AARoads Forum

This poll is related to the proposal to merge the Ohio Valley board (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32114.0). If the result of that question is "no", the result of this poll will be null and void.

Feel free to leave your feedback in this thread.

For this poll, I voted to put KY in the Midwest.  If the Ohio Valley board is removed, it would seem easiest to maintain KY with the Midwest.  For one, it would keep nearly all of the old Ohio Valley board together into the new Midwestern board.  It would also be easier to discuss the Cincinnati suburbs and Louisville and any other topics involving the Ohio River border of KY (including bridges) within the same board as OH and IN.

In some ways, I (and many others) view KY as a Southeastern state because of the way that collegiate sports teams line up, southern accents that are heavily found in KY, and KY's history as a slave state (but not Confederate).  Yet, because this forum is one that discusses the roads of a state (and not generally history or politics), it seems to make sense to make the border between the Midwest and Southeast the KY/TN border as opposed to the Ohio River.  This ensures that all discussions of the OH River bridges that involve KY would be in one board and not possibly in two boards.  (Obviously, the bridges in WV-OH and in PA could be in other boards.)

I went with "Midwest" - but that selection (for me) is pretty much tied with "Mid-Atlantic"  (even though I wouldn't consider KY itself as a Mid-Atlantic state, I'd probably see a lot less of it's thread(s) in the Southeast or Mid-South groups (since I don't follow those).

Living in Southern IL/just north of Paducah and Western KY, I vote Midwest with Mid-South as the 2nd favorite, at least until I-69 is resolved at the KY/TN border

Southeast.

While KY may have plenty of real-world ties to TN, in terms of roads discussion on the forum, the only cross pollination I can see is I-69, whenever the project at the state line happens.  As such, I voted to put KY in the Midwest for forum purposes.

I'm thinking about it in more general terms, rather than what specific projects/discussions are tied to adjacent states, and I think Kentucky is much more a southeastern state than a midwestern one. I'd be OK with Mid-South too, but keep in mind that most TN discussion (including the pinned TN state thread) is in the Southeast board.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 06, 2022, 12:36:07 AM
Southeast.

Quote from: webny99 on September 06, 2022, 02:34:49 PM
I'm thinking about it in more general terms, rather than what specific projects/discussions are tied to adjacent states, and I think Kentucky is much more a southeastern state than a midwestern one. I'd be OK with Mid-South too, but keep in mind that most TN discussion (including the pinned TN state thread) is in the Southeast board.

Our resident Kentuckian, who works for KYTC, votes Southeast for future consideration. I didn't vote that way, but I think hbelkins's input should have a little more weight here than the average forum goer/poster on this question

Southeast would be a fine landing spot for the Bluegrass State, should the Ohio Valley board move to the Archives

A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:55:43 PM
A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

Ohio River Bridges is my thought. The I-71/75 Bridge, the I-69 Bridge, even Illinois has to replace the US 51 Cairo bridge to Kentucky

Those bridge projects are big projects with Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois, respectively

Mid-Atlantic.

I voted for Southeast as I think of Kentucky as the beginning of the south and the Ohio River makes a good boundary.

Quote from: ilpt4u on September 06, 2022, 08:50:57 PM

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:55:43 PM
A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

Ohio River Bridges is my thought. The I-71/75 Bridge, the I-69 Bridge, even Illinois has to replace the US 51 Cairo bridge to Kentucky

Those bridge projects are big projects with Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois, respectively

That was my rationale as well. Culturally, Kentucky is tied more to Tennessee and the southeast, but because of the Ohio River, road projects are more tied to Indiana and Ohio. I think of grouping states in terms of shared road projects more than traditional geographic divisions.

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:55:43 PM
A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

According to the federal government, Appalachia extends all the way west to Mammoth Cave.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 07, 2022, 09:35:30 PM

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:55:43 PM
A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

According to the federal government, Appalachia extends all the way west to Mammoth Cave.

I believe it. Since my post Southeast has almost caught up (: This'll be a fun discussion with staff if it ends up this close.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 07, 2022, 08:27:25 AM

Quote from: ilpt4u on September 06, 2022, 08:50:57 PM

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:55:43 PM
A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

Ohio River Bridges is my thought. The I-71/75 Bridge, the I-69 Bridge, even Illinois has to replace the US 51 Cairo bridge to Kentucky

Those bridge projects are big projects with Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois, respectively

That was my rationale as well. Culturally, Kentucky is tied more to Tennessee and the southeast, but because of the Ohio River, road projects are more tied to Indiana and Ohio. I think of grouping states in terms of shared road projects more than traditional geographic divisions.

