Those are two topics I never see discussed on here.
Does your state do anything with regards to line painting/striping that you like or dislike??
I always found this annoying in NY where the gore lines never meet. Plus NY's lines seem over sized.
http://www.google.com/maps?q=i-84+brewster,+ny&hl=en&ll=41.430372,-73.625232&spn=0.000016,0.006899&sll=41.500765,-72.757507&sspn=1.176632,1.766052&hnear=Interstate+84,+Brewster,+Putnam,+New+York+10509&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.428078,-73.62932&panoid=IEp2MATnkJrqJ7bCj6s3zA&cbp=12,135.7,,0,22.81
And with street lighting, I miss the old NY parkway wooden light posts. Also the old bubble round light bulbs that were common in the 60s and 70s. I wish I had a pic. Here in CT, there are still some original light posts on some highways, such as CT-8 in Waterbury.
The 25-25-25-25-25 spacing on the NJ Turnpike and Chicago toll roads annoys me. Those agencies think it's an improvement for their mix of traffic, but every other freeway in the nation uses 10-30-10-30, so why can't they? (Related - agencies that use 10-20 or 15-25)
Steve, I find the shorter dash frequency to be helpful for urban environments, because it provides an additional clue that you are not in a rural area anymore. While you may be going the same speed in the town as in the country, the more frequent dashes make it feel like you are going faster than you are, prompting you to slow down. Nebraska uses 8-16 (I think) when the speed limit is below 40 MPH or so, and the normal 10-30 when above 40 MPH.
Quote from: Steve on September 20, 2012, 11:27:18 PM
The 25-25-25-25-25 spacing on the NJ Turnpike and Chicago toll roads annoys me. Those agencies think it's an improvement for their mix of traffic, but every other freeway in the nation uses 10-30-10-30, so why can't they? (Related - agencies that use 10-20 or 15-25)
Not
every; Wisconsin uses 12.5|37.5. Furthermore, the 1:3 ratio is only a "should" condition, per MUTCD §3A.06.04
Quote from: Steve on September 20, 2012, 11:27:18 PM
The 25-25-25-25-25 spacing on the NJ Turnpike and Chicago toll roads annoys me. Those agencies think it's an improvement for their mix of traffic, but every other freeway in the nation uses 10-30-10-30, so why can't they? (Related - agencies that use 10-20 or 15-25)
California does not adhere to the 10-30 either.
California uses 12-36 for roads that have a speed limit of 45 MPH or more and 7-17 for roads with speed limits less than 45 MPH. The guidance statement for 10-30 was crossed out of the California MUTCD and was replaced with a standard-statement stating that all longitudinal lines must conform to Figures 3A-101 through 3A-113. These were figures added by Caltrans.
I like the spacing ISTHA uses. It looks cleaner and more professional than the sad excuse IDOT has for striping.
I never did like the PA Turnpike's--and even more so the NJ Turnpike--really long dotted lines. But my dad says that's how they used to be done, and the NJTA likes old-style stuff like the currently-being-phased-out (:() neon VMSes.
Haven't been to New York since a road trip with my dad up the whole I-99 alignment to Painted Post (it should go up 390 :P). I don't remember the gore points not meeting, but it sounds really annoying. I
do remember the dotted line-solid line pairs instead of the short dotted lines that PennDOT does.
I also don't like how NJDOT stripes all there "ONLY <arrow>" setups at turning lanes
really short. It just looks weird, both driving (looks squished) and satellite view (looks weird compared to the stretched setup in other states).
Never been anywhere near California, so I don't know if CalTrans' giant arrows look normal driving. Though not as important, they sure look weird from above.
Probably all this has to do with the fact that I'm only used to PA, naturally, since I've never lived outside of it. :-D
Quote from: Steve on September 20, 2012, 11:27:18 PM
The 25-25-25-25-25 spacing on the NJ Turnpike and Chicago toll roads annoys me. Those agencies think it's an improvement for their mix of traffic, but every other freeway in the nation uses 10-30-10-30, so why can't they? (Related - agencies that use 10-20 or 15-25)
Even worse is when the NJ Turnpike does 25-20!
As you can see here: http://goo.gl/maps/iJN1h , the distance of the strip is clearly longer than the distance between strips. And if you think it's just an optical illusion, measure with a rule or a piece of paper the strip and non-strip distance.
