Hay River and the Mackenzie River Highway

[edwaleni]

CN just announced they are dropping service to Hay River NWT and will stop at Enterprise.

There were comments that this is to force the Canadian Government to fund an extension of the Mackenzie River Valley Highway to replace the barges that used to dispatch from Hay River.

Is there a website or plan that lays out what this highway extension would look like?

I also found out that due to low water levels the barges are becoming ineffective at getting commerce up to the communities from Hay River terminal, hence the need for the highway.

I am not from Canada, but would like to understand what/how a new highway would traverse.

[oscar]

CN just announced they are dropping service to Hay River NWT and will stop at Enterprise.

There were comments that this is to force the Canadian Government to fund an extension of the Mackenzie River Valley Highway to replace the barges that used to dispatch from Hay River.
 
Is there a website or plan that lays out what this highway extension would look like?

https://www.inf.gov.nt.ca/en/projects/mackenzie-valley-highway/library lists various studies and other documents relating to conversion of the Mackenzie Valley winter road to an all-season highway.

See also https://www.dot.gov.nt.ca/Highways for a map of the existing winter road network (shown in red, since it's closed in the summer) north of Wrigley.

[JayhawkCO]

Just to make sure I understand, what "service" is being dropped to Hay River? At first I thought CN meant Canadian North Airlines, since they do fly to Hay River, but they don't fly to Enterprise, so I'm not sure I fully get it.

[oscar]

The proposal is for CN Rail to permanently close a wildfire-damaged segment of its rail line to Hay River.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/cn-rail-discontinues-rail-line-from-enterprise-to-hay-river-1.7289686

[JayhawkCO]

The proposal is for CN Rail to permanently close a wildfire-damaged segment of its rail line to Hay River.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/cn-rail-discontinues-rail-line-from-enterprise-to-hay-river-1.7289686

Ah. Thank you. Forgot that's what they called the rail network.

[edwaleni]

CN just announced they are dropping service to Hay River NWT and will stop at Enterprise.

There were comments that this is to force the Canadian Government to fund an extension of the Mackenzie River Valley Highway to replace the barges that used to dispatch from Hay River.
 
Is there a website or plan that lays out what this highway extension would look like?

https://www.inf.gov.nt.ca/en/projects/mackenzie-valley-highway/library lists various studies and other documents relating to conversion of the Mackenzie Valley winter road to an all-season highway.

See also https://www.dot.gov.nt.ca/Highways for a map of the existing winter road network (shown in red, since it's closed in the summer) north of Wrigley.

Thank you for the links for me to research, very much appreciated.

[Rothman]

Just to make sure I understand, what "service" is being dropped to Hay River? At first I thought CN meant Canadian North Airlines, since they do fly to Hay River, but they don't fly to Enterprise, so I'm not sure I fully get it.

Shine on, you crazy diamond.

[Bickendan]

CN just announced they are dropping service to Hay River NWT and will stop at Enterprise.

There were comments that this is to force the Canadian Government to fund an extension of the Mackenzie River Valley Highway to replace the barges that used to dispatch from Hay River.
 
Is there a website or plan that lays out what this highway extension would look like?

https://www.inf.gov.nt.ca/en/projects/mackenzie-valley-highway/library lists various studies and other documents relating to conversion of the Mackenzie Valley winter road to an all-season highway.

See also https://www.dot.gov.nt.ca/Highways for a map of the existing winter road network (shown in red, since it's closed in the summer) north of Wrigley.

I take it by that map, the winter road heading from Yellowknife to Nunavut is not a Territorial road?

[oscar]

See also https://www.dot.gov.nt.ca/Highways for a map of the existing winter road network (shown in red, since it's closed in the summer) north of Wrigley.

I take it by that map, the winter road heading from Yellowknife to Nunavut is not a Territorial road?

Right. It's a private road. Also, it doesn't go to Nunavut anymore, with the closure of the gold and diamond mines in Nunavut previously served by the road.