However, trying to keep metro areas in a single region is a big reason why we had split states to begin with. If split states is what we're trying to avoid, it makes the most sense to just use geographical divisions.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 07, 2022, 09:35:30 PM

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:55:43 PM
A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

According to the federal government, Appalachia extends all the way west to Mammoth Cave.

And the guys of Wikipedia said then Appalachia extends further southwest down to Northeast Mississippi state but that'll be for another topic. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachia

Quote from: Stephane Dumas on September 08, 2022, 12:25:16 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on September 07, 2022, 09:35:30 PM

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:55:43 PM
A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

According to the federal government, Appalachia extends all the way west to Mammoth Cave.

And the guys of Wikipedia said then Appalachia extends further southwest down to Northeast Mississippi state but that'll be for another topic. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachia

Appalachia <in Kentucky>.
That seemed implied in the context of the discussion. ;)

Kentucky is considered a border state, neither truly in the Midwest or South. However, it is more associated with the south. The University of Kentucky was a founding member of the Southeastern Conference (SEC) in 1932.

My experience with Kentucky is limited to the immediate Louisville area and the I-24 corridor. Louisville...felt like a city, I guess? Gun to my head, I'd say it felt more South than Midwest, but I didn't explore enough around the area to feel all that confident making such a statement.

There is no question that the I-24 corridor is solidly Southern.

Quote from: Alps on September 07, 2022, 10:37:53 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on September 07, 2022, 09:35:30 PM

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:55:43 PM
A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

According to the federal government, Appalachia extends all the way west to Mammoth Cave.

I believe it. Since my post Southeast has almost caught up (: This'll be a fun discussion with staff if it ends up this close.

Meanwhile when I picture the southeast, I imagine something even flatter than Illinois.

Quote from: Alps on September 07, 2022, 10:37:53 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on September 07, 2022, 09:35:30 PM

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:55:43 PM
A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

According to the federal government, Appalachia extends all the way west to Mammoth Cave.

I believe it. Since my post Southeast has almost caught up (: This'll be a fun discussion with staff if it ends up this close.

Quote from: Stephane Dumas on September 08, 2022, 12:25:16 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on September 07, 2022, 09:35:30 PM

Quote from: Alps on September 06, 2022, 07:55:43 PM
A good portion of KY is hills. It really lines up better with either TN or VA/WV than the Midwest. I don't get why so many people are voting Midwest on this one.

According to the federal government, Appalachia extends all the way west to Mammoth Cave.

And the guys of Wikipedia said then Appalachia extends further southwest down to Northeast Mississippi state but that'll be for another topic. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachia

My point was that if you look at the boundaries of the Appalachian Regional Commission, you'll see that the ARC area extends to Edmonson County.

The original definition of the ARC was to be the counties actually in the Appalachian Mountains, plus bordering counties. Most consider Madison and Clark counties to be in the Bluegrass region, but the southeastern part of Madison and the very extreme eastern part of Clark are definitely mountainous, so they're in the ARC service area. And the Tennessee border counties west of I-75 (McCreary, Wayne, Clinton, and Cumberland) are definitely in the mountains.

Those boundaries are very generous in Georgia. No way should Gwinnett, Douglas, or Carroll County be considered Appalachian in any respect.

If you are going to realign then I vote for Kentucky to join the Pac10.  They need all the help they can get and 12 eastern games.

While I understand the logic in breaking up some states, putting W. TN and N. MS with AR/LA/TX doesn't make much sense.  90% of the Memphis metro population is in TN and MS.  The funding comes from Nashville and the family/migration/economic ties are stronger to the east than to the west.  Geo/topo differences at the river.  Keeping TN and MS each whole and in the Southeast makes more sense, although I admit the Southeast is already a large region for the board.

Moving Memphis west just because of 2 bridges, very iffy proposals for another, and 10% of the metro seems forced.

JMHO.  The world will keep turning either way.

Quote from: ilpt4u on September 05, 2022, 05:04:49 PM
Living in Southern IL/just north of Paducah and Western KY, I vote Midwest with Mid-South as the 2nd favorite, at least until I-69 is resolved at the KY/TN border

Having lived in southern IL (Herrin), I wouldn't have voted Midwest.  Mid-South would have been my vote.

Quote from: kphoger on September 13, 2022, 04:11:03 PM

Quote from: ilpt4u on September 05, 2022, 05:04:49 PM
Living in Southern IL/just north of Paducah and Western KY, I vote Midwest with Mid-South as the 2nd favorite, at least until I-69 is resolved at the KY/TN border

Having lived in southern IL (Herrin), I wouldn't have voted Midwest.  Mid-South would have been my vote.

