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Tolls in Europe

Started by Chris, August 15, 2009, 09:02:12 AM

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J N Winkler

The "solidarity principle" as understood in Europe does not exist in the US.  (You forgot to mention the wealth tax in France, Chris--that would have Americans spitting nails; I myself don't like it even though I am more used to the European approach to tax and spending.)

The other side of the coin is that the US does not have publicly funded health care in the European sense.  If the amount Americans and their employers pay for health insurance were counted as part of their tax burden rather than as a general living expense, I think the burden of compulsory payments Americans face would be about the same, or even a little higher.  (This is not an argument for or against Obamacare, BTW.  I think something has to be done in order to make health care accessible to all Americans and to remove the lack of liquidity in the labor market that results when people feel they have to cling to jobs in order to maintain access to health care, but I do not necessarily think that any of the packages on offer will actually be more efficient than what exists now.  The fact that something has to be done does not mean that it is not possible to make a big mistake.)
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mightyace

O.T.

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 28, 2009, 10:18:34 AM
This is not an argument for or against Obamacare, BTW.  I think something has to be done in order to make health care accessible to all Americans and to remove the lack of liquidity in the labor market that results when people feel they have to cling to jobs in order to maintain access to health care, but I do not necessarily think that any of the packages on offer will actually be more efficient than what exists now.  The fact that something has to be done does not mean that it is not possible to make a big mistake.)

Well, said!

Since I don't want to get this thread to far O.T. on health care, I simply say this.  I too think there are major flaws in the current system and that all alternatives I've seen are either worse or are neutral but simply shift the "bad" parts into different groups of people.  :no:

-----------------------------------------------------------

We now resume our regular thread.  :poke:
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I'm out of this F***KING PLACE!

Chris

I visited Croatia too in my recent roadtrip. Drove some toll roads. (nearly all freeways in Croatia are tolled - and have ,this has to be said, an incredible high quality).

Even a country like Croatia isn't really cheap anymore in tolls. The Croatian GDP per capita is only $ 15,600 (U.S. : $ 46,800) but the tolls for a 60km toll road was € 5.70, ($ 8 for 40 miles or $ 0.20 per mile). When you factor in the income difference, Croatian toll roads are easily 6 - 8 times more expensive than in the U.S.

Scott5114

Speaking of Croatia, we were shown a film in my Geography 100 class that showed a motorway built between two cities in what was then Yugoslavia. The film however was shot after Croatia and Serbia split apart from one another, so the road beyond a certain exit was a war zone. I remember a scene with the military holed up in a service plaza, using it as a fort.
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Chris

That is probably the Croatian A3 which runs from Zagreb to Belgrade. The last 20 or so kilometers was in the Vukovar region, with military running the border controls. As far as I know, things have normalized. The biggest "problems" with borders in that region right now are just the waiting times to enter a country.

Millions of Turkish people live in Germany and the Netherlands, which return each year to Turkey, which is like a 2500 kilometer drive. The best route goes through Serbia, since that route is build to freeway standards. There is an alternative, by staying within the European Union by going through Romania, but the main problem is Romania lacks good roads. There are no freeways on that route through Romania and you have to travel across busy national roads loaded with trucks and another problem is that some of these roads are in a bad condition, though things are improving quickly.

Croatia, these days, has turned into a mass tourism destination, especially along the coast. Istria is particularly touristy, but so is thet stunning coast of Dalmatia down to Montenegro.

Scott5114

Hmm, really? Does the Kosovo situation affect things much? I don't imagine Pristina to be a big tourism destination yet, of course...
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Chris

Kosovo is mostly a political issue, it's not like they're fighting a war over there. Croatia is now far from the war of the 90's, and can present itself as a new mass tourism destination. Bosnia, on the other hand, isn't that far yet. There are also a lot of political tensions within Bosnia, and who knows how long it takes before that country eventually breaks up...

Slovenia is a modern country just like most other western European countries. Their income is similar to that of Italy. The country is neat, well maintained and rich. Not as much as Denmark or Switzerland yet, but they're getting close.

agentsteel53

what did Slovenia do so right that put them ahead of the other former Warsaw Pact countries in terms of economic development?  Slovenia was the first of those countries to join NATO and the European Union, no?
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Chris

Slovenia wasn't part of the Warsaw pact, nor the Eastern Bloc. It was only part of Yugoslavia. They always have been the more prosperous republic of Yugoslavia, benefited from tourism and the fact it's a small country. Slovenia was also the first "new" EU country to join the eurozone. Slovakia (don't mix those two up) followed in 2009. As of 2009, Poland was the only economy that still grew during the recession.

Basically speaking, all new EU countries, except for Romania and Bulgaria can now be considered developed and modern countries. They're not quite the US or western EU yet, but they're getting there quickly. Many of these economies saw growths between 5 and 10% for several years in a row.

Poland is seeing a construction boom with new freeways, up to 1,000 kilometers of freeway will be under construction next year. The Czech Republic had a decent freeway network for several decades, but is slowly expanding it. Slovakia is also building a freeway network, but has terrain difficulties (Tatra Mountains), which require a lot of tunnels and bridges. Hungary's freeway network now reaches almost every corner of the country.

agentsteel53

#34
yes, Yugoslavia kind of always did their own thing (see: Tito) - but why Slovenia as opposed to Serbia, Croatia, etc?  Croatia is also one Hell of a tourist destination, with the beaches on the Adriatic Sea and whatnot, the largest surviving Roman coliseum at Pula, etc... but somehow they didn't get it as right as Slovenia, which basically has been Austria South since 1991. 

I remember traveling in Slovenia and Croatia in 1996 and Slovenia's freeway system was almost indistinguishable from that of Austria, while Croatia had significantly more two-lane roads.
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Chris

#35
IMG WIDTH=800 - Yr friendly mod.

Slovenia has never gotten into a real war (except for some six day stuff, but that's barely worth mentioning). Croatia suffered more from the war, and has now almost completed rebuilding their infrastructure. It can be said that Croatia has one of the most modern freeway networks in Europe. Their tunnels count as the safest too, in various motorists club tests. Croatia has constructed hundred of kilometers of freeways in the past 15 years. All larger cities are now connected by freeway (Autoceste) and they're now focusing on rebuilding the national highway network.

The most interesting Croatian freeway is the A1 along the Dalmatian coast. It runs through a very desolate, yet scenic landscape close to the sea.

network map:


This is the pavement quality on much of Croatia's freeways:

picture taken by me in August.

The island of Krk:


Croatian signage, a bit like Germany (shapes)


Try to build freeways in this kind of terrain:


Oh man this kind of asphalt just asks to be driven!






rest area:




agentsteel53

#36
wow! excellent photos.
(Edit: the rest of this message was OT.)
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mightyace

My Flickr Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace

I'm out of this F***KING PLACE!

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Chris on August 15, 2009, 09:02:12 AM
Denmark-Sweden
Denmark has two toll bridges, each is 12 miles long. These require tolls, the Great Belt Bridge is € 26 or $ 36, and the Oresund bridge into Sweden is € 38 or $ 54 for a single trip. A cross country trip still accumulates for € 128 or $ 181 even with the general freeways being toll free. Sweden has no further toll roads, only a congestion charge in Stockholm, but does not apply to non-Swedish license plates.

Sweden has a second international tolled crossing, on Motorway E6 at the border with Norway.  That's the Svinesund Bridge.
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