From SF Gate:
Frustrated visitors sue National Park Service over cashless policies QuoteThree people sued the National Park Service earlier this month for its policy not to accept cash payments at a growing number of locations.
Esther van der Werf of Ojai, California, Toby Stover of High Falls, New York, and Elizabeth Dasburg of Darien, Georgia, filed their lawsuit on March 6 after being prevented from paying in cash at various national parks, monuments and historic sites around the country. Citing a U.S. code that states U.S. currency is legal tender for all public charges, the lawsuit alleges that the park service's cashless policy is in violation of federal law.
The park service instituted cashless policies at approximately 29 locations, according to the lawsuit. The plaintiffs said cash payments were refused at sites in Arizona, New York and Georgia.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ud)
Quotedenied entry
Not a debt. Legal tender laws don't apply.
I can't even recall the last time I used cash at a NPS managed site. Probably not helped that California's state park system and stuff like the BLM are still big on pay envelopes. Usually I carry about $40 in loose change to deal with unexpected pay envelope scenarios.
"Legal tender" laws only cover paying a debt, not paying for goods or a service. The feds can totally enforce cashless policies. Is it inequitable, as poor people sometimes lack banks? Definitely. Do I endorse not having a cash option? Nope, even though I never pay in cash. But I get why places do it and it is totally legal.
I will note that I prefer card only over cash only when it comes to paying park fees. I hate using an iron ranger, especially when the fee is an amount that requires using multiple bills, as I rarely carry stacks of $1s and $5s and there is no way to obtain change. I will also note that many "card only" NPS sites have somewhere third party where you can pay cash for admission. For example, at Death Valley, third-party visitor centers and concessionaires accept cash to pay the entry fee, even if none of the NPS payment machines take cash.
I hope she wins. The policy is ridiculous and stupid.
Quote from: Brandon on March 21, 2024, 09:13:09 PM
I hope she wins. The policy is ridiculous and stupid.
Unfortunately, she won't. A debt is defined as receiving the item or service before paying with no way to back out. This is not a debt, as you're not forced to pay anything. They can just turn you away.
Massachusetts has a law unrelated to the legal tender law saying businesses must accept cash, but I don't believe any of these lawsuits are taking place there.
Quote from: 1 on March 21, 2024, 09:15:56 PM
Massachusetts has a law unrelated to the legal tender law saying businesses must accept cash, but I don't believe any of these lawsuits are taking place there.
That law most likely doesn't apply to national parks and other Federal facilities.
Cash is supposed to be legal tender.
I can show people a dollar bill sometime that says that it's legal tender.
Quote from: Brandon on March 21, 2024, 09:13:09 PM
I hope she wins. The policy is ridiculous and stupid.
It's not. It costs the NPS more to process and handle cash than what they bring in.
From National Park Service (posted April, 2023):
Death Valley National Park to move to cashless fee collection starting June 1, 2023QuoteLast year the park collected $22,000 in cash, which cost over $40,000 to process. Cash handling costs include an armored car contract to transport cash and park rangers' time counting money and processing paperwork.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.nps.gov/deva/learn/news/cashless.htm)
If you look at the map of Death Valley, it's pretty remote with only two gas stations (Furnace Creek and Stovepipe Wells) providing fuel at wallet-emptying prices because of the distance the fuel trucks have to travel and how isolated the area is. Same with the armor trucks.
Quote from: bandit957 on March 21, 2024, 10:47:05 PM
Cash is supposed to be legal tender.
I can show people a dollar bill sometime that says that it's legal tender.
"Legal tender
for all debts." If there's no debt, someone else is free to impose conditions—for example, a sign on the restaurant door very clearly says "No Cash" and the menu echoes that. You have no debt to them when you see that sign, so you can't demand that they accept your cash, and if you then choose to eat there, you've chosen to accept their payment condition that you not use cash.
With that said, I recall reading recently that DC had passed a new law requiring businesses to accept cash. Yet I know (because I go there regularly) that none of the concession or merchandise stands at Verizon Center accepts it, and the various e-mails I receive from the Capitals prior to games emphasize that the arena is a cashless operation (though most of the bartenders have tip cups if you want to tip in cash). I certainly see the benefit in terms of keeping the lines moving more quickly, but it makes me wonder whether the new DC law has an exemption for sports venues.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2024, 01:44:33 PMYet I know (because I go there regularly) that none of the concession or merchandise stands at Verizon Center accepts it, and the various e-mails I receive from the Capitals prior to games emphasize that the arena is a cashless operation (though most of the bartenders have tip cups if you want to tip in cash).
Cashless sports venues here tend to have a little kiosk machine to convert cash to a prepaid debit card, such as these ones (https://www.lumenfield.com/plan-your-visit-stadium-guide/cashless) at Lumen Field. Are they not available there?
Quote from: Bruce on March 22, 2024, 01:56:19 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2024, 01:44:33 PMYet I know (because I go there regularly) that none of the concession or merchandise stands at Verizon Center accepts it, and the various e-mails I receive from the Capitals prior to games emphasize that the arena is a cashless operation (though most of the bartenders have tip cups if you want to tip in cash).
Cashless sports venues here tend to have a little kiosk machine to convert cash to a prepaid debit card, such as these ones (https://www.lumenfield.com/plan-your-visit-stadium-guide/cashless) at Lumen Field. Are they not available there?
I've never paid any attention to find out because I wouldn't need such a card (just like I didn't notice whether there were any such kiosks at Climate Pledge Arena when I went to a game there in November). If I remember, I'll keep my eyes peeled when we go to this Sunday's game.
I did do a Google search for the DC law and it appears, based on the way it's written, that stadium concession stands probably don't fall within the definition of "retailer" used in that particular provision.
Quote from: bandit957 on March 21, 2024, 10:47:05 PM
Cash is supposed to be legal tender.
I can show people a dollar bill sometime that says that it's legal tender.
"Legal tender" is a form of currency that the law requires to be recognized as acceptable payment for a monetary debt. The intent is that a debtor paying with legal tender can't be accused of fraud. It doesn't on its own mean that a debtee is required to accept every kind of legal tender (for example, cash). As noted, some states have laws requiring that businesses accept cash, but that is a completely separate matter.
I know I've asked before, but can anyone provide a link to an actual court case in which it was determined that this common "must have already received services" understanding of legal tender has been ruled on?
I don't think they'll win on the "legal tender" argument, but I don't like the cashless policy either. A significant minority of people in the United States have no credit or debit card. The Park Service exists to serve all the people, and should not be arbitrarily excluding the poorest.
Quote from: Bruce on March 22, 2024, 01:56:19 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2024, 01:44:33 PMYet I know (because I go there regularly) that none of the concession or merchandise stands at Verizon Center accepts it, and the various e-mails I receive from the Capitals prior to games emphasize that the arena is a cashless operation (though most of the bartenders have tip cups if you want to tip in cash).
Cashless sports venues here tend to have a little kiosk machine to convert cash to a prepaid debit card, such as these ones (https://www.lumenfield.com/plan-your-visit-stadium-guide/cashless) at Lumen Field. Are they not available there?
I've never used one of these. My assumption is that there is a fee, so you're only getting 97-98% of your value. People shouldn't be penalized for not possessing their own card.
That said, I don't think the case has legal merits.
Quote from: kkt on March 22, 2024, 05:45:03 PM
I don't think they'll win on the "legal tender" argument, but I don't like the cashless policy either. A significant minority of people in the United States have no credit or debit card. The Park Service exists to serve all the people, and should not be arbitrarily excluding the poorest.
Since most national parks cost a pretty penny to get to and/or stay in, the poorest are already excluded.
Quote from: Rothman on March 22, 2024, 06:28:37 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 22, 2024, 05:45:03 PM
I don't think they'll win on the "legal tender" argument, but I don't like the cashless policy either. A significant minority of people in the United States have no credit or debit card. The Park Service exists to serve all the people, and should not be arbitrarily excluding the poorest.
Since most national parks cost a pretty penny to get to and/or stay in, the poorest are already excluded.
There are a few free days a year, but want to buy a drink or a snack they can't do that either.
First world problems.
Regarding low-income individuals, how many NPS sites that charge are near significant population centers? Cuyahoga Valley is the only one I can think of right next to a city, and it is free. Much of the cost of visiting a NPS site is getting there and food/lodging because they're so remote. I dislike the equity impact, but it's not like the NPS gets enough funding to support itself without user fees.
Allegedly, opposition to entry fees (equity grounds or otherwise) historically came from higher-income individuals. Low-income survey respondents were apparently more willing to accept fees. http://npshistory.com/publications/visitor-fees/fees5.htm
Quote from: kkt on March 22, 2024, 08:09:04 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 22, 2024, 06:28:37 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 22, 2024, 05:45:03 PM
I don't think they'll win on the "legal tender" argument, but I don't like the cashless policy either. A significant minority of people in the United States have no credit or debit card. The Park Service exists to serve all the people, and should not be arbitrarily excluding the poorest.
