traffic laws across the U.S. Unfortunately, there is nothing that compels the states to adopt all the laws in the UVC. My understanding is that many states and jurisdictions adopt most if not all UVC provisions (e.g. right turn on red) but some areas have laws that go against it (e.g. New York City).

The "no turn on red" prohibition is signed as a blanket at every entrance to the City, when exiting airports, and at some other locations. The UVC was created by a private group. Basically, it's a document created by lobbyists.  New York's right on red prohibition was instituted loooooong before the UVC was even a thing.

[mrsman]

My point is that every sign and signal should have one consistent meaning in all 50 states.  To the extent that a state wants to carve out an exception for itself, that 's OK - so long as it is signed at every relevant intersection.

There is a national guideline, the Uniform Vehicle Code, that has the goal of a uniform set of motor vehicle traffic laws across the U.S. Unfortunately, there is nothing that compels the states to adopt all the laws in the UVC. My understanding is that many states and jurisdictions adopt most if not all UVC provisions (e.g. right turn on red) but some areas have laws that go against it (e.g. New York City).

The "no turn on red" prohibition is signed as a blanket at every entrance to the City, when exiting airports, and at some other locations. The UVC was created by a private group. Basically, it's a document created by lobbyists.  New York's right on red prohibition was instituted loooooong before the UVC was even a thing.

Maybe someone can clarify, but my understanding is that NY and most Eastern states had no turn on red as the rule for many years.  Then, after the oil crisis of the 1970's the laws were changed as a gas saving measure.  NY's law was written in a way that automatically exempted NYC (except for a city with more than a million people) so that NYC would maintain no turn on red.  Philly and other big cities wanted a similar exemption but did not get it, so Philly signs every intersection in Center City with a no turn on red sign.  But NYC gets a blanket exemption from a rule that is  applicable everywhere else with the only signage being at the city line.

So even if NYC is maintaining their own standard, I am suggesting that because they are enforcing a rule that does not exist elsewhere, it should be signed at every intersection where it's applicable.  My own hope is that it would force the authorities to actually determine which intersections the rule makes sense (lots of pedestrians, weird intersection geometry, blind spots) and have the other intersections follow the general US rule and allow turns on red.  I feel that there's no reason why northern Bronx or Eastern Queens or SI should have this rule, when similar neighborhoods just over the city line don't.

[jeffandnicole]

... so Philly signs every intersection in Center City with a no turn on red sign...

A lot of intersections are signed, but not *every* intersection is signed.  This busy intersection at 12th & Market, for example, permits RTOR. https://goo.gl/maps/Nv5Vm54uFkL2

And this busy intersection at 17th & JFK Blvd permits LTOR. https://goo.gl/maps/We6SLEDnSKQ2

[Big John]

... so Philly signs every intersection in Center City with a no turn on red sign...

A lot of intersections are signed, but not *every* intersection is signed.  This busy intersection at 12th & Market, for example, permits RTOR. https://goo.gl/maps/Nv5Vm54uFkL2

There is a No Turn on Red sign on the pole on the far side of the intersection.

[empirestate]

Maybe someone can clarify, but my understanding is that NY and most Eastern states had no turn on red as the rule for many years.  Then, after the oil crisis of the 1970's the laws were changed as a gas saving measure.  NY's law was written in a way that automatically exempted NYC (except for a city with more than a million people) so that NYC would maintain no turn on red.

It wasn't quite as automatic as that; the law only grants million-plus cities the right to enact a NTOR law, which of course NYC promptly did. But the result is the same.

So even if NYC is maintaining their own standard, I am suggesting that because they are enforcing a rule that does not exist elsewhere, it should be signed at every intersection where it's applicable.  My own hope is that it would force the authorities to actually determine which intersections the rule makes sense (lots of pedestrians, weird intersection geometry, blind spots) and have the other intersections follow the general US rule and allow turns on red.  I feel that there's no reason why northern Bronx or Eastern Queens or SI should have this rule, when similar neighborhoods just over the city line don't.

You'd still be talking about many hundreds of intersections all over Manhattan, not to mention large parts of most outer boroughs, where NTOR would still be found appropriate, and that's a lot of signs. I do appreciate your interest in wanting to standardize the meaning of signal aspects (I think it's a much more important thing to standardize than exit-numbering schemata), but for whatever reason, compliance seems to be quite high in NYC already.

