Rural highway upgrade standards

[Beltway]

You know fullwell it is not that simple.  You have to know where the blockage is, what are the alternate routes, and then deal with the congestion on those alternates.

Waze or Google Maps are your friend in that situation. I didn't know of the detour routing around Williamsburg until Waze re-routed me around the congestion automatically. I followed it, and sure enough, it was 45-55 mph highway, and avoided a 3 mile backup on the interstate - which was packed the entire way, and now being forced down to 1 lane.

I don't use Waze or Google Maps in my car and neither do many other people.

What if you are stuck in the jam and it isn't moving an inch and the only quick way out would be backing up, if that is even possible in that situation?

What if there are no exits between you and the incident?

Interstate incidents have too many variables to use some "one size fits all" approach to how you would deal with it.

Given limited data, it may be better to stay in the mess on the Interstate rather than shoot craps and wind up in a worse situation if you leave.

See my comments above.

See -my- comments above.

How about when I was heading north on I-81 at Fort Chiswell and VMS said that the highway was blocked by a truck wreck at Christiansburg?  That is a tough nut to crack for wherever you are heading.  Richmond in my case, but how about Washington?  Harrisburg?  New York?

Where at Christiansburg? If it was north of US-460, then four-lane US-460 is a detour around it. If south of US-460, US-11.

Those highways would be jammed, and in this case the VMS recommended exiting immediately and finding another route, and avoiding the Christiansburg/Roanoke area.

Those towns don't have bypasses, and travel times are definitely slower than on US-460 west of Petersburg.

If they had built the toll road, that would have shaved off 15 minutes, 50 miles at 70 mph is 42 minutes.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda ... I have made my position clear about that highway.

Diagonal route, 5 miles longer than I-581 to US-460.

Closer to 1.5 miles.

Even Google Maps doesn't recommend using Alt US-220

Again, you are making claims about what most people do, without citing any empirical data.

I said above from my experience, from people I know, people I've talked to, etc. the overall preference are interstate highways. And I'm not counting anyone within this forum, rather people I know personally.

So you have talked to a few people and have made broad conclusions, something I have not done here.

Looks like only 2 miles, 3 at best.
Why deal with Winston, Greensboro, and Raleigh-Durham at all if you don't need to?

After drawing out the routing of the new I-74 on Google My Maps after drawing it out exactly following the

It leaves the Interstate system for about 40% of the route, something that you have an antipathy for.

Good luck trying to get people to dip way down to make that trip thru Tarheeler Land.

If there's a wreck on I-81 or I'm timed to get into Norfolk at rush hour, I'd rather do the dip than US-58 all the way across.

How many times do I have to repeat the fact  that the I-81 or I-64 incident(s) can happen after you have committed to that route and you are too far down the road to feasibly go back to US-58?

By utilizing US-58 all the way you have a miniscule chance of encountering what happens routinely on I-81 and I-64, incidents that can easily add one to two hours to total travel time.

I have not yet needed to make that trip, but even today I would most likely utilize US-58 all the way between Bowers Hill and I-77.

You can take an all-Interstate route between Richmond (or Washington) and Buffalo NY, but guess what - it is not the preferred route between those cities.

It's only 4 minutes slower per Google Maps. I would definitely consider it an option, and if traveling at night, I would definitely prefer that over the 2-lane, windy roadway for 150 miles.

About 70 miles of 2-lane, avoids about 200 miles of 10 cent per mile turnpikes, and at least 56 miles shorter.

My friends in the Buffalo area would -not- go by way of Pittsburgh.

[sprjus4]

neither do many other people.

You need to do some fact checking. Waze is a user-based app, and has heavy usage all over the country. You should research about it before making assumptions like "many people don't use it". If many people didn't use it, it wouldn't be that reliable. It's very reliable, and many people -do- use it. Ditto with Google Maps.

Even Google Maps doesn't recommend using Alt US-220

Even Google Maps -does- recommend using Alt US-220.

Provide a screenshot indicating it does not.

It leaves the Interstate system for about 40% of the route, something that you have an antipathy for.

If there's a wreck on I-81 or I'm timed to get into Norfolk at rush hour, I'd rather do the dip than US-58 all the way across.