Since most national parks cost a pretty penny to get to and/or stay in, the poorest are already excluded.
There are a few free days a year, but want to buy a drink or a snack they can't do that either.
But...you still have to get there...
Quote from: ZLoth on March 22, 2024, 01:42:10 PM
From National Park Service (posted April, 2023):
Death Valley National Park to move to cashless fee collection starting June 1, 2023QuoteLast year the park collected $22,000 in cash, which cost over $40,000 to process. Cash handling costs include an armored car contract to transport cash and park rangers' time counting money and processing paperwork.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.nps.gov/deva/learn/news/cashless.htm)
If you look at the map of Death Valley, it's pretty remote with only two gas stations (Furnace Creek and Stovepipe Wells) providing fuel at wallet-emptying prices because of the distance the fuel trucks have to travel and how isolated the area is. Same with the armor trucks.
$22,000 divided by 365 days is $60 a day. If you call an armored truck for sixty bucks, you're either a wuss or an idiot.
Back in my delinquent early 20"s, I didn't have a bank account. It's easy enough to buy a Visa Gift Card for the times you need to use something other than cash.
We must hear more about these "delinquent 20's" of Jayhawk's.
Quote from: kphoger on March 22, 2024, 04:08:56 PM
I know I've asked before, but can anyone provide a link to an actual court case in which it was determined that this common "must have already received services" understanding of legal tender has been ruled on?
It goes back to English common law at least as early as Elizabeth I. Various American case law from the 1800s essentially presumes that the meaning of "legal tender" is understood. With that said, there are some cases, also mainly from the mid-1800s, that talk about the difference between a general promise to pay a particular amount versus a promise to pay a particular form of payment. The former is a debt and you can discharge it in various ways—say, if I owe you $10, I can give you a $10 bill or two $5s and I've discharged it. The latter scenario is not, according to the case law, a "debt" in the same sense. Suppose we agree that I am to pay you $10 in $2 bills. That's not a debt so much as it as an agreement to deliver a specific item (or set of items)—paying you via $10 bill doesn't satisfy my obligation regardless of whether it's "legal tender" because we contracted for something else—though of course you could excuse my non-performance and accept the $10 bill if you decided you needed the money (say, you were a real estate developer who said he needed every scrap of money he could get to post an appeal bond). The same would obviously be the case if, say, we agreed I were to pay you in Chick-Fil-A gift cards or some such.
So, under the same principle, if a store says "no cash" and offers to sell you widgets for some amount conditioned on your paying a particular amount in a form other than cash, and you accept the widgets, it's a scenario similar to the second one above. You've committed to paying some amount in a form other than cash.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 23, 2024, 05:46:20 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on March 22, 2024, 01:42:10 PM
From National Park Service (posted April, 2023):
Death Valley National Park to move to cashless fee collection starting June 1, 2023QuoteLast year the park collected $22,000 in cash, which cost over $40,000 to process. Cash handling costs include an armored car contract to transport cash and park rangers' time counting money and processing paperwork.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.nps.gov/deva/learn/news/cashless.htm)
If you look at the map of Death Valley, it's pretty remote with only two gas stations (Furnace Creek and Stovepipe Wells) providing fuel at wallet-emptying prices because of the distance the fuel trucks have to travel and how isolated the area is. Same with the armor trucks.
$22,000 divided by 365 days is $60 a day. If you call an armored truck for sixty bucks, you're either a wuss or an idiot.
I'm pretty sure it's a Federal law or at least a regulation that cash from Federal entities has to travel by armored truck regardless of amount. I know the cash we deal with does.
That said, I don't see why they'd need to run a truck every day for that small of an amount. They could easily wait until they have $1000 or so.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on March 23, 2024, 11:16:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 23, 2024, 05:46:20 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on March 22, 2024, 01:42:10 PM
From National Park Service (posted April, 2023):
Death Valley National Park to move to cashless fee collection starting June 1, 2023QuoteLast year the park collected $22,000 in cash, which cost over $40,000 to process. Cash handling costs include an armored car contract to transport cash and park rangers' time counting money and processing paperwork.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://www.nps.gov/deva/learn/news/cashless.htm)
If you look at the map of Death Valley, it's pretty remote with only two gas stations (Furnace Creek and Stovepipe Wells) providing fuel at wallet-emptying prices because of the distance the fuel trucks have to travel and how isolated the area is. Same with the armor trucks.
$22,000 divided by 365 days is $60 a day. If you call an armored truck for sixty bucks, you're either a wuss or an idiot.
I'm pretty sure it's a Federal law or at least a regulation that cash from Federal entities has to travel by armored truck regardless of amount. I know the cash we deal with does.
That said, I don't see why they'd need to run a truck every day for that small of an amount. They could easily wait until they have $1000 or so.
It's probably a contracted service. And the companies that offer such services are those with armored trucks.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on March 23, 2024, 11:16:11 AMI'm pretty sure it's a Federal law or at least a regulation that cash from Federal entities has to travel by armored truck regardless of amount. I know the cash we deal with does.
That said, I don't see why they'd need to run a truck every day for that small of an amount. They could easily wait until they have $1000 or so.
Maybe, but part of the costs has to assume the travel time for that armored truck to travel. Lets assume, for example, that the truck has to travel from Las Vegas, NV to Furnace Creek, CA which is within Death Valley National Park. That's a 123-141 mile journey each way, or a just-over two hour travel time
in each direction. There are probably very customers between those two points to reduce the cost, not to mention that you have to have a full tank of fuel for the journey.
There is no
federal law that requires businesses to accept cash (ref: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm) , however the states of Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Massachusetts, Montana, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Tennessee as well as the cities of San Francisco CA, New York City NY, and Philadelphia PA all prohibit cashless businesses (ref: https://www.atmia.com/connections/regions/united-states-americas/). The problem is that if you are transacting in cash, you are at a risk for theft from either criminal or a less than dishonest employee. Most employee instructions are, when they are held up, is to just give them the cash, your life isn't worth it. But, let the business make that decision and face the consequences of choosing the payment method. Some businesses, such as non-consensual towing, may elect to
only accept cash because other transactions, especially credit card, can be disputed. But, then again, we are talking about the National Parks Service which is governmental entity, not a private business.
How much cash do you carry in your wallet? Unless you are one of those Dave Ramsey types, the answer is probably "not much". I just checked my wallet, and it has two tens and four singles in there. I prefer to pay by credit or debit card. How much does it cost to open up a checking account? Usually, it's between $25 to $100, plus some identity checks. However, if you have made some bad decisions such as writing rubber checks, then you probably are showing up on a ChexSystems report that shows you to be at a risk. If, however, you are choosing to keep "off the system", then prepare to pay the price and feel the inconvience. Don't want to open up a toll account and use electronic toll collection? Prepare for that 100% surcharge for toll-by-plate.
Quote from: ZLoth on March 23, 2024, 12:35:44 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on March 23, 2024, 11:16:11 AMI'm pretty sure it's a Federal law or at least a regulation that cash from Federal entities has to travel by armored truck regardless of amount. I know the cash we deal with does.
That said, I don't see why they'd need to run a truck every day for that small of an amount. They could easily wait until they have $1000 or so.
Maybe, but part of the costs has to assume the travel time for that armored truck to travel. Lets assume, for example, that the truck has to travel from Las Vegas, NV to Furnace Creek, CA which is within Death Valley National Park. That's a 123-141 mile journey each way, or a just-over two hour travel time in each direction. There are probably very customers between those two points to reduce the cost, not to mention that you have to have a full tank of fuel for the journey.
There is no federal law that requires businesses to accept cash (ref: https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm) , however the states of Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Massachusetts, Montana, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Tennessee as well as the cities of San Francisco CA, New York City NY, and Philadelphia PA all prohibit cashless businesses (ref: https://www.atmia.com/connections/regions/united-states-americas/). The problem is that if you are transacting in cash, you are at a risk for theft from either criminal or a less than dishonest employee. Most employee instructions are, when they are held up, is to just give them the cash, your life isn't worth it. But, let the business make that decision and face the consequences of choosing the payment method. Some businesses, such as non-consensual towing, may elect to only accept cash because other transactions, especially credit card, can be disputed. But, then again, we are talking about the National Parks Service which is governmental entity, not a private business.
How much cash do you carry in your wallet? Unless you are one of those Dave Ramsey types, the answer is probably "not much". I just checked my wallet, and it has two tens and four singles in there. I prefer to pay by credit or debit card. How much does it cost to open up a checking account? Usually, it's between $25 to $100, plus some identity checks. However, if you have made some bad decisions such as writing rubber checks, then you probably are showing up on a ChexSystems report that shows you to be at a risk. If, however, you are choosing to keep "off the system", then prepare to pay the price and feel the inconvience. Don't want to open up a toll account and use electronic toll collection? Prepare for that 100% surcharge for toll-by-plate.