Quote from: doofy103 on September 20, 2012, 10:56:26 PM
Those are two topics I never see discussed on here.
Does your state do anything with regards to line painting/striping that you like or dislike??
....
Virginia's specification for the striping on at least the Interstates calls for a reflective tape to be literally embedded in the pavement. Problem comes when they need to restripe the lanes, such as in a work zone. Invariably they don't fill in the rut that gets left behind when they remove the old marking and so you feel your car pulling every which way as you drive over it (especially if the lane you're in uses part of what used to be the shoulder). It also makes it very hard to tell where the lines are in the late-afternoon sun glare or sometimes in the rain.
Regarding gore lines not meeting, onramps in the Carolinas are often like that, except they'll use a broken line for the portion beyond the end of the solid line, I guess to underscore that the onramp is still a separate lane but it's OK to change lanes into the travel lane at that point. I never had a strong reaction to it either way when I lived in North Carolina. Incidentally, it seems like NCDOT is moving away from that style as they repave/rebuild older roads.
WisDOT has some really poorly done merge gore points on US 41(I-xx) here in the Appleton area, especially from College Ave (WI 125) to SB US 41(I-xx).
Also, I don't like how WisDOT stripes a two lane road when one lane divides into two general use lanes. Instead of just gradually flaring the lane wider until it is two lanes wide, they'll direct the lane to the right side and then suddenly the new left lane appears out of the ether.
An example of this is: http://binged.it/P5Yci5
This is EB WI 96 (Wisconsin Ave) on its approach into the Appleton area, along the north side of the Outagamie County Regional Airport (ATW) in Greenville Twp.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on September 21, 2012, 10:33:21 AM
Also, I don't like how WisDOT stripes a two lane road when one lane divides into two general use lanes. Instead of just gradually flaring the lane wider until it is two lanes wide, they'll direct the lane to the right side and then suddenly the new left lane appears out of the ether.
I always thought that was kinda quirky too. At one point, I had heard an explanation for it, but I haven't the foggiest what that explanation was any more. It doesn't seem to make the transition any safer, as at some point, opposing traffic just has a double yellow separating them from each other. Additional median nose protection perhaps?
WisDOT's Standard Detail for what Mike is referring to: http://roadwaystandards.dot.wi.gov/standards/fdm/SDD/15c21.pdf#sd15c21 (http://roadwaystandards.dot.wi.gov/standards/fdm/SDD/15c21.pdf#sd15c21)
Texas turnarounds here in Wichita have a simple left turn painted on the pavement, rather than a full U turn.
I see drivers stuck trying to get out of the wrong lane at least weekly, presumably for this reason.
Quote from: mgk920 on September 21, 2012, 10:33:21 AM
Also, I don't like how WisDOT stripes a two lane road when one lane divides into two general use lanes. Instead of just gradually flaring the lane wider until it is two lanes wide, they'll direct the lane to the right side and then suddenly the new left lane appears out of the ether.
That's somewhat common in California as well...
CA-84 west approaching I-680
http://www.google.com/maps?ll=37.596605,-121.862358&spn=0.001171,0.001725&t=k&z=19
CA-132 west approaching I-5
http://www.google.com/maps?ll=37.638037,-121.328958&spn=0.00117,0.001725&t=k&z=19
These were the only two I could recall off of the top of my head. I'm pretty sure there are more though.
Quote from: mgk920 on September 21, 2012, 10:33:21 AM
WisDOT has some really poorly done merge gore points on US 41(I-xx) here in the Appleton area, especially from College Ave (WI 125) to SB US 41(I-xx).
Also, I don't like how WisDOT stripes a two lane road when one lane divides into two general use lanes. Instead of just gradually flaring the lane wider until it is two lanes wide, they'll direct the lane to the right side and then suddenly the new left lane appears out of the ether.
An example of this is: http://binged.it/P5Yci5
This is EB WI 96 (Wisconsin Ave) on its approach into the Appleton area, along the north side of the Outagamie County Regional Airport (ATW) in Greenville Twp.
Mike
It would appear to direct people to the right lane, in keeping with the "Keep Right Except To Pass" theory.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 21, 2012, 03:22:01 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on September 21, 2012, 10:33:21 AM
WisDOT has some really poorly done merge gore points on US 41(I-xx) here in the Appleton area, especially from College Ave (WI 125) to SB US 41(I-xx).
