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Started by Alex, August 18, 2009, 12:34:57 AM

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Plutonic Panda

I love this:

" For years we have been working on a solution to transform the obsolete and poorly designed I-81 viaduct in Syracuse into a modern transportation corridor"

Which is reverting it back to an a road with at grade crossings. That is comedy.


empirestate

 
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 09, 2021, 11:33:37 PM
I love this:

" For years we have been working on a solution to transform the obsolete and poorly designed I-81 viaduct in Syracuse into a modern transportation corridor"

Which is reverting it back to an a road with at grade crossings. That is comedy.

Yeah, like how "modern" art was all the rage in the early 20th century. Then it was superseded by all this wacky stuff a few decades later–and now look at which of the two still draws crowds in a museum! :-D

Buffaboy

Quote from: vdeane on April 08, 2021, 12:46:22 PM
Another thing to keep in mind that Albany is a major intersection of corridors.  There's I-87 to the north and south, I-90 to the east and west, and I-88 to the southwest (there's also NY 7/VT 9 to the northeast).  Traffic from the south, west, east, and southwest then goes north of I-87 to Lake George/Saratoga/the Adirondacks.

Don't forget Montreal.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

My Wikipedia county SVG maps: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Buffaboy

kalvado

Quote from: Buffaboy on April 10, 2021, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 08, 2021, 12:46:22 PM
Another thing to keep in mind that Albany is a major intersection of corridors.  There's I-87 to the north and south, I-90 to the east and west, and I-88 to the southwest (there's also NY 7/VT 9 to the northeast).  Traffic from the south, west, east, and southwest then goes north of I-87 to Lake George/Saratoga/the Adirondacks.

Don't forget Montreal.
I-87 up north and I-88 are fairly empty most of the time. there are 3 busy roads out of Albany - going to Boston, NYC and Buffalo. Buffalo-Boston (Hartford) is probably the only traffic stream transiting through Albany area. NYC-Boston and NYC-Syracuse(Buffalo) don't need to go through Albany.
Canal was a big transit route, but no longer is.

vdeane

#5154
Quote from: kalvado on April 10, 2021, 05:18:31 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on April 10, 2021, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 08, 2021, 12:46:22 PM
Another thing to keep in mind that Albany is a major intersection of corridors.  There's I-87 to the north and south, I-90 to the east and west, and I-88 to the southwest (there's also NY 7/VT 9 to the northeast).  Traffic from the south, west, east, and southwest then goes north of I-87 to Lake George/Saratoga/the Adirondacks.

Don't forget Montreal.
I-87 up north and I-88 are fairly empty most of the time. there are 3 busy roads out of Albany - going to Boston, NYC and Buffalo. Buffalo-Boston (Hartford) is probably the only traffic stream transiting through Albany area. NYC-Boston and NYC-Syracuse(Buffalo) don't need to go through Albany.
Canal was a big transit route, but no longer is.
Depends on how expansive you define the "Albany area".  In normal times, there's lots of out of state traffic going up the Northway to Saratoga/Lake George, though this is, of course, seasonal.

There isn't nearly as much Albany-Montréal traffic as one would think.  The border is just enough of an impediment to tamp it down a little, and traffic counts through Essex County are very low (some sections get down to an AADT of around 5-6k, much less than I-90 or I-87 south of Albany).  It's also very desolate by northeast interstate standards - in the whole of Essex County (a bit over 50 miles as the crow flies) there are only three* towns of any significance within 5 miles of the Northway (Schroon Lake, Elizabethtown, and Westport), two of them from the same exit.  There is a fair amount of Canadian traffic, but a lot of that is going to the Adirondacks as well, so not all of it makes it down to Albany.  Also keep in mind that the drive is long.  Between the Thruway moving south and the border moving north, I-87 north of I-90 is about the same length as I-81 is across the entire state.  Albany-Plattsburgh is not Syracuse-Watertown but further east.

