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From The Drive:

Automakers Are Starting to Drop AM Radio in New Cars. Here's Why
Some carmakers are leaving AM radios out of their new cars. They say it's because of audio quality, but it isn't that simple.

QuoteIt's easy to take for granted amenities in our cars like air conditioning and the radio, which have been standard equipment for longer than many of us have been alive. But the rise of electric vehicles is giving the auto industry the chance to rethink norms and jettison ideas that belong in the past. One of those ideas may be AM radios, which some carmakers say they won't include on future EVs, and which are already unavailable on a few. Car companies blame interference from EVs' drivetrains, but the answer isn't that simple–not by a long shot.

AM, or amplitude modulation, is a popular medium for radio broadcasts across the United States, often for regional interests such as news, weather, and sports. According to a 2018 Edison Research study, most radio listeners tune in while in their cars, making radio broadcasters rely heavily on commuters and travelers. It'd likely worry broadcasters to hear that many new cars don't include AM radios and that they're largely EVs and hybrids. You know, the kinds of cars that are increasingly looking like our only options in the future.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2oa)

I really only use AM radio for travel advisories.

The only time I've regularly used AM radio used to be when I was passing the Pentagon because the WTOP-FM signal on 107.7 would always fade out through there. But then WTOP switched to 103.5 and the problem cleared up. No more need for AM. Sports broadcasts here–the only other thing I used to listen to on AM–are generally on FM.

I still listen to the local ESPN AM station during my morning drive to the gym since I can't turn on the TV at home before my wife wakes up.

Well in Florida it's going to be a tough fight because we have a large Latino population. Most Spanish Speaking stations are on AM in the radio market. You take that away, you're going have a big upset here.

Quote from: roadman65 on July 07, 2022, 09:10:02 AM
Well in Florida it's going to be a tough fight because we have a large Latino population. Most Spanish Speaking stations are on AM in the radio market. You take that away, you're going have a big upset here.

That's a thing here too, all Spanish stations are on the AM bandwidth.

The only AM station I listen to still is ESPN. Our local news got a FM band a few years ago. If our ESPN station gets a FM band, I won't need AM radio ever.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 07, 2022, 09:14:32 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on July 07, 2022, 09:10:02 AM
Well in Florida it's going to be a tough fight because we have a large Latino population. Most Spanish Speaking stations are on AM in the radio market. You take that away, you're going have a big upset here.

That's a thing here too, all Spanish stations are on the AM bandwidth.

I would expect migration to FM. Or even more digital content over 5G. Those who got used to modern digital devices probably don't understand what's that hissing and screeching is anyway.

One big problem that I've always had with FM is signal reception range.  When I'm driving to and from Chicagoland, Chicago FM's have already faded away well before I get to the Wisconsin state line on the way back - usually they're all gone before I get past Waukegan.  Then Milwaukee FMs fade away shortly after I cross into Illinois going southbound.  Northbound, the last of the Milwaukee FMs fade away as I get to the Niagara Escarpment, usually by the time I get to Slinger ( well before I get to Fond du Lac).  The big AM stations from both cities are all loud and clear the whole way to and from Appleton.

For music, I have a tune playing system that is completely separate from the radio.

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on July 07, 2022, 09:37:58 AM
One big problem that I've always had with FM is signal reception range.  When I'm driving to and from Chicagoland, Chicago FM's have already faded away well before I get to the Wisconsin state line on the way back - usually they're all gone before I get past Waukegan.  Then Milwaukee FMs fade away shortly after I cross into Illinois going southbound.  Northbound, the last of the Milwaukee FMs fade away as I get to the Niagara Escarpment, usually by the time I get to Slinger ( well before I get to Fond du Lac).  The big AM stations from both cities are all loud and clear the whole way to and from Appleton.

For music, I have a tune playing system that is completely separate from the radio.

Mike

And with cell towers along most highways, cellular radio is totally an option. Traffic may still be pricey, but that is changing

To think, once upon a time, AM was the standard on cars, and FM was an option that my parents declined to "waste their money" on.

To be honest, I stopped listening to terrestrial radio stations on a regular basis for several years already, instead utilizing either SiriusXM or the Bluetooth connection. (SiriusXM is going to be cancelled, as I now have unlimited data and several streaming services). Beyond WRR which broadcasts classic music, I have no idea what the TV or radio stations are in the DFW market despite living here for 3½ years. Maybe it's because it feels like you are getting 20 minutes of content and 40 minutes of commercials when you listen to the radio. Many of the stations now have a Internet stream which you can access through an app such as Radio Garden (https://markholtz.info/radiogarden), so an alternative is available.

What concerns me, however, is the EAS stations. The primary EAS station is WBAP 820 AM while the secondary EAS station is KSCS 96.3 FM. While I do recognize that the other stations have to carry the EAS stations, I prefer to get the EAS from "The Source". This is more important now that I live in DFW and the higher likelihood of severe weather.

As for CDs, I have used the CD player maybe three times in the past eight years in my current vehicle. To me, it's several pounds of materials that have to be engineered for extreme temperature environments. While it would have once be considered extremely important in a vehicle's feature set, today, I would not miss it.

Quote from: ZLoth on July 07, 2022, 11:04:20 AM
To think, once upon a time, AM was the standard on cars, and FM was an option that my parents declined to "waste their money" on.

To be honest, I stopped listening to terrestrial radio stations on a regular basis for several years already, instead utilizing either SiriusXM or the Bluetooth connection. (SiriusXM is going to be cancelled, as I now have unlimited data and several streaming services). Beyond WRR which broadcasts classic music, I have no idea what the TV or radio stations are in the DFW market despite living here for 3½ years. Maybe it's because it feels like you are getting 20 minutes of content and 40 minutes of commercials when you listen to the radio. Many of the stations now have a Internet stream which you can access through an app such as Radio Garden (https://markholtz.info/radiogarden), so an alternative is available.

What concerns me, however, is the EAS stations. The primary EAS station is WBAP 820 AM while the secondary EAS station is KSCS 96.3 FM. While I do recognize that the other stations have to carry the EAS stations, I prefer to get the EAS from "The Source". This is more important now that I live in DFW and the higher likelihood of severe weather.

As for CDs, I have used the CD player maybe three times in the past eight years in my current vehicle. To me, it's several pounds of materials that have to be engineered for extreme temperature environments. While it would have once be considered extremely important in a vehicle's feature set, today, I would not miss it.

Again, emergency alerting migrates to cell phone. It may make sense in many cases as a phone is normally on, unlike some obscure radio station you have to specifically tune to.

Quote from: kalvado on July 07, 2022, 11:11:22 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on July 07, 2022, 11:04:20 AM
To think, once upon a time, AM was the standard on cars, and FM was an option that my parents declined to "waste their money" on.

To be honest, I stopped listening to terrestrial radio stations on a regular basis for several years already, instead utilizing either SiriusXM or the Bluetooth connection. (SiriusXM is going to be cancelled, as I now have unlimited data and several streaming services). Beyond WRR which broadcasts classic music, I have no idea what the TV or radio stations are in the DFW market despite living here for 3½ years. Maybe it's because it feels like you are getting 20 minutes of content and 40 minutes of commercials when you listen to the radio. Many of the stations now have a Internet stream which you can access through an app such as Radio Garden (https://markholtz.info/radiogarden), so an alternative is available.

