Driving where you don't speak the native language

[cpzilliacus]

Then there's the matter of Quebec.  I know a few words of French (and can usually understand the highway signs), but not enough for a decent conversation with someone.

But in spite of the provincial language policies that strongly encourage French, I have found that most people there I have interacted with know English, and many of them speak absolutely fluent English.

[vdeane]

And, from what I've heard, there are even neighborhoods in Quebec where people have English as a first language... a lot of that province would probably be 100% English were it not for the provincial policies.

They aren't even all that recent either even if the special status is... Ontario was split off after the American Revolution to keep loyalists fleeing the US from polluting the French-speaking Quebec with English!

[StogieGuy7]

And, from what I've heard, there are even neighborhoods in Quebec where people have English as a first language... a lot of that province would probably be 100% English were it not for the provincial policies.

They aren't even all that recent either even if the special status is... Ontario was split off after the American Revolution to keep loyalists fleeing the US from polluting the French-speaking Quebec with English!

Yes, you're right.  And, over the past 20 years (since the separatist sentiments really got going), tens of thousands of Anglophones have fled Quebec.  For example, many of the eastern townships (Estrie) were primarily English speaking.  No longer.  And, the entire western portion of the Ile de Montreal was almost entirely Anglophone.  Now, many have left.  And, the more that move away (usually to Ontario), the more oppressive the language policies become as there are fewer and fewer Anglophones to oppose them. 

I've always found Canada's handling of the language issue to be absurd.  French is required to be an equal to English nationwide, despite the fact that there are very few Francophones west of easternmost Ontario.  By the time you get to B.C., far more of the population speaks Mandarin than French.   Yet, the one place where the 'language equality' rule doesn't apply is Quebec, where - by law - English cannot have equal billing to French.  They even had to make up new words.  Such as a word for "golf", because it was deemed to be English.  Yet, in France, they call it "golf".   And, do stop signs in France actually say 'ARRET'?  There are other examples where Quebec's language police cause the province to be more radically French than France (by far).   

All that said, I still never had an issue reading the signs in Quebec.  They are easy to figure out.  Even though I don't speak French.   

[Brandon]

^^ Bizarrely, stop signs in France, from the pictures I've seen, actually say "STOP".

[Chris]

Spanish stop signs also say STOP and not ALTO. The stop sign is pretty much universal in Europe, but in Russia they say СТОП (STOP). However I believe that Bulgaria and Serbia (countries with the Cyrillic alphabet) do use the latin form of STOP. While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script, Bulgaria is Cyrillic-only.

[english si]

While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script

But then it's called Croat or Croatian.

Neither Bulgarian or Serbian have the letter Ѕ, but Macedonian does have it, so it says 'dztor' if you transliterate it from Cyrillic to Latin.

Given it's the really really obvious hexagonal shape, it matters less that it's in an obvious language.

[Dr Frankenstein]

Yes, you're right.  And, over the past 20 years (since the separatist sentiments really got going), tens of thousands of Anglophones have fled Quebec.  For example, many of the eastern townships (Estrie) were primarily English speaking.  No longer.  And, the entire western portion of the Ile de Montreal was almost entirely Anglophone.  Now, many have left.  And, the more that move away (usually to Ontario), the more oppressive the language policies become as there are fewer and fewer Anglophones to oppose them. 

I've always found Canada's handling of the language issue to be absurd.  French is required to be an equal to English nationwide, despite the fact that there are very few Francophones west of easternmost Ontario.  By the time you get to B.C., far more of the population speaks Mandarin than French.   Yet, the one place where the 'language equality' rule doesn't apply is Quebec, where - by law - English cannot have equal billing to French.  They even had to make up new words.  Such as a word for "golf", because it was deemed to be English.  Yet, in France, they call it "golf".   And, do stop signs in France actually say 'ARRET'?  There are other examples where Quebec's language police cause the province to be more radically French than France (by far).   

Québec's tendency of being more strictly French that France comes from a combination of its minority status among North American states and its population's desire to retain their francophone heritage. France is in some kind of balanced environment where each of its neighbouring states speak its own language and has no obvious numeric superiority over the others.

I'm French (I'm the only fluent English speaker in my family), yet I disagree with some of Québec's language policies and almost all of the new policies they want to pass this year (which includes banning French students from attending English colleges).