Also, I don't like how WisDOT stripes a two lane road when one lane divides into two general use lanes. Instead of just gradually flaring the lane wider until it is two lanes wide, they'll direct the lane to the right side and then suddenly the new left lane appears out of the ether.
An example of this is: http://binged.it/P5Yci5
This is EB WI 96 (Wisconsin Ave) on its approach into the Appleton area, along the north side of the Outagamie County Regional Airport (ATW) in Greenville Twp.
Mike
It would appear to direct people to the right lane, in keeping with the "Keep Right Except To Pass" theory.
Yes, that's why I like that striping. The only bad thing is that it often makes everyone who was just directed to the right lane have to merge left at the end of the wide section. But that's not such a terrible inconvenience, when you think about it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 21, 2012, 09:01:40 AM
Quote from: Steve on September 20, 2012, 11:27:18 PM
The 25-25-25-25-25 spacing on the NJ Turnpike and Chicago toll roads annoys me. Those agencies think it's an improvement for their mix of traffic, but every other freeway in the nation uses 10-30-10-30, so why can't they? (Related - agencies that use 10-20 or 15-25)
Even worse is when the NJ Turnpike does 25-20!
As you can see here: http://goo.gl/maps/iJN1h , the distance of the strip is clearly longer than the distance between strips. And if you think it's just an optical illusion, measure with a rule or a piece of paper the strip and non-strip distance.
That's the effect of restriping over the old stripes.
Something odd I've noticed in a few states: onramps with no acceleration lane, but where the lines for the gore point become dashed before they meet, effectively fudging one in. Arizona seems to be a particularly common offender (example) (https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.47995,-112.859805&spn=0.001233,0.002411&t=k&z=19). What is the logic behind this? It seems to me to encourage drivers to wait until the last minute to merge, which could be dangerous.
^ I would think the opposite: Encourage drivers that are up to speed to merge into traffic earlier than waiting for the end of the painted gore.
In Ohio, yellow lines are 4" wide, and if it's just a single dashed line, it's (theoretically) painted on the logical boundary. If it's a double yellow or a solid/dashed combination, the halves are painted so there's a 4" gap between them, again theoretically centered over the logical lane boundary. This is what I'm used to.
In Michigan, dashed lines are always centered over the logical boundary, whether alone or part of a solid/dash combo. Solid yellow lines are always painted 6" to one side of the logical boundary, making a 2" gap to the dashed line or an 8" gap to the other solid line. I get the logic behind that, but to me it looks goofy.
And then there's Franklin County, Ohio. Our Engineer's Office has decided for some reason to deviate from Ohio standard by using 5" yellow lines, with only a 3" or maybe 4" gap between them if double. This also looks odd to me, though I'm a bit used to it now.
Apparently Wisconsin always paints its single stripes to one side or the other of the pavement seams. I am uncomfortable with that idea...
Quote from: vtk on September 22, 2012, 11:44:37 AM
In Ohio, yellow lines are 4" wide, and if it's just a single dashed line, it's (theoretically) painted on the logical boundary. If it's a double yellow or a solid/dashed combination, the halves are painted so there's a 4" gap between them, again theoretically centered over the logical lane boundary. This is what I'm used to.
In Michigan, dashed lines are always centered over the logical boundary, whether alone or part of a solid/dash combo. Solid yellow lines are always painted 6" to one side of the logical boundary, making a 2" gap to the dashed line or an 8" gap to the other solid line. I get the logic behind that, but to me it looks goofy.
And then there's Franklin County, Ohio. Our Engineer's Office has decided for some reason to deviate from Ohio standard by using 5" yellow lines, with only a 3" or maybe 4" gap between them if double. This also looks odd to me, though I'm a bit used to it now.
Apparently Wisconsin always paints its single stripes to one side or the other of the pavement seams. I am uncomfortable with that idea
I like the Michigan version you describe. That way, the dashed line always marks the center, and any solid line simply means 'no passing from this side'. Just like the olden days, without the dashed white line between yellow lines.
