Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[Pete from Boston]

What is the protocol for a green arrow to transition to a flashing yellow arrow? I was just at an intersection where the green arrow went to a steady yellow arrow, then a red arrow for maybe one second before changing to flashing yellow.

Of course I slammed on my brakes for an instant at the red arrow, which was needless and potentially dangerous.

Stopping at a red light is dangerous?  I'd contact your elected officials about that one.

What would you have done if the red arrow stayed red?  You knew the yellow arrow traditionally means that a red light would be forthcoming.  Sounds like you were trying to beat the light and second-guessed yourself.

Would you have been more satisfied if the red light stayed red for 5 seconds, then the FYA appeared? 

While I know the point your making is the arrow should've just gone from steady yellow to flashing yellow, the entire reason the FYA exists is to allow for varying modes of operation, so one should never assume a steady yellow arrow will instantly be followed by a flashing yellow arrow.

Actually, I have seen them go from green arrows to yellow flashing arrows with no intervening red, and yes, this one that turns red for one second took me by surprise.

I'm still curious what the standard protocol is for a transition from green arrow to flashing yellow.

[GaryV]

Actually, I have seen them go from green arrows to yellow flashing arrows with no intervening red, and yes, this one that turns red for one second took me by surprise.

That is quite common in my area, for both L and R green arrows.  I think the theory is that if you have a green arrow, there should not be conflicting pedestrian movements.  But on FYA, there could be - so they have you come to a full stop first so you can look for pedestrians before proceeding.

Now if we can just get those pesky pedestrians to obey their signals ...   

[thenetwork]

What is the protocol for a green arrow to transition to a flashing yellow arrow? I was just at an intersection where the green arrow went to a steady yellow arrow, then a red arrow for maybe one second before changing to flashing yellow.

My guess is because it may be an intersection that has time of day phases in which FYAs may not be used due to high volumes of traffic.  Around Durango, CO along US-160 and US-550 duplex, there are times in which one direction gets the leading green arrow and the opposing traffic gets a lagging left green arrow.  Due to heavy daytime traffic in the area, the FYA phase is skipped, but is used in off hours. 

Briefly going to the red arrow before the FYA is more of a safety issue as in "don't assume you'll get a FYA phase". -- a crosswalk may be activated, school kids are present,  FYA appears on weekends/holidays only, etc...

[jakeroot]

Interim red arrows, also knows as a "flashing yellow arrow delay", are an optional part of the FYA setup. But virtually all agencies use it. The fact that it caught you off-guard is alarming to me as its basically normal for all FYAs. Pete: have you never driven through an FYA?

You can read about them in a report Safety and Operational Impacts of Optional Flashing Yellow Arrow Delay available from the TRB. Summary is "The simulation analysis showed significant safety benefits in a delay to the start of the FYA signal indication for all scenarios except the scenario with a low opposing through traffic volume, with no significant negative impacts on average delay, average queue length, or average stopped delay for either left-turning traffic or the intersection as a whole being found."

Seattle FYAs used to exclude the red arrow as the old Seattle setup, which was basically identical to FYAs but used a flashing yellow ball and bimodal green/yellow arrow, did not include a red arrow after the initial green arrow. But new FYA signals do use the interim red arrow.

Other agencies in the Seattle area use anything from a 1 or 2 second red arrow phase, all the way to 5 or 6 seconds. Some do not allow the FYA to activate during the walk phase (FDW only, or for others, both phases combined).

[Amtrakprod]

Interim red arrows, also knows as a "flashing yellow arrow delay", are an optional part of the FYA setup. But virtually all agencies use it. The fact that it caught you off-guard is alarming to me as its basically normal for all FYAs. Pete: have you never driven through an FYA?

You can read about them in a report Safety and Operational Impacts of Optional Flashing Yellow Arrow Delay available from the TRB. Summary is "The simulation analysis showed significant safety benefits in a delay to the start of the FYA signal indication for all scenarios except the scenario with a low opposing through traffic volume, with no significant negative impacts on average delay, average queue length, or average stopped delay for either left-turning traffic or the intersection as a whole being found."

Seattle FYAs used to exclude the red arrow as the old Seattle setup, which was basically identical to FYAs but used a flashing yellow ball and bimodal green/yellow arrow, did not include a red arrow after the initial green arrow. But new FYA signals do use the interim red arrow.

Other agencies in the Seattle area use anything from a 1 or 2 second red arrow phase, all the way to 5 or 6 seconds. Some do not allow the FYA to activate during the walk phase (FDW only, or for others, both phases combined).