Despite having elected a sovereignist government a few weeks ago, not a lot of people (40% in the most optimistic polls) are very hot to the idea of seceding from Canada right now, given how problems like an aging infrastructure and corruption still need to be addressed. Considering that the PQ is in a minority government, it's safe to say it won't happen within the current term.

I like Canada's bilingualism. I think it's part of the rich culture that makes this country unique, and I think there is much more friction than needed between the two language groups; friction that unfortunately goes beyond political topics.

I think that the equal status of French as an official language along with English is justified. 23.2% of Canadians speak French natively and 58.8% of Canadians were raised in English (2006 Census). With the non-official and indigenous languages taken out, you have about 1 native French speaker for every 2.5 native English speakers. The number of native French speakers in the country is over 6 million, and about 600,000 with Québec taken out of the numbers. (This means that roughly one francophone out of 10 lives outside of Québec.) There needs to be some sort of availability for French language services in nearly all of the eastern provinces because the absolute demand is there.

Switzerland has official equal status for French and Italian along with German for proportions of respectively 20% and 6.5% (German has 64%, Romansh has second-class status with 0.46%, 35,000 speakers).

I do not necessarily agree with Québec's policy of having only one official language and no official recognition of English, despite having over 500,000 native speakers representing nearly 8% of the population. While I understand the need to preserve our French heritage (which I value, and yes, I prefer French over English as a language in general), I find it very odd that the government strives to make its services accessible to people with all kinds of disabilities while completely disregarding the 5% that is not fluent in French. Of course, a lot of people disagree with that and would like the provincial government to completely ignore languages other than French, judging from the protests that the government agency I work for has been subjected to due to the fact that we provide forms and basic services in English upon request... Learning French should be strongly encouraged, and I believe that there should be some requirement for more-than-basic French to get a college (CÉGEP) degree, even English ones (after all, everyone already has to pass three literature classes and a standardized literature exam for some reason, regardless of the major).

I agree, however, with the requirement that all commercial businesses be able to serve their customers in French, and that commercial displays and signage have French as the predominant language. Requiring that French text be twice as large as other languages seems to be pushing it, and I haven't seen that specific requirement in the Bill 101 text... jurisprudence perhaps? (extending that requirement to highway signs is just ridiculous.) As long as French appears first and that it isn't smaller than other languages, I'm perfectly fine with it.

Regarding stop signs, "stop" is present in French dictionaries, it is legal to use it on a stop sign (the MTQ even has a standard design for that version), and some cities use it, despite the repeated complaints of uninformed citizens. The use of "ARRÊT" on almost all stop signs is mostly symbolic, in my opinion.

The official French word for "golf" is "golf". The OQLF did make official French versions of some specialized sport terminology, like skateboarding and snowboarding figures, which were laughed at and entirely disregarded by everyone. More recently, a fancy translation for the word "Tweet" ("gazouillis") started to appear in the media last year, but it has not been sanctioned by the OQLF, which lists both as discouraged but not incorrect (the recommended terms are the brand-neutral forms micromessage and microbillet).

[1995hoo]

....

The official French word for "golf" is "golf". The OQLF did make official French versions of some specialized sport terminology, like skateboarding and snowboarding figures, which were laughed at and entirely disregarded by everyone. More recently, a fancy translation for the word "Tweet" ("gazouillis") started to appear in the media last year, but it has not been sanctioned by the OQLF, which lists both as discouraged but not incorrect (the recommended terms are the brand-neutral forms micromessage and microbillet).

Indeed there is a street near Mont-Tremblant named chemin du Golf, which amused me when I saw it:

[realjd]

Spanish stop signs also say STOP and not ALTO. The stop sign is pretty much universal in Europe, but in Russia they say СТОП (STOP). However I believe that Bulgaria and Serbia (countries with the Cyrillic alphabet) do use the latin form of STOP. While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script, Bulgaria is Cyrillic-only.

Many Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas use PARE instead of ALTO on their stop signs. Puerto Rico is the one that immediately comes to mind. PARE = stop while ALTO = halt.

[StogieGuy7]

Spanish stop signs also say STOP and not ALTO. The stop sign is pretty much universal in Europe, but in Russia they say СТОП (STOP). However I believe that Bulgaria and Serbia (countries with the Cyrillic alphabet) do use the latin form of STOP. While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script, Bulgaria is Cyrillic-only.

