What is "The South?"

Started by CoreySamson, November 26, 2022, 12:36:31 AM

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kkt

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2022, 09:32:36 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2022, 09:10:45 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded. 

This is the base definition I tend to go with.  Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.

The DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South.

Historically, they definitely were. Maryland was historically considered the South as well, in part because it was a slave state despite not seceding. But there's no question that the DC suburbs have been annexed. The cultural line between North and South has moved further south during my lifetime. Fredericksburg would have been deemed firmly Southern when I was a kid, but it's been annexed now as well–the cultural line is somewhere between Fredericksburg and Richmond, though east of there I'd say it curls north a bit. The eastern end of the Northern Neck (Lancaster County) has a far more Southern feel to it than the Fredericksburg area, for example. West of I-95 is a bit hard to delineate in places as well. Charlottesville feels a lot less Southern than it did in the early 1990s, for example (and I'm not referring to the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue, either).

It's interesting to note that the national park in Manassas is called the Manassas National Battlefield Park (not Bull Run). I wonder if at some point the revisionists will push to rename it to Bull Run because First Manassas and Second Manassas are the Southern names for those two battles.

Besides the spoils, the victors get the naming rights.


SkyPesos

Anything south of US 50 and east of US 81

Bruce

Instead of the secession argument, perhaps looking at states with codified segregation and Jim Crow laws would be a more modern definition.

But then again, most of the US had racist laws at the time...so I guess only the most egregious states?

kkt

Quote from: Bruce on November 26, 2022, 05:16:02 PM
Instead of the secession argument, perhaps looking at states with codified segregation and Jim Crow laws would be a more modern definition.

But then again, most of the US had racist laws at the time...so I guess only the most egregious states?

Yes, even cities that are now pretty civil had zoning laws that certain neighborhoods couldn't have black people living there, except for domestic servants.  I was pretty shocked when I learned that.  But it wasn't unusual even in northern cities.

roadman65

I thought Florida was the south as it's as far south you can get without going to Cuba. However Georgia cops don't think it is as they treat Florida residents that they pull over like northerners.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Big John

Quote from: Bruce on November 26, 2022, 05:16:02 PM
Instead of the secession argument, perhaps looking at states with codified segregation and Jim Crow laws would be a more modern definition.

But then again, most of the US had racist laws at the time...so I guess only the most egregious states?
I thought poll taxes were just southern, but learned some northern states used them too.

wriddle082

Quote from: SkyPesos on November 26, 2022, 12:15:14 PM
Anything south of US 50 and east of US 81

As someone who was partly raised in the upper south, I like this.  Parts of Southern Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois definitely have southern tendencies.

Also, in Florida, anything north of coastal US 98 or Gainesville or Palatka is the South.  Everything below there has been taken over by Yankees or Cubans.

texaskdog

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 26, 2022, 09:32:36 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 26, 2022, 09:10:45 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on November 26, 2022, 09:05:14 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on November 26, 2022, 01:49:41 AM
Any state that seceded. 

This is the base definition I tend to go with.  Texas is the only state that is hard to 100% categorize as Southern given the segment of west of San Antonio has a far different character.

The DC suburbs in Virginia are not in the South.

Historically, they definitely were. Maryland was historically considered the South as well, in part because it was a slave state despite not seceding. But there's no question that the DC suburbs have been annexed. The cultural line between North and South has moved further south during my lifetime. Fredericksburg would have been deemed firmly Southern when I was a kid, but it's been annexed now as well–the cultural line is somewhere between Fredericksburg and Richmond, though east of there I'd say it curls north a bit. The eastern end of the Northern Neck (Lancaster County) has a far more Southern feel to it than the Fredericksburg area, for example. West of I-95 is a bit hard to delineate in places as well. Charlottesville feels a lot less Southern than it did in the early 1990s, for example (and I'm not referring to the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue, either).

It's interesting to note that the national park in Manassas is called the Manassas National Battlefield Park (not Bull Run). I wonder if at some point the revisionists will push to rename it to Bull Run because First Manassas and Second Manassas are the Southern names for those two battles.