And you should always love your big brother for helping you with all those things.
I wonder if blind customers are able to eat for free in cashless establishments, since they can't read the sign that says no cash.
Quote from: Rothman on March 23, 2024, 10:24:30 AM
We must hear more about these "delinquent 20's" of Jayhawk's.
Long story short. Was waiting tables/bartending. I thought it was more fun to go out drinking, out with girls, travelling the world, etc. than paying taxes, paying rent, etc. Got evicted and they were looking for some back rent and so I closed my bank account so as not to have an account to pull cash from. Not my proudest moment, but now my credit score is in the 800's so I don't mind telling my cautionary tales. :bigass:
As more and more places go cashless, perhaps it's time to revisit currency reform.
The US wastes a lot of money producing currency it doesn't need.
Due to inflation, one cent pieces and one dollar bills should have already been obsolete.
Pennies can be eliminated by rounding transactions to the nearest five cents. Canada did this in 2012.
Dollar bills can just be eliminated by making the dollar coin the standard. Production of $2 bills can also be increased to help compensate.
Additionally, dimes, half dollars, $10 bills and $50 bills aren't really necessary.
You can make any combination from $0.05 to $99.95 by having 4x$20, 3x$5, 2x$2, 1x$1, 3x$0.25 and 4x$0.05, which is 9 bills and 8 coins. Not an undue burden for anybody to carry.
Weren't they talking about making pennies out of tin instead of copper to save money?
Canada switched their coins to steel. This change occurred for more than just the penny, and it happened before the penny was eliminated.
Aluminum is also an option, similar to the 1 yen coin. However, I would support getting rid of the penny entirely and making the nickel aluminum.
Quote from: bandit957 on March 26, 2024, 03:52:19 PMWeren't they talking about making pennies out of tin instead of copper to save money?
The US one-cent coin has been made of 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper since 1982.
Regarding currency reform more generally, I like the idea of getting rid of the $1 bill, though I can't help but wonder how much of an obstacle the vending machine industry presents, given how much they invested in installing those dollar-bill acceptors. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a vending machine that accepts $2s, though certainly I've encountered some that accept $5s.
Most vending machines accept $1 coins. Eliminating a denomination wouldn't cause a problem. It's adding a new one that would, e.g. a $2 coin or making a newer 50¢ coin design not huge.
In fact, the alloy of the current $1 coin was specifically chosen so that it would be accepted in a machine looking for Susan B. Anthony dollars.
Does cash only at National Parks also include that machine they all have in the visitors center that squishes a penny into souvenir? :sombrero:
Quote from: triplemultiplex on March 26, 2024, 04:37:07 PMDoes cash only at National Parks also include that machine they all have in the visitors center that squishes a penny into souvenir? :sombrero:
I have some cancelled credit cards I could use instead.
Quote from: Rothman on March 23, 2024, 10:24:30 AMWe must hear more about these "delinquent 20's" of Jayhawk's.
I hope it involves a couple animals, drunkenness and a stripper named Candy. Those are the fun stories.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on March 26, 2024, 03:43:11 PMAdditionally, dimes, half dollars, $10 bills and $50 bills aren't really necessary.
You can make any combination from $0.05 to $99.95 by having 4x$20, 3x$5, 2x$2, 1x$1, 3x$0.25 and 4x$0.05, which is 9 bills and 8 coins. Not an undue burden for anybody to carry.
The last casino I worked for decided they didn't need dimes or $10s. It was a fucking mess. You need three rolls of nickels to make up for one roll of dimes, which means that you either need to find a place to keep all those nickels, or else have the window close every 10-20 customers while you get more nickels. Meanwhile the production of the $5 is low enough that the bills get beat all to hell in circulation without being replaced at a high enough rate, so finding a $5 bill that could actually be used in a slot machine was a challenge.
I figured out the machine we got our change out of would, despite not being stocked with dimes and not dispensing any dimes in the starting bank, return any dimes that had been deposited by previous cashiers. And there were usually enough people cashing in random mixed change that there was at least $5 worth of dimes available at the start of my shift. So I would get my starting bank, get signed into the window, and then pull out dimes. I couldn't do that with the $10s because any previously-deposited $10s got kicked into the machine's overflow box, where they were only accessible to someone with a key.
I do agree that the $50 is kind of a useless denomination. It's large enough that it gets the same scrutiny and acceptance problems (businesses not wanting to keep enough change to break it) that the $100 does, while not actually being large enough to justify the hassle of dealing with it.
One thing about the current generation of US paper currency is that the addition of distinct color to the different bills has helped quite a bit when you do use a $50. Back when the Treasury started redesigning them in the 1990s, introducing the so-called "large portrait notes," the $20 and the $50 apparently looked similar enough at a quick glance—see below—that several times I encountered cashiers trying to give me change based on a $20 when I used a $50 (which caused me to start saying, "That's out of $50" whenever I used a $50). That has never happened to me with the current-generation currency. (Then you had the time prior to the mid-1990s redesign when we were getting ready to leave on a family vacation and my father sent me to McDonald's to buy us all breakfast and gave me a $50. The cashier didn't think it was real money and I had to insist, adamantly and very vocally, that she call the manager.)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/US_%2420_Series_1996_Obverse.jpg/200px-US_%2420_Series_1996_Obverse.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/US_%2450_Series_1996_Obverse.jpg/200px-US_%2450_Series_1996_Obverse.jpg)
My grocery store workplace in 2019 had a customer pay for about $140-160 worth of food with an old (uncolored) $20 and three regular $20s. Both the customer and the cashier thought the uncolored $20 was a $100 (since $100s last long enough that a greater percentage of $100s are old-style compared to $20s). It was accepted, and only after the customer was gone did the cashier realize he wasn't given enough money.
I've occasionally used a new-style $50 bill at a McDonald's drive-through. Manager got called to check that the bill was valid, but that process only added a few seconds to my order.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2024, 04:04:21 PMRegarding currency reform more generally, I like the idea of getting rid of the $1 bill, though I can't help but wonder how much of an obstacle the vending machine industry presents, given how much they invested in installing those dollar-bill acceptors. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a vending machine that accepts $2s, though certainly I've encountered some that accept $5s.
I'm kinda surprised at the life span of a $1 bill per https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm . I thought it would be measured in months rather than 6.6 years. Having said that, while coins are more expensive than bills to produce, they also last much longer (30 years and longer).
Brings to mind wheresgeorge.com, which is apparently still around and quite active.
Quote from: bandit957 on March 26, 2024, 03:52:19 PMWeren't they talking about making pennies out of tin instead of copper to save money?
Pennies haven't been made out of copper for 40 years. In 1982 they switched to zinc center with copper plating. Cut one in half with bolt cutters if you want. Most of the remaining copper pennies disappeared within a year or two - forcing more zinc pennies to be minted.
They should have discontinued pennies in 1982.
Quote from: ZLoth on March 28, 2024, 10:45:34 AMHaving said that, while coins are more expensive than bills to produce, they also last much longer (30 years and longer).
Can confirm. While the original Canadian loonie was released in 1987, I can still find original examples in my change in the rare occasion I get cash. Meanwhile, bills from the Canadian Journey series (2001-2011, before the introduction of plastic bills) pretty much disappeared from circulation now.
Quote from: ZLoth on March 28, 2024, 10:45:34 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2024, 04:04:21 PMRegarding currency reform more generally, I like the idea of getting rid of the $1 bill, though I can't help but wonder how much of an obstacle the vending machine industry presents, given how much they invested in installing those dollar-bill acceptors. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a vending machine that accepts $2s, though certainly I've encountered some that accept $5s.
I'm kinda surprised at the life span of a $1 bill per https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm . I thought it would be measured in months rather than 6.6 years. Having said that, while coins are more expensive than bills to produce, they also last much longer (30 years and longer).
The lifespan of a $1 bill
was months back in the 90s, but two things happened:
1) people use less cash now, so it wears out less quickly, and
2) Someone at the Fed realized that the scanners that they use to detect when bills are damaged were sending all bills that were fed into the machine upside down to the shred pile, since they only had the good bill image to compare to in one orientation. Oops!
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 02:10:35 AMQuote from: ZLoth on March 28, 2024, 10:45:34 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2024, 04:04:21 PMRegarding currency reform more generally, I like the idea of getting rid of the $1 bill, though I can't help but wonder how much of an obstacle the vending machine industry presents, given how much they invested in installing those dollar-bill acceptors. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a vending machine that accepts $2s, though certainly I've encountered some that accept $5s.