I did put in another post that Central States would be even better for Illinois on the whole, especially concerning Metro STL and various MS River Crossing projects that Illinois is involved with

If IL went Central, KY definitely not Midwest then, but Southeast or Mid-South, certainly

Quote from: armadillo speedbump on September 13, 2022, 04:05:17 PM
While I understand the logic in breaking up some states, putting W. TN and N. MS with AR/LA/TX doesn't make much sense.  90% of the Memphis metro population is in TN and MS.  The funding comes from Nashville and the family/migration/economic ties are stronger to the east than to the west.  Geo/topo differences at the river.  Keeping TN and MS each whole and in the Southeast makes more sense, although I admit the Southeast is already a large region for the board.

Moving Memphis west just because of 2 bridges, very iffy proposals for another, and 10% of the metro seems forced.

JMHO.  The world will keep turning either way.

We might revisit other regions in the future, but it will have to be some time after the Ohio Valley board disappears. We will have enough on our plate enacting this realignment without bringing up another one in the middle of it.

Having Kentucky in the Ohio River Valley Board is hilarious. Either way, KY stays with the Midwest. Road projects of the Ohio River say so.

For future consideration:

Mid-South
Tennessee
Kentucky
North Carolina

Deep South or South or Southeast
Georgia
Florida
South Carolina
Alabama
Mississippi

South Central or Southwest
Texas
Arkansas
Oklahoma
Louisiana

The Mid-South board is a misnomer, as Texas is most certainly not located in the Mid-South. With five major metropolitan centers, Texas is so large and consequential, it perhaps deserves a board in and of itself.

NC should be with SC and probably GA too. I would group them as:

TX, LA, OK, AR

KY, TN, AL, MS

FL, GA, SC, NC

We might revisit other regions in the future, but it will have to be some time after the Ohio Valley board disappears. We will have enough on our plate enacting this realignment without bringing up another one in the middle of it.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 14, 2022, 03:50:24 AM
We might revisit other regions in the future, but it will have to be some time after the Ohio Valley board disappears. We will have enough on our plate enacting this realignment without bringing up another one in the middle of it.

Yes, indeed. I, and I'm sure many other board members, appreciated the hard work you're putting to realign the boards. Thank you!

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 14, 2022, 03:50:24 AM
We might revisit other regions in the future, but it will have to be some time after the Ohio Valley board disappears. We will have enough on our plate enacting this realignment without bringing up another one in the middle of it.

Has the decision been made and I missed the official announcement?

Since the "remove the Ohio Valley board" question passed by a wide margin, we are committed to making that change (and I have already started the process of moving the oldest threads to their new homes). The one thing that is still somewhat in the air (and thus why we haven't made an "official" announcement) is where Kentucky is ending up. Because the poll was so close (and the result was surprising to us, my original proposal to the other staff presupposed it would end up in Southeast), we are essentially just verifying that moving Kentucky to Midwest/Great Lakes will not cause any issues the community may not have evaluated during the polling period and that we are all on board with implementing that change.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 14, 2022, 10:53:39 PM
Since the "remove the Ohio Valley board" question passed by a wide margin, we are committed to making that change (and I have already started the process of moving the oldest threads to their new homes). The one thing that is still somewhat in the air (and thus why we haven't made an "official" announcement) is where Kentucky is ending up. Because the poll was so close (and the result was surprising to us, my original proposal to the other staff presupposed it would end up in Southeast), we are essentially just verifying that moving Kentucky to Midwest/Great Lakes will not cause any issues the community may not have evaluated during the polling period and that we are all on board with implementing that change.

I want to preface this next comment with this first: I appreciate the work being done to find a new Kentucky home here @aaroads. And I fully respect the Admins' decision to place Kentucky where they feel best, including with Poll input

That said, since the polling was close, and with no majority, would a second round/runoff poll be possible with Midwest and Southeast as the only two options? Or are you all too far along in "the process"  for this possibility?

Quote from: ilpt4u on September 14, 2022, 11:10:04 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 14, 2022, 10:53:39 PM
Since the "remove the Ohio Valley board" question passed by a wide margin, we are committed to making that change (and I have already started the process of moving the oldest threads to their new homes). The one thing that is still somewhat in the air (and thus why we haven't made an "official" announcement) is where Kentucky is ending up. Because the poll was so close (and the result was surprising to us, my original proposal to the other staff presupposed it would end up in Southeast), we are essentially just verifying that moving Kentucky to Midwest/Great Lakes will not cause any issues the community may not have evaluated during the polling period and that we are all on board with implementing that change.