Hopefully there are no statues there.

hbelkins

Here we go again.

Ask most Kentuckians if they live in "the south" and they'll answer in the affirmative. Ask them if they live in "the midwest" and you'll get a dirty look at best and a good cussing at worst.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Rothman

Quote from: hbelkins on November 26, 2022, 06:52:36 PM
Here we go again.

Ask most Kentuckians if they live in "the south" and they'll answer in the affirmative. Ask them if they live in "the midwest" and you'll get a dirty look at best and a good cussing at worst.
Yep.  I agree.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Rothman

Quote from: Bruce on November 26, 2022, 05:16:02 PM
Instead of the secession argument, perhaps looking at states with codified segregation and Jim Crow laws would be a more modern definition.

But then again, most of the US had racist laws at the time...so I guess only the most egregious states?
That brings Utah into the South, where Jim Crow was implemented haphazardly, jurisdiction by jurisdiction.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

elsmere241

Quote from: hbelkins on November 26, 2022, 06:52:36 PM
Here we go again.

Ask most Kentuckians if they live in "the south" and they'll answer in the affirmative. Ask them if they live in "the midwest" and you'll get a dirty look at best and a good cussing at worst.

I interviewed with the LFUCG (Lexington-Fayette Urban County Government) in 2002 and the people I talked to there considered themselves Midwestern.

Rothman

Quote from: elsmere241 on November 26, 2022, 07:18:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 26, 2022, 06:52:36 PM
Here we go again.

Ask most Kentuckians if they live in "the south" and they'll answer in the affirmative. Ask them if they live in "the midwest" and you'll get a dirty look at best and a good cussing at worst.

I interviewed with the LFUCG (Lexington-Fayette Urban County Government) in 2002 and the people I talked to there considered themselves Midwestern.
Not my cousins that live in the area.  I find it's more that area considers itself the civilized South, for there be dragons down the Mountain Parkway.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

elsmere241

Then there's the question of the Delmarva Peninsula, at least the part that doesn't include most of New Castle County.  (In fact, it's becoming common for people to define Delmarva as not including NCCo, but including Cecil County, Maryland to the west).  To me, Delaware as a whole is culturally Southern but not everyone wants to admit that.  (Starting with the fact that instead of boroughs and townships we have these things called "hundreds", that Maryland apparently used to have too.)

WillWeaverRVA

Quote from: elsmere241 on November 26, 2022, 07:40:46 PM
Then there's the question of the Delmarva Peninsula, at least the part that doesn't include most of New Castle County.  (In fact, it's becoming common for people to define Delmarva as not including NCCo, but including Cecil County, Maryland to the west).  To me, Delaware as a whole is culturally Southern but not everyone wants to admit that.  (Starting with the fact that instead of boroughs and townships we have these things called "hundreds", that Maryland apparently used to have too.)

Hundreds were common in the southern colonies prior to 1776. Virginia and North Carolina had them, although I don't think they were formally defined as any sort of subcounty unit.
Will Weaver
WillWeaverRVA Photography | Twitter

"But how will the oxen know where to drown if we renumber the Oregon Trail?" - NE2

Scott5114

Hundreds are...British, actually (cf. the Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Chiltern Hundreds, a position that resigning members of the House of Commons are appointed to in order to circumvent laws aimed at preventing them from doing so).
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

WillWeaverRVA

Quote from: Scott5114 on November 26, 2022, 07:50:49 PM
Hundreds are...British, actually (cf. the Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Chiltern Hundreds, a position that resigning members of the House of Commons are appointed to in order to circumvent laws aimed at preventing them from doing so).

Yeah, which would explain why the older colonies (Virginia, North Carolina, Maryland, Delaware) had them.
Will Weaver
WillWeaverRVA Photography | Twitter

"But how will the oxen know where to drown if we renumber the Oregon Trail?" - NE2

webny99

I agree that not all of Texas is the South. San Antonio has a distinct southwestern vibe; it's not El Paso, but it's very different than the Deep South.