Many Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas use PARE instead of ALTO on their stop signs. Puerto Rico is the one that immediately comes to mind. PARE = stop while ALTO = halt.

Having traveled extensively throughout Latin America, I can tell you where:

ALTO is used in Mexico and Central America; PARE is used in South America (even Brazil) and in Spanish-speaking Caribbean countries.  Why?  I honestly can't tell you.  The strict translation of "ALTO" in this context (because as a adjective it would be 'high' or 'tall') would be "HALT".   PARE does mean "you stop".   

And yes, I know that stop signs in at least some of Spain say "STOP", but I cannot speak for the entire country.

[StogieGuy7]

I think that the equal status of French as an official language along with English is justified. 23.2% of Canadians speak French natively and 58.8% of Canadians were raised in English (2006 Census). With the non-official and indigenous languages taken out, you have about 1 native French speaker for every 2.5 native English speakers. The number of native French speakers in the country is over 6 million, and about 600,000 with Québec taken out of the numbers. (This means that roughly one francophone out of 10 lives outside of Québec.) There needs to be some sort of availability for French language services in nearly all of the eastern provinces because the absolute demand is there.

So, outside of Quebec, only 5% of the population are native French speakers?  Around 600,000?  Take out New Brunswick (which is truly bilingual), what do you have?  A very small percentage - especially in western Canada.  Because I'd venture that at least half of that remainder live in New Brunswick (which is beautifully bilingual).   Many of the rest live in eastern Ontario, leaving only Quebec transplants who live in major cities outside the province.  So, seeing everything in English and French while in Calgary or Vancouver is a total non-sequitur.   As I said before, there are far more speakers of Mandarin than French in Vancouver and more Arabic and Mandarin speakers in Toronto than there are francophones.  This is why the equal billing of French across the country sometimes seems odd.

All that said, I still wouldn't have a problem with it IF everything were equal.   But, what you've so aptly described is exactly what I take issue with: francophone Quebecois get to have their cake and eat it too.  Everyone in the country has to have French thrust upon them, whether people there are French-speaking or not.  Yet, English does not have any status in Quebec - so the majority of Canadians who speak English are foreigners in parts of their own country.  It's unreasonable in my view and I respectfully disagree with you there.

And, I'll tell you one last thing: these laws are not doing Quebecois any favors.  The province has suffered economically while boosting Ontario over the past 2 decades.  Furthermore (and as an anecdote), I can personally attest to having visited local businesses and government offices in communities outside of Montreal where only 1 person in the building spoke English.  And they'd only speak it with me after finding out that I am from the US.  Some municipal officers had to go and fetch the mayor to talk with me, because he'd be the only English speaker!  That's not good when you live on a continent and in a nation that is economically dependent on the English-speaking majority.  I've found more bilingual people in Costa Rica than I encountered in non-Montreal Quebec!   And this was more than once.  Places like Drummondville, Quebec City, and Trois Riveres - to name a few.   That cannot possibly be good for business.   

Anyhow, at least I could figure out the signs with little difficulty.   

[kphoger]

Spanish stop signs also say STOP and not ALTO. The stop sign is pretty much universal in Europe, but in Russia they say СТОП (STOP). However I believe that Bulgaria and Serbia (countries with the Cyrillic alphabet) do use the latin form of STOP. While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script, Bulgaria is Cyrillic-only.

Many Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas use PARE instead of ALTO on their stop signs. Puerto Rico is the one that immediately comes to mind. PARE = stop while ALTO = halt.

Having traveled extensively throughout Latin America, I can tell you where:

ALTO is used in Mexico and Central America; PARE is used in South America (even Brazil) and in Spanish-speaking Caribbean countries.  Why?  I honestly can't tell you.  The strict translation of "ALTO" in this context (because as a adjective it would be 'high' or 'tall') would be "HALT".   PARE does mean "you stop".   

And yes, I know that stop signs in at least some of Spain say "STOP", but I cannot speak for the entire country.

More tehcnically, alto is a noun, which came to Spanish either from the Latin altus or from the German halt.  The hypothetical verb form altar, as far as I know, does not exist in Spanish.  Pare is the command form of the verb parar, which means to stop.  Therefore ALTO would imply "this is where you should stop", whereas PARE would imply "Stop, dammit!".

CORRECTION:  The other meaning of alto, which is high or tall, came from the Latin altus.

