Poll
Question:
What should be done about Daylight Saving Time in the United States (and Canada)?
Option 1: Keep things as they are now.
Option 2: Go to standard time year round.
Option 3: Permanent daylight time year round.
Option 4: Set clocks to half hour ahead of standard time, half hour behind daylight time. This would be permanent.
Option 5: Each individual state/province chooses what to do in their local area.
Option 6: Abolish time altogether.
Option 7: Other (leave a comment)
I figured since a thread on Daylight Saving Time has been ongoing for months, why not a poll on what members of this forum think. I included the US and Canada since both countries do the time changes at the same time (2nd Sunday in March, 1st Sunday in November).
For those wondering, every US state observes DST currently, except for Hawaii, and most of Arizona. None of the US territories observe DST.
add another option:
whatever you do, set the clock AND DON'T TOUCH IT - that is a combo of 2 options you have
Can I vote more than once?
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2018, 03:21:49 PM
Can I vote more than once?
Yes, or change your vote, or even choose more than one option.
Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on November 02, 2018, 03:31:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2018, 03:21:49 PM
Can I vote more than once?
Yes, or change your vote, or even choose more than one option.
Hmmm.. Not sure how to vote more than once.. Put me down as 625 votes for "go to standard time year round," then.
My choice is not on there: Change the DST schedule to the last Sunday in March to the first Sunday in November. In other words, leave the November end date as it is under the current schedule, but move the spring start date a couple of weeks later to coincide with when the clocks go ahead in Europe, simply because it makes doing business more straightforward. The second Sunday in March is simply too early in the year. I will concede, however, that the current date eliminates the issues that occurred when DST started on Easter Sunday!
I do find it a bit absurd that what we call "Standard Time" is in effect for only about four months of the year. But I see no benefit whatsoever from year-round DST because in the winter the majority of people in most of the country would still be commuting both ways in the dark, given that during the winter it's already rather dark prior to the actual "sunset" time.
I think my opinion is pretty well-known: year-round DST.
One reason i'm so in favor of permanent DST is because it would still allow states to opt out of DST if they so choose. Forcing all 50 states to go to standard time would nearly guarantee that New England states (Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Vermont) would ban together and petition the federal government to switch to the Atlantic time zone. Running standard time year-round pretty much guarantees that we increase from 4 to 5 time zones in the Continental US.
Didn't know which option to choose. Should go to what is the equivalent of Daylight Time in some areas, but in doing so, switch to the Standard Time an hour ahead of what is current standard time. The time zone map should be redrawn as such (I used the names of the current time zones, which would have to be renamed).
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1773/29067492267_63d6d1331d.jpg)
I honestly don't care.
Adjust both the start and end dates to match those currently used in Europe. Failing that, just go to permanent standard time.
Move the whole Chicago area where I live into the Eastern time zone. We're east of 90°W longitude, so we SHOULD be in eastern time--which would be DST all year round, in other words. Sunsets before 5pm are depressing as hell.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 02, 2018, 10:19:57 PM
Move the whole Chicago area where I live into the Eastern time zone. We're east of 90°W longitude, so we SHOULD be in eastern time--which would be DST all year round, in other words. Sunsets before 5pm are depressing as hell.
The dividing line should be 82.5°W, not 90°W.
Quote from: 1 on November 02, 2018, 10:22:26 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 02, 2018, 10:19:57 PM
Move the whole Chicago area where I live into the Eastern time zone. We're east of 90°W longitude, so we SHOULD be in eastern time--which would be DST all year round, in other words. Sunsets before 5pm are depressing as hell.
The dividing line should be 82.5°W, not 90°W.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 02, 2018, 10:23:44 PM
Quote from: 1 on November 02, 2018, 10:22:26 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 02, 2018, 10:19:57 PM
Move the whole Chicago area where I live into the Eastern time zone. We're east of 90°W longitude, so we SHOULD be in eastern time--which would be DST all year round, in other words. Sunsets before 5pm are depressing as hell.
The dividing line should be 82.5°W, not 90°W.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Time zones "should" be
centered on the multiples of 15°, not have their boundaries on the multiples of 15°.
Oh good. As if one endless thread about a twice a year event wasn't enough...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 02, 2018, 11:28:39 PM
Oh good. As if one endless thread about a twice a year event wasn't enough...
How about separating these into a separate subforum?
Probably nothing - as long as they move the Cincinnati area to Central Time where it belongs.
Quote from: Eth on November 02, 2018, 10:09:33 PM
Adjust both the start and end dates to match those currently used in Europe. Failing that, just go to permanent standard time.