You missed the entire point. I'm saying if there was a wreck on I-81 or rush hour traffic on I-64 and I was desiring to avoid I-81 and I-64 all together, I'd rather dip into North Carolina and back up at South Hill or Emporia rather than US-58 all the way across. It's more interstate driving than US-58 is, even if the latter end of it is arterial. Remember, us folks in Hampton Roads have to use US-58 anyways coming from the south, so that route is not foreign unlike US-58 west of South Hill which is.

Good luck trying to get people to dip way down to make that trip thru Tarheeler Land.

Good luck trying to sway people to US-58. During off-peak hours, Google Maps automatically routes me that way, doesn't even recommend US-58, and once the Winston-Salem Beltway is completed, that rush hour situation in Winston-Salem won't exist as it will be bypassed, and the route cut by 7 minutes.

As another poster mentioned, most people follow what Google Maps tells them without question. If the Google Maps tells them I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58, they're going to follow that. It does not even recommend US-58, as I indicated.

What do you not get about that?

My friends in the Buffalo area would -not- go by way of Pittsburgh.

If you factor in tolls, that may be a different story, however someone foreign to the area may opt to stay with the interstate especially at night. I know people who do not prefer two-lane driving at night, especially on long-distance routes they're unfamiliar with.

During the day, if the tolls are truly that high, I would consider the two-lane routing, but I would not attempt it at night.

[Beltway]

neither do many other people.

You need to do some fact checking. Waze is a user-based app, and has heavy usage all over the country. You should research about it before making assumptions like "many people don't use it". If many people didn't use it, it wouldn't be that reliable. It's very reliable, and many people -do- use it. Ditto with Google Maps.

Regardless, again, there are any number of incident scenarios where being notified about it won't prevent you from being stuck in it for maybe an hour or more, or from being shunted onto an alternate route that is horribly congested from the diverted traffic.

I would rather avoid such a highway if there was a reasonable competitor route that wasn't subject to those kind of incidents happening routinely.

Even Google Maps doesn't recommend using Alt US-220

Even Google Maps -does- recommend using Alt US-220.

Not unless you utilized the cursor to manually move the route.

Doesn't happen automatically.

During the day, if the tolls are truly that high, I would consider the two-lane routing, but I would not attempt it at night.

Those sections of US-20A do not allow thru trucks and are easily negotiable at night.   

The US-219 section on the western route allows trucks but has relatively low volumes at night and also is easily negotiable.

Breezewood is another motoring insult that you encounter when routing by way of Pittsburgh.
 

[sprjus4]

Not unless you utilized the cursor to manually move the route.

Doesn't happen automatically.

Screenshot it then. It happened automatically on my end. If you use the cursor to manually adjust the route, it won't give you the alternative routings as it does on mine. That was auto-generated based on traffic conditions.

Do I need to do a whole screen recording just to prove it?

[sprjus4]

I would rather avoid such a highway if there was a reasonable competitor route that wasn't subject to those kind of incidents happening routinely.

If I was aware of a massive wreck or major congestion ahead of time, I'd do the dip into NC on I-77, I-74, I-85, and US-58 as Google would recommend to me as the next best routing, and which again, doesn't even make a peep about US-58. But if I'm already up I-81 and something happens, I'll figure out a way around it or sit through traffic.

Just my preferences.

[Beltway]

Not unless you utilized the cursor to manually move the route.
Doesn't happen automatically.

Screenshot it then. It happened automatically on my end. If you use the cursor to manually adjust the route, it won't give you the alternative routings as it does on mine. That was auto-generated based on traffic conditions.
Do I need to do a whole screen recording just to prove it?

I have run it at least 5 different times and I didn't use local points but at least Lynchburg on the east side and Christiansburg on the west side. 

No Alt US-220, but Google Maps is far from perfect, and other people would be subject to these inconsistencies as well.

[Beltway]

I would rather avoid such a highway if there was a reasonable competitor route that wasn't subject to those kind of incidents happening routinely.

If I was aware of a massive wreck or major congestion ahead of time, I'd do the dip into NC on I-77, I-74, I-85, and US-58 as Google would recommend to me as the next best routing, and which again, doesn't even make a peep about US-58.