*Four if including Keeseville, though the exit and majority of the former village are in Clinton County.

Quote from: empirestate on April 10, 2021, 12:26:21 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 09, 2021, 11:33:37 PM
I love this:

" For years we have been working on a solution to transform the obsolete and poorly designed I-81 viaduct in Syracuse into a modern transportation corridor"

Which is reverting it back to an a road with at grade crossings. That is comedy.

Yeah, like how "modern" art was all the rage in the early 20th century. Then it was superseded by all this wacky stuff a few decades later–and now look at which of the two still draws crowds in a museum! :-D
I suspect the Urbanists consider the entire concept of a freeway to be outdated.  They want to replace all urban freeways with boulevards, bikes, and transit, and all rural freeways with trains.  Make no mistake, that's the endgame.

(personal opinion)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

empirestate

 
Quote from: vdeane on April 10, 2021, 11:21:50 PM
I suspect the Urbanists consider the entire concept of a freeway to be outdated.  They want to replace all urban freeways with boulevards, bikes, and transit, and all rural freeways with trains.  Make no mistake, that's the endgame.

(personal opinion)

Exactly. The concept of replacing an urban freeway with a surface boulevard is indeed quite modern–as in current, recently in vogue–so that's not the funny part. Where the comedy comes in is that "Modern" also refers to a specific aesthetic period that is now quite out-of-date–like the I-81 freeway through Syracuse. So they want to replace something Modern with something modern. :-D

TheGrassGuy

What next? Turning the Harlem River Drive back into a speedway for horse traffic only? Taking a page out of The Netherlands's book and making the Thruway a bicycle highway? Just think of all the trees we'll be saving! :bigass:
If you ever feel useless, remember that CR 504 exists.

empirestate

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on April 12, 2021, 07:54:52 AM
What next? Turning the Harlem River Drive back into a speedway for horse traffic only? Taking a page out of The Netherlands's book and making the Thruway a bicycle highway? Just think of all the trees we'll be saving! :bigass:

I don't think the Thruway is considered obsolete (i.e., "modern") by any appreciable number of people, so that wouldn't be a good comparison. Harlem River Drive–more likely, actually! (Especially if you did replace it with a bicycle facility, rather than a horse track.) But a better comparison still would be the replacement of the West Side Highway with the current surface boulevard.

vdeane

Eh, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some people out there who see high-speed rail as a replacement for the interstate system.  And actually, there is a trail following a similar route to the Thruway!
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

kernals12

#5159
Quote from: Buffaboy on April 02, 2021, 09:31:45 AM
According to the Buffalo News, state planners have decided that NY-5/Skyway should be converted into a 40-MPH "boulevard" rather than a 55-MPH expressway. I don't agree with this at all, mostly because this road goes through a predominantly industrial area with a connection to another freeway. I am not sure what they are envisioning this area to look like, because in other cities with similar highway setups, I don't think they would completely downgrade their expressways like this. I'm not understanding the rationale to do this. I also don't think they actually talked to the people who use this road everyday... that was me for a few years.

Ironically, the I-190 in South Buffalo actually cuts neighborhoods off... I'm not sure why they don't push to remove that highway as well, because the Skyway only cuts on the Canalside district. In addition, it's been reported that even if the Skyway is removed, they will still keep a portion of the deck and piers around for a pedestrian park. I thought the goal was to increase development space at Canalside. I don't understand who is planning these projects.

Edit: Are these the "planners?" This is whack!