MassDOT FYAs do not use a delay. They go yellow flashing yellow. Though it depends town to town!


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

A cool set up and timing in Portsmouth NH.

https://youtu.be/1KYRIaM7-ZY


iPhone

[jakeroot]

MassDOT FYAs do not use a delay. They go yellow flashing yellow. Though it depends town to town!

No kidding? I didn't realize this was common anywhere. Do you have any videos?

[Amtrakprod]

MassDOT FYAs do not use a delay. They go yellow flashing yellow. Though it depends town to town!

No kidding? I didn't realize this was common anywhere. Do you have any videos?

Yup! I'll upload one to YT and send a link.


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

MassDOT FYAs do not use a delay. They go yellow flashing yellow. Though it depends town to town!

No kidding? I didn't realize this was common anywhere. Do you have any videos?

https://youtu.be/LvsGYF8mpKA


iPhone

[plain]

MassDOT FYAs do not use a delay. They go yellow flashing yellow. Though it depends town to town!

No kidding? I didn't realize this was common anywhere. Do you have any videos?

https://youtu.be/LvsGYF8mpKA


iPhone

I've seen many FYA's operate like that in NC as well. Most places in VA, however, has the delay. I think the delay is better, it gets people to come to a complete stop before preceding.

[roadfro]

A cool set up and timing in Portsmouth NH.

https://youtu.be/1KYRIaM7-ZY

A flashing yellow left arrow during an opposing green through and opposing left doesn't seem all that spectacular... There's a few locations here in Reno-Sparks with that phasing deployed.

[jakeroot]

A flashing yellow left arrow during an opposing green through and opposing left doesn't seem all that spectacular... There's a few locations here in Reno-Sparks with that phasing deployed.

I also did not directly comment on that here because, like you, I too am used to seeing such a setup. It's the nature of the FYA, as far as I'm concerned, and quite a lot of cities around here use lead-lag with FYAs too.

[fwydriver405]

That is very interesting.

Proper protocol would be to terminate the permissive phases together, and then enable the solid green arrow after the all-red phase. Presently, oncoming traffic would be trapped by traffic turning right, who is not required to yield to them during the FYA phase, and certainly not during the green arrow phase.

The catch is that right-facing FYA signals are sometimes used in ways that make those turning right yield to everyone else, including those from the left. I've only seen this setup at slip lanes, personally. At any rate, this seems to work fine as most drivers can work out that they have to yield to everyone in these situations (although a supplementary "yield to all traffic on [fya]" sign would be helpful), but at a regular four-way intersection, this isn't how it works.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the 2020 MUTCD may address this issue, per this document:

411. In new "˜"˜Section 4F.15 Signal Indications for Protected/Permissive Mode Right-Turn Movements in a Separate Signal Face,'' which is comprised of existing P2—P6 of existing Section 4D.24, FHWA proposes to allow the display of a steady right-turn red arrow signal indication immediately following the steady right-turn yellow arrow signal indication to provide a red clearance interval, enabling the opposing traffic to start up before releasing the permissive right-turn movement.

FHWA also proposes to add a new requirement to display a steady right-turn yellow arrow and if needed, steady right-turn red arrow following the flashing right-turn yellow arrow for permissive right-turn movements changing to protected right-turn movements when there is an opposing permissive left-turn movement that is being terminated simultaneously. FHWA proposes this change because a yellow change interval and red clearance interval might be needed during a right-turn overlap to allow opposing permissive left-turn traffic to clear the intersection.

By the way, the last time I went to that intersection on December 30, 2020, the intersection wasn't completely finished and I think the PED phases were exclusive ped phase, but only for traffic crossing Main. Not sure if they will implement concurrent ped phasing once everything is complete.

It's a further evolution of the backplates with large slots found in Lincoln, IL?

Notice how the backplate on the center head is partly broken away? Eventually the rest of it will fall away too. Happens all the time on Long Island with NYS DOT's signals. Eventually most of them disappear.

...and this head as well to the left, which as of the taking of that GSV, is halfway on the verge of falling apart completly?

[jakeroot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the 2020 MUTCD may address this issue, per this document:

It definitely seems to, yes.

That part in italics seems like a very obvious inclusion. How is traffic going to clear an intersection if oncoming traffic still has a permissive signal? Red clearance intervals are always necessary when you have permissive left turns, especially when the "destination road" only has one lane and you can't just merge side-by-side.