Quote from: kphoger on September 22, 2012, 12:14:40 PM
Quote from: vtk on September 22, 2012, 11:44:37 AM
In Michigan, dashed lines are always centered over the logical boundary, whether alone or part of a solid/dash combo. Solid yellow lines are always painted 6" to one side of the logical boundary, making a 2" gap to the dashed line or an 8" gap to the other solid line. I get the logic behind that, but to me it looks goofy.
I like the Michigan version you describe. That way, the dashed line always marks the center, and any solid line simply means 'no passing from this side'. Just like the olden days, without the dashed white line between yellow lines.
I get that. I respect that. I still think it looks goofy.
Quote from: vtk on September 22, 2012, 11:44:37 AM
Apparently Wisconsin always paints its single stripes to one side or the other of the pavement seams. I am uncomfortable with that idea...
Nevada generally does the same thing. It actually makes some sense...as that can be an additional guide to where your car should be if pavement markings are worn or obscured.
Quote from: roadfro on September 22, 2012, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: vtk on September 22, 2012, 11:44:37 AM
Apparently Wisconsin always paints its single stripes to one side or the other of the pavement seams. I am uncomfortable with that idea
Nevada generally does the same thing. It actually makes some sense...as that can be an additional guide to where your car should be if pavement markings are worn or obscured.
How would placement away from the longitudinal joint lines change this? Shouldn't make a difference whether the markings are on top of or adjacent to the joint line. That's one of the main reasons for having a jointing plan when a road is reconstructed; the joints should work in concert with the pavement markings. I'm not sure about other states, but jointing plans are required as part of a WisDOT planset whenever concrete surfaces are spec'd.
The rationale I was given for how WisDOT (http://roadwaystandards.dot.wi.gov/standards/fdm/SDD/15c08.pdf#sd15c8-a) (Standard Detail link) places long-line markings is to avoid disruption/additional maintenance when joint filling occurs later in the roadway's life.
Quote from: Steve on September 20, 2012, 11:27:18 PM
The 25-25-25-25-25 spacing on the NJ Turnpike and Chicago toll roads annoys me. Those agencies think it's an improvement for their mix of traffic, but every other freeway in the nation uses 10-30-10-30, so why can't they? (Related - agencies that use 10-20 or 15-25)
If anything it actually encourages speeding, since the longer lines give the optical illusion that you are driving slower.
When CT does a new repaving project on an interstate, instead of putting epoxy down for the center broken line, they use what I call "stickers" b/c they look like it. They also come up easily and sometimes you seem them accross the road.
Why do they still use them and why don't they just put down epoxy to begin with? Other projects they use epoxy and no "stickers."
and in between epoxy remarkings, they use just regular paint and it wears away quickly, why not just remark it with epoxy!??!
Quote from: doofy103 on September 22, 2012, 04:04:48 PM
When CT does a new repaving project on an interstate, instead of putting epoxy down for the center broken line, they use what I call "stickers" b/c they look like it. They also come up easily and sometimes you seem them accross the road.
Maybe CT has a "same day" marking policy, and the "stickers" are meant to be temporary until they place the permanent markings? Occasionally around here, you'll see small one-inch tall tags stuck on the pavement to temporarily mark the lanes after a chip seal, seal coat, or mill and overlay project.
Quote from: DaBigE on September 22, 2012, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: doofy103 on September 22, 2012, 04:04:48 PM
When CT does a new repaving project on an interstate, instead of putting epoxy down for the center broken line, they use what I call "stickers" b/c they look like it. They also come up easily and sometimes you seem them accross the road.
Maybe CT has a "same day" marking policy, and the "stickers" are meant to be temporary until they place the permanent markings? Occasionally around here, you'll see small one-inch tall tags stuck on the pavement to temporarily mark the lanes after a chip seal, seal coat, or mill and overlay project.
They do have a same day policy I think, and they do use the one inch tags but the "stickers" (the best term I can think of) are permanent, b/c they are there for years after. CT DOT comes through and paints with epoxy the ones that have chipped away. Snow plows do a number on the stickers. Epoxy is usually unscathed.
I am fairly sure (but not 100% certain) that Oklahoma pavement markings are done with sidewalk chalk. They're about as durable and reflective.