[1995hoo]

Spanish stop signs also say STOP and not ALTO. The stop sign is pretty much universal in Europe, but in Russia they say СТОП (STOP). However I believe that Bulgaria and Serbia (countries with the Cyrillic alphabet) do use the latin form of STOP. While Serbian can be written in both Latin and Cyrillic script, Bulgaria is Cyrillic-only.

Many Spanish-speaking parts of the Americas use PARE instead of ALTO on their stop signs. Puerto Rico is the one that immediately comes to mind. PARE = stop while ALTO = halt.

Having traveled extensively throughout Latin America, I can tell you where:

ALTO is used in Mexico and Central America; PARE is used in South America (even Brazil) and in Spanish-speaking Caribbean countries.  Why?  I honestly can't tell you.  The strict translation of "ALTO" in this context (because as a adjective it would be 'high' or 'tall') would be "HALT".   PARE does mean "you stop".   

And yes, I know that stop signs in at least some of Spain say "STOP", but I cannot speak for the entire country.

More tehcnically, alto is a noun, which came to Spanish either from the Latin altus or from the German halt.  The hypothetical verb form altar, as far as I know, does not exist in Spanish.  Pare is the command form of the verb parar, which means to stop.  Therefore ALTO would imply "this is where you should stop", whereas PARE would imply "Stop, dammit!".

Romanes eunt domus!

[J N Winkler]

And yes, I know that stop signs in at least some of Spain say "STOP", but I cannot speak for the entire country.

"STOP" has official standing:  it is diagrammed in the national traffic signing catalogue.  Spain is occasionally bilingual on direction signs and certain specialized kinds of informatory sign, but not--to my knowledge--on regulatory signs other than toll signs.  Any uses of words other than "STOP" in Spain are likely to be local curiosities, like stop signs in Cherokee on Indian reservations, or "WHOA" inside dudified rural subdivisions in Wyoming.

[cpzilliacus]

And yes, I know that stop signs in at least some of Spain say "STOP", but I cannot speak for the entire country.

"STOP" has official standing:  it is diagrammed in the national traffic signing catalogue.  Spain is occasionally bilingual on direction signs and certain specialized kinds of informatory sign, but not--to my knowledge--on regulatory signs other than toll signs.  Any uses of words other than "STOP" in Spain are likely to be local curiosities, like stop signs in Cherokee on Indian reservations, or "WHOA" inside dudified rural subdivisions in Wyoming.

The word for STOP in the Finnish language is PYSÃ,,KKI.  The word for STOP in the other official language in Finland (Swedish) is STOPP.

In spite of the above, this is what an official STOP sign looks like in Finland:

[Alps]

"WHOA" inside dudified rural subdivisions in Wyoming.

Which is completely unenforceable.

[mc78andrew]

I thought this fun fact would add to this discussion.

In New York, the drivers license application form is available in English, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, and Bengali.

http://www.dmv.ny.gov/forms.htm#mv44

I am pretty sure I have never seen a sign in Bengali before. 

[roadman65]

I went to Puerto Rico in 09.  I encountered a biker trying to tell me something while driving NB PR 52 out of Ponce.  I do  not know to this day what he was trying to communicate, as the car I was driving looked Okay and no gas cap open or low tire pressure.

I ofter wonder how many Puerto Ricans know the English language around the island?  I know in the tourist areas they do, but out of the mainstream resorts, does anyone really know our language?

[kphoger]

I went to Puerto Rico in 09.  I encountered a biker trying to tell me something while driving NB PR 52 out of Ponce.  I do  not know to this day what he was trying to communicate, as the car I was driving looked Okay and no gas cap open or low tire pressure.

I ofter wonder how many Puerto Ricans know the English language around the island?  I know in the tourist areas they do, but out of the mainstream resorts, does anyone really know our language?

According to a 2009 study by the University of Puerto Rico, nine of every ten Puerto Ricans residing in Puerto Rico do not speak English at an advanced level.

More recently, according to the 2005—2009 Population and Housing Narrative Profile for Puerto Rico, among people at least five years old living in Puerto Rico in 2005—2009 . . . 85 percent reported that they did not speak English "very well."

The 2000 U.S. Census reported that 71.9% of Puerto Rico residents spoke English less than "very well".

[Road Hog]

Heck, I don't speak English very well either.