I'm kinda surprised at the life span of a $1 bill per https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm . I thought it would be measured in months rather than 6.6 years. Having said that, while coins are more expensive than bills to produce, they also last much longer (30 years and longer).
The lifespan of a $1 bill was months back in the 90s, but two things happened:
1) people use less cash now, so it wears out less quickly, and
2) Someone at the Fed realized that the scanners that they use to detect when bills are damaged were sending all bills that were fed into the machine upside down to the shred pile, since they only had the good bill image to compare to in one orientation. Oops!
And even when cash
is used, $1 ain't gonna be used for much more than just making-up the amount the larger bills don't already cover and/or vending machines.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on March 29, 2024, 03:44:45 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 02:10:35 AMQuote from: ZLoth on March 28, 2024, 10:45:34 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2024, 04:04:21 PMRegarding currency reform more generally, I like the idea of getting rid of the $1 bill, though I can't help but wonder how much of an obstacle the vending machine industry presents, given how much they invested in installing those dollar-bill acceptors. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a vending machine that accepts $2s, though certainly I've encountered some that accept $5s.
I'm kinda surprised at the life span of a $1 bill per https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm . I thought it would be measured in months rather than 6.6 years. Having said that, while coins are more expensive than bills to produce, they also last much longer (30 years and longer).
The lifespan of a $1 bill was months back in the 90s, but two things happened:
1) people use less cash now, so it wears out less quickly, and
2) Someone at the Fed realized that the scanners that they use to detect when bills are damaged were sending all bills that were fed into the machine upside down to the shred pile, since they only had the good bill image to compare to in one orientation. Oops!
And even when cash is used, $1 ain't gonna be used for much more than just making-up the amount the larger bills don't already cover and/or vending machines.
$1s are still going to be the most-used, though, because they're the only bill that has a quasi-legitimate reason to have 4 in the same transaction. (This assumes you're like 99% of the population that pretends $2 bills don't exist, of course.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 06:29:25 AM$1s are still going to be the most-used, though, because they're the only bill that has a quasi-legitimate reason to have 4 in the same transaction. (This assumes you're like 99% of the population that pretends $2 bills don't exist, of course.)
You never bought a car for cash, do you?
Quote from: kalvado on March 29, 2024, 06:56:24 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 06:29:25 AM$1s are still going to be the most-used, though, because they're the only bill that has a quasi-legitimate reason to have 4 in the same transaction. (This assumes you're like 99% of the population that pretends $2 bills don't exist, of course.)
You never bought a car for cash, do you?
I
really hope you aren't one of those people who pays unwanted large bills (like property taxes or parking/traffic tickets) in just dollar bills or pennies. Those type of people are the worse because all it's harming is the clerks/cashiers who actually handle the money and pay
absolutely no role in the decision of either setting your tax rate or receiving the ticket in the first place.
Cashless - I don't care. I carry more cash than I should, because I don't want to be caught short, but I only pay cash to this one diner that is really old fashioned, and which (illegally) charges a swipe fee. I rack up the American Airlines points and travel for free.
Currency reform - The reason the US still produces the one dollar bill is political. The paper comes from a very powerful senator's state, and the company that makes it is in a triple featherbed union. Obviously, we should mimic Canada with a one dollar coin and a two dollar coin, with the lowest bill being a five. I don't care about the penny, yes I get that it isn't worth much anymore, but so what? They are just chits being traded back and forth, no real costs as long as they are used and reused properly.
Lawsuit - Like most such suits, these people are looking to get paid. It is predatory litigation. The SCOTUS has a shot at slapping down predatory litigators last year, but took a called strike.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 29, 2024, 10:07:49 AMCurrency reform - The reason the US still produces the one dollar bill is political. The paper comes from a very powerful senator's state, and the company that makes it is in a triple featherbed union. Obviously, we should mimic Canada with a one dollar coin and a two dollar coin, with the lowest bill being a five.
I don't think they would complain if the $1 became a coin and they ramped up production of $2 bills to compensate. (I would still prefer a $2 coin.)
Quote from: SP Cook on March 29, 2024, 10:07:49 AMI don't care about the penny, yes I get that it isn't worth much anymore, but so what? They are just chits being traded back and forth, no real costs as long as they are used and reused properly.
I've calculated that for retail, e.g. grocery stores, once prices are double what they are now (which will happen in most of our lifetimes), it will save companies money to round up change back to the nearest 5¢, losing the company 1-4¢ per transaction but saving a few seconds per customer.
Eliminating the penny also gives the drawers another coin slot to be used for the $1 coin. Similarly, pennies take up wallet space that could be used for a commonly used $1 coin.
And no longer producing pennies saves the government money.
Quote from: SP Cook on March 29, 2024, 10:07:49 AMCurrency reform - The reason the US still produces the one dollar bill is political. The paper comes from a very powerful senator's state, and the company that makes it is in a triple featherbed union.
*citation needed*
US "paper" currency is 75% cotton and 25% linen.
https://www.uscurrency.gov/about-us/currency-facts
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 10:29:12 AM*citation needed*
I've gotten into enough trouble with the mods, so I attempted to couch my statement in a non-judgmental way, and invite you to do your own research. I understand there is a standard, perhaps a double standard, here for politics and thus try to go along to get along.
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 10:29:12 AMQuote from: SP Cook on March 29, 2024, 10:07:49 AMCurrency reform - The reason the US still produces the one dollar bill is political. The paper comes from a very powerful senator's state, and the company that makes it is in a triple featherbed union.
*citation needed*
Somehow I can't find a single citation that says both things even after a Google search, but I can find things that say one or the other:
1. The Crane Paper company from western Massachusetts supplies the paper used for paper currency.
2. There is a law in place preventing modifying the design of the $1 bill.
Here is a page from the Crane Paper company saying they fought against replacement of the bill with a coin:
https://kglobal.com/work/crane-paper-company
Some people oppose eliminating the $1 bill out of concern that a $1 coin is hard to use for tips at a strip club. (Which invariably leads to jokes about using the "coin slot.")
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 06:29:25 AMQuote from: freebrickproductions on March 29, 2024, 03:44:45 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 02:10:35 AMQuote from: ZLoth on March 28, 2024, 10:45:34 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 26, 2024, 04:04:21 PMRegarding currency reform more generally, I like the idea of getting rid of the $1 bill, though I can't help but wonder how much of an obstacle the vending machine industry presents, given how much they invested in installing those dollar-bill acceptors. I'm not sure I've ever encountered a vending machine that accepts $2s, though certainly I've encountered some that accept $5s.
I'm kinda surprised at the life span of a $1 bill per https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm . I thought it would be measured in months rather than 6.6 years. Having said that, while coins are more expensive than bills to produce, they also last much longer (30 years and longer).
The lifespan of a $1 bill was months back in the 90s, but two things happened:
1) people use less cash now, so it wears out less quickly, and
2) Someone at the Fed realized that the scanners that they use to detect when bills are damaged were sending all bills that were fed into the machine upside down to the shred pile, since they only had the good bill image to compare to in one orientation. Oops!
And even when cash is used, $1 ain't gonna be used for much more than just making-up the amount the larger bills don't already cover and/or vending machines.
$1s are still going to be the most-used, though, because they're the only bill that has a quasi-legitimate reason to have 4 in the same transaction. (This assumes you're like 99% of the population that pretends $2 bills don't exist, of course.)
Or we could ditch $10s and $50s and then all of the bills have legitimate reasons for four (or in the case of $5, three) in the same transaction.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2024, 10:46:22 AMSome people oppose eliminating the $1 bill out of concern that a $1 coin is hard to use for tips at a strip club. (Which invariably leads to jokes about using the "coin slot.")
How do they do it in Canada?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 29, 2024, 10:48:04 AMOr we could ditch $10s and $50s and then all of the bills have legitimate reasons for four (or in the case of $5, three) in the same transaction.
What bothers me is that the system is crazy adhoc inconsistent. We have a 25¢ coin, but a 20$ bill, and so on. The euro people, who have everything 1, 2, and 5, I think are on the right track there.
Quote from: ZLoth on March 29, 2024, 09:48:00 AMI really hope you aren't one of those people who pays unwanted large bills (like property taxes or parking/traffic tickets) in just dollar bills or pennies. Those type of people are the worse because all it's harming is the clerks/cashiers who actually handle the money and pay absolutely no role in the decision of either setting your tax rate or receiving the ticket in the first place.
One of my college classmates once paid her tuition in quarters. It was an expensive private university (for her -- I received a lot of financial aid), so there were lots of quarters.
It was all a stunt, to get her face in the student newspaper. The bursar did not voice any objections. I hope most of the quarters (other than a few needed for the photo shoot) never left their paper rolls, so it'd be easier to send them back to the bank.
But trying to pay a big bill with pennies will backfire. IIRC, there's a law providing that nobody has to accept more than 50 pennies in a single transaction. If you're going to be a jerk about it, pay in nickels (five nickels are much heavier than one quarter).