I like the idea of defining the south as two or three "rings" with the inner ring being the true deep south (LA/MS/AL/GA/SC and probably TN), a second ring for parts of eastern MO/OK/TX plus KY, southern IL/IN/OH and possibly NC/VA, and a third ring for southern FL, Baltimore/DC, and central OK/TX, including Dallas.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: webny99 on November 26, 2022, 09:55:49 PM
I agree that not all of Texas is the South. San Antonio has a distinct southwestern vibe; it's not El Paso, but it's very different than the Deep South.

I like the idea of defining the south as two or three "rings" with the inner ring being the true deep south (LA/MS/AL/GA/SC and probably TN), a second ring for parts of eastern MO/OK/TX plus KY, southern IL/IN/OH and possibly NC/VA, and a third ring for southern FL, Baltimore/DC, and central OK/TX, including Dallas.

Baltimore and DC are in no iteration of the South.

WashuOtaku


achilles765

As someone who has lived in Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas..
I always consider the south to be MS, AL, GA, TN, FL, SC, ARK and LA.

I consider Texas to be a totally different place. Like a mix of the south and the southwest. Yes there are similarities but Texas is much more closely associated with the southwest than the Deep South. The Mexican influences and the diversity of the cities are far beyond anything the Deep South can boast.
I love freeways and roads in any state but Texas will always be first in my heart

J N Winkler

I consider the South to include all first-level subdivisions of the US that subsume territorial units in which Black slavery was legal and not subject to phased abolition in 1861.  This includes the entire Confederacy (yes, even Texas), DC, the border states of Kentucky, Missouri, and (eventually) West Virginia, Oklahoma on the basis that several of the Civilized Tribes enslaved Blacks, and also Delaware since attempts to abolish slavery before 1861 failed despite 91.7% of the Black population being free in the 1860 census.

I prefer to delegate carving out regions on the basis of different culture, economic focus (e.g. ranching/the Old West mythos of west Texas and western Oklahoma), or urban development to a later stage of whatever discussion is at hand.  To my way of thinking, big cities don't get to use the stylized fact that Southern cultures are rural and agrarian almost by definition to opt out of being in the South.  It doesn't matter whether the conurbations in question barely existed in 1861 (El Paso) or have Hispanic cultural affinities (San Antonio).  Some attract significant migration from non-Southern regions (Atlanta, Northern Virginia), while others have very little (Baltimore); they are all Southern.  Cities are inseparable from their hinterlands.

I do agree that racial discrimination after the Civil War period is not a good basis for a definition.  Forms of Jim Crow existed even in the Northeastern states before the Civil War (in his autobiographies, Frederick Douglass mentions being ejected from a railroad carriage in Massachusetts explicitly because of the color of his skin).  And although Kansas entered the Union as a free state, Brown v. Board of Education is associated with it because of a law that allowed local school boards to require segregation of elementary school students.  Before the Supreme Court discarded Voting Rights Act preclearance in 2013, states subject to it included Arizona and Alaska as well as the South.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

jgb191

#47
My hometown feels so left out.  Since Corpus Christi is not considered part of "The South" (whatever that context means), we're not part of the north either, and we're not east nor west.  Then where do we fit in?  I'm sure Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando all feel the same way I do.  Maybe we're too far south to be considered "The South" I guess.
We're so far south that we're not even considered "The South"

Scott5114

"Corpus Christi" sounds like some sorta foreigner-speak, so y'all are clearly part of Mexico. /s
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

SkyPesos

Quote from: jgb191 on November 27, 2022, 02:27:46 AM
My hometown feels so left out.  Since Corpus Christi is not considered part of "The South" (whatever that context means), we're not part of the north either, and we're not east nor west.  Then where do we fit in?  I'm sure Miami, Tampa/St. Pete, and Orlando all feel the same way I do.  Maybe we're too far south to be considered "The South" I guess.
North Mexico



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