Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[jeffandnicole]

Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

Are you familiar with this intersection, or just assuming it based on a single GSV photo? 

The FYA can be utilized in a number of different ways.  There's also current construction work going on at the intersection, and as such sometimes not all phases may be fully utilized until the work is complete. 

Also, and a lot of people do this:  Why does a single GSV shot of an assumed mis-use of a traffic signal mean the entire agency statewide doesn't know how to utilize something at every intersection statewide?

[Amtrakprod]

Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

Are you familiar with this intersection, or just assuming it based on a single GSV photo? 

The FYA can be utilized in a number of different ways.  There's also current construction work going on at the intersection, and as such sometimes not all phases may be fully utilized until the work is complete. 

Also, and a lot of people do this:  Why does a single GSV shot of an assumed mis-use of a traffic signal mean the entire agency statewide doesn't know how to utilize something at every intersection statewide?

Woah woah woah! I did notice the construction going on but these signals were built here before this photo was taken(I'm quite sure), and it's not like I can do anything else. That's kinda what we do in the forum. I've never been to Myerstown, I will visit this summer, but we resolved that it was a one time error, that google maps saw.


iPhone

[mrsman]

Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.

Sorry I sent this so late, but I just read this topic from start to finish so I could see the progression.
A bit late, but I filmed a FRA, in Texas! This one was weird, for many reasons. The weirdest being the fact that the light ends its phase by going FRA, Yellow Arrow, and then Red Arrow. In the 15 minutes I stayed there, only one car actually used the FRA, some others did go on the ending yellow though. There are also 2 right turn FYAs here, and an Australian walk sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLbjscwkFe0

Ahhh, very nice find. Definitely answers my question then. On the yellow arrow, traffic is basically permitted to floor it through the intersection as a platoon (at least in those states that use permissive yellow laws, such as WA -- not sure about TX). This seems really odd to me, but I don't know of any other way to end that FRA phase, so...hmm.

Good catch with the pedestrian sound. Didn't know that was Australian, but it was not a sound I've heard elsewhere.

Side-note: why do some drivers sit behind the line and then floor it on yellow? Just pull forward, dickweed. Makes it way less awkward.

I observed that intersection for 15 minutes! And only 1 car actually took initiative to go on the FRA. To be fair traffic was really heavy in the oncoming direction. About how to end the FRA phase, IMO, I think that they need to end the phase with a lagging left turn every time they have one.

Btw I have more videos from this light from both other directions and the crosswalk button that I'll send when I finish. It's certainly an oddity.

Last note; We've hit 1500 posts on this topic!!!


iPhone

I beleive the purpose of the yellow is to terminate the permissive phase.  It is necessary because it may not be noticeable to go from FRA to solid red arrow.

[Amtrakprod]

Most people don't notice the FRA at all anyways.

[jakeroot]

Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

Are you familiar with this intersection, or just assuming it based on a single GSV photo?

The FYA can be utilized in a number of different ways.  There's also current construction work going on at the intersection, and as such sometimes not all phases may be fully utilized until the work is complete.

If you click ahead, you can see that the FYA does activate after the oncoming protected left ends.

I've heard that there are some jurisdictions that do this regularly, but it doesn't make much sense.

[mrsman]

Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

Are you familiar with this intersection, or just assuming it based on a single GSV photo?

The FYA can be utilized in a number of different ways.  There's also current construction work going on at the intersection, and as such sometimes not all phases may be fully utilized until the work is complete.

If you click ahead, you can see that the FYA does activate after the oncoming protected left ends.

I've heard that there are some jurisdictions that do this regularly, but it doesn't make much sense.

It seems that some of the states do not fully believe in the concept of FYA.  It is absolutely critically necessary to be used for permissive left turns for the side opposite a lagging left turn to avoid yellow trap.  But it is useful in many other contexts as well.

Opposite a leading left, it would be nice to have the ability to turn left if there is a break in traffic, but it's not necessary for safety.  In fact, in many situations there is rarely a break in traffic at the beginning of the cycle anyway. 