Quote from: Big John on March 29, 2024, 11:06:43 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2024, 10:46:22 AMSome people oppose eliminating the $1 bill out of concern that a $1 coin is hard to use for tips at a strip club. (Which invariably leads to jokes about using the "coin slot.")
How do they do it in Canada?
I have no idea. Never patronized such an establishment.
Quote from: ZLoth on March 29, 2024, 09:48:00 AMQuote from: kalvado on March 29, 2024, 06:56:24 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 06:29:25 AM$1s are still going to be the most-used, though, because they're the only bill that has a quasi-legitimate reason to have 4 in the same transaction. (This assumes you're like 99% of the population that pretends $2 bills don't exist, of course.)
You never bought a car for cash, do you?
I really hope you aren't one of those people who pays unwanted large bills (like property taxes or parking/traffic tickets) in just dollar bills or pennies. Those type of people are the worse because all it's harming is the clerks/cashiers who actually handle the money and pay absolutely no role in the decision of either setting your tax rate or receiving the ticket in the first place.
If you tried that at a car dealer, they'd probably tell you to deposit it in a bank and then get a cashier's check for the amount or turn down the sale. Risk of miscounting large amounts of cash, risk that's ill-gotten gains, the dealer would want a bank to take those risks not them.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2024, 10:46:22 AMSome people oppose eliminating the $1 bill out of concern that a $1 coin is hard to use for tips at a strip club. (Which invariably leads to jokes about using the "coin slot.")
$1 isn't much of a tip!
Quote from: kkt on March 29, 2024, 12:12:59 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2024, 10:46:22 AMSome people oppose eliminating the $1 bill out of concern that a $1 coin is hard to use for tips at a strip club. (Which invariably leads to jokes about using the "coin slot.")
$1 isn't much of a tip!
I've wondered about that. The last time I was in a strip club was circa 2002. What is the proper tipping amount nowadays at a modern strip club? Are dudes handing out $5 bills or something?
Quote from: kkt on March 29, 2024, 12:09:08 PMQuote from: ZLoth on March 29, 2024, 09:48:00 AMQuote from: kalvado on March 29, 2024, 06:56:24 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 06:29:25 AM$1s are still going to be the most-used, though, because they're the only bill that has a quasi-legitimate reason to have 4 in the same transaction. (This assumes you're like 99% of the population that pretends $2 bills don't exist, of course.)
You never bought a car for cash, do you?
I really hope you aren't one of those people who pays unwanted large bills (like property taxes or parking/traffic tickets) in just dollar bills or pennies. Those type of people are the worse because all it's harming is the clerks/cashiers who actually handle the money and pay absolutely no role in the decision of either setting your tax rate or receiving the ticket in the first place.
If you tried that at a car dealer, they'd probably tell you to deposit it in a bank and then get a cashier's check for the amount or turn down the sale. Risk of miscounting large amounts of cash, risk that's ill-gotten gains, the dealer would want a bank to take those risks not them.
True. I've bought cars with "cash" and they've always required a check.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2024, 06:08:20 PMI do agree that the $50 is kind of a useless denomination.
They're useful for gas station fill-ups and fast food lunches with the family while we're on a road trip.
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 12:39:06 PMQuote from: kkt on March 29, 2024, 12:09:08 PMQuote from: ZLoth on March 29, 2024, 09:48:00 AMQuote from: kalvado on March 29, 2024, 06:56:24 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 06:29:25 AM$1s are still going to be the most-used, though, because they're the only bill that has a quasi-legitimate reason to have 4 in the same transaction. (This assumes you're like 99% of the population that pretends $2 bills don't exist, of course.)
You never bought a car for cash, do you?
I really hope you aren't one of those people who pays unwanted large bills (like property taxes or parking/traffic tickets) in just dollar bills or pennies. Those type of people are the worse because all it's harming is the clerks/cashiers who actually handle the money and pay absolutely no role in the decision of either setting your tax rate or receiving the ticket in the first place.
If you tried that at a car dealer, they'd probably tell you to deposit it in a bank and then get a cashier's check for the amount or turn down the sale. Risk of miscounting large amounts of cash, risk that's ill-gotten gains, the dealer would want a bank to take those risks not them.
True. I've bought cars with "cash" and they've always required a check.
If you're buying from a dealer - probably. From a semi-random person who is moving out of town, if not out of country, and is selling off everything that doesn't fit in a checked bag?
Quote from: kalvado on March 29, 2024, 02:24:18 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 12:39:06 PMQuote from: kkt on March 29, 2024, 12:09:08 PMQuote from: ZLoth on March 29, 2024, 09:48:00 AMQuote from: kalvado on March 29, 2024, 06:56:24 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 06:29:25 AM$1s are still going to be the most-used, though, because they're the only bill that has a quasi-legitimate reason to have 4 in the same transaction. (This assumes you're like 99% of the population that pretends $2 bills don't exist, of course.)
You never bought a car for cash, do you?
I really hope you aren't one of those people who pays unwanted large bills (like property taxes or parking/traffic tickets) in just dollar bills or pennies. Those type of people are the worse because all it's harming is the clerks/cashiers who actually handle the money and pay absolutely no role in the decision of either setting your tax rate or receiving the ticket in the first place.
If you tried that at a car dealer, they'd probably tell you to deposit it in a bank and then get a cashier's check for the amount or turn down the sale. Risk of miscounting large amounts of cash, risk that's ill-gotten gains, the dealer would want a bank to take those risks not them.
True. I've bought cars with "cash" and they've always required a check.
If you're buying from a dealer - probably. From a semi-random person who is moving out of town, if not out of country, and is selling off everything that doesn't fit in a checked bag?
Well, buying from a dealer was the context of the question I was responding to...rather than selling to P. Diddy.
I've paid "cash" for my last four vehicle purchases, and all were at dealerships. But I wrote a personal check each time, so I don't actually know how they'd have handled dollar currency. (Note that I've only ever bought used, so the amounts were significantly lower than for a new car.)
My understanding is that most dealerships will accept dollar currency, not just checks. But, either way, if you're paying in full, then the salesman doesn't get any kickback commission for bank financing, so they have less incentive to lower the sticker price for any reason.
I've purchased two cars at dealerships for cash. I used a cashier check both times. I'm unclear if they would have accepted a bag of paper money.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 12:37:32 PMQuote from: kkt on March 29, 2024, 12:12:59 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2024, 10:46:22 AMSome people oppose eliminating the $1 bill out of concern that a $1 coin is hard to use for tips at a strip club. (Which invariably leads to jokes about using the "coin slot.")
$1 isn't much of a tip!
I've wondered about that. The last time I was in a strip club was circa 2002. What is the proper tipping amount nowadays at a modern strip club? Are dudes handing out $5 bills or something?
I haven't been to a strip club at all, I'm just thinking minimum wage here is $20 an hour so a dollar would be only about 3 minutes' pay, for a job that doesn't even make you get naked.
Quote from: kkt on March 29, 2024, 06:55:14 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 12:37:32 PMQuote from: kkt on March 29, 2024, 12:12:59 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2024, 10:46:22 AMSome people oppose eliminating the $1 bill out of concern that a $1 coin is hard to use for tips at a strip club. (Which invariably leads to jokes about using the "coin slot.")
$1 isn't much of a tip!
I've wondered about that. The last time I was in a strip club was circa 2002. What is the proper tipping amount nowadays at a modern strip club? Are dudes handing out $5 bills or something?
I haven't been to a strip club at all, I'm just thinking minimum wage here is $20 an hour so a dollar would be only about 3 minutes' pay, for a job that doesn't even make you get naked.
My assumption is based off the fact that it was at the time proper etiquette to give dancers two or three $1 bills. For the most part the grouping for those visits was me, my brother and two to four mutual friends. I can see that scenario becoming profitable if $5s are in play.
And yes, strip clubs are a waste of money. I didn't take much enjoyment in handing out money and hanging out with sloshed acquaintances in venues like that.
My current car I bought from a dealer without a loan, but they wanted me to write up a complete loan application AND get a cashier's check. I did. Maybe they get points for writing up a loan even though the loan would be retired before the first payment is even due? They did say they would not except cash for the full amount. Which is just as well, I guess. What if I was mugged on the way from the bank? That would suck.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:00:59 PMQuote from: kkt on March 29, 2024, 06:55:14 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 12:37:32 PMQuote from: kkt on March 29, 2024, 12:12:59 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on March 29, 2024, 10:46:22 AMSome people oppose eliminating the $1 bill out of concern that a $1 coin is hard to use for tips at a strip club. (Which invariably leads to jokes about using the "coin slot.")
$1 isn't much of a tip!
I've wondered about that. The last time I was in a strip club was circa 2002. What is the proper tipping amount nowadays at a modern strip club? Are dudes handing out $5 bills or something?