[Stephane Dumas]

See also https://www.dot.gov.nt.ca/Highways for a map of the existing winter road network (shown in red, since it's closed in the summer) north of Wrigley.

I take it by that map, the winter road heading from Yellowknife to Nunavut is not a Territorial road?

Right. It's a private road. Also, it doesn't go to Nunavut anymore, with the closure of the gold and diamond mines in Nunavut previously served by the road.

Too bad, that road could have been converted into a all-weather road going to Rankin Inlet or Baker Lake to desserve the Kivalliq Region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kivalliq_Region

As for the CN dropping rail service, maybe CN should sell this part of the line to another company and Wikipedia will have to update the entry about the railway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackenzie_Northern_Railway

[oscar]

See also https://www.dot.gov.nt.ca/Highways for a map of the existing winter road network (shown in red, since it's closed in the summer) north of Wrigley.

I take it by that map, the winter road heading from Yellowknife to Nunavut is not a Territorial road?

Right. It's a private road. Also, it doesn't go to Nunavut anymore, with the closure of the gold and diamond mines in Nunavut previously served by the road.

Too bad, that road could have been converted into a all-weather road going to Rankin Inlet or Baker Lake to desserve the Kivalliq Region. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kivalliq_Region

Unlike the winter road along the Mackenzie River, most of the private ice road that once served gold and diamond mines in Nunavut is built on frozen lakes, and those road segments disappear every year then have to be rebuilt from scratch the following winter. Doesn't seem to lend itself to an all-season conversion.

There have been studies of an all-season road from northern Manitoba into Nunavut's Kivalliq region. Absent huge gold/diamond/other precious mineral discoveries along that road, ISTM unlikely to ever happen.

As for the CN dropping rail service, maybe CN should sell this part of the line to another company and Wikipedia will have to update the entry about the railway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mackenzie_Northern_Railway

Problem is the part of the line CN wants to abandon requires about C$15 million in repairs to return it to rail service, as noted in the article cited in reply #3 above. CN thinks that would be an unprofitable investment, unattractive for anyone other than the NWT government. The NWT government says it doesn't want to take over the line or subsidize the repairs, basically "CN makes a lot more money than we do, why can't it find the repair funds somewhere on its ginormous balance sheet?". Looks like the opening moves in a game of chicken, over who ends up paying for the repairs to head off the multi-year process for abandoning the Enterprise-Hay River segment of the line..

[Rick Powell]

Problem is the part of the line CN wants to abandon requires about C$15 million in repairs to return it to rail service, as noted in the article cited in reply #3 above. CN thinks that would be an unprofitable investment, unattractive for anyone other than the NWT government. The NWT government says it doesn't want to take over the line or subsidize the repairs, basically "CN makes a lot more money than we do, why can't it find the repair funds somewhere on its ginormous balance sheet?". Looks like the opening moves in a game of chicken, over who ends up paying for the repairs after the multi-year process for abandoning the Enterprise-Hay River segment of the line..

The railroads serving the great white north of Canada have had a sporadic history of service and non-service, and ambition overcome by running out of funds. The line to Churchill on Hudson Bay (its only overland access) was suspended from May 2017 to December 2018 due to flood damage. The White Pass and Yukon was shuttered in the early 80s when the parallel highway was built and a zinc mine shut down, only to be reborn several years later as a tourist line connecting with the cruise ships that sail the Alaska lower coastline. And then there was the line from Fort St. James to Dease Lake that got partially built and would've made a good dent in the eventual connection to Alaska; the line was fully graded and track built about halfway when the government gave up on the project; trains did access the line for a while to carry harvested lumber to market but the line is currently out of service. There have been successful takeovers by First Nations-led companies of some lines such as the Tshiuetin Rail in Labrador, so that might be an avenue to explore for the line to Hay River.

[Alps]

CN just announced they are dropping service to Hay River NWT and will stop at Enterprise.

There were comments that this is to force the Canadian Government to fund an extension of the Mackenzie River Valley Highway to replace the barges that used to dispatch from Hay River.
 