To an extent, by not allowing the opposing left you put in place a de facto leading pedestrian interval, at least with respect to the left turn.  On one of my regular walks, I take advantage of this.  There is an intersection with a leading left southbound to eastbound (using a doghouse in that direction and no flashing yellow or red arrows at all) and the northbound to westbound left has no protected left turn at all.  If I am crossing on the westside sidewalk going northbound at the beginning of the phase, all of the northbound traffic has a red light and won't be able to turn left into me.  The southbound traffic could make a right turn into the crosswalk, but since I am headed northbound, I would be crossing into the street for a while before I have to contend with a right turner* (southbound to westbound).  But this is not true in the opposite direction since I would start my walk southbound at the same time as southbound cars have their green.

But I doubt pedestrian concerns were a factor at the pictured intersection.  It is probably just PennDot not thinking outside the box.

* Yes, there is still the possibility of interacting with an eastbound to southbound right turn on red. 

[fwydriver405]

Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

There's one similarly programmed like that in Peabody MA at Lowell, Main, Foster, and Central St. Also for some reason, when Central St gets a leading left turn, Main St doesn't get a green arrow. Instead, the flashing yellow right turn arrow continues to flash until the cross thru traffic gets their green.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

I'm wondering if the MA example is programmed like that due to possible RR preemption.

With the right turn, I think the flashing yellow instead of green signifies caution for the RR crossing

And not releasing the permissive left turn with the opposite leading protected turn also protects the RR but prevents any yellow trap if preemption causes a lagging rpotected turn.

[mrsman]

I'm wondering if the MA example is programmed like that due to possible RR preemption.

With the right turn, I think the flashing yellow instead of green signifies caution for the RR crossing

And not releasing the permissive left turn with the opposite leading protected turn also protects the RR but prevents any yellow trap if preemption causes a lagging rpotected turn.

If the signal were smart enough, it would be better for green right arrow during the protected concurrent left at all times except if a train is actually coming, and then it could be a red arrow or a yellow arrow.  Unless a train were present, this would be  perfectly protected right turn, except for the possibility of Central St traffic making a u-turn.  Since Central seems narrow, u-turns are probably not common, but not prohibited either.

In California, right turn green arrows are not displayed with a concurrent left green arrow, unless the u-turn on the concurrent left were prohibited.  Some other states allow it, but put warning yield signs if u-turns are common at the intersection.  I don't know if this is an issue in MA.

[Amtrakprod]

Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

There's one similarly programmed like that in Peabody MA at Lowell, Main, Foster, and Central St. Also for some reason, when Central St gets a leading left turn, Main St doesn't get a green arrow. Instead, the flashing yellow right turn arrow continues to flash until the cross thru traffic gets their green.

Nooo not my home state! This is definitely a Town Issue, since I've tested and witnessed FYAs function correctly, to prevent yellow trap in our state. I know of the train track intersection there, so that may effect somethings, but still that 3 section FYA should be flashing. I would send Peabody's DOT an email.


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

I'm wondering if the MA example is programmed like that due to possible RR preemption.

With the right turn, I think the flashing yellow instead of green signifies caution for the RR crossing

And not releasing the permissive left turn with the opposite leading protected turn also protects the RR but prevents any yellow trap if preemption causes a lagging rpotected turn.

If the signal were smart enough, it would be better for green right arrow during the protected concurrent left at all times except if a train is actually coming, and then it could be a red arrow or a yellow arrow.  Unless a train were present, this would be  perfectly protected right turn, except for the possibility of Central St traffic making a u-turn.  Since Central seems narrow, u-turns are probably not common, but not prohibited either.

In California, right turn green arrows are not displayed with a concurrent left green arrow, unless the u-turn on the concurrent left were prohibited.  Some other states allow it, but put warning yield signs if u-turns are common at the intersection.  I don't know if this is an issue in MA.

Not an issue MA thinks about. No surprise there but I've never heard of an issue with it.