I haven't been to a strip club at all, I'm just thinking minimum wage here is $20 an hour so a dollar would be only about 3 minutes' pay, for a job that doesn't even make you get naked.
My assumption is based off the fact that it was at the time proper etiquette to give dancers two or three $1 bills. For the most part the grouping for those visits was me, my brother and two to four mutual friends. I can see that scenario becoming profitable if $5s are in play.
And yes, strip clubs are a waste of money. I didn't take much enjoyment in handing out money and hanging out with sloshed acquaintances in venues like that.
Yeah, I'd be thinking fives at a minimum if you want the girl to continue to (appear to) be enthusiastic about dancing.
My dealership explicitly said no to big bag of cash.
Would they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
A $2,000 down payment is 20 benjamins ... hardly a "bag of cash."
Quote from: Road Hog on March 29, 2024, 08:06:58 PMA $2,000 down payment is 20 benjamins ... hardly a "bag of cash."
We're talking about paying 100% cash...yes, dealerships will take smaller amounts...
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
Would it be a brown bag with a $ sign on it? Bonus points if you show up wearing a black and white shirt and a mask.
Quote from: vdeane on March 29, 2024, 09:24:09 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
Would it be a brown bag with a $ sign on it? Bonus points if you show up wearing a black and white shirt and a mask.
Or wrap it up in plastic like it is a drug cartel purchase.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 08:48:59 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Pretty strong feelings about a sticker.
Quote from: kalvado on March 29, 2024, 06:56:24 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 29, 2024, 06:29:25 AM$1s are still going to be the most-used, though, because they're the only bill that has a quasi-legitimate reason to have 4 in the same transaction. (This assumes you're like 99% of the population that pretends $2 bills don't exist, of course.)
You never bought a car for cash, do you?
If you're implying I forgot about $100s, remember I was a casino cashier. I paid out $212,000 in cash one day.
$100s have an entirely different circulation pattern than any other bill because they are the highest denomination in use today. For one thing, because of the US dollar's status as a global reserve currency, a big chunk of the $100s printed are held outside the borders of the United States. For another, most of the transactions where a $100 changes hands are immediately followed with the $100 getting deposited in a bank (since businesses can't use them as change there's zero reason to keep them onsite). Furthermore, most people are not going to do a transaction of $400 or greater in cash (anywhere outside of a casino, anyway). Thus, the $100 is really not all that relevant to a discussion of how long paper money lasts in circulation since it has so many weird quirks that make it not comparable to the other denominations.
As for the stripper thing, a "danse à dix" (literally "ten dollar dance") is common here in Québec, though I'm led to wonder if inflation made it a "danse à vingt" ("twenty dollar dance").
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 11:19:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 08:48:59 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Pretty strong feelings about a sticker.
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 11:19:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 08:48:59 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Pretty strong feelings about a sticker.
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 11:19:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 08:48:59 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Pretty strong feelings about a sticker.
I mean hey, I saved myself the hassle of having to buy a bottle of Goo Gone (which may also have a P65 label).
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 11:19:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 08:48:59 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Pretty strong feelings about a sticker.
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 11:19:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 08:48:59 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Pretty strong feelings about a sticker.
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 11:19:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 08:48:59 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Pretty strong feelings about a sticker.
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 11:19:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 08:48:59 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Pretty strong feelings about a sticker.
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 11:19:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 08:48:59 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Pretty strong feelings about a sticker.
Quote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 11:19:28 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 08:48:59 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 29, 2024, 07:56:42 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
I dunno, money tends to talk with automotive dealers. Back in 2019 the Subaru dealer insisted they couldn't take the P65 sticker off my Impreza. They changed their stance quickly when I suggested maybe the transaction wasn't for me.
Taking the sticker off makes it safe.
I haven't consumed the presumably delicious known cancer causing parts of the car yet.
Pretty strong feelings about a sticker.
Quote from: Road Hog on March 29, 2024, 08:06:58 PMA $2,000 down payment is 20 benjamins ... hardly a "bag of cash."
I thought we were talking about the entire cost of the vehicle, not a down payment. My current car was about $35,000 once they finished with the dealer markup = 350 $100 bills = pretty big bag, a suitcase might be better.
Quote from: kkt on March 30, 2024, 06:28:04 PMQuote from: Road Hog on March 29, 2024, 08:06:58 PMA $2,000 down payment is 20 benjamins ... hardly a "bag of cash."
I thought we were talking about the entire cost of the vehicle, not a down payment. My current car was about $35,000 once they finished with the dealer markup = 350 $100 bills = pretty big bag, a suitcase might be better.
That is a stack less than 1.5" high. Overall that is about the size of a sandwich for 35k.
From personal experience - $10k easily fits in a shirt pocket.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
For businesses with large transactions, the $10k threshold is hit regularly. Supermarkets for example: When people pay cash for their groceries, tills easily will eclipse thousands of dollars each. When I worked the Turnpike, I would rake in about $4k on a busy Sunday. And when that's multiplied by 10 lanes in my interchange alone, times 20+ interchanges, it would rack up to over a million many days without much effort. EZ Pass has knocked down the cash transactions significantly, but for many businesses, $10k in cash is just another day.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 30, 2024, 10:17:53 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 07:34:35 PMWould they actually say "no" if you did show up with a bag of cash? They still have to report the transaction if it would be over the Federal reporting limit. It would come down probably to do they have the ability to store the cash before a deposit and verify the cash isn't counterfeit.
For businesses with large transactions, the $10k threshold is hit regularly. Supermarkets for example: When people pay cash for their groceries, tills easily will eclipse thousands of dollars each. When I worked the Turnpike, I would rake in about $4k on a busy Sunday. And when that's multiplied by 10 lanes in my interchange alone, times 20+ interchanges, it would rack up to over a million many days without much effort. EZ Pass has knocked down the cash transactions significantly, but for many businesses, $10k in cash is just another day.
The reporting threshold simply causes the recipient to have to file a form with the Treasury Department. If there is a legitimate business reason for $10k to change hands, nothing else happens. It's mostly only when someone is throwing a bunch of cash around but not actually spending any that draws attention. (The classic example scenario is someone going to a blackjack pit and buying $10k worth of purple $500 chips, playing two hands, then cashing the remaining $9,000 out, which there's really no explanation for other than money laundering or the customer not being a rational actor.)
My thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? Great, they're counting out a bunch of twenties. Maybe they'll hand it over and count out the change quickly."
"They're taking out more bills? You bought like three items! There's no way you need to pay with three $20 bills!"
"uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh"
"That didn't take so long!"
Really though, credit cards aren't a new invention. You've had like 40 years to get one, why are you still paying with cash? And why make a huge fuss over it?
It's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
Quote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMReally though, credit cards aren't a new invention. You've had like 40 years to get one, why are you still paying with cash? And why make a huge fuss over it?
Probably wanting to make it hard for companies to track their purchases or something like that. After all, money is fairly anonymous, at least compared to checks or cards...
Quote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? Great, they're counting out a bunch of twenties. Maybe they'll hand it over and count out the change quickly."
"They're taking out more bills? You bought like three items! There's no way you need to pay with three $20 bills!"
"uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh"
"That didn't take so long!"
Really though, credit cards aren't a new invention. You've had like 40 years to get one, why are you still paying with cash? And why make a huge fuss over it?
It's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
I've never had a $20 bill decide that, because I'm out of state or even in a different part of town than normal, it suddenly won't be a form of legal tender anymore until I call someone up on a 1-800 number and beg for the right to spend my own money. I've also never had a $20 bill stop working because the power went out.
As a business owner, I've also never had to pay a fee to accept cash.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 31, 2024, 01:07:45 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? Great, they're counting out a bunch of twenties. Maybe they'll hand it over and count out the change quickly."
"They're taking out more bills? You bought like three items! There's no way you need to pay with three $20 bills!"
"uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh"
"That didn't take so long!"
Really though, credit cards aren't a new invention. You've had like 40 years to get one, why are you still paying with cash? And why make a huge fuss over it?
It's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
I've never had a $20 bill decide that, because I'm out of state or even in a different part of town than normal, it suddenly won't be a form of legal tender anymore until I call someone up on a 1-800 number and beg for the right to spend my own money. I've also never had a $20 bill stop working because the power went out.
As a business owner, I've also never had to pay a fee to accept cash.
I suppose also, if someone steals your cash, the theoretical damage they can do to your finances is far more limited than if they get your cards.
Quote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMIt's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
The Internet, or cellphone or other phone service, does not exist in much of Death Valley unless you have an expensive satellite phone. If you're camping out in one of the park's more remote areas (as I've done), and need to make a payment to another camper, cash is king.
Quote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? Great, they're counting out a bunch of twenties. Maybe they'll hand it over and count out the change quickly."