[Amtrakprod]

A flashing yellow left arrow during an opposing green through and opposing left doesn't seem all that spectacular... There's a few locations here in Reno-Sparks with that phasing deployed.

I also did not directly comment on that here because, like you, I too am used to seeing such a setup. It's the nature of the FYA, as far as I'm concerned, and quite a lot of cities around here use lead-lag with FYAs too.

I mean I get that, but it's more about how the signals lead lag has the arrow as the middle phase.


iPhone

[jakeroot]

A flashing yellow left arrow during an opposing green through and opposing left doesn't seem all that spectacular... There's a few locations here in Reno-Sparks with that phasing deployed.

I also did not directly comment on that here because, like you, I too am used to seeing such a setup. It's the nature of the FYA, as far as I'm concerned, and quite a lot of cities around here use lead-lag with FYAs too.

I mean I get that, but it's more about how the signals lead lag has the arrow as the middle phase.

I'm not sure I follow. In the video, I saw the far side start off with a green through + green left arrow. By the end, the other direction had the green through + green arrow. That's classic lead-lag. The main odd thing about the intersection, to me, is how quickly the lagging green arrow activated. Around here, the FYA would have remained on until a certain amount of time passed, rather than just waiting for oncoming traffic to dissipate. After all, you don't need a green arrow to turn left if there's no oncoming traffic.

[Amtrakprod]

A flashing yellow left arrow during an opposing green through and opposing left doesn't seem all that spectacular... There's a few locations here in Reno-Sparks with that phasing deployed.

I also did not directly comment on that here because, like you, I too am used to seeing such a setup. It's the nature of the FYA, as far as I'm concerned, and quite a lot of cities around here use lead-lag with FYAs too.

I mean I get that, but it's more about how the signals lead lag has the arrow as the middle phase.

I'm not sure I follow. In the video, I saw the far side start off with a green through + green left arrow. By the end, the other direction had the green through + green arrow. That's classic lead-lag. The main odd thing about the intersection, to me, is how quickly the lagging green arrow activated. Around here, the FYA would have remained on until a certain amount of time passed, rather than just waiting for oncoming traffic to dissipate. After all, you don't need a green arrow to turn left if there's no oncoming traffic.

Yeah, that's kinda the cool thing to me. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this but at 0:18 when the medium of the phase is a left arrow not a thru green is kinda unique for a lead-lag.

[Amtrakprod]

Here is another unique (atleast in my opinion) FYA signal in Cambridge MA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw7UdwjWsA8

[SignBridge]

Amtrakprod, that looks like the back of Cambridge Fire headquarters in the middle of the Harvard Campus; am I correct?

[Amtrakprod]

Amtrakprod, that looks like the back of Cambridge Fire headquarters in the middle of the Harvard Campus; am I correct?

Yes


iPhone

[fwydriver405]

Question to ask, how many states allow FYA's to be used as right turn signals? I only ask because I got an email from MaineDOT recently saying that FYA right turn signals have not been approved in the State of Maine...

[Big John]

^^ There is at least 1 in Wisconsin (Oneida St and I-41 ramp) in Ashwaubenon.

[jeffandnicole]

Question to ask, how many states allow FYA's to be used as right turn signals? I only ask because I got an email from MaineDOT recently saying that FYA right turn signals have not been approved in the State of Maine...

Apparently,  NJ's ONLY FYA is for a right turn!

[jakeroot]

They're permitted everywhere, to my knowledge. It's in the MUTCD. Whether the state of Maine wants to use them...well, that's up to them.

Here in Western Washington, right-facing flashing yellow arrows are very common, particularly in Auburn and Federal Way. Seattle also has quite a few now, as does Bellevue. Total, I'd guess 30 to 40 intersections have them.

[Amtrakprod]

Question to ask, how many states allow FYA's to be used as right turn signals? I only ask because I got an email from MaineDOT recently saying that FYA right turn signals have not been approved in the State of Maine...

I've seen them in MA, NY, TX, CA, and even NJ. It's weird that they wouldn't be permitted for just right v left. Though, I do not think Maine gets the purpose of Flashing yellow arrows.

MA really has come to like them, especially Cambridge and in other urban places. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3655017,-71.1040315,3a,24.4y,44.31h,92.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP1HEzAN54BFyFzZCsxs31A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Typically we use them for 3 sections, but you'll find 4-section one occasionally. Unfortunately, all of the 4-section right turn FYAs I know of are incorrectly programmed.