What concerns me, however, is the EAS stations. The primary EAS station is WBAP 820 AM while the secondary EAS station is KSCS 96.3 FM. While I do recognize that the other stations have to carry the EAS stations, I prefer to get the EAS from "The Source". This is more important now that I live in DFW and the higher likelihood of severe weather.

As for CDs, I have used the CD player maybe three times in the past eight years in my current vehicle. To me, it's several pounds of materials that have to be engineered for extreme temperature environments. While it would have once be considered extremely important in a vehicle's feature set, today, I would not miss it.

Again, emergency alerting migrates to cell phone. It may make sense in many cases as a phone is normally on, unlike some obscure radio station you have to specifically tune to.

This works fine where there's cell service. In rural areas in Colorado and many other western states, there is no cell service for long periods of time. Often there's service along interstates and some (but not all) other state highways, but there's often no option other than the long-distance AM stations or satellite radio in the sticks.

Quote from: kalvado on July 07, 2022, 09:31:38 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 07, 2022, 09:14:32 AM

Quote from: roadman65 on July 07, 2022, 09:10:02 AM
Well in Florida it's going to be a tough fight because we have a large Latino population. Most Spanish Speaking stations are on AM in the radio market. You take that away, you're going have a big upset here.

That's a thing here too, all Spanish stations are on the AM bandwidth.

I would expect migration to FM. Or even more digital content over 5G. Those who got used to modern digital devices probably don't understand what's that hissing and screeching is anyway.

Well the Talk Radio part has moved as both Cox and IHeart started to feature Talk simulcasted on FM the same station on AM is now FM as well.

So I can see Spanish moving to FM soon as radio station demos change and that's how radio stations decide formats based on.  I learned that at CSB when I schooled there.  Hence why Magic 107 in Orlando was Neil Diamond and Barbara Streisand in the nineties but later became more harder light rock later. In 1991 you would hear the Carpenters sing We've Only Just Begun and in 2001 no Carpenters Song was played but Fleetwood Mac's Go You're Own Way is now played,  while still being classified as a Light Rock Station.

Now Magic is best of the Eighties, Nineties, and today due to another Demo Change.  No more Beatles, and classic adult contemporary music anymore, but post 1980 to present are only played.

AM stations always have weird static that changes when you drive under power lines and change with the signals at traffic lights.  I've frequently been stopped at a red light while listening to live sports on AM radio and the static buzz matches the blinking of the "don't walk" sign at the crosswalk.

Oh and if you're around a thunderstorm, you can "hear" the lightning in the static on AM.  That's kind of cool because even if you don't have eyes on the flash, you know the thunder is coming.

Prior to the proliferation of television and digital broadcasting, it was a time-honored tradition for UK basketball fans who lived out of state to drive to some area where they could pick up clear-channel WHAS-AM (840) out of Louisville to listen to the games.

This is nothing new: Home and portable stereo systems are doing the exact same thing, as they're being FM only. So this is another sign that AM radio is currently on life support, as more of those stations are adding FM simulcasts (or more commonly, HD2/3/4). For example, WBBM 780 is also broadcasting on 105.9 FM, but because a Top-40 station at 96.3 is also using those same call letters, 105.9 has to go under a different identity (WCFS).

Quote from: roadman65 on July 07, 2022, 12:14:59 PM
Hence why Magic 107 in Orlando was Neil Diamond and Barbara Streisand in the nineties but later became more harder light rock later. In 1991 you would hear the Carpenters sing We've Only Just Begun and in 2001 no Carpenters Song was played but Fleetwood Mac's Go You're Own Way is now played,  while still being classified as a Light Rock Station.

Now Magic is best of the Eighties, Nineties, and today due to another Demo Change.  No more Beatles, and classic adult contemporary music anymore, but post 1980 to present are only played.

You can still hear the above artists perform during the Christmas holiday season, along with Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin and Elvis Presley, who were pushed out once the former beautiful music stations made their switch to AC some 50 years ago. I remember seeing my grandparents get upset over the change that WLAK (now WLIT) made back in 1982, and they decided not to listen anymore after that. And the decline of music radio on AM didn't help matters either.

I was never a fan of AM radio. Too much static.

I don't think I've ever intentionally listened to AM radio for more than a few minutes. A few times I've tried to pick up distant stations late at night for novelty's sake, or on a long drive tuned to a frequency listed on a blue road sign out of curiosity's sake. But I've never thought "You know, I'd like to listen to whatever's on [station] right now."

Even in the event of an emergency, AM isn't all that useful around here. Each of the TV stations has a deal with an FM station to simulcast their severe weather coverage, and I assume that would carry over to more serious matters. If I really need to listen to the news and the phone is out, NPR is on FM as well. There just isn't much of a use case for AM for me.

Bring back CLU 132!

The problem for many Spanish language stations is many of those stations are in large metros where most if not all the FM slots are already taken. There are literally no vacant FM channels in Los Angeles (https://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/vacant?select=city&city=Los%2520Angeles&state=CA&x=12&y=3). I won't be surprised if the same issue exists in other major markets.

Personally, I can't remember the last time I listened to an AM station other than to program one in my car in case I accidently hit the AM button so I don't listen to static.

I had my AM presets on the highway advisory stations the Thruway used.  Now that the Thruway's HAR system has been discontinued, I don't use them anymore.  I hope FM sticks around for a while; I have a whole system of presets covering most of NY and some adjoining areas (particularly VT and western MA).  If I had to switch to streaming them, I'd probably pick my favorites and dump the rest.

One of the related articles linked from that article is a story about a mysterious AM broadcast in DC (https://www.thedrive.com/tech/39549/the-strange-story-of-dcs-lost-am-radio-station-still-transmitting-inauguration-road-closures-from-2013) that was transmitting road closures associated with Barack Obama's inauguration. In 2021. Because, for the 8 years it was broadcasting, nobody had noticed it. If that doesn't show how much people care about AM, I don't know what would.

So... another case of companies lying through their teeth about why they're doing something, under the assumption that their bullshit excuse will be more palatable to anyone asking about it than the real reason would be.

Anyway yeah I don't particularly care for day to day purposes as I never listen to the radio anymore and haven't in years. But...

Quote from: zzcarp on July 07, 2022, 11:56:44 AM

Quote from: kalvado on July 07, 2022, 11:11:22 AM
Again, emergency alerting migrates to cell phone. It may make sense in many cases as a phone is normally on, unlike some obscure radio station you have to specifically tune to.

This works fine where there's cell service. In rural areas in Colorado and many other western states, there is no cell service for long periods of time. Often there's service along interstates and some (but not all) other state highways, but there's often no option other than the long-distance AM stations or satellite radio in the sticks.

Not only that, but consider also that:
- your phone's battery will be dead in a day or less if you can't charge it because the power is out, and then what. A portable radio running on a few AAs will last A LOT longer.
- even if you normally have cell service where you live there is no guarantee that you still will in a disaster situation. Let me tell you, if you were in the lower part of Manhattan in the days after Hurricane Sandy hit, it was basically impossible to so much as get a text message in or out. Every cell tower in the area had exhausted its backup power by the following evening and you had to fight with a lot of other people for access to the next nearest tower that still had power in Brooklyn or New Jersey. Radio worked fine.

So when did folks here first have a car with an FM radio?