I want to preface this next comment with this first: I appreciate the work being done to find a new Kentucky home here @aaroads. And I fully respect the Admins' decision to place Kentucky where they feel best, including with Poll input

That said, since the polling was close, and with no majority, would a second round/runoff poll be possible with Midwest and Southeast as the only two options? Or are you all too far along in "the process"  for this possibility?

33 southern votes, 34 othern votes

My one thought that may fall under "issues the community may not have evaluated" is that many users seemed to prefer Midwest/Great Lakes for Kentucky on the basis of its connectivity road-wise to other Midwestern states, including several major Ohio River crossings and upcoming projects. However, defining regions in this way (to keep all shared projects in the same board as much as possible) is what led to split states in the first place, which is exactly what we're trying to reduce/avoid with the removal of the Ohio Valley board. There seems to be general consensus that Kentucky is, indeed, a southeastern state (and just click Kentucky on Google Maps: the opening description is "Kentucky, a southeastern state"), so trying to fit it into another board because of one or more specific threads/road projects/etc. seems to me like a textbook example of "not seeing the forest for the trees".

In the big picture, since this is more or less a permanent change, I'd much rather have the state located in the region it's more closely associated with, and let the individual threads fall where they may. The alternative is that years from now, when we have users questioning why Kentucky, a southeastern state, is in the Midwest board, and the answer is more or less, "It made sense when there was several projects along the border with other states, but those were completed years ago now", the decision to place Kentucky with the Midwest is going to look rather short-sighted (unless there's a broader shift in public perception about where Kentucky is located, which is outside anyone's control).


I would support a run-off poll if that's something that would be considered (although I'm obviously biased given what I just stated above).

I'm not entirely certain the "Kentucky roads more associated with the states along the northern border" is necessarily a temporary situation, given the location of Kentucky's major population centers.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Kentucky_population_map.png)

In any case, any future confusion could be skirted by retitling the board "Midwest, Great Lakes, and Ohio Valley".

The "Midwest, Great Lakes" forum seems to have solidified with the combining of Indiana and Minnesota into one forum. Moreover, all the states that now comprise Midwest, Great Lakes "touch on" a Great Lake. As it now is, that forum category seems appropriate and complete.

As for Kentucky, perhaps, for now, it's best to put it the Southeast. Later, if so desired, it, perhaps, could be moved into a new Mid-South forum, along with Tennessee and North Carolina. But that's a decision for later.

And, speaking of the Mid-South forum, perhaps that forum should be retitled "South Central". That would more accurately reflect the geographical location of Texas and nearby states. Moreover, that's how that area of the country is usually referred to: South Central.

One more forum heading matter. Perhaps the Pacific Southwest forum, comprised of California, Nevada, and Hawaii, should be renamed to "Pacific West". Again, that heading would more correctly reflect the location of those states. None of the aforementioned states are in the Southwest.

Please be assured your tireless efforts to reorganize the regional boards are very much appreciated.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 14, 2022, 08:11:20 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 14, 2022, 03:50:24 AM
We might revisit other regions in the future, but it will have to be some time after the Ohio Valley board disappears. We will have enough on our plate enacting this realignment without bringing up another one in the middle of it.

Has the decision been made and I missed the official announcement?

I don't think there was an announcement but the vote is closed and Midwest got the most votes.

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 15, 2022, 12:57:48 AM
I'm not entirely certain the "Kentucky roads more associated with the states along the northern border" is necessarily a temporary situation, given the location of Kentucky's major population centers.

[img]

In any case, any future confusion could be skirted by retitling the board "Midwest, Great Lakes, and Ohio Valley".

That's 100% fair, and I wasn't trying to say that ALL overlap will be temporary, since there will always be discussions that overlap with adjacent states, but I was just trying to zoom out and and look at it holistically, rather than in terms of "what threads will go in what board".

There's also the fact that much of southern IL/IN/OH have as much or more in common with the south than they do the midwest, so the parts of those states adjacent to Kentucky aren't exactly clear-cut Midwest either (they just happen to be part of states that are, in the same way that Louisville/Cincinnati suburbs aren't exactly clear-cut Southeast despite being in a state that is (IMO)).

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 15, 2022, 12:57:48 AM
In any case, any future confusion could be skirted by retitling the board "Midwest, Great Lakes, and Ohio Valley".

or .. Midwest, Great Lakes, and whatever tf Kentucky is

I'm just going to throw this out there...