"They're taking out more bills? You bought like three items! There's no way you need to pay with three $20 bills!"
"uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh"
"That didn't take so long!"
Really though, credit cards aren't a new invention. You've had like 40 years to get one, why are you still paying with cash? And why make a huge fuss over it?
It's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
I've found cash to be faster. No waiting for instructions on the pinpad. And no "card declined" issues (those seemed to happen a lot when I worked at the grocery store).
Quote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? ....
You're probably barely old enough to have been stuck behind a person writing a check for groceries. And they only bring out the checkbook when the clerk tells them the total, and they have to fill out the whole thing.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on March 31, 2024, 03:52:05 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 31, 2024, 01:07:45 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? Great, they're counting out a bunch of twenties. Maybe they'll hand it over and count out the change quickly."
"They're taking out more bills? You bought like three items! There's no way you need to pay with three $20 bills!"
"uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh"
"That didn't take so long!"
Really though, credit cards aren't a new invention. You've had like 40 years to get one, why are you still paying with cash? And why make a huge fuss over it?
It's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
I've never had a $20 bill decide that, because I'm out of state or even in a different part of town than normal, it suddenly won't be a form of legal tender anymore until I call someone up on a 1-800 number and beg for the right to spend my own money. I've also never had a $20 bill stop working because the power went out.
As a business owner, I've also never had to pay a fee to accept cash.
I suppose also, if someone steals your cash, the theoretical damage they can do to your finances is far more limited than if they get your cards.
Pfft. It's very easy to get charges reversed. Lost cash is just kaput.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on March 31, 2024, 12:35:15 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMReally though, credit cards aren't a new invention. You've had like 40 years to get one, why are you still paying with cash? And why make a huge fuss over it?
Probably wanting to make it hard for companies to track their purchases or something like that. After all, money is fairly anonymous, at least compared to checks or cards...
Not wanted to be tracked can be for legitimate reasons as well. I don't necessarily want to get on the mailing list of every company I ever buy something from.
Quote from: GaryV on March 31, 2024, 08:14:02 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? ....
You're probably barely old enough to have been stuck behind a person writing a check for groceries. And they only bring out the checkbook when the clerk tells them the total, and they have to fill out the whole thing.
You're probably too young to remember when a lot of people used checks at the grocery story. Almost everyone had everything filled out but the amount before they even got to the cashier.
Quote from: kkt on March 31, 2024, 10:53:24 AMQuote from: GaryV on March 31, 2024, 08:14:02 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? ....
You're probably barely old enough to have been stuck behind a person writing a check for groceries. And they only bring out the checkbook when the clerk tells them the total, and they have to fill out the whole thing.
You're probably too young to remember when a lot of people used checks at the grocery story. Almost everyone had everything filled out but the amount before they even got to the cashier.
Not even just the grocery store. I worked at Walmart from 1996-2001 and so many people wrote checks back then, and that was working in Sporting Goods at a remote register. From the beginning to the end of my time there I could start to see a noticeable drop in check usage, along with gift certificates becoming gift cards at most retailers in that same period. Lots more credit cards compared to cash beginning to end of that period as well.
Walmart had the thing where the register could fill out the whole check itself and the customer just needed to sign it. No one freakin' trusted that to work right despite it never failing on me.
Quote from: kkt on March 31, 2024, 10:53:24 AMQuote from: GaryV on March 31, 2024, 08:14:02 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? ....
You're probably barely old enough to have been stuck behind a person writing a check for groceries. And they only bring out the checkbook when the clerk tells them the total, and they have to fill out the whole thing.
You're probably too young to remember when a lot of people used checks at the grocery story. Almost everyone had everything filled out but the amount before they even got to the cashier.
Well that's the first time I've been called too young in a number of years. :nod:
Yes, I remember most people using checks, and most people having them filled out ahead of time. But there were plenty who weren't that courteous. And many of those people kept using checks long after most of us switched to cards.
Quote from: GaryV on March 31, 2024, 02:09:22 PMQuote from: kkt on March 31, 2024, 10:53:24 AMQuote from: GaryV on March 31, 2024, 08:14:02 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? ....
You're probably barely old enough to have been stuck behind a person writing a check for groceries. And they only bring out the checkbook when the clerk tells them the total, and they have to fill out the whole thing.
You're probably too young to remember when a lot of people used checks at the grocery story. Almost everyone had everything filled out but the amount before they even got to the cashier.
Well that's the first time I've been called too young in a number of years. :nod:
Yes, I remember most people using checks, and most people having them filled out ahead of time. But there were plenty who weren't that courteous. And many of those people kept using checks long after most of us switched to cards.
And many of those old ladies (they were almost always old ladies) who waited to take out the checkbook would also fill in the check register before tearing out the check and handing it over.
Then, depending on the store, the cashier would have to ask for some form of ID and record that info on the check.
Quote from: kkt on March 31, 2024, 10:53:24 AMQuote from: GaryV on March 31, 2024, 08:14:02 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? ....
You're probably barely old enough to have been stuck behind a person writing a check for groceries. And they only bring out the checkbook when the clerk tells them the total, and they have to fill out the whole thing.
You're probably too young to remember when a lot of people used checks at the grocery story. Almost everyone had everything filled out but the amount before they even got to the cashier.
I am not too young, and that's total b.s. It was miserable back then.
About a decade ago we had a rash of older employees trying to float checks on appliance purchases. They weren't trying to defraud but rather were used to checks taking 7-10 business days to clear at the bank. I recall doing the same in the early 2000s when I had a refrigerator break down and I had five days until my paycheck (which was then paper due to direct deposit having a fee).
Quote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMMy thought process when someone pays with cash at a (restaurant, grocery store, etc.):
"Dude, what's taking so long...?"
"Oh my god, are they paying with cash? Great, they're counting out a bunch of twenties. Maybe they'll hand it over and count out the change quickly."
"They're taking out more bills? You bought like three items! There's no way you need to pay with three $20 bills!"
"uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh"
"That didn't take so long!"
Really though, credit cards aren't a new invention. You've had like 40 years to get one, why are you still paying with cash? And why make a huge fuss over it?
It's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
For some of these people, it may not be the affordability, but rather their credit rating sucks. Bad practices when they were younger may have led them to sucky credit, or bad choices in life (cosigning a loan for their kid who then quickly didn't pay the loan on time). Maybe they use their credit sparingly or not at all. Some could have a card simply for the hotel deposit then pay in cash upon departure.
There is a segment of the population that seems to only deal with cash, or would much rather deal with cash. Contractors seem to often be in this group. I had some trees cut down last year, and paid entirely with cash.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 31, 2024, 01:07:45 AMI've never had a $20 bill decide that, because I'm out of state or even in a different part of town than normal, it suddenly won't be a form of legal tender anymore...
But there's a chance that $20 bill is a fake.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 31, 2024, 01:07:45 AMI've also never had a $20 bill stop working because the power went out.
Credit Cards can be used when power is out, or even if you're nowhere near a power source. If it's a more personal, person-to-person transaction, credit cards can be used. In fact, both people don't even need to be present with each other - the buyer can simply Venmo or other app the money to the seller. Can't do that with cash.
Dang...Venmo has entered the chat. There's another convenience...
Quote from: Rothman on March 31, 2024, 06:31:01 PMDang...Venmo has entered the chat. There's another convenience...
Venmo and Zelle are amazing. Makes sending a few bucks to family/friends or repaying coworkers super easy. I wish more places accepted those or PayPal as payment, because I have seen it and I love it. No cash or power needed as long as your phone is charged.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 05:53:01 PMI've purchased two cars at dealerships for cash. I used a cashier check both times. I'm unclear if they would have accepted a bag of paper money.
Lots of paperwork for buyer and seller to fill out, once the cash (rather than check) gets received over a certain amount. If you're buying a vehicle with $10,000 in greenbacks, you've probably got some explaining to do. And there's not as many sub-$10K vehicles out there anymore.
Seriously, people don't research these kinds of far-flung trip plans ahead of time? Check the Internet in advance? Make a phone call? Yeah, I probably would have been surprised at a cashless policy for a park 15 years ago, but not so much today.
Quote from: formulanone on March 31, 2024, 06:56:22 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 05:53:01 PMI've purchased two cars at dealerships for cash. I used a cashier check both times. I'm unclear if they would have accepted a bag of paper money.
Lots of paperwork for buyer and seller to fill out, once the cash (rather than check) gets received over a certain amount. If you're buying a vehicle with $10,000 in greenbacks, you've probably got some explaining to do. And there's not as many sub-$10K vehicles out there anymore.
Seriously, people don't research these kinds of far-flung trip plans ahead of time? Check the Internet in advance? Make a phone call? Yeah, I probably would have been surprised at a cashless policy for a park 15 years ago, but not so much today.