I just plugged in Wytheville-Norfolk, and it listed 3 routes -- via US-58, via US-460 and via I-64 and I-81. 

No N.C., but again Google Maps is not always consistent.  Another reason why not to over-rely on Internet tools for road routings.

[sprjus4]

I have run it at least 5 different times and I didn't use local points but at least Lynchburg on the east side and Christiansburg on the west side. 

No Alt US-220, but Google Maps is far from perfect, and other people would be subject to these inconsistencies as well.

Still recommends Alt US-220 on a long-distance routing.

If en-route and Google initially routed down US-460 and I-581, but then traffic formed while nearby, Google Maps would change routings while en-route after notifying the user of a faster route. Google Maps and Waze both use real-time traffic conditions to find the best routes that avoid the most traffic possible.

I use a phone mount while driving so I'm not physically holding my phone while using it, and many newer cars (past 1-2 years) also support Google Maps and Waze on Apple CarPlay which would bring those applications over your center console if your car supports CarPlay and you have an iPhone.

I just plugged in Wytheville-Norfolk, and it listed 3 routes -- via US-58, via US-460 and via I-64 and I-81. 

No N.C., but again Google Maps is not always consistent.  Another reason why not to over-rely on Internet tools for road routings.

I've already mentioned this several times... during peak hours such as now the North Carolina routing is not mentioned due to congestion in Winston-Salem. If you plug the route during off-peak hours, it will show that route. Also consider when I-74 is completed around Winston-Salem, 7 minutes will be shaved off that routing, and will bypass the congested area with a 6-lane 65 mph rural freeway facility.

[sprjus4]

Interestingly it actually still shows that as an option even during peak hours... again no peep of US-58.

Doing a custom routing, the travel times are closer and more similar on US-58, but they tend to be slower on US-58 when done during off-peak hours.

There's currently a slowdown being factored in Winston-Salem that is causing 7 minutes of delay. That NC routing is usually around 5 hours 30 minutes, with US-58 around 5 hours 38 minutes.



And now that congestion continues to build in Winston-Salem, now Google advises US-58 on a routing from north of Hillsville to Norfolk. Notice how it says "fastest route -now-, -avoids- crashes on US-52". Normally that US-52 NC routing is faster.

[webny99]

You can take an all-Interstate route between Richmond (or Washington) and Buffalo NY, but guess what - it is not the preferred route between those cities.

It's only 4 minutes slower per Google Maps. I would definitely consider it an option, and if traveling at night, I would definitely prefer that over the 2-lane, windy roadway for 150 miles.

About 70 miles of 2-lane, avoids about 200 miles of 10 cent per mile turnpikes, and at least 56 miles shorter.
My friends in the Buffalo area would -not- go by way of Pittsburgh.

I don't think that's necessarily comparable to the Virginia example(s), but FWIW, I definitely wouldn't go through Pittsburgh either. I'd either take the recommended US 219 route, or, if I wanted to avoid the worst part of US 219, then US 15 to I-99 to I-86 to I-390 to US 20A would be the next-best option. In fact, the latter is mostly freeway and will become the de-facto routing after CSVT is complete.

[Beltway]

Interestingly it actually still shows that as an option even during peak hours... again no peep of US-58.

All this proves is that Google Maps is inconsistent to the point of questioning its results.

I got no "peep" of N.C. routings, and no "peep" of Alt US-220 routings.

[sprjus4]

I got no "peep" of N.C. routings, and no "peep" of Alt US-220 routings.

Two things - screenshot it first off.

Secondly - I already said the NC routing isn't showing due to congestion in Winston-Salem. See my post above which you continuously ignore regarding this factor.

Try doing a routing at 11 am, and take a screenshot of it. Then I'll believe it.

EDIT - Here's another thing. Try Norfolk to Wytheville. My options -

I-64 to I-81 - 5 hours 23 minutes - 351 miles
US-460 to I-81 - 5 hours 37 minutes - 316 miles
US-58 to I-85 to I-74 to I-77 - 5 hours 40 minutes - 352 miles

I do a custom routing to US-58, and it gives me this - 5 hours 45 minutes - 318 miles

Seems the NC dip is faster...