Quote[Rep Brian Higgins and State Sen Tim Kennedy] want to also see a new on-ramp at Lake Avenue to take Southtowns residents to the 90 to connect to the 190, and a Thruway turning lane at Milestrip Road.





https://buffalonews.com/news/local/weve-got-to-get-it-right-boulevard-option-gains-favor-as-skyway-review-moves-ahead/article_c8e65f06-873f-11eb-b8a7-979504e370e7.html

Also, the Skyway is rather beautiful. There seems to be a backlash forming against its removal https://www.change.org/p/brian-higgins-save-the-skyway-bridge?recruiter=925986633&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=b80a0c80-0c64-11e9-93bd-eb0aef6101a6

Plutonic Panda

Good. I signed it. It would be awesome to see this structure saved.

vdeane

One thing to keep in mind: that petition advocates work around NY 198 and NY 33 that could include freeway removals.  The NY 33 proposal was originally to cap it, but nobody wants the exhaust vents, so I wouldn't rule out a full removal being considered at some point.  Also, a good chunk of the "keep the Skyway" crowd wants to keep it as a pedestrian-only Cloudwalk (which would no longer exist in the area around I-190 and would have a giant elevator built instead), not as a freeway.

(personal opinion)
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

kernals12

Quote from: vdeane on April 12, 2021, 09:37:49 PM
One thing to keep in mind: that petition advocates work around NY 198 and NY 33 that could include freeway removals.  The NY 33 proposal was originally to cap it, but nobody wants the exhaust vents, so I wouldn't rule out a full removal being considered at some point.  Also, a good chunk of the "keep the Skyway" crowd wants to keep it as a pedestrian-only Cloudwalk (which would no longer exist in the area around I-190 and would have a giant elevator built instead), not as a freeway.

(personal opinion)

Exhaust vents won't be needed in the future with electric cars.

vdeane

So you're suggesting that they leave everything the way it is now for the couple of decades it will take for electric cars to become pervasive enough to not need exhaust vents?  Good luck with that...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

kernals12

Quote from: vdeane on April 12, 2021, 10:22:42 PM
So you're suggesting that they leave everything the way it is now for the couple of decades it will take for electric cars to become pervasive enough to not need exhaust vents?  Good luck with that...

Decades? Try years.

Alps

Quote from: kernals12 on April 12, 2021, 11:52:11 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 12, 2021, 10:22:42 PM
So you're suggesting that they leave everything the way it is now for the couple of decades it will take for electric cars to become pervasive enough to not need exhaust vents?  Good luck with that...

Decades? Try years.
Try decades. Next.

vdeane

Quote from: kernals12 on April 12, 2021, 11:52:11 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 12, 2021, 10:22:42 PM
So you're suggesting that they leave everything the way it is now for the couple of decades it will take for electric cars to become pervasive enough to not need exhaust vents?  Good luck with that...

Decades? Try years.
In the places that set a date for outlawing ICE cars, that date tends to be in the 2030-2040 time range.  Then you need to add another decade on top of that for the ICE cars on the road when that happens to age out of the fleet.  So yes, decades.  Given that electric cars take a long time to charge and aren't as good on roadtrips for that reason, with no credible evidence that such will change (the battery industry has been trying to figure out fast charging of big batteries for over 20 years now and, despite many promising attempts, has failed to do so every time, so any claim that they will is extraordinary and requires extraordinary evidence), adoption is going to be limited to people who are willing to put up with the more frequent/longer stops to charge and/or people who are willing to just use it to drive around town and have (or rent) a separate car for trips for a while, perhaps up until people are forced by government mandate.  Most people want a car that can handle all their needs, not just the most common ones and end up needing a second car or to rent for the others.

Regardless, as I'm sure this will all be dismissed because it doesn't agree with your pre-conceived prognostications of what you want the future to look like, even if we assume it was just years, the people who want to remove those freeways aren't going to want to wait even that long, and the freeway removal movement is only gaining momentum.  Every project, in their eyes, is just a stepping stone to removing even more freeways.  The Inner Loop in Rochester is already being used to justify removing I-81 in Syracuse and I-787 in Albany, for example.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

seicer

No place has outlawed ICE car ownership or usage. A select few are setting mandates for forcing the sale of -new- electric-only vehicles. As it is, you can purchase a very cheap ICE car; battery-only vehicles are still very expensive and unattainable to all but the upper class.