My parents first buyed a car with an FM radio in 1984. We rented a car with an FM radio in 1982 to go on a trip to Myrtle Beach, but the real reason we rented it was that our own car would never make it that far.

Around 1986, we buyed a used car that only had AM, which mostly my brother drove. But after WCLU went away, that car got an FM radio.

I'm trying to remember what our AM radio presets were up to 1984. This was when you set the presets by pulling the button outward. I'm sure we had WLW and WKRC and probably WHAS, and I think we had WMOH too. Maybe WCKY and WLAP-AM. I'm pretty sure we had WSAI up to 1978. I know we had the airport information station for a while. Around 1982-83, I kept begging my parents to add WCLU, but they wouldn't add it until WCLU started playing a new Hall & Oates song they liked.

how about the day when when you went on a long trip, you could pick up certain stations while traveling 100-200 miles out of where the station is? on Long trips to Alabama, i could pick up WLW outside Toledo OH and listen to it until i got 35-40 miles out of Cincinnati OH.

Quote from: cwf1701 on July 07, 2022, 09:29:55 PM
how about the day when when you went on a long trip, you could pick up certain stations while traveling 100-200 miles out of where the station is? on Long trips to Alabama, i could pick up WLW outside Toledo OH and listen to it until i got 35-40 miles out of Cincinnati OH.

I'm not sure what stations we listened to on long trips before we had FM, or if we just found local stations in other cities. I remember we went on a family trip in 1978 and we kept hearing "Alive Again" by Chicago, and I thought the lyrics were "I am a lima bean."

I remember some oddities in FM reception later, such as in 1996 on a trip through rural Texas when I somehow picked up FM stations from Minnesota and Kentucky. Even at home, I remember a couple weird things happening with FM reception.

One thing I remember in the mid-'80s was traveling south on I-75 towards Lexington, and Q-102 would be overpowered by another station on the same frequency that also had a top 40 format. I have no idea what this station was, because radio references from back then don't show any other station on 101.9 anywhere around. I think there was a 101.9 way out in Central City, Ky., but I don't see how it could reach Lexington.

Quote from: Henry on July 07, 2022, 01:58:38 PMThis is nothing new: Home and portable stereo systems are doing the exact same thing, as they're being FM only. So this is another sign that AM radio is currently on life support, as more of those stations are adding FM simulcasts (or more commonly, HD2/3/4).

From a technical standpoint, Frequency Modulation (FM) is considered superior to Amplitude Modulation (AM) in how the signal gets sent from the transmitter to the radio. AM is now best for talk-based formats (e.g. talk radio, news, sports broadcasting) where the audio quality doesn't matter as much compared to music. From a technical standpoint, it is easier to implement FM into a piece of consumer equipment than AM, especially that antenna part.

Is HD Radio still a thing? I thought it was headed to the same graveyard as AM Stereo. In Europe, Digital Audio Broadcasting (DAB) has replaced AM, and the AM transmitters are being shuttered and torn down.

It should be noted that some mobile phones, most notable the basic phones, may have the FM receiving functionality, but either the carrier has disabled it or the functionality is not implemented in favor of streaming services.

Quote from: kalvado on July 07, 2022, 11:11:22 AMAgain, emergency alerting migrates to cell phone. It may make sense in many cases as a phone is normally on, unlike some obscure radio station you have to specifically tune to.

Actually, it is recommended that you be able to receive emergency notifications from multiple sources, such as NOAA Weather Radio, SAME Radios (I use a Sangean CL-100 (https://markholtz.info/cl100)), alerts on your phone, and local television/radio. It is more important now since I live in a state with severe thunderstorms, large-sized hail, and maybe a tornado.

Quote from: Duke87 on July 07, 2022, 08:57:21 PMeven if you normally have cell service where you live there is no guarantee that you still will in a disaster situation. Let me tell you, if you were in the lower part of Manhattan in the days after Hurricane Sandy hit, it was basically impossible to so much as get a text message in or out. Every cell tower in the area had exhausted its backup power by the following evening and you had to fight with a lot of other people for access to the next nearest tower that still had power in Brooklyn or New Jersey. Radio worked fine.

This is an example why you need multiple sources for critical information.

I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes. I can remember being pretty excited a few years later (I can't remember the exact year) my parents bought a used 1985 Ford LTD, our first car with an FM radio, and it was still analog tuner. My mind was blown when my older brother bought his very first car, a 1987 Ford Escort, and it had a radio with a digital tuner.

Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM
I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes.

But it could shapeshift! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-1000)

As far as I’m aware, both my parents had cars with FM radios by the time I was able to remember anything.

Quote from: Takumi on July 08, 2022, 12:35:40 AM

Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM
I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes.

But it could shapeshift! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-1000)

As far as I'm aware, both my parents had cars with FM radios by the time I was able to remember anything.

You'd be fancy with the Chevette/1000 if you had an aftermarket filter tray which actually was actually reusable.  That whole one piece air filter/tray that came as OEM part was one of the all time worst designs for a volume car.

Quote from: bandit957 on July 07, 2022, 09:11:59 PM
So when did folks here first have a car with an FM radio?

When I was 13-14 or so, my stepdad had a 67 Beetle with AM only. We got a doohicky that tunes FM, rebroadcasts it on AM. Sort of like an FM - Bluetooth doohicky, but.. different.

Quote from: Duke87 on July 07, 2022, 08:57:21 PM
So... another case of companies lying through their teeth about why they're doing something, under the assumption that their bullshit excuse will be more palatable to anyone asking about it than the real reason would be.

There is probably at least some truth in "interference" explanation. I assume, AM could be engineered to work even with all that interference - at significant cost and (almost) no added value.
Another aspect of it is EMI standards manufacturers have to follow, though, and having significant AM noise may be a sign that things are problematic...

Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 07, 2022, 12:22:33 PM
AM stations always have weird static that changes when you drive under power lines and change with the signals at traffic lights.  I've frequently been stopped at a red light while listening to live sports on AM radio and the static buzz matches the blinking of the "don't walk" sign at the crosswalk.

Oh and if you're around a thunderstorm, you can "hear" the lightning in the static on AM.  That's kind of cool because even if you don't have eyes on the flash, you know the thunder is coming.

In NJ on US 22 in Bound Brook, the RED Signal Ahead sign at Vosseler Avenue, would click during the flash of RED on the sign.  My dad used to tell me that flash on the sign was activated by remote control most likely from the signal controller. The frequency of the short range remote beam interfered somehow with the AM transmission, he further explained.

Don't know if it still does that now, as I'm sure NJDOT went fiber optic.

Quote from: Takumi on July 08, 2022, 12:35:40 AM

Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM
I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes.

But it could shapeshift! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-1000)

As far as I'm aware, both my parents had cars with FM radios by the time I was able to remember anything.

It would have been great if that car could've shapeshifted into something else, it would have made for a slightly less crappy car!

The interference is real. As someone who flies UAVs, I often start up the drone inside the car. On very hot days, I'll keep the motor running (on a Subaru Outback) so I can keep cool while getting everything together. Some interference in the vehicle will mess with the geolocation of the UAV until I take it outside of the vehicle where it can self-calibrate.

The same goes for my iPhone 12. If I keep the phone closer to a particular area of the car, the compass and geolocation features will go haywire. If it's anywhere else, it works fine.

The concept of interference from an automobile isn't new but it's taken up a notch with an EV.