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

Nothing pisses me off more than a yellow trap at a FYA. Anyways I was walking by the intersection and a fire truck was coming in the direction opposite the FYA (this is a 3 way intersection + driveway signals.) I was like ooh we get to see the FYA with the red straight movement. Unfortunately, both heads went red, including the FYA (basically a yellow trap!). I wish more people would think to connect the FYA to the opposing leg! It's so simple! This is another town owned FYA, not a MassDOT one. I've decided to reach out to the coordinator, which I did before when there was a second yellow trap (At the same light!). He was kind and fixed it. Another thing that makes me worried is every time the FYA and through goes yellow (at the same time), the FYA goes red about a half a second before the through direction. I'll send videos explaining!


iPhone

[SignBridge]

Amtrakprod, you said a firetruck was approaching. Was it on an emergency run, where it might have preempted the signal if they are so equipped? I've seen traffic signals do weird things when preempted by emergency vehicles. The normal sequence/cycle of the signals is disrupted causing them to change in non-standard ways. It can cause confusion to drivers, even those of us who are familiar with this stuff. Sometimes I think emergency vehicle preemption causes more problems than it solves.

[Amtrakprod]

Amtrakprod, you said a firetruck was approaching. Was it on an emergency run, where it might have preempted the signal if they are so equipped? I've seen traffic signals do weird things when preempted by emergency vehicles. The normal sequence/cycle of the signals is disrupted causing them to change in non-standard ways. It can cause confusion to drivers, even those of us who are familiar with this stuff. Sometimes I think emergency vehicle preemption causes more problems than it solves.

It was a typical fire truck preempt. The traffic light should've shown a red with FYA left even if the fire truck was coming from the other way!


iPhone

[kphoger]

I may be using the term "Dallas phasing" incorrectly since I had assumed it to refer to any situation where you have a permissive left and red thru in one direction while the other direction has a protected left and green thru

Because it is simply impossible to share this video too many times:

[jakeroot]

^^^^
I think the problem is that "Dallas Phasing" has become synonymous with "lead/lag phasing", even if that's incorrect.

For instance, you could describe your local intersection with flashing yellow arrows and lead/lag phasing as being "Dallas Phased".

TECHNICALLY, only "yield on green" signals with visibility-limiting features can be considered "Dallas Phasing". But, in a casual setting like an online forum, I think it's understandable why Roadsguy's use of the term isn't too unusual or even that wrong, especially for those users that live in areas where Dallas Phasing was common, and where the operation of the signal is/was more apparent than the type of signal being used.

[fwydriver405]

Some more Dover NH signals below:

Main St, Third St, and Broadway

Could this left turn movement that is only controlled with a flashing red arrow be replaced with a 3 section FYA signal? This signal only turns steady red when a pedestrian crosses the street (exclusive pedestrian phase). Like with many Michigan flashing red ball signals, many people treat this left turn like a flashing yellow arrow. Not sure if there is a left turn trap for oncoming emergency vehicle preemption.

Left turn movement

There is also a flashing red right arrow for the perpendicular right turn. I find it strange how there is a 3 section signal (RA,Y,GA) near the stop line, but only a flashing red arrow for the signal on the median...

Right turn movement

---

Washington St, and Chestnut St

Is this newly-installed FYA wired incorrectly? I noticed that when one side gets a protected left turn, the opposing side doesn't get an FYA until the thru signal in the same direction goes green. Either the signal is using Arlington phasing, or worse, not wired to the oncoming thru green:

[mrsman]

Some more Dover NH signals below:

Could this left turn movement that is only controlled with a flashing red arrow be replaced with a 3 section FYA signal? This signal only turns steady red when a pedestrian crosses the street (exclusive pedestrian phase). Like with many Michigan flashing red ball signals, many people treat this left turn like a flashing yellow arrow. Not sure if there is a left turn trap for oncoming emergency vehicle preemption.

Left turn movement

There is also a flashing red right arrow for the perpendicular right turn. I find it strange how there is a 3 section signal (RA,Y,GA) near the stop line, but only a flashing red arrow for the signal on the median...

Right turn movement

Also, is this newly-installed FYA wired incorrectly? I noticed that when one side gets a protected left turn, the opposing side doesn't get an FYA until the thru signal in the same direction goes green. Either the signal is using Arlington phasing, or worse, not wired to the oncoming thru green:

A whole lot of weirdness going on at that intersection.  I'm not a fan of having only a red signal and then going dark.  It is far better to have a three-phased red, yellow, green arrangement, as that is normal.