I've traveled all over Kentucky, and have been in all 120 counties multiple times. I've driven the main roads and the back roads.

If you look at business names that incorporate a region of the United States, you'll find that there are a plethora of places with "Southern" in their names and very few with "Midwest" in their names.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 15, 2022, 09:44:18 AM
I'm just going to throw this out there...

I've traveled all over Kentucky, and have been in all 120 counties multiple times. I've driven the main roads and the back roads.

If you look at business names that incorporate a region of the United States, you'll find that there are a plethora of places with "Southern" in their names and very few with "Midwest" in their names.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that Kentucky is culturally more Midwestern than Southern. What I, and a plurality of voters have suggested is that due to the Ohio River, there are more road project overlaps with Indiana, Ohio and Illinois than with other states.

This was a close vote. If this was Wikipedia, the likely decision would be to extend it for another week.

Also wondering if a different voting system would have changed things. If the Mid-South people voted Southeast and the Mid-Atlantic people voted Midwest, that would have been 34-33 – a difference of only one vote instead of three, and who knows if Mid-Atlantic would actually have put Midwest over Southeast. (This is why I suggested approval voting instead of plurality voting.)

I'm neutral on the actual question itself and did not vote in it.

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 15, 2022, 09:47:20 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on September 15, 2022, 09:44:18 AM
I'm just going to throw this out there...

I've traveled all over Kentucky, and have been in all 120 counties multiple times. I've driven the main roads and the back roads.

If you look at business names that incorporate a region of the United States, you'll find that there are a plethora of places with "Southern" in their names and very few with "Midwest" in their names.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that Kentucky is culturally more Midwestern than Southern. What I, and a plurality of voters have suggested is that due to the Ohio River, there are more road project overlaps with Indiana, Ohio and Illinois than with other states.

... however - and this is what I've tried to explain in my previous two posts - nobody is debating that either, but that doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that Kentucky should be in the Midwest board.

Shared project threads are maybe, what, 15-20% of all Kentucky discussion, at most? If we're agreed that Kentucky is more southern than midwestern, putting it in the Midwest board is making those 15-20% of threads easier to find, while making the other 80-85% of threads harder to find.

The worst-case scenario for putting Kentucky in Southeast is that someone looking for a specific project thread - already knowing that it spans two states - has to check the boards for both states.

The worst-case scenario for putting Kentucky in Midwest is that someone looking to start or add to a Kentucky discussion either a) unknowingly posts it in the Southeast board, and it has to be moved, or b) has to search two boards to find where it should be located, and is left wondering why it's in Midwest when it's traditionally a southern state.

Quote from: 1 on September 15, 2022, 09:50:44 AM
This was a close vote. If this was Wikipedia, the likely decision would be to extend it for another week.

Also wondering if a different voting system would have changed things. If the Mid-South people voted Southeast and the Mid-Atlantic people voted Midwest, that would have been 34-33 – a difference of only one vote instead of three, and who knows if Mid-Atlantic would actually have put Midwest over Southeast. (This is why I suggested approval voting instead of plurality voting.)

Yes, I don't think it's fair to assume that anyone who voted for Mid-Atlantic had Midwest as their second choice.

When looking at the traditional US divisions, Southeast also includes Virginia and West Virginia. That won't be the case here, but if you voted for Mid-Atlantic in hopes of grouping KY with WV/VA, Southeast would probably make more sense as your second choice.

The reason I voted for Southeast was mainly because I view KY as a Southern state, but now that I think about it, I wonder if it would be worth actually moving it there, due to the northern border touching the Midwestern states (and therefore, cities like Evansville, IN and Cincinnati, OH, which would be a valid argument against my decision). With it being the only state left in the Ohio Valley category, I'm leaning more towards Midwest, even though I never see it as such. If we were to vote for a second choice, I'd reluctantly take Midwest, because Mid-Atlantic just does not fit, and the northern border alone prevents it from being categorized as Mid-South, which I feel is where all of TN should be anyway.

Quote from: webny99 on September 15, 2022, 10:08:40 AM

Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on September 15, 2022, 09:47:20 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on September 15, 2022, 09:44:18 AM
I'm just going to throw this out there...

I've traveled all over Kentucky, and have been in all 120 counties multiple times. I've driven the main roads and the back roads.

If you look at business names that incorporate a region of the United States, you'll find that there are a plethora of places with "Southern" in their names and very few with "Midwest" in their names.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that Kentucky is culturally more Midwestern than Southern. What I, and a plurality of voters have suggested is that due to the Ohio River, there are more road project overlaps with Indiana, Ohio and Illinois than with other states.