Quote from: seicer on July 08, 2022, 10:22:29 AM
The interference is real. As someone who flies UAVs, I often start up the drone inside the car. On very hot days, I'll keep the motor running (on a Subaru Outback) so I can keep cool while getting everything together. Some interference in the vehicle will mess with the geolocation of the UAV until I take it outside of the vehicle where it can self-calibrate.

The same goes for my iPhone 12. If I keep the phone closer to a particular area of the car, the compass and geolocation features will go haywire. If it's anywhere else, it works fine.

The concept of interference from an automobile isn't new but it's taken up a notch with an EV.

Geolocation should be much more prone to simple shielding by metal car body that interference.  GPS signal is crazy weak even in best conditions.
Compass, again, feels large chunks of iron and steel - and cars are mostly steel, if you think about it. 

In general, looks like most of EMI from power systems is below 2 MHz. AM band is 540-1000 kHz (from the top of my head, may be a bit  off),  FM band is ~100 MHz, and GPS runs around 1.5 GHz. So AM is an easy victim here.

Quote from: bandit957 on July 07, 2022, 09:11:59 PM
So when did folks here first have a car with an FM radio?

....

Every car my parents have had in which I can remember the radio has had an FM radio, as has every car I've ever had. By "in which I can remember the radio," what I mean is that I have very vague memories of the Fiat my father owned when I was a very little kid (like younger than age 4), but I don't remember the radio in that car and thus have no clue. I also remember my parents' Volvo sedan that they traded in on a wagon in 1979, but I don't remember the radio in that sedan.

I do know very well that neither my parents nor I have never "buyed" anything because that is not a real word.

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 08, 2022, 12:42:01 AM

Quote from: Takumi on July 08, 2022, 12:35:40 AM

Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM
I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes.

But it could shapeshift! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-1000)

As far as I'm aware, both my parents had cars with FM radios by the time I was able to remember anything.

You'd be fancy with the Chevette/1000 if you had an aftermarket filter tray which actually was actually reusable.  That whole one piece air filter/tray that came as OEM part was one of the all time worst designs for a volume car.

Don't knock those old Chevettes. I bought a used 1980 Chevette in 1985 so I could get back-and-forth to college. It would get over 40 mph on the highway though I wore out two clutches in three years after moving to St Louis after graduation and dealing with the most four-way stops than any other city on the planet. I traded in the Cheesemobile (it was yellow and had a bunch of Packers stickers) in 1990 for a new Nissan pickup; it still ran great even if it looked like a POS.

Quote from: skluth on July 08, 2022, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 08, 2022, 12:42:01 AM

Quote from: Takumi on July 08, 2022, 12:35:40 AM

Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM

It would get over 40 mph on the highway

You got a chevette over 40 mph???

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on July 08, 2022, 12:17:00 PM

Quote from: skluth on July 08, 2022, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 08, 2022, 12:42:01 AM

Quote from: Takumi on July 08, 2022, 12:35:40 AM

Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM

It would get over 40 mph on the highway

You got a chevette over 40 mph???

Whoops. 40 mpg

Quote from: bandit957 on July 07, 2022, 09:42:07 PM

Quote from: cwf1701 on July 07, 2022, 09:29:55 PM
how about the day when when you went on a long trip, you could pick up certain stations while traveling 100-200 miles out of where the station is? on Long trips to Alabama, i could pick up WLW outside Toledo OH and listen to it until i got 35-40 miles out of Cincinnati OH.

I'm not sure what stations we listened to on long trips before we had FM, or if we just found local stations in other cities. I remember we went on a family trip in 1978 and we kept hearing "Alive Again" by Chicago, and I thought the lyrics were "I am a lima bean."

I remember some oddities in FM reception later, such as in 1996 on a trip through rural Texas when I somehow picked up FM stations from Minnesota and Kentucky. Even at home, I remember a couple weird things happening with FM reception.

One thing I remember in the mid-'80s was traveling south on I-75 towards Lexington, and Q-102 would be overpowered by another station on the same frequency that also had a top 40 format. I have no idea what this station was, because radio references from back then don't show any other station on 101.9 anywhere around. I think there was a 101.9 way out in Central City, Ky., but I don't see how it could reach Lexington.

With the right conditions, the Central City, KY could beam out further than you would think (freakish atmospheric conditions).  They have a 100k signal and had a top 40 type format in the mid 80s.  I used to listen to them regularly from Evansville since they played some songs that never made it into the top 40 along with their regular fare.

For me, AM is part of emergency news acquisition for when the Cascadia Subduction Zone breaks loose.  There is a 30% chance of this even triggering the San Andreas Fault into having a Big One.  Living on the Oregon coast, I would tune into KGO in SF to see if they are on the air and have news.  If they are off-air, then KNX in LA would be next.  Should that station not be around, then KSL in SLC would be the final shot at a clear channel station that can be picked up where I live.

Rick

Quote from: Life in Paradise on July 08, 2022, 12:37:52 PM
With the right conditions, the Central City, KY could beam out further than you would think (freakish atmospheric conditions).  They have a 100k signal and had a top 40 type format in the mid 80s.  I used to listen to them regularly from Evansville since they played some songs that never made it into the top 40 along with their regular fare.

It's about 150 miles from Central City to Lexington. I remember hearing "Middle Of The Road" by the Pretenders one time on the mystery station. I also remember hearing "Crazy In The Night" by Kim Carnes, but I can't remember if this was the mystery station or Q-102. They were battling each other out.

These encounters with the mystery station would have been 1984-85.

Quote from: skluth on July 08, 2022, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 08, 2022, 12:42:01 AM

Quote from: Takumi on July 08, 2022, 12:35:40 AM

Quote from: tchafe1978 on July 07, 2022, 11:02:49 PM
I can remember when my parents bought a used 1982 Pontiac T-1000 (a rebadged Chevy Chevette) in about 1984 and my dad telling me (I was about 6 at the time) the only fancy thing we got on this car is the AM radio. Yep, it was a pretty bare bones car, it didn't even have power steering or power brakes.

But it could shapeshift! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-1000)

As far as I'm aware, both my parents had cars with FM radios by the time I was able to remember anything.

You'd be fancy with the Chevette/1000 if you had an aftermarket filter tray which actually was actually reusable.  That whole one piece air filter/tray that came as OEM part was one of the all time worst designs for a volume car.

Don't knock those old Chevettes. I bought a used 1980 Chevette in 1985 so I could get back-and-forth to college. It would get over 40 mph on the highway though I wore out two clutches in three years after moving to St Louis after graduation and dealing with the most four-way stops than any other city on the planet. I traded in the Cheesemobile (it was yellow and had a bunch of Packers stickers) in 1990 for a new Nissan pickup; it still ran great even if it looked like a POS.

My father held onto a 1981 Chevette until 1992 or so.  Floor rusted through and water would come in when it rained.

I remember in the mid 80 that AM stations were gloating that they were "In AM stereo"

Quote from: Big John on July 08, 2022, 04:39:52 PM
I remember in the mid 80 that AM stations were gloating that they were "In AM stereo"

I think one or two cars that we had supposedly allowed AM stereo, but I don't think any AM stations around here were stereo. If there was, it was a really small station that we never listened to.

I read that stereo severely limited AM signal range, and a lot of AM stations had signal problems to begin with.