Why? Why should we follow Europe?
Quote from: hbelkins on November 03, 2018, 11:38:59 AM
Quote from: Eth on November 02, 2018, 10:09:33 PM
Adjust both the start and end dates to match those currently used in Europe. Failing that, just go to permanent standard time.
Why? Why should we follow Europe?
It would just be a reversal of the 2007 DST extension; it has nothing to do with Europe itself.
The utility of changing clocks twice a year is dubious.
I don't much care whether it's permanent DST, permanent standard time, or redrawn time zones. Just pick one and stick with it.
Having said that, my past experimentation with going to UTC-4.5/-5.5/-6.5/ and tweaking the zone boundaries could produce very acceptable results.
(https://n1en.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/map2.png?w=450)
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on November 03, 2018, 11:48:55 AM
(https://n1en.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/map2.png?w=450)
Why are NV, AZ, KS, MN, and NC split? Also, the Toledo area makes no sense.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 02, 2018, 11:28:39 PM
Oh good. As if one endless thread about a twice a year event wasn't enough...
:clap:
Quote from: tradephoric on November 02, 2018, 05:19:54 PM
One reason i'm so in favor of permanent DST is because it would still allow states to opt out of DST if they so choose.
States are already allowed to opt out of DST if they so choose. Permanent DST would not give them that ability; they already have it.
Quote from: tradephoric on November 02, 2018, 05:19:54 PM
Forcing all 50 states to go to standard time would nearly guarantee that New England states (Maine, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, and Vermont) would ban together and petition the federal government to switch to the Atlantic time zone.
OK. I'm fine with that.
Quote from: tradephoric on November 02, 2018, 05:19:54 PM
Running standard time year-round pretty much guarantees that we increase from 4 to 5 time zones in the Continental US.
OK. I'm fine with that.
Quote from: 1 on November 03, 2018, 11:41:30 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 03, 2018, 11:38:59 AM
Quote from: Eth on November 02, 2018, 10:09:33 PM
Adjust both the start and end dates to match those currently used in Europe. Failing that, just go to permanent standard time.
Why? Why should we follow Europe?
It would just be a reversal of the 2007 DST extension; it has nothing to do with Europe itself.
DST in the US didn't jibe with Europe prior to 2007, either.
Quote from: 1 on November 03, 2018, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on November 03, 2018, 11:48:55 AM
(https://n1en.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/map2.png?w=450)
Why are NV, AZ, KS, MN, and NC split? Also, the Toledo area makes no sense.
The map was prepared via algorithm: for each TV market, time zone is assigned based on maximizing the number of days where certain key points in time are "correct" in terms of being light or dark. States are split because they are split across different TV markets. The weirdness for Toledo and Detroit are the result of their being on the line. And some of the blank counties are the result of my having relied on Excel's mapping function which leaves much to be desired.
When I ran the algorithm using the assumption that time zones be whole-hour offsets from UTC, I got this:
(https://n1en.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/map1.png?w=450)
...which is arguably more aesthetically pleasing, but runs into the issue of splitting California and splitting the Northeast Corridor.
In either map you could move the lines, but you start getting into the issue of having more hours that are "wrong", to the point that if you retain anything resembling the current time zones as whole-hour offsets from UTC... the change to/from DST starts to make sense (in terms of optimizing "rightness") annoying though it may be.
Quote from: abefroman329 on November 03, 2018, 12:37:36 PM
Quote from: 1 on November 03, 2018, 11:41:30 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 03, 2018, 11:38:59 AM
Quote from: Eth on November 02, 2018, 10:09:33 PM
Adjust both the start and end dates to match those currently used in Europe. Failing that, just go to permanent standard time.
Why? Why should we follow Europe?
It would just be a reversal of the 2007 DST extension; it has nothing to do with Europe itself.
DST in the US didn't jibe with Europe prior to 2007, either.
Really, my rationale is simply "DST lasts longer than it should", so if I'm going to trim a few weeks off of it, I may as well align it for the sake of convenience. (I also work with people outside North America on a daily basis as part of my job, so this would make explaining any time changes that do occur a bit easier.)
Quote from: 1 on November 03, 2018, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on November 03, 2018, 11:48:55 AM
(https://n1en.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/map2.png?w=450)
Why are NV, AZ, KS, MN, and NC split? Also, the Toledo area makes no sense.
And the Detroit area is a separate island.
I'd go to worldwide UTC ('Zulu') and adjust our schedules accordingly, so instead of it being 13:52 CDT ('UTC-5') as I post this, it would be 1852Z - and nothing else.