... however - and this is what I've tried to explain in my previous two posts - nobody is debating that either, but that doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that Kentucky should be in the Midwest board.

Shared project threads are maybe, what, 15-20% of all Kentucky discussion, at most? If we're agreed that Kentucky is more southern than midwestern, putting it in the Midwest board is making those 15-20% of threads easier to find, while making the other 80-85% of threads harder to find.

The worst-case scenario for putting Kentucky in Southeast is that someone looking for a specific project thread - already knowing that it spans two states - has to check the boards for both states.

The worst-case scenario for putting Kentucky in Midwest is that someone looking to start or add to a Kentucky discussion either a) unknowingly posts it in the Southeast board, and it has to be moved, or b) has to search two boards to find where it should be located, and is left wondering why it's in Midwest when it's traditionally a southern state.

Having Kentucky listed among the Midwest states on the main regional page makes those 80-85% easier to find.

In my mind, the point of the regional boards is so people can easily find the state they're looking for.  If they want to find info about a project in Kentucky, then all that matters is what region of the country that state is in–not how its road projects related to other states' road projects.  If people think of Kentucky as a Midwestern state, then they'll look in a Midwest board for Kentucky-related topics.  If they think it's a Southern state, then they'll look in a Southern board for related topics.

I missed the deadline to vote in the poll but wanted to add that I would have voted Midwest-Great Lakes for the same Ohio River related reasons that others have stated.

For example, if Kentucky goes to the Southeast board, which board will receive the 1357 post "I-69 Ohio River Bridge" thread or the 560 post "I-265 Ohio River Bridge" thread, or the various Brent Spence Bridge threads etc. ?

Quote from: Buck87 on September 15, 2022, 12:03:51 PM
I missed the deadline to vote in the poll but wanted to add that I would have voted Midwest-Great Lakes for the same Ohio River related reasons that others have stated.

For example, if Kentucky goes to the Southeast board, which board will receive the 1357 post "I-69 Ohio River Bridge" thread or the 560 post "I-265 Ohio River Bridge" thread, or the various Brent Spence Bridge threads etc. ?

See, I still think that's not seeing the forest for the trees.

See the quote below:

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 04, 2022, 07:06:00 PM
Edited to add: The intent would be for the border to be "fuzzed" around the metro areas. Metro Cincinnati topics would go to Midwest and metro Louisville topics would go to whichever board Kentucky ends up in.

So, even though I don't think it's a big deal which board an individual thread ends up in...

-Brent Spence Bridge would go in Midwest-Great Lakes by association with Cincinnati
-I-69 Ohio River Bridge would go in Midwest-Great Lakes by association with Evansville
-I-265 Ohio River Bridge would go in Southeast by association with Louisville

^^^
Readers tend to look at their areas of interest. The typical result is two regions get parallel threads like the I-49 connection between Arkansas (Mid-South) and Missouri (Central States).

Quote from: webny99 on September 15, 2022, 10:08:40 AM
The worst-case scenario for putting Kentucky in Midwest is that someone looking to start or add to a Kentucky discussion either a) unknowingly posts it in the Southeast board, and it has to be moved, or b) has to search two boards to find where it should be located, and is left wondering why it's in Midwest when it's traditionally a southern state.

I mean, the board listing expliclity says which states are in which forum. If someone fails to read that and does something stupid that causes them extra effort as a result, that is 100% on them.

I am personally in favor of whole states staying together (no breaking up of states into regions).

To the mods, is it possible for projects that span two states that are not in the same region to have cross linked threads? For example, if Kentucky were in the Southeast and Indiana in the Midwest, a thread discussing the I-69 Ohio River Crossing could appear on both boards? And when clicked they open the same thread? I know the breadcrumbs would get wonky, but it could be a solution. Or (using my example) since Kentucky is building the bridge, the thread would live on the Southeast board (or where ever KY ends up). And when you click on the same thread on the Midwest board, you see a message saying this thread has been moved (like we see when a mod moves a thread) redirecting people to the correct thread?

Just an idea. I have no idea if it is technically possible. Just thought I would offer a suggestion. In the end, I will live with whatever decisions the mods make. I know being a moderator probably can be difficult and you'll never please everyone. But, you all do a good job!