Quote from: roadfro on September 22, 2012, 04:59:43 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on September 21, 2012, 08:42:02 PM
Something odd I've noticed in a few states: onramps with no acceleration lane, but where the lines for the gore point become dashed before they meet, effectively fudging one in. Arizona seems to be a particularly common offender (example) (https://maps.google.com/?ll=33.47995,-112.859805&spn=0.001233,0.002411&t=k&z=19). What is the logic behind this? It seems to me to encourage drivers to wait until the last minute to merge, which could be dangerous.
I would think the opposite: Encourage drivers that are up to speed to merge into traffic earlier than waiting for the end of the painted gore.
Well, that is not what it encouraged me to do! The source of trouble is that there is no acceleration lane at the end of the gore. If there were, this would be a non-issue. But crossing the gore to merge rather than having it be a standard lane change is, to me at least, more imposing to do since there is more space to cross to get from the ramp to the travel lane. Intuitively, I want to wait for the end of the gore point before I merge in. But maybe a lot of that is just a matter of what I'm used to. Anyone who grew up driving in Arizona care to weigh in?
Quote from: DaBigE on September 22, 2012, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: doofy103 on September 22, 2012, 04:04:48 PM
When CT does a new repaving project on an interstate, instead of putting epoxy down for the center broken line, they use what I call "stickers" b/c they look like it. They also come up easily and sometimes you seem them accross the road.
Maybe CT has a "same day" marking policy, and the "stickers" are meant to be temporary until they place the permanent markings? Occasionally around here, you'll see small one-inch tall tags stuck on the pavement to temporarily mark the lanes after a chip seal, seal coat, or mill and overlay project.
In central Texas, those "temporary" markers are sometimes left in place for weeks before they get around to painting lanes. Yes, even on I-35 I've seen this happen. The business park where I work (city maintained roads) was chip coated about 2 months ago, most of the temporary markings are now torn off and there are no lane markings anymore.
A comment from early in this thread brought up a question for me: in the "olden days" (pre-1970 or so) when it was common on two lane roads to have a continuous broken white center stripe with solid line on either or both sides, what states besides California did NOT follow this standard? California always used two adjacent solid lines, switching from white to yellow early 1960s(?).
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on November 03, 2012, 10:33:49 AM
A comment from early in this thread brought up a question for me: in the "olden days" (pre-1970 or so) when it was common on two lane roads to have a continuous broken white center stripe with solid line on either or both sides, what states besides California did NOT follow this standard? California always used two adjacent solid lines, switching from white to yellow early 1960s(?).
I don't think what you say is common, was really all that common. States have always had their own variations.
Quote from: Steve on November 03, 2012, 05:53:58 PM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on November 03, 2012, 10:33:49 AM
A comment from early in this thread brought up a question for me: in the "olden days" (pre-1970 or so) when it was common on two lane roads to have a continuous broken white center stripe with solid line on either or both sides, what states besides California did NOT follow this standard? California always used two adjacent solid lines, switching from white to yellow early 1960s(?).
I don't think what you say is common, was really all that common. States have always had their own variations.
The 1948 and 1961 MUTCDs specified either type of double-no passing line (solid/solid or solid/dashed/solid). The change between those versions was allowing white or yellow for solid lines separating opposing directions of traffic in 1948 and specifying yellow for the solid line in 1961. The 1971 update limited states to the current 2-line system as well as changing all lines separating opposing lanes of traffic to yellow.
The problem with growing up in a geographically large state, even with parents who traveled a lot, was not seeing a lot of what other states did. In the west, the bordering states to California all had the continous dashed line, as well as any other states beyond that I remember traveling to. We never ventured beyond the west, so I wouldn't have seen what southern states were doing.
And, was the federal funding hammer significant enough that states had to adhere to the MUTCD back then, or as Steve suggests were there other variations?
Oh, MUTCD compliance took a long time. Around here, most states would have used single broken or solid white lines. A couple had double whites, and there may have even been some yellow use thrown in. The MUTCD took a long time to really be a national standard, especially for anything other than signs.
Does anyone know about when states like PA switched from NJ Turnpike-style long dotted lines to currently normal shorter ones? It was sometime in or after the 70's, I know...
https://maps.app.goo.gl/fNYg5m5sz9Tz49xV6
Not so much poor as ignorance. Having the through road to the right drop to one lane so the left lane can default into the ramp on the left and then immediately resume two lanes beyond the apex.