[kphoger]

 

[Beltway]

I got no "peep" of N.C. routings, and no "peep" of Alt US-220 routings.

Two things - screenshot it first off.
Secondly - I already said the NC routing isn't showing due to congestion in Winston-Salem. See my post above which you continuously ignore regarding this factor.
Try doing a routing at 11 am, and take a screenshot of it. Then I'll believe it.

This is too complicated.  I worked in the IT field for 35 years, in a number of high level technical positions and tasks.

Based on all these "output variations" with Google Maps, I will use it for a general trip planning tool but not something for any precise accuracy.

Here's another thing. Try Norfolk to Wytheville. My options -
I-64 to I-81 - 5 hours 23 minutes - 351 miles
US-460 to I-81 - 5 hours 37 minutes - 316 miles
US-58 to I-85 to I-74 to I-77 - 5 hours 40 minutes - 352 miles
I do a custom routing to US-58, and it gives me this - 5 hours 45 minutes - 318 miles
Seems the NC dip is faster...

A "custom routing to US-58"?  Like I said, this is too complicated to spend so much time working with this tool and arguing with someone about the results.

Another factor for many people who make use of paper maps and atlases (like myself even with all my IT experience), is that they don't show this routing because the VA/NC southern border is straight enough that you can't see enough in either state map to see your N.C. I-40 routing in the first place.

I just reviewed both state official highway maps and Rand McNally atlas.

I do have a regional paper map that shows both states but I use it rarely and don't know where it is.

For someone going say between Bristol and Norfolk, it just won't enter in the minds of the typical person to think of not making the whole trip within Virginia.

[sprjus4]

A "custom routing to US-58"?

Google does not present that as a routing option normally. I have to manually adjust the routing by creating a point on US-58 for that to show.

Another factor for many people who make use of paper maps and atlases

Factor a lot of people also use GPS, Google Maps, Waze, and other routing software as well. Most state DOTs even advise motorist check traffic information, use Waze, etc. when driving. VDOT does for one thing. VDOT even integrates Waze in its 511 website, though interestingly they don't display the police trap information that is available on Waze directly.

[sprjus4]

For someone going say between Bristol and Norfolk, it just won't enter in the minds of the typical person to think of not making the whole trip within Virginia.

You're right - for the typical person the routing is I-81 to I-64.

If they are making a detour due to a wreck and using mapping software, that mapping software would route them onto I-77, I-74, I-85, and back to US-58. I've only been routed on US-58 directly during peak hours in Winston-Salem, and that would be gone with the completion of I-74.

And as for US-58, before I got into all these road forums and more invested into this stuff, I really didn't know what US-58 was beyond I-85. I mostly viewed it as the connector between Norfolk, I-95, and I-85 and that's it. Most people aren't really aware of what happens to it beyond South Hill, and many certainly wouldn't think it's a fully completed 4-lane route all the way to southwest Virginia.

If I wasn't as informed, I would generally look at a map and view a preferred detour of I-81 and I-64 to be that I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58 routing, especially if I wasn't aware of a fully completed 4-lane US-58 across Virginia. There's nothing that really screams four-lane expressway about it, it just appears as another arterial route, just as much of a 2-lane road.

[Beltway]

For someone going say between Bristol and Norfolk, it just won't enter in the minds of the typical person to think of not making the whole trip within Virginia.

You're right - for the typical person the routing is I-81 to I-64.
If they are making a detour due to a wreck and using mapping software, that mapping software would route them onto I-77, I-74, I-85, and back to US-58. I've only been routed on US-58 directly during peak hours in Winston-Salem, and that would be gone with the completion of I-74.

If you are already 30 minutes into the 5-hour journey then that info would be useless.

Besides, there are gaps in the current smart traffic center system and even at best, delay estimates aren't but so accurate.

And as for US-58, before I got into all these road forums and more invested into this stuff, I really didn't know what US-58 was beyond I-85. I mostly viewed it as the connector between Norfolk, I-95, and I-85 and that's it. Most people aren't really aware of what happens to it beyond South Hill, and many certainly wouldn't think it's a fully completed 4-lane route all the way to southwest Virginia.

Because it is not fully completed, and the VDOT map accurately shows the 4-lane and bypass sections.