If we're talking about individual projects, I would house both the I-69 and Brent Spence threads in whatever board Kentucky lands, mainly because Kentucky owns the river and the majority of the land work on both projects is going to happen south of the state line. Very little new construction will be needed to link the I-69 bridge to the existing freeway on the Indiana side, while a significant amount of new road will need to be built in Kentucky. And regarding the Brent Spence, the construction is going to extend all the way back to the top of the hill at the Dixie Highway interchange.

Quote from: CardInLex on September 16, 2022, 11:18:16 AM
I am personally in favor of whole states staying together (no breaking up of states into regions).

To the mods, is it possible for projects that span two states that are not in the same region to have cross linked threads? For example, if Kentucky were in the Southeast and Indiana in the Midwest, a thread discussing the I-69 Ohio River Crossing could appear on both boards? And when clicked they open the same thread? I know the breadcrumbs would get wonky, but it could be a solution. Or (using my example) since Kentucky is building the bridge, the thread would live on the Southeast board (or where ever KY ends up). And when you click on the same thread on the Midwest board, you see a message saying this thread has been moved (like we see when a mod moves a thread) redirecting people to the correct thread?

Just an idea. I have no idea if it is technically possible. Just thought I would offer a suggestion. In the end, I will live with whatever decisions the mods make. I know being a moderator probably can be difficult and you'll never please everyone. But, you all do a good job!

No, a thread is specific to the board it's in.

OK. After browsing the thread, I've shifted my thoughts. Although Kentucky is often grouped with the southern states (Southeastern Conference, etc.), road and bridge wise it seems more connected to Indiana and Ohio.

We need to move forward. Nothing will be perfect. Having Kentucky placed in the Midwest, Great Lakes is perhaps the best solution at this time.

Quote from: ITB on September 17, 2022, 06:33:45 AM

OK. After browsing the thread, I've shifted my thoughts. Although Kentucky is often grouped with the southern states (Southeastern Conference, etc.), road and bridge wise it seems more connected to Indiana and Ohio.

We need to move forward. Nothing will be perfect. Having Kentucky placed in the Midwest, Great Lakes is perhaps the best solution at this time.

I don't know if I've ever seen someone work so hard to come to the wrong conclusion.

Quote from: ITB on September 17, 2022, 06:33:45 AM

OK. After browsing the thread, I've shifted my thoughts. Although Kentucky is often grouped with the southern states (Southeastern Conference, etc.), road and bridge wise it seems more connected to Indiana and Ohio.

We need to move forward. Nothing will be perfect. Having Kentucky placed in the Midwest, Great Lakes is perhaps the best solution at this time.

But that isn't how people search for topics, though, right?

I want to discuss a project that's being planned on Route XXX in Kentucky.  Let's see, which regional board should I look in for a discussion about that?  Well, some people think of Kentucky as a southern state, but others don't.  Others think of it as kind of half-southern, maybe like a mid-South kind of state.  Hmmm...  Well, now that I think about it, though, a lot of Kentucky's roads and bridges are connected to states in the Midwest that border the Great Lakes.  So, even though Kentucky isn't in the Midwest and is nowhere near the Great Lakes, I'm betting discussions about it are most likely in the Midwest & Great Lakes regional board.

And yeah, I get that the states are included in the description of each board.  But, if the state you're looking for isn't even in the top two regions that naturally come to mind, then, at that point, what's even the point of having regional board names to begin with?

Quote from: Rothman on September 17, 2022, 09:39:07 AM

Quote from: ITB on September 17, 2022, 06:33:45 AM

OK. After browsing the thread, I've shifted my thoughts. Although Kentucky is often grouped with the southern states (Southeastern Conference, etc.), road and bridge wise it seems more connected to Indiana and Ohio.

We need to move forward. Nothing will be perfect. Having Kentucky placed in the Midwest, Great Lakes is perhaps the best solution at this time.

I don't know if I've ever seen someone work so hard to come to the wrong conclusion.

At a core level, I believe Kentucky is more Southeast than Midwest, Great Lakes. The poll results, however, tilt toward the Midwest. As such, in the interest of moving forward, perhaps its best to follow that guidance, at least for the time being. In the long run, it may be worthwhile to create a Mid-South regional board, comprised of Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina. I know, I know. We already have a Mid-South regional board. But that board seems to be a misnomer and, perhaps, is better titled South Central.
 

I would rename "Midwest-Great Lakes" as simply "Great Lakes" and rename "Central States" to "Midwest." I think of Kansas and Oklahoma and Nebraska as being in the midwest as much as I do Illinois, Indiana, or Ohio.