As for Staten Island and other far-outer borough areas, I could see a blanket rule being enacted to permit RTOR there; as it is, they already sign a great many intersections with permission.

[cl94]

Maybe someone can clarify, but my understanding is that NY and most Eastern states had no turn on red as the rule for many years.  Then, after the oil crisis of the 1970's the laws were changed as a gas saving measure.  NY's law was written in a way that automatically exempted NYC (except for a city with more than a million people) so that NYC would maintain no turn on red.

It wasn't quite as automatic as that; the law only grants million-plus cities the right to enact a NTOR law, which of course NYC promptly did. But the result is the same.

So even if NYC is maintaining their own standard, I am suggesting that because they are enforcing a rule that does not exist elsewhere, it should be signed at every intersection where it's applicable.  My own hope is that it would force the authorities to actually determine which intersections the rule makes sense (lots of pedestrians, weird intersection geometry, blind spots) and have the other intersections follow the general US rule and allow turns on red.  I feel that there's no reason why northern Bronx or Eastern Queens or SI should have this rule, when similar neighborhoods just over the city line don't.

You'd still be talking about many hundreds of intersections all over Manhattan, not to mention large parts of most outer boroughs, where NTOR would still be found appropriate, and that's a lot of signs. I do appreciate your interest in wanting to standardize the meaning of signal aspects (I think it's a much more important thing to standardize than exit-numbering schemata), but for whatever reason, compliance seems to be quite high in NYC already.

As for Staten Island and other far-outer borough areas, I could see a blanket rule being enacted to permit RTOR there; as it is, they already sign a great many intersections with permission.

Yes. Sight distances, traffic and high pedestrian volumes make RTOR unsafe, if not impossible in some situations. Compliance is very high (most people that drive in New York are quite familiar with the laws). Even with that, NYCDOT is upgrading T-intersections to FYAs, and as a red arrow means "no turn on red" in New York (and per the MUTCD), making installation of signs relatively unnecessary. Heck, most major intersections on Long Island are NTOR as well.

As said above, we're probably talking the majority of signalized intersections in the City outside of Staten Island that need to be NTOR. It's just easier to have a blanket restriction. Every intersection in Manhattan should be NTOR, as should western Queens/Brooklyn and most of the Bronx. At hundreds of dollars per sign, we'd probably be talking hundreds of thousands of dollars to sign every intersection.

[steviep24]

Spotted a new one in Rochester on NY 33 at The Home Depot/Movie Theatre entrance today.

[cappicard]

Spotted a new one in Rochester on NY 33 at The Home Depot/Movie Theatre entrance today.

My town, Lenexa, Kansas, and neighboring Overland Park and Olathe put in those flashing yellows last year.

[steviep24]

Spotted a new one in Rochester on NY 33 at The Home Depot/Movie Theatre entrance today.

In addition to this one a FYA went into operation this week at NY 33/Pixley Rd.

[pctech]

I was in CO. a couple of weeks ago. Pretty common sight there, but not in Denver itself.

[Fntp]

The only states that don't use this are Pa and Wv

[jeffandnicole]

The only states that don't use this are Pa and Wv

Eh?

Let me know where you find it in New Jersey & Delaware.

[Mohkfry]

Ever since INDOT Northwest put the first one in on US 30 in Schererville, IN back in February, they've been popping up like weeds. Both protected and permissive lefts are getting replaced with the FYA signal. Despite the FYA craze, a new install went into action in Whiting, IN and to my surprise, features doghouse signals instead of a FYA.

[cl94]

The only states that don't use this are Pa and Wv

Eh?

Let me know where you find it in New Jersey & Delaware.

Beat me to the punch. I don't see New Jersey adopting it anytime soon.

[Fntp]

Penndot rejected it because they think that their residents are to stupid to understand it but thats pa for ya 

[Revive 755]

As of today, Kane County, IL, has gotten FYA's up and running for the first two signals on Randall Road north of Fabyan Parkway.

[rickmastfan67]

Penndot rejected it because they think that their residents are to stupid to understand it but thats pa for ya 

Do you have proof of PennDOT saying that?  Last I heard, they were still thinking about it.

[mrsman]

The only states that don't use this are Pa and Wv

Eh?

Let me know where you find it in New Jersey & Delaware.

Delaware has the flashing red arrow that is basically everywhere.  IMO that's functionally equivalent to the FYA, except with the additional requirement to stop before turning.