They would need to publicize the completion when it occurs, and make recommendations accordingly.

Maybe have permanent VMS time estimate signs like for I-64 between Richmond and Norfolk.

If I wasn't as informed, I would generally look at a map and view a preferred detour of I-81 and I-64 to be that I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58 routing,

What map?   The VDOT map doesn't show it, and the NCDOT map doesn't show enough of US-58 to know where it goes.  Rand McNally has them on two different pages and not near each other.

[sprjus4]

Because it is not fully completed, and the VDOT map accurately shows the 4-lane and bypass sections.

Hate to say it, but you think everybody just has a VDOT map lying around, and when they go on a trip, they pull out the VDOT map to determine routing? Most people use Google Maps, Waze, etc. and other online routing softwares.

US-58 wouldn't even be considered by most over I-81 and I-64, and if it was, it's likely because their routing software re-routed them down into North Carolina and up I-85 due to a wreck on I-81.

Maybe have permanent VMS time estimate signs like for I-64 between Richmond and Norfolk.

Yes, then most people would then pull out their routing software, and be routed into North Carolina and up I-85. That route will be shaved by 7 minutes with the completion of I-74, and is the current preferred routing by Google Maps and Waze.

What map?

Google Maps, Waze, and other mapping softwares.

This isn't 1990 when State Highway Maps and Rand McNally's where the only maps. Hate to break it to you, a lot of people use online mapping software nowadays, and those displays all the states. You've used Google Maps, you know how seamless it is between state lines. Freeways are highlighted, then the smaller arterial roads below them, including US-58. When I look at a map, I see a freeway routing pop out, not a small arterial road on the map across Virginia. Not saying it's a "small arterial road", but that's all it appears as on a map.

[Beltway]

Maybe have permanent VMS time estimate signs like for I-64 between Richmond and Norfolk.

Yes, then most people would then pull out their routing software, and be routed into North Carolina and up I-85. That route will be shaved by 7 minutes with the completion of I-74, and is the current preferred routing by Google Maps and Waze.

The current preferred routing by Google Maps is 1) I-64 and I-81, 2) US-460 to I-81.

[sprjus4]

Maybe have permanent VMS time estimate signs like for I-64 between Richmond and Norfolk.

Yes, then most people would then pull out their routing software, and be routed into North Carolina and up I-85. That route will be shaved by 7 minutes with the completion of I-74, and is the current preferred routing by Google Maps and Waze.

The current preferred routing by Google Maps is 1) I-64 and I-81, 2) US-460 to I-81.

You continuously dodge the point attempting to be made. If there is a wreck identified on I-81 that is shutting down the highway, and a motorist is detoured onto I-77 South, the preferred routing from that point is I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58.

I decided to go on Waze and do a routing from Wytheville to Norfolk, and similar results as Google Maps. I-81 and I-64 is the preferred, and US-460 and the NC routing are the alternatives - no sign of US-58 being an alternative.



Even more interestingly, I did a routing from Hillsville to Norfolk, and it shows three routings -

1) I-64 to I-81 - 5 hours 10 minutes, 355 miles
2) US-58 - 5 hours 3 minutes, 287 miles
3) I-77 to I-74 to I-85 to US-58 - 5 hours 6 minutes, 327 miles

And oddly enough, it showed "I-64 to I-81" as the most optimal routing despite the few extra minutes and mileage. Probably because while it's slightly longer, it's all interstate with no arterial sections to have to deal with.

A lot of motorists use Waze, and these are the routings they are getting. Ditto with Google Maps when it comes to dipping into North Carolina. They are going to follow their GPS.

[Beltway]

The current preferred routing by Google Maps is 1) I-64 and I-81, 2) US-460 to I-81.

You continuously dodge the point attempting to be made. If there is a wreck identified on I-81 that is shutting down the highway,

You have a gross misconception, you are assuming that the "wreck" is "shutting down the highway", that is rare, commonly there would be delays, and real-time data would be hard to determine in the remote areas beyond the reach of smart traffic centers, and even in the smart traffic center areas it is difficult to estimate delays.

What if the incident is at NB Lexington and you are NB about 10 miles south of there?   
(Could post 20 other situations that would not be solved by your "logic").