:nod:
Mike
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on November 03, 2018, 11:48:55 AM
(https://n1en.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/map2.png?w=450)
My hometown would be in 2 different time zones on this map
Quote from: 1 on November 03, 2018, 11:41:30 AMIt would just be a reversal of the 2007 DST extension; it has nothing to do with Europe itself.
And the only European states that haven't yet (the operative word in most cases) got a fleshed out proposal to abolish DST that have it are: Albania, Andorra, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Norway, San Marino, Serbia, Switzerland, Ukraine, United Kingdom and the mighty Vatican City.
In other words, you wouldn't be copying Europe because most of Europe wouldn't be changing then...
Quote from: tradephoric on November 02, 2018, 05:19:54 PMRunning standard time year-round pretty much guarantees that we increase from 4 to 5 time zones in the Continental US.
So does permanent DST (assuming, in both cases, that one Pacific Time state drops DST/stays on PST, rather than moving to year round PDT/MST*). That, say, Florida is on EDT year-round makes it at least
de facto AST*.
*I'd imagine these names would shift too, but kept current names for ease of reference.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on November 03, 2018, 12:47:18 PM
Quote from: 1 on November 03, 2018, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on November 03, 2018, 11:48:55 AM
(https://n1en.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/map2.png?w=450)
Why are NV, AZ, KS, MN, and NC split? Also, the Toledo area makes no sense.
The map was prepared via algorithm: for each TV market, time zone is assigned based on maximizing the number of days where certain key points in time are "correct" in terms of being light or dark. States are split because they are split across different TV markets. The weirdness for Toledo and Detroit are the result of their being on the line. And some of the blank counties are the result of my having relied on Excel's mapping function which leaves much to be desired.
When I ran the algorithm using the assumption that time zones be whole-hour offsets from UTC, I got this:
(https://n1en.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/map1.png?w=450)
...which is arguably more aesthetically pleasing, but runs into the issue of splitting California and splitting the Northeast Corridor.
In either map you could move the lines, but you start getting into the issue of having more hours that are "wrong", to the point that if you retain anything resembling the current time zones as whole-hour offsets from UTC... the change to/from DST starts to make sense (in terms of optimizing "rightness") annoying though it may be.
My map is pretty similar to the 2nd map, except it has 4 time zones instead of 5. I also used TV markets in determining time zones, which accounts for a couple of counties in WV and NC being on UTC -4 (part of the DC and Norfolk markets, respectively). Since Garrett County, MD is Pittsburgh DMA, it is the only county in MD on UTC -5. My line in NY state and PA is a little bit farther west; only Rochester and Buffalo are part of UTC -5 in NY, while Pittsburgh, Erie, and Altoona/Johnstown are in PA. In VA, the DC, Richmond, Norfolk, Williamsburg, and Harrisonburg DMA's are part of UTC -4. The UTC -5/ -6 line leaves the DMA's along the river such as New Orleans, Memphis, St. Louis, and the Twin Cities on UTC-5. The few counties in eastern OR that are UTC -6 are part of the Boise market, the few in northeastern NV are part of the SLC market, and the one county in AZ is part of the Albuquerque market (and is the only county in AZ that observes DT). The UTC -7 portion in northern ID is part of the Spokane DMA.
Time zones should have nothing to do with TV markets. I can understand not splitting a metro area, but TV markets go way beyond what is typically considered a given city's metro area.
Quote from: english si on November 03, 2018, 04:46:55 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on November 02, 2018, 05:19:54 PMRunning standard time year-round pretty much guarantees that we increase from 4 to 5 time zones in the Continental US.
So does permanent DST (assuming, in both cases, that one Pacific Time state drops DST/stays on PST, rather than moving to year round PDT/MST*). That, say, Florida is on EDT year-round makes it at least de facto AST*.
*I'd imagine these names would shift too, but kept current names for ease of reference.
No Pacific state has shown an interest in running standard-time year round. In fact, in a few days Californians will be voting on a proposal that would pave the way for the state to run permanent DST. Assuming no Pacific state wants to run standard time year-round, there would still be 4 main time-zones if the nation was on permanent DST. OTOH, if the nation eliminates DST completely, New England states will ban together and try to change to the Atlantic time zone. It's bad enough their winters are SHIT, there's no way in hell Bostonians are going to put up with 7:24PM sunsets during the summer solstice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4EUTMPuvHo
The existing DST thread is tedious and repetitive enough that we don't need the same posts repeated in a second thread.