Back to the AM interference issue.  High-torque electric motors are notorious for EMI and RFI issues.  As is almost always the case, these problems occur when power cables are not twisted properly.  The older technology in the rapid transit industry used a chopped DC voltage for motor control, generally at 600 VDC (nowadays 720VDC) and with as many as six motors per railcar, you only needed two power cables to the motor and thus you could use #2/0 conductors (which can carry up to 325 amps).  Those are less than 1/2-inch in diameter, and even though it is no fun, the factory could twist the cables together to filter out noise.  This became a bigger problem as we switched away from DC motors and started using variable voltages.

I suspect that the battery cables themselves are more the issue in the Electric Vehicle industry.  Indeed, Tesla uses a 375-volt battery that has a 400 amp fuse between its rear battery bank and middle battery bank.   That means a jump to #4/0 conductors that are rated for 440 amps maximum.  Anyhow, these monster cables are almost 3/4-inch in diameter and I seriously doubt that any EV manufacturer even thought about bundling the positive and negative together so that they can be twisted to get rid of EMI and RFI.  After all, most folks associate this problem with alternating current.  But cables that big turn into powerful antennae that essentially pick up certain radio frequencies and turn it into RFI noise in the lower bands.  Yuck.

When I was a kid I'd listen to ballgames at night on AM. Had one once that went 19 innings on the West Coast – now THAT was late.

Nowadays I only listen to AM radio when there is breaking news and I'm on the road, or for traffic updates if I have to drive into the Big Smoke.

My mom once had a 1976 Chevy Vega and it came with a standard AM/FM radio. I once had a 1965 Chevy stepside pickup with an AM/FM radio, but that was obviously aftermarket.

Every car my parents had that had a radio had AM/FM. But it was far more frequent for us to not have a radio at all, given my dad's proclivity for buying things like 1969 Blazers and 1980s Chevy pickups.

There used to also be cars with FM-only radios. Once in the early '80s, we went to some event where someone showed off a brand new, very expensive sports car. I noticed the radio only had FM.

Quote from: Dirt Roads on July 08, 2022, 06:07:22 PM
Back to the AM interference issue.  High-torque electric motors are notorious for EMI and RFI issues.  As is almost always the case, these problems occur when power cables are not twisted properly.  The older technology in the rapid transit industry used a chopped DC voltage for motor control, generally at 600 VDC (nowadays 720VDC) and with as many as six motors per railcar, you only needed two power cables to the motor and thus you could use #2/0 conductors (which can carry up to 325 amps).  Those are less than 1/2-inch in diameter, and even though it is no fun, the factory could twist the cables together to filter out noise.  This became a bigger problem as we switched away from DC motors and started using variable voltages.

I suspect that the battery cables themselves are more the issue in the Electric Vehicle industry.  Indeed, Tesla uses a 375-volt battery that has a 400 amp fuse between its rear battery bank and middle battery bank.   That means a jump to #4/0 conductors that are rated for 440 amps maximum.  Anyhow, these monster cables are almost 3/4-inch in diameter and I seriously doubt that any EV manufacturer even thought about bundling the positive and negative together so that they can be twisted to get rid of EMI and RFI.  After all, most folks associate this problem with alternating current.  But cables that big turn into powerful antennae that essentially pick up certain radio frequencies and turn it into RFI noise in the lower bands.  Yuck.

Thanks for that.

I wonder if it would be worth it considering AM/FM's decline over the years. While both still command presence, there is more money to be made by getting a cut of subscriptions to XM and other connected services.

Quote from: seicer on July 09, 2022, 10:58:21 AM

Quote from: Dirt Roads on July 08, 2022, 06:07:22 PM
Back to the AM interference issue.  High-torque electric motors are notorious for EMI and RFI issues.  As is almost always the case, these problems occur when power cables are not twisted properly.  The older technology in the rapid transit industry used a chopped DC voltage for motor control, generally at 600 VDC (nowadays 720VDC) and with as many as six motors per railcar, you only needed two power cables to the motor and thus you could use #2/0 conductors (which can carry up to 325 amps).  Those are less than 1/2-inch in diameter, and even though it is no fun, the factory could twist the cables together to filter out noise.  This became a bigger problem as we switched away from DC motors and started using variable voltages.

I suspect that the battery cables themselves are more the issue in the Electric Vehicle industry.  Indeed, Tesla uses a 375-volt battery that has a 400 amp fuse between its rear battery bank and middle battery bank.   That means a jump to #4/0 conductors that are rated for 440 amps maximum.  Anyhow, these monster cables are almost 3/4-inch in diameter and I seriously doubt that any EV manufacturer even thought about bundling the positive and negative together so that they can be twisted to get rid of EMI and RFI.  After all, most folks associate this problem with alternating current.  But cables that big turn into powerful antennae that essentially pick up certain radio frequencies and turn it into RFI noise in the lower bands.  Yuck.

Thanks for that.

I wonder if it would be worth it considering AM/FM's decline over the years. While both still command presence, there is more money to be made by getting a cut of subscriptions to XM and other connected services.

The only reason AM stayed this long was the Baby Boomers who lost interest in music.  Hey considering both 8 Track and VHS both died as fast as they rose, AM had a nice long life.

I always liked 8-tracks.

I was disappointed when my family sold all our 8-tracks without telling me. We had John Denver, Jim Croce, Billy Joel. All gone now.

Hopefully the American car makers hold the line on it.  The first thing I do when driving to Chicago is try to pull in WBBM 780 starting around South Bend heading westbound if it is still daylight.  At night, I can get it at home in the driveway in Ohio--along with WBZ Boston, WCBS New York, KYW Philadelphia.  When visiting LA in a rental car, first thing is turning on KNX.  Reliable traffic reports on those as well as weather, news, etc. and no need to try to stream or something, draining the battery of the cell phone.  Being able to pull in WBBM from a much longer distance on AM than on the FM that it now simulcasts on allows for better planning. 

The sentimental value of the AM receivers in vehicles will always be with me too; when I was growing up near Boston, my Dad always would go out to his van before sunset to hear WKXS-AM Boston (which at the time played Music of Your Life type programming) play Glenn Miller's Moonlight Serenade as the last song every day before signing off at sunset (they were daytime only).  Later in the evening, he would like to pull in WOWO from Fort Wayne which was at the time a clear channel; we always listened for the mention of the World-Famous WOWO Fire Escape. 

One of the problems with car radios abandoning AM and putting AM stations out of business altogether is that a lot of the garbage on AM will invade FM. And it truly is garbage. I don't just mean opinionated talk shows, since those may be the least of our worries now. There's a lot of empty-headed mumbo-jumbo on AM now besides that. We're starting to get into infomercial territory here.

And that's with FM being miserable enough as it is.

IMHO,

- At least around here, all of the AM stations that are serious efforts, have been given FM repeaters.  These generally have much shorter range than the AM station.  Most stations continue to use the AM branding, much like digital TV stations use PSIP to fake the channel numbers they used to be on.  For example, one local station is "58 WCHS and then in much small type 96.5 and 104.5 FM". 

- People have been predicting the demise of AM radio since at least the mid-60s. 

- The Spanish issue is real.  Since at least the mid-80s, AM has found niche markets.  Spanish or, in some places, other languages, niche music formats, other political opinions besides the MSM, etc.  This won't change.

- The rural issue is a thing too.  Not everybody likes music.  Many listen to talk or sport talk exclusively (I do).  Some people are just not going to pay for SXM and cannot get a cell phone signal.