That's just it, if you aren't engaged in anything illegal then there isn't much for the buyer to explain. Really it is more of a hassle for the business to take cash over other methods of payment.
And yes, a lot of normal folks don't intimately research places they plan on visiting. Any time there has been a reservation system at a nearby park someone complains about how they "didn't know" online after they got turned away.
Quote from: formulanone on March 31, 2024, 06:56:22 PMSeriously, people don't research these kinds of far-flung trip plans ahead of time? Check the Internet in advance? Make a phone call? Yeah, I probably would have been surprised at a cashless policy for a park 15 years ago, but not so much today.
And, the thing is that
few of these parks are actually 100% cashless if you do your research. Most of these "cashless" parks have a way to purchase admission or other services with cash, often via a third party. Death Valley, for example, clearly advertises that you can pay cash for admission at the businesses inside the park or the USFS visitor center along US 395. The businesses don't have the same requirements for cash transport as the federal government, which makes cash transport much cheaper than if NPS had to do it themselves, while the USFS interagency visitor center in Lone Pine is in a decent-sized settlement with a full set of services.
If there's no way to pay cash, that's one thing. But many of the NPS sites that claim to be "cashless" really aren't.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 31, 2024, 07:06:21 PMThat's just it, if you aren't engaged in anything illegal then there isn't much for the buyer to explain. Really it is more of a hassle for the business to take cash over other methods of payment.
This is the other thing. The government does not care what you are buying as long as it isn't illegal. If they really cared, they have ways of tracking other than credit cards. And it is increasingly expensive for businesses to take cash, as more shoppers move to card payments and the costs for handling cash have not decreased.
Quote from: cl94 on March 31, 2024, 06:45:05 PMQuote from: Rothman on March 31, 2024, 06:31:01 PMDang...Venmo has entered the chat. There's another convenience...
Venmo and Zelle are amazing. Makes sending a few bucks to family/friends or repaying coworkers super easy. I wish more places accepted those or PayPal as payment, because I have seen it and I love it. No cash or power needed as long as your phone is charged.
Russian Fast Transfer System is a few light years ahead though.
Quote from: cl94 on March 31, 2024, 07:21:48 PMQuote from: formulanone on March 31, 2024, 06:56:22 PMSeriously, people don't research these kinds of far-flung trip plans ahead of time? Check the Internet in advance? Make a phone call? Yeah, I probably would have been surprised at a cashless policy for a park 15 years ago, but not so much today.
And, the thing is that few of these parks are actually 100% cashless if you do your research. Most of these "cashless" parks have a way to purchase admission or other services with cash, often via a third party. Death Valley, for example, clearly advertises that you can pay cash for admission at the businesses inside the park or the USFS visitor center along US 395. The businesses don't have the same requirements for cash transport as the federal government, which makes cash transport much cheaper than if NPS had to do it themselves, while the USFS interagency visitor center in Lone Pine is in a decent-sized settlement with a full set of services.
If there's no way to pay cash, that's one thing. But many of the NPS sites that claim to be "cashless" really aren't.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 31, 2024, 07:06:21 PMThat's just it, if you aren't engaged in anything illegal then there isn't much for the buyer to explain. Really it is more of a hassle for the business to take cash over other methods of payment.
This is the other thing. The government does not care what you are buying as long as it isn't illegal. If they really cared, they have ways of tracking other than credit cards. And it is increasingly expensive for businesses to take cash, as more shoppers move to card payments and the costs for handling cash have not decreased.
Meanwhile NY state requires businesses applying surcharge to card transactions post card price as a separate one, not as "x% surcharge"
Quote from: oscar on March 31, 2024, 06:33:02 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMIt's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
The Internet, or cellphone or other phone service, does not exist in much of Death Valley unless you have an expensive satellite phone. If you're camping out in one of the park's more remote areas (as I've done), and need to make a payment to another camper, cash is king.
Most of the park has card-only pay stations now. I don't know how they do it in places with no/minimal service, but they do. It helps that the park outside of the geographic Death Valley's watershed is generally fee-free these days.
Quote from: cl94 on March 31, 2024, 08:17:47 PMQuote from: oscar on March 31, 2024, 06:33:02 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMIt's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
The Internet, or cellphone or other phone service, does not exist in much of Death Valley unless you have an expensive satellite phone. If you're camping out in one of the park's more remote areas (as I've done), and need to make a payment to another camper, cash is king.
Most of the park has card-only pay stations now. I don't know how they do it in places with no/minimal service, but they do. It helps that the park outside of the geographic Death Valley's watershed is generally fee-free these days.
I believe you are supposed to pay for everything at one of the boundary pay stations (including camping).
Quote from: formulanone on March 31, 2024, 06:56:22 PMQuote from: Max Rockatansky on March 29, 2024, 05:53:01 PMI've purchased two cars at dealerships for cash. I used a cashier check both times. I'm unclear if they would have accepted a bag of paper money.
Lots of paperwork for buyer and seller to fill out, once the cash (rather than check) gets received over a certain amount. If you're buying a vehicle with $10,000 in greenbacks, you've probably got some explaining to do. And there's not as many sub-$10K vehicles out there anymore.
What's there to explain? Some people have, or hoard, cash. At a car dealership, if they take cash for a car, there's no specialized paperwork for the customer or dealership to fill out. Especially on their busier days at busier dealerships, the volume of cars being sold and the down payments being made, will easily be over $10k. It's a simple form for the dealership's accountants to fill out, if they're even required to. Registration, sales taxes and other documents are more involved.
Wanna see cash in action? Go to a casino. Thousands of dollars being handed over back and forth like pocket change. Scott can attest to this.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 31, 2024, 08:21:03 PMQuote from: cl94 on March 31, 2024, 08:17:47 PMQuote from: oscar on March 31, 2024, 06:33:02 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMIt's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
The Internet, or cellphone or other phone service, does not exist in much of Death Valley unless you have an expensive satellite phone. If you're camping out in one of the park's more remote areas (as I've done), and need to make a payment to another camper, cash is king.
Most of the park has card-only pay stations now. I don't know how they do it in places with no/minimal service, but they do. It helps that the park outside of the geographic Death Valley's watershed is generally fee-free these days.
I believe you are supposed to pay for everything at one of the boundary pay stations (including camping).
The semi-developed campgrounds that charge, you pay with card at the campground. The more remote ones do not charge a fee. Everything else, yeah, you're supposed to pay at the boundary of the fee area or pay with cash at a business in/near the park. And I stress "fee area" because Panamint Valley is outside of said fee area.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 31, 2024, 03:41:01 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 31, 2024, 01:07:45 AMI've never had a $20 bill decide that, because I'm out of state or even in a different part of town than normal, it suddenly won't be a form of legal tender anymore...
But there's a chance that $20 bill is a fake.
I have spotted a fake $20 from 10 feet away.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 31, 2024, 03:41:01 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on March 31, 2024, 01:07:45 AMI've also never had a $20 bill stop working because the power went out.
Credit Cards can be used when power is out, or even if you're nowhere near a power source. If it's a more personal, person-to-person transaction, credit cards can be used. In fact, both people don't even need to be present with each other - the buyer can simply Venmo or other app the money to the seller. Can't do that with cash.
They can be used. In practice, they aren't—you just get a cashier standing there with a sad look on their face saying the credit card machine is down.
If I
absolutely need to buy something, I make sure I have cash with me even if I intend to use a card. Doing otherwise invites trouble—what are you going to do if you need gas in Tonopah and your credit card isn't working?
Quote from: cl94 on March 31, 2024, 08:17:47 PMQuote from: oscar on March 31, 2024, 06:33:02 AMQuote from: noelbotevera on March 31, 2024, 12:08:22 AMIt's not like the people visiting national parks like Death Valley can't afford to have a credit/debit card with a bank. They probably spent a bunch of money to travel there and rent a room for a couple of nights.
The Internet, or cellphone or other phone service, does not exist in much of Death Valley unless you have an expensive satellite phone. If you're camping out in one of the park's more remote areas (as I've done), and need to make a payment to another camper, cash is king.
Most of the park has card-only pay stations now. I don't know how they do it in places with no/minimal service, but they do. It helps that the park outside of the geographic Death Valley's watershed is generally fee-free these days.
Emphasis on the part of my quote "payment to another camper". Camping itself at informal campgrounds is fee-free (you're supposed to use a pay station for admission to the entire national park, but if you use an entrance without a fee station, the rangers don't check on that). But, for example, there is a community expectation where I've camped that you'll bring supplies needed for the campground such as hand sanitizer for the pit toilets, or exactly the right kind of fertilizer for the lawn. Where your contribution doesn't meet the need, cash or check to the unofficial management can help them meet the need next time they return to civilization. Ditto for other inter-camper transactions, such as supplying fuel to someone who might otherwise be unable to reach the nearest gas station.