Perhaps a criterion for being in a midwestern board is that the state is flat.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 17, 2022, 07:09:19 PM
I would rename "Midwest-Great Lakes" as simply "Great Lakes" and rename "Central States" to "Midwest." I think of Kansas and Oklahoma and Nebraska as being in the midwest as much as I do Illinois, Indiana, or Ohio.

Perhaps a criterion for being in a midwestern board is that the state is flat.

Guess we're moving IL to the new Midwest board then.

I have to admit, I was in the "group it by the road projects" camp when voting took place, but after someone mentioned other split states in other boards like Mississippi, now I'm not so sure.  I figured it made sense to keep the states on either side of the bridge projects together, but then I realized that the same thing will likely happen elsewhere if the "un-split the states" trend continues.

If you're south of the Ohio and west of the main Appalachian mountain chains, you are southern as far as I'm concerned.

Kentucky's road network also looks and feels way more southern, in no small part because it was surveyed according to the old British metes-and-bounds systems instead of the regular PLSS grid used in Indiana, most of Ohio, and the rest of the Midwest.

Just remove the Midwest from the name and call the merged forum Great Lakes and Ohio Valley.

Quote from: ITB on September 17, 2022, 01:38:25 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 17, 2022, 09:39:07 AM

Quote from: ITB on September 17, 2022, 06:33:45 AM

OK. After browsing the thread, I've shifted my thoughts. Although Kentucky is often grouped with the southern states (Southeastern Conference, etc.), road and bridge wise it seems more connected to Indiana and Ohio.

We need to move forward. Nothing will be perfect. Having Kentucky placed in the Midwest, Great Lakes is perhaps the best solution at this time.

I don't know if I've ever seen someone work so hard to come to the wrong conclusion.

At a core level, I believe Kentucky is more Southeast than Midwest, Great Lakes. The poll results, however, tilt toward the Midwest. As such, in the interest of moving forward, perhaps its best to follow that guidance, at least for the time being. In the long run, it may be worthwhile to create a Mid-South regional board, comprised of Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina. I know, I know. We already have a Mid-South regional board. But that board seems to be a misnomer and, perhaps, is better titled South Central.

Would you still feel that way if the Midwest board were named Midwest, Great Lakes, and Ohio Valley (or just Great Lakes and Ohio Valley or even Midwest and Ohio Valley)?   The old boards left KY out of the Southeastern States and put them in with the split-states that front the Ohio River. People seemsed to be OK putting all KY related threads into the Ohio Valley board, even if one considers KY a southeastern state, because one checked the list of states in the board's description.  The real difficulty was deciding whether posts for large parts of IL, IN, or OH belonged in Great Lakes or Ohio Valley (and that probelm is corrected by the action to remove the Ohio Valley board).  If one essentially created a new board that ostensibly merged Great Lakes and Ohio Valley (and the new name adequately reflects the merger of the two old boards) then KY should be at home in the new board and all of the river projects connecting KY to IL, IN, or OH would also be in that new board.

I also want to thank the moderators for their hard work in working through the Ohio Valley threads that are necessary to bring about simplicity.  I think we should give moderators time to complete the task of closing Ohio Valley before considering the remaining split-states.

Quote from: cjw2001 on September 18, 2022, 10:54:47 AM
Just remove the Midwest from the name and call the merged forum Great Lakes and Ohio Valley.

This is a good suggestion. Should be acceptable to most forum members.

I'm going to step back now on this topic. There was a lot of good, thought provoking feedback. In the long run, combining states under one forum category, I believe, is the best way forward. For simplicity sake. For cohesiveness.

Quote from: ITB on September 17, 2022, 01:38:25 PM

Quote from: Rothman on September 17, 2022, 09:39:07 AM

Quote from: ITB on September 17, 2022, 06:33:45 AM

OK. After browsing the thread, I've shifted my thoughts. Although Kentucky is often grouped with the southern states (Southeastern Conference, etc.), road and bridge wise it seems more connected to Indiana and Ohio.

We need to move forward. Nothing will be perfect. Having Kentucky placed in the Midwest, Great Lakes is perhaps the best solution at this time.

I don't know if I've ever seen someone work so hard to come to the wrong conclusion.

At a core level, I believe Kentucky is more Southeast than Midwest, Great Lakes. The poll results, however, tilt toward the Midwest. As such, in the interest of moving forward, perhaps its best to follow that guidance, at least for the time being. In the long run, it may be worthwhile to create a Mid-South regional board, comprised of Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina. I know, I know. We already have a Mid-South regional board. But that board seems to be a misnomer and, perhaps, is better titled South Central.
 

Moving North Carolina away from South Carolina to put it with Kentucky doesn't really make any sense tbh.