Perhaps the long "diagonal" crosswalk should be removed as well.  If this crossing weren't there, the right turn would probably be fine with a stop sign and the left turn could probably be a normal yield to opposing traffic without a signal.

[fwydriver405]

A whole lot of weirdness going on at that intersection. I'm not a fan of having only a red signal and then going dark.  It is far better to have a three-phased red, yellow, green arrangement, as that is normal.

This signal flashes a red left-turn arrow for the permissive movement. It only turns solid red during the exclusive pedestrian phase. Last time I remember, I thought that any permissive phase that is ending must have a solid yellow arrow before terminating such phase?

Personally, I'm surprised that the permissive phase continues even when Broadway gets a green signal.

Perhaps the long "diagonal" crosswalk should be removed as well.  If this crossing weren't there, the right turn would probably be fine with a stop sign and the left turn could probably be a normal yield to opposing traffic without a signal.

Actually, this entire area is all connected together:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1980462,-70.87395,18.58z

[Verlanka]

I'm not a fan of having only a red signal and then going dark.

Agreed, since it makes you feel that there isn't a green light at that intersection.

[Amtrakprod]

My grandmother lived in Dover, so I should be able to help.

Some more Dover NH signals below:

Main St, Third St, and Broadway

Could this left turn movement that is only controlled with a flashing red arrow be replaced with a 3 section FYA signal? This signal only turns steady red when a pedestrian crosses the street (exclusive pedestrian phase). Like with many Michigan flashing red ball signals, many people treat this left turn like a flashing yellow arrow. Not sure if there is a left turn trap for oncoming emergency vehicle preemption.

Left turn movement

There is also a flashing red right arrow for the perpendicular right turn. I find it strange how there is a 3 section signal (RA,Y,GA) near the stop line, but only a flashing red arrow for the signal on the median...

Right turn movement

---

Washington St, and Chestnut St

Is this newly-installed FYA wired incorrectly? I noticed that when one side gets a protected left turn, the opposing side doesn't get an FYA until the thru signal in the same direction goes green. Either the signal is using Arlington phasing, or worse, not wired to the oncoming thru green:

So the 3 section FRA is really weird to me too, I actually was going to check it out but I haven't been able to yet. I'll go to Dover soon.

Now about that being replaced with a 3 section 3 FYA, I'm sure you know this but that actually happened to another intersection in Dover (Central @ Washington @ Henry Law).
Before: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1952306,-70.8744288,3a,43.2y,169.22h,89.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1PYVT9JOtVVZ3l8P0f0Xig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
After: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1952495,-70.8744527,3a,32.6y,168.74h,90.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWfmz6LUtb8WxGnpNalQN9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Maybe they will upgrade that, but I'm not sure.

Now that new FYA. First off that intersection is so weird, it even has a Four section with a bimodalW straight arrow: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1949061,-70.8764379,3a,19.3y,190.45h,98.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sje1MGzwoQRfESOl3sSmJTQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Anyways, Dover did incorrectly program this FYA, so you should let Dover's DOT know about that. The FYA should be flashing if the oncoming traffic is green. That's the main point of them.

Now, this is off-topic, but in Dover, there is a very strange grade crossing. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1985366,-70.8767646,3a,60y,335.45h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXIYVeW_8yVeAvY9e8CjKZw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaEe8Joc1RU

Anyways Dover is installing a Roundabout here, that's gonna be weird. Has anyone seen a roundabout through a crossing?

[US 89]

Has anyone seen a roundabout through a crossing?

Not sure if this is what you're after, but there's a light rail line that runs directly through the middle of a roundabout on the University of Utah's campus in Salt Lake City:

https://goo.gl/maps/rahBotUqQph7WF2QA

[Amtrakprod]

That looks like a mess. Interested to see how it turns out here (I don't have high hopes). Prolly should've just put in a traffic light.


iPhone

[fwydriver405]

The post mounted FYA on northbound Tuscan Blvd has the yellow indications wired backwards. Permissive phase flashes the upper yellow arrow, and clearance phase lights the lower yellow arrow. Salem NH in Tuscan Blvd and Central St, near the new Market Basket.

[jakeroot]

^^^^
I'm getting a sort of California vibe from that install. Curved mast arm and post-mounted supplemental signals. Nice work, NH.