Is there a website or plan that lays out what this highway extension would look like?

https://www.inf.gov.nt.ca/en/projects/mackenzie-valley-highway/library lists various studies and other documents relating to conversion of the Mackenzie Valley winter road to an all-season highway.

See also https://www.dot.gov.nt.ca/Highways for a map of the existing winter road network (shown in red, since it's closed in the summer) north of Wrigley.

The winter road map, when I click on a segment of a road that is open, says "Road banned 100%" under the weight limit.  One or two say "75%" instead. Every road isn't closed right now and I assume things are allowed up to the maximum listed, so what does "Road banned" mean with that percentage?

[oscar]

The winter road map, when I click on a segment of a road that is open, says "Road banned 100%" under the weight limit.  One or two say "75%" instead. Every road isn't closed right now and I assume things are allowed up to the maximum listed, so what does "Road banned" mean with that percentage?

My guess, based on press reports about road problems after spring thaws, is that "Road banned __%" means your load can go up to that percentage of the stated legal limit, but no higher without prior approval of the Ministry of Infrastructure (for some roads, like the highway between Inuvik and Tuktoyaktuk, at least when I drove it in 2018 overweight loads were never approved). The percentage is at least temporarily lower on roads, like route 7 in the Fort Liard area, when and where the subsurface is too soft (especially in the spring) to support loads at the full legal limit.

I agree that "Road banned" is an odd term.

[edwaleni]

The railroads serving the great white north of Canada have had a sporadic history of service and non-service, and ambition overcome by running out of funds. The line to Churchill on Hudson Bay (its only overland access) was suspended from May 2017 to December 2018 due to flood damage. The White Pass and Yukon was shuttered in the early 80s when the parallel highway was built and a zinc mine shut down, only to be reborn several years later as a tourist line connecting with the cruise ships that sail the Alaska lower coastline. And then there was the line from Fort St. James to Dease Lake that got partially built and would've made a good dent in the eventual connection to Alaska; the line was fully graded and track built about halfway when the government gave up on the project; trains did access the line for a while to carry harvested lumber to market but the line is currently out of service. There have been successful takeovers by First Nations-led companies of some lines such as the Tshiuetin Rail in Labrador, so that might be an avenue to explore for the line to Hay River.

An entity owned by Carnival Cruise Lines now owns the White Pass & Yukon.

They recently invested in new engines from NRE and put the old ones (except 2) up for sale.

Carnival was looking to re-establish excursion service over the border into Canada, but the pandemic put a hold on those plans and may never come to be for a few more years. There was talk of building up a tourism business in Whitehorse, with lodges, seasonal resorts, etc.

A long term port agreement was finally agreed to to expand the cruise ship terminal and make room for a new mineral/freight terminal. If they can get more freight on the line, it will pay for the new passenger cars to get these excursions over the pass year round.

But I digress, back to Hay River.

[Rothman]

Having taken the White Pass & Yukon over into British Columbia, having the Walmart of cruise lines take it over doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy all over.

[edwaleni]

Having taken the White Pass & Yukon over into British Columbia, having the Walmart of cruise lines take it over doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy all over.

Air North and Air Canada have dailies to and from Vancouver if the concept of ownership bothers you that much.

[Rick Powell]

Carnival was looking to re-establish excursion service over the border into Canada, but the pandemic put a hold on those plans and may never come to be for a few more years. There was talk of building up a tourism business in Whitehorse, with lodges, seasonal resorts, etc.

A long term port agreement was finally agreed to to expand the cruise ship terminal and make room for a new mineral/freight terminal. If they can get more freight on the line, it will pay for the new passenger cars to get these excursions over the pass year round.

The WP&Y resumed full service across the border to Bennett and Fraser BC and Carcross YT in 2023. I don't think they are looking to haul freight any time soon; their tourist business is back to pre-Covid levels, and upgrading the line for heavy freight might not be worth it due to infrastructure costs and potential tourist train interference.