- SXM (which probably has maybe 10 years left before it goes away), and the various apps are about NATIONAL political, NATIONAL sports, and NATIONAL "other" talk.  All good. But LOCAL politics and LOCAL sports are different formats and also worthy.

- Car makers seem to only make a token effort at AM anymore.  My last two cars got AM reception that was really poor. 

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
One of the problems with car radios abandoning AM and putting AM stations out of business altogether is that a lot of the garbage on AM will invade FM. And it truly is garbage. I don't just mean opinionated talk shows, since those may be the least of our worries now. There's a lot of empty-headed mumbo-jumbo on AM now besides that. We're starting to get into infomercial territory here.

And that's with FM being miserable enough as it is.

Thinking from the other side - these AM stations likely use 50+ year transmitters and antenna assemblies. They, with little audience, wouldn't be able to afford serious maintenance or replacement - and those wavelengths warrant large structures - and likely going the way towards natural die out.

YouTube channel, on the other hand, costs nothing to keep alive....

Quote from: kalvado on July 09, 2022, 06:01:17 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
One of the problems with car radios abandoning AM and putting AM stations out of business altogether is that a lot of the garbage on AM will invade FM. And it truly is garbage. I don't just mean opinionated talk shows, since those may be the least of our worries now. There's a lot of empty-headed mumbo-jumbo on AM now besides that. We're starting to get into infomercial territory here.

And that's with FM being miserable enough as it is.

Thinking from the other side - these AM stations likely use 50+ year transmitters and antenna assemblies. They, with little audience, wouldn't be able to afford serious maintenance or replacement - and those wavelengths warrant large structures - and likely going the way towards natural die out.

YouTube channel, on the other hand, costs nothing to keep alive....

Servers (that house those videos) are very costly to construct and maintain. Nothing is free.

Quote from: seicer on July 09, 2022, 06:38:17 PM

Quote from: kalvado on July 09, 2022, 06:01:17 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
One of the problems with car radios abandoning AM and putting AM stations out of business altogether is that a lot of the garbage on AM will invade FM. And it truly is garbage. I don't just mean opinionated talk shows, since those may be the least of our worries now. There's a lot of empty-headed mumbo-jumbo on AM now besides that. We're starting to get into infomercial territory here.

And that's with FM being miserable enough as it is.

Thinking from the other side - these AM stations likely use 50+ year transmitters and antenna assemblies. They, with little audience, wouldn't be able to afford serious maintenance or replacement - and those wavelengths warrant large structures - and likely going the way towards natural die out.

YouTube channel, on the other hand, costs nothing to keep alive....

Servers (that house those videos) are very costly to construct and maintain. Nothing is free.

Sure, but those costs are diluted and shared between users, and YouTube gets ad revenue to pay for those.
Other than storage, most server side costs are scaled per user. Unlike AM antenna tower which needs same maintenance for 2 million and 20 user base.

A server is way cheaper than an AM antenna, even if you're the only one using it.

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 11:28:20 AM
I always liked 8-tracks.

I was disappointed when my family sold all our 8-tracks without telling me. We had John Denver, Jim Croce, Billy Joel. All gone now.

And the matchbook you always seemed to need to wedge under the tape so it would play right.

Like I said earlier in this thread...

Quote from: ZLoth on July 07, 2022, 11:04:20 AM
To be honest, I stopped listening to terrestrial radio stations on a regular basis for several years already, instead utilizing either SiriusXM or the Bluetooth connection. (text deleted) Maybe it's because it feels like you are getting 20 minutes of content and 40 minutes of commercials when you listen to the radio.

And then this gets posted...

Quote from: SP Cook on July 09, 2022, 04:34:38 PMBut LOCAL politics and LOCAL sports are different formats and also worthy.

Depends on if the station is locally owned and operated, or if they are simply part of a bigger conglomerate that is being programmed remotely. And, one of the annoying things is setting up a "super-commercial" which is broadcast across multiple stations at the same time.

As far as I can see, the media landscape and how we consume media has gone though multiple evolutions since KDKA first went on the air in 1920. While you could install a radio in your car at that point, multiple technical issues meant that you could only listen when the car was shut off. That made it as convenient as being along your own orchestra. It wasn't until the 1930s that the technical issues were resolved, and car radio was available as an option, but for most folks, it was the only way to listen to your favorite music as records were still very expensive. While FM was available back in the early 1950s, there was low adoption as the station owners feared that FM would cannibalize their AM audience, and it didn't take off until the 1970s. We had 8-track tapes in cars as early as 1965, cassette tapes in the early 1970s, and CDs in 1985, but they respective died out in the early 1980s for eight-tracks, 2005-2010 for cassettes, and recently for CDs. The mobile phones and the Bluetooth connection is a viable alternative.

When I take a look at the Dallas radio market (https://markholtz.info/dfwradio), I see the following on the AM side:

• 8 Asian stations
• 11 News, News/Talk, or Talk
• 5 Religious or Gospel Music
• 6 "Spanish Christian", 1 Spanish Sports, and 1 Tejano
• 2 Sports Stations
• 8 statins that are Adult Contemporary, Classic Country, Classic Hits, Country, Nostalgia, or Oldies

When I flip over to the FM side, I see 5 stations that are "Regional Mexican", 8 "Spanish Christian", 3 "Spanish Hits", and 1 "Tejano". Go figure. There are also 2 Asian stations, 8 religious stations, 3 country stations, 2 sports stations, 1 classical station, and 1 jazz station. From my perspective, over 90% of those stations either do not appeal to me and/or are in a language I do not understand. Then again, I'm not a desired demographic.

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 11:28:20 AM
I always liked 8-tracks.

I was disappointed when my family sold all our 8-tracks without telling me. We had John Denver, Jim Croce, Billy Joel. All gone now.

Certainly to each their own.  Personally I never liked 8 track tapes that much.  One issue is because they had to split up the music into four parts of as near equal length as they could.  Sometimes they had to compromise by:

• Changing the running order (which I didn't like, especially on a "concept" album where the running order was important)
• Splitting a song into two halves (self-explanatory)
• Putting a song on twice.
• Leaving an unusually long gap at the end of the fourth track.

I will admit to having OCD issues :) which I've gathered is not uncommon on this forum.

Good choice in music on your collection though!

I try to use AM radio for what I feel is its main application today -- real-time news, weather and traffic updates -- but when I actually need it during an aggressive storm or when stuck in miles-long traffic jams due to accidents they're always going on about some ballplayer or spewing political rhetoric intended to get people to fellate billionaires. I don't really expect the FM rock station to stop playing Zeppelin and Another One Bites the Dust for one second to disseminate this information and especially not the alternative station to call off the Tame Impala since that isn't their charge.

I'll jump in here, since this is in my wheelhouse (I'm the VP/Engineering for a radio group). To answer some questions in this thread, in no particular order...

HD Radio isn't dead. In fact, many of those manufacturers who are dropping AM are adding HD, because it supports things like album art. It looks very much like XM, Spotify, Etc.). HD Radio is essentially an IP stream that sends data like audio, pictures, and even traffic data to GPS units.