The Ghostbuster

I think electric cars will not become the norm until you can recharge an electric car's batteries as fast as you can fill an ICE's gas tank with gasoline, and go as far as that ICE car without recharging. Also, the car's electrical batteries would have to work in all temperatures and climates, and could last as long as a well-maintained ICE car. Not to mention the car's batteries should be able to be recharged during power outages and after natural disasters. In conclusion, I am skeptical of predictions of a full ICE-to-electric conversion (and am also skeptical of all pedictions about the future), and believe that the "outlaw" dates will come and go without everyone having given up their ICE cars.

kernals12

Lithium ion battery costs have fallen 97% since 1991.

And based on the continued breakthroughs coming out of research labs all over the world, this progress is not going to stop any time soon. And these advances are being commercialized. Chevrolet is bringing out an electric Silverado pickup truck in 2023 with 400 miles of range. And trucks and buses, which make up a disproportionate share of harmful emissions, will probably go electric sooner as operators are more willing to pay higher upfront costs in exchange for lower fuel and maintenance bills. I think that the electric age is close enough to justify not permanently dismantling a freeway out of air pollution concerns.


Rothman

This thread is supposed to be about NY...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Rothman on April 13, 2021, 09:34:27 PM
This thread is supposed to be about NY...

Yes, New York has ICE cars, being on the Canadian border. You could also make an ice car sculpture, but it would melt quickly.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

The Ghostbuster

Yes. Let's all go back to talking about New York, everybody! Any other off-topic material (such as the ICE car vs. electric car debate) should be confined to the Off-Topic Board.

vdeane

Quote from: seicer on April 13, 2021, 02:43:05 PM
No place has outlawed ICE car ownership or usage. A select few are setting mandates for forcing the sale of -new- electric-only vehicles. As it is, you can purchase a very cheap ICE car; battery-only vehicles are still very expensive and unattainable to all but the upper class.
That's what I meant about the ICE cars aging out of the fleet.  Even after the date where the sale of new ICE cars is reached, all the existing ones will still be on the road, and the last holdouts to electric may well hold onto the cars longer than they otherwise would, so it would probably be 15-20 years after that for the vast majority of them to be gone.

Quote from: kernals12 on April 13, 2021, 09:11:05 PM
Lithium ion battery costs have fallen 97% since 1991.

And based on the continued breakthroughs coming out of research labs all over the world, this progress is not going to stop any time soon. And these advances are being commercialized. Chevrolet is bringing out an electric Silverado pickup truck in 2023 with 400 miles of range. And trucks and buses, which make up a disproportionate share of harmful emissions, will probably go electric sooner as operators are more willing to pay higher upfront costs in exchange for lower fuel and maintenance bills. I think that the electric age is close enough to justify not permanently dismantling a freeway out of air pollution concerns.


You're the first person to bring up cost here and you're not doing much to address any of our other points.  The only one you even bothered to bring up is range, and those stated ranges for vehicles tend to be in ideal conditions with a fully charged battery - and getting to fully charged takes a LONG time.  Realistically, the range on a battery charged to 80% driven the way normal people drive on normal terrain in average conditions is lower, especially when the battery is no longer new.  And even if it isn't, the fact that charging takes a lot longer even only going to 80% means that roadtrips will take longer.

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 13, 2021, 09:43:16 PM
Yes. Let's all go back to talking about New York, everybody! Any other off-topic material (such as the ICE car vs. electric car debate) should be confined to the Off-Topic Board.
This whole thing started because kernals12 decided that electric cars mean that all the people who objected to the plan to cap the Kensington Expressway can be ignored.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

empirestate

Quote from: vdeane on April 12, 2021, 01:31:23 PM
Eh, I wouldn't be surprised if there are some people out there who see high-speed rail as a replacement for the interstate system.  And actually, there is a trail following a similar route to the Thruway!

I suppose that could be. Although high-speed rail is not an outdated concept, so you don't get the humorous paradox in that case.



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