There is too much data that is insufficient, partial, bad, or just non-existent, to utilize these tools in the manner in which you are trying.  GIGO.

[sprjus4]

You have a gross misconception, you are assuming that the "wreck" is "shutting down the highway", that is rare, commonly there would be delays, and real-time data would be hard to determine in the remote areas beyond the reach of smart traffic centers, and even in the smart traffic center areas it is difficult to estimate delays.

What if the incident is at NB Lexington and you are NB about 10 miles south of there?   
(Could post 20 other situations that would not be solved by your "logic").

There is too much data that is insufficient, partial, bad, or just non-existent, to utilize these tools in the manner in which you are trying.  GIGO.

You clearly are not familiar with Waze. Real time data from users affected in it. I could pull up Waze as I'm 10 miles away, and people would be reporting lane closures, people can have discussions on there, ask others drivers what's going on, etc.

VDOT -advises- drivers to use Waze for real time traffic information. It's reliable.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this isn't 20 years ago when you had to rely on smart traffic centers to deliver all of the information. I can get most of that info right on my phone before VDOT delivers it from drivers actually stuck in the wreck. Waze quickly updates when there's congestion, alternative routes available, etc. and will let you know what the best options are.

Hell, Waze will tell me if there's a vehicle pulled over on the shoulder up ahead if someone reports it - and most of the time it is reported. People report where speed traps are, lane closures, congestion, it even will tell me the speed of traffic in a congested area (I.E. average speed 28 mph) based on user data, etc.

VDOT is also quick to post this type of information on Twitter and other social media websites. It doesn't take a long time because it's in rural areas - it may be rural but it's a heavily traveled interstate.

And all of these "issues" (that you claim are issues) are funded to be fixed under the $2.2 billion I-81 improvement plan, and the most crash-prone area between Christiansburg and Roanoke is being widened to 6-lanes. Acceleration lanes are being extended, sight improvements are being funded, roadway straightening, shoulder widening, etc.

[Beltway]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this isn't 20 years ago when you had to rely on smart traffic centers to deliver all of the information. I can get most of that info right on my phone before VDOT delivers it from drivers actually stuck in the wreck. Waze quickly updates when there's congestion, alternative routes available, etc. and will let you know what the best options are.

So where do you think your phone gets accurate incident data from if not originally from official sources like police, smart traffic centers and emergency services?  The average motorist isn't going to be producing accurate data and delay estimates.

And all of these "issues" (that you claim are issues) are funded to be fixed under the $2.2 billion I-81 improvement plan, and the most crash-prone area between Christiansburg and Roanoke is being widened to 6-lanes. Acceleration lanes are being extended, sight improvements are being funded, roadway straightening, shoulder widening, etc.

ROTFL

[sprjus4]

So where do you think your phone it gets accurate incident data from if not from official sources like police, smart traffic centers and emergency services?  The average motorist isn't going to be producing accurate data and delay estimates.

The average motorist sitting in the congestion and that can see what's happening is able to produce a lot of valuable information for someone 10 miles away to see. Yes, it's not the "most accurate" information, but it certainly helps. Traffic cameras are also helpful, and a lot more of those are planned and funded to be coming to I-81 under the improvement plan.

Waze has been extremely helpful over the years. I've avoided situations I don't want to be in. I've been notified of congestion and lane closure information before any official source produces it. I've been routed down alternative routes that aren't that bad, and do avoid bulk of the congestion.

That's why it's as popular as it is.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this isn't 20 years ago when you had to rely on smart traffic centers to deliver all of the information. I can get most of that info right on my phone before VDOT delivers it from drivers actually stuck in the wreck. Waze quickly updates when there's congestion, alternative routes available, etc. and will let you know what the best options are.

[Beltway]

Waze has been extremely helpful over the years. I've avoided situations I don't want to be in. I've been notified of congestion and lane closure information before any official source produces it. I've been routed down alternative routes that aren't that bad, and do avoid bulk of the congestion.

Something as much as 5 hours down the road, timely enough to feasibly change routes, not giving a false positive about an incident that would be gone by the time you get there?

Seems a lot easier to use routes that don't routinely have these problems.