A little over two years ago, the FCC allowed AM stations to file applications for FM translators to rebroadcast their AM stations. Lots of AM stations took them up on the offer. The catch? If the AM goes away so does the FM, so there's some incentive there to keep the lights on. One interesting phenomenon is that stations with complicated multi-tower directional arrays are reducing their power and eliminating the extra towers to reduce maintenance costs. Another factor is that AM stations are often built on valuable land. More than one large AM station has gone silent because the land the towers sit on is more valuable than the station itself.

AM Stereo was indeed a thing. Unfortunately, it was a solution looking for a problem and it drifted into the sunset. There were plenty of technical limitations that made it impractical for many stations.

AM can be made to sound as good as FM, and it once did. However, in order to reduce congestion in the AM band the FCC adopted an NRSC standard in the late 80's that effectively limited the frequency response of AM to 10khz. Many stations reduce it even lower than that because...

...receiver manufacturers no longer build quality components for the AM side of their tuners. Many times the frequency response of those tuners is less than 8khz!

There was a push in the early days of AM stereo for the "AMAX" standard. It was wonderful! It required broadcasters and receiver manufacturers to work together in order for it to be fully realized. You can imagine how that went.

Radio is still very strong and is listened to by 95% of Americans at least once a week. It's the only tech that is totally free and doesn't buffer when there's a traffic jam on the freeway. Plus people still like that local content.

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMHD Radio isn't dead. In fact, many of those manufacturers who are dropping AM are adding HD, because it supports things like album art. It looks very much like XM, Spotify, Etc.). HD Radio is essentially an IP stream that sends data like audio, pictures, and even traffic data to GPS units.

That's fine for car units, as I see some aftermarket units that can be installed. How about home HiFi receivers?

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMRadio is still very strong and is listened to by 95% of Americans at least once a week. It's the only tech that is totally free and doesn't buffer when there's a traffic jam on the freeway. Plus people still like that local content.

Are we talking terrestrial radio only, or is satellite-delivered subscription radio also included? What was the sample size of that survey, who sponsored it, and where were the respondents located? I don't question the "local content" part, but again, how many stations are actively creating local content? Remember in October 2017, the FCC eliminated the "main studio" rule (https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-eliminates-main-studio-rule) for stations.

Quote from: ZLoth on July 15, 2022, 09:52:23 PMAre we talking terrestrial radio only, or is satellite-delivered subscription radio also included? What was the sample size of that survey, who sponsored it, and where were the respondents located? I don't question the "local content" part, but again, how many stations are actively creating local content? Remember in October 2017, the FCC eliminated the "main studio" rule (https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-eliminates-main-studio-rule) for stations.

I thought this rule was long gone by 2017.

City of license is pretty much meaningless now. It has been for probably over 30 years. It's a complete joke now.

Quote from: ZLoth on July 15, 2022, 09:52:23 PM

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMHD Radio isn't dead. In fact, many of those manufacturers who are dropping AM are adding HD, because it supports things like album art. It looks very much like XM, Spotify, Etc.). HD Radio is essentially an IP stream that sends data like audio, pictures, and even traffic data to GPS units.

That's fine for car units, as I see some aftermarket units that can be installed. How about home HiFi receivers?

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMRadio is still very strong and is listened to by 95% of Americans at least once a week. It's the only tech that is totally free and doesn't buffer when there's a traffic jam on the freeway. Plus people still like that local content.

Are we talking terrestrial radio only, or is satellite-delivered subscription radio also included? What was the sample size of that survey, who sponsored it, and where were the respondents located? I don't question the "local content" part, but again, how many stations are actively creating local content? Remember in October 2017, the FCC eliminated the "main studio" rule (https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-eliminates-main-studio-rule) for stations.

CCrane, Sangean, and a few others make tuners.

As for the main studio rule, that doesn't mean that a station may be less local, it simply means that the rules for placing the station are gone. For example, I have two stations that are about 50 miles apart. They used to have separate studios, now they have one.

I am talking about terrestrial radio - check some of the infinite dial surveys. Remember, local content can simply mean local news, weather, and promotional announcements. All can be done with syndicated talent.

Quote from: bandit957 on July 15, 2022, 09:55:45 PM

Quote from: ZLoth on July 15, 2022, 09:52:23 PMAre we talking terrestrial radio only, or is satellite-delivered subscription radio also included? What was the sample size of that survey, who sponsored it, and where were the respondents located? I don't question the "local content" part, but again, how many stations are actively creating local content? Remember in October 2017, the FCC eliminated the "main studio" rule (https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-eliminates-main-studio-rule) for stations.

I thought this rule was long gone by 2017.

City of license is pretty much meaningless now. It has been for probably over 30 years. It's a complete joke now.

Nope. You could get waivers, but the rule was still in effect.

I think the rule is a joke as well, in as much as the market will determine if you're serving an area properly or not. Plus with the 80-90 docket, we got a lot of class A stations licensed to small little suburbs outside of metro areas that were never really independent areas to begin with.

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 16, 2022, 01:18:44 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on July 15, 2022, 09:52:23 PM

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMHD Radio isn't dead. In fact, many of those manufacturers who are dropping AM are adding HD, because it supports things like album art. It looks very much like XM, Spotify, Etc.). HD Radio is essentially an IP stream that sends data like audio, pictures, and even traffic data to GPS units.

That's fine for car units, as I see some aftermarket units that can be installed. How about home HiFi receivers?

CCrane, Sangean, and a few others make tuners.

Again, we are talking about HiFi/AV receivers made by Sony, Onkyo, Marantz, Denon, Pioneer, and such. These are receivers that have incorporated Bluetooth, either Ethernet and/or WiFi for streaming music, and some even work with Alexa. Considering that HD radio has been around for around 20 years, either it's too expensive to incorporate, or there are technological challenges. Or, the consumer hasn't been demanding the feature. Tuning in the weather bands should be an essential feature, but again, not there.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but some AM stations have (or are transitioning to) the FM dial, esp. if they're part of a conglomerate. For example, Boston's talk radio WRKO, best known on AM 680, can be heard on FM 100.7 (HD) which is the same dial as rock station WZLX. I suspect there will be more of this in the years ahead.

You can get KFI AM 640 here in the LA area on KOST-FM HD-2, and they even seem to be pushing this more than their traditional AM frequency. I think KNX has an FM simulcast as well but I can't remember it off the top of my head.

WLW has a translator on 94.5, which blocks out the 94.5 in Lexington that I used to be able to get very clearly.

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on July 18, 2022, 09:05:05 PM
You can get KFI AM 640 here in the LA area on KOST-FM HD-2, and they even seem to be pushing this more than their traditional AM frequency. I think KNX has an FM simulcast as well but I can't remember it off the top of my head.

Similar with WBBM which I can pull in with ease at night in NE Ohio; they mention the FM simulcast frequency more than they do their original AM, it seems.  Maybe it just seems that way, but I tried counting and they plugged the FM one much more.  Not that I could pull that one here.

Pretty sure WBBM is owned by Audacy like KNX, yes?

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on July 20, 2022, 02:54:28 PM
Pretty sure WBBM is owned by Audacy like KNX, yes?

Yep, while WBZ ended up owned by iHeart and even moved out of the combined studio building with the TV station now that they are no longer both owned by CBS. Most of the rest of the AM CBS Radio stations that were Westinghouse seemed to end up with Audacy.

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on July 10, 2022, 02:50:46 AM

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 11:28:20 AM
I always liked 8-tracks.

I was disappointed when my family sold all our 8-tracks without telling me. We had John Denver, Jim Croce, Billy Joel. All gone now.

And the matchbook you always seemed to need to wedge under the tape so it would play right.

Yep. If you inserted an 8-track into the slot at a wrong angle, the azimuth of the head and the tape was forever jacked up. Big part of the downfall of the 8-track.

Ha, I do remember seeing a lot of signs for 8-track repair in old pictures from music stores.

A friend of mine told me this back in 2019. So this isn't really all that new. As far as what he knew it was just the cars made outside the US.

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on July 18, 2022, 09:05:05 PM
You can get KFI AM 640 here in the LA area on KOST-FM HD-2, and they even seem to be pushing this more than their traditional AM frequency. I think KNX has an FM simulcast as well but I can't remember it off the top of my head.

KNX-FM is on 97.1 FM.

Quote from: bing101 on July 23, 2022, 09:39:04 PM

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on July 18, 2022, 09:05:05 PM
You can get KFI AM 640 here in the LA area on KOST-FM HD-2, and they even seem to be pushing this more than their traditional AM frequency. I think KNX has an FM simulcast as well but I can't remember it off the top of my head.

KNX-FM is on 97.1 FM.

A local AM here in Appleton, WI ( WHBY 1150 AM) has apparently turned their AM digital signal OFF after a couple of years a week ago because a usually decent AM in Milwaukee (WISN 1130 AM) is again coming in pretty much loud and clear.  For the past couple of years, WISN's signal here in Appleton was like continually listening to a radio through a thunderstorm that was trying to sound out words.  There is simply not enough bandwidth available at those frequencies to fit in any more information, but that bandwidth is available in FM channels and there  it works fine.

Mike

The knock against AM radios not being miniaturizable is interesting.  AM radios were the first miniature electronic device: the transistor radio.  AM radios can not be miniaturized into a smart phone because they need a bar antenna, but FM no longer has that edge.  FM radios need an antenna too, and that was usually a headphone cord.  Now that wireless headphones have taken over, FM radios in smart phones are no longer practical.

Once I started listening to radio on personal stereos, I preferred AM because it uses less battery power.  I also hate multi-path distortion, a problem not helped with cheap personal stereo FM circuitry.  Sony started putting a DX/local switch on their Walkman radios, which is a hack that is rarely useful.  Especially when you have to go into a menu to use it.

It was easy for software providers to stop making 8-tracks and VHS tapes, but there's still an installed base of AM radio stations, and no easy way to provide the content on FM.  Most AM station are on FM HD-2s.  I myself would love to buy a personal stereo HD radio, but the only one I can find on Amazon appears to be new old stock from 2006.  Users complain that the built-in rechargeable battery can't keep a charge after a few cycles.   For some reason the National Association of Broadcasters is not leading a charge to get more HD radios available.  Radio stations used to have an ad at the end of their ad block promoting HD radio, but now that spot is used to plug the iHeart or Audacy app.  Progress.

Edit: typos.

I also have found that my normal Android 'smart' cell phone makes some pretty heavy interference on my AM nightstand radio (listening to out of town stations) when I set it down right next to the receiver set.  Thankfully, that interference is very short range, so it doesn't really bother me.  I did start thinking that this interference would make it impossible to build an AM receiver into the phone, though.

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on July 29, 2022, 11:11:36 AM
I also have found that my normal Android 'smart' cell phone makes some pretty heavy interference on my AM nightstand radio (listening to out of town stations) when I set it down right next to the receiver set.  Thankfully, that interference is very short range, so it doesn't really bother me.  I did start thinking that this interference would make it impossible to build an AM receiver into the phone, though.

Mike

I believe that was an artifact of older GSM protocols (3G or 2G?)  which featured short, but pretty high power (>1W) transmissions. I had an impression newer protocols are much better in that respect. This is one of the reasons cell phone requirements for passenger planes are relaxed..

Listeners also use apps  (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=tunein.player&hl=en_US&gl=US)and websites  (http://radio.garden/visit/hays-ks/myXAT3H0)to stream radio, both AM and FM. No point in installing a receiver for something when most drivers can even stream radio from their phones.

The New York Times has a column (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/10/business/media/am-radio-cars.html?unlocked_article_code=TCjWfnMyLz9KCMtFE2vDSg49BwODnTgcewHD2mdSSeKLh9m790jBGJYdMrUU78jalOMIli1bJ0zBrkcuKbzfdTMe22fI8oPDLWBv9m74_yZbN8LjrKIlp-AVAWQinMghIZd2k-soPTiwMvPQxYcHPScU1H2190cgkSljVoE8mRwoF59HE4PFOKer9KDs8-Syx7Tt7_vYLNBwBlN3tQLVrz_HV3iq7aeoKkmVKlzExvD-M0yIzqfHp5Ez41OZQycdN5OVxPtg5gl4ZWj2bUH3zLu_jVjJRcBOLqa9_hPkkcsPlbcW2EGvUp_z4l3K_Bx43x1FKgrcQRmL0NKtjfo&smid=share-url) on the subject.  (That should be a non-paywalled link).

Nothing terribly new -- just additional EVs listed as getting rid of AM radio, observations on the value of AM radio, and an anecdote about Tesla drivers not noticing the omission.

When I take a look at the radio station ratings for the Dallas-Fort Worth Market (https://markholtz.info/2p4), thirteen of the top fifteen stations are FM stations. #5 is a AM news/talk, and #8 is a AM/FM simulcast sports station. The next AM station is at #16 as a NewsRadio station. For New York City, the top ten stations are all FM stations (https://markholtz.info/2p5), while Los Angeles has one AM station in the top 10.

Personally, in my commute walk to work, I prefer to listen to a streaming service or my own media server over a terrestrial station.

AM is worth having, even if it's just for the occassional DOT local transmitter about road conditions.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 09, 2022, 07:33:06 PM
A server is way cheaper than an AM antenna, even if you're the only one using it.

Yes, but the vast majority of radio broadcasters have already taken care of that particular cost by selling their AM/FM towers to companies like Vertical Bridge, which in turn use those towers to co-locate wireless services on them. iHeartMedia and Audacy, in theory, could turn off all their AM/FM stations and simply go to podcast/streaming music networks, and not miss a beat.

Bring back CLU 132! Then maybe I'll start listening to AM again.

Quote from: SP Cook on July 09, 2022, 04:34:38 PM
IMHO,

- At least around here, all of the AM stations that are serious efforts, have been given FM repeaters.  These generally have much shorter range than the AM station.  Most stations continue to use the AM branding, much like digital TV stations use PSIP to fake the channel numbers they used to be on.  For example, one local station is "58 WCHS and then in much small type 96.5 and 104.5 FM". 

- People have been predicting the demise of AM radio since at least the mid-60s. 

- The Spanish issue is real.  Since at least the mid-80s, AM has found niche markets.  Spanish or, in some places, other languages, niche music formats, other political opinions besides the MSM, etc.  This won't change.

- The rural issue is a thing too.  Not everybody likes music.  Many listen to talk or sport talk exclusively (I do).  Some people are just not going to pay for SXM and cannot get a cell phone signal.

- SXM (which probably has maybe 10 years left before it goes away), and the various apps are about NATIONAL political, NATIONAL sports, and NATIONAL "other" talk.  All good. But LOCAL politics and LOCAL sports are different formats and also worthy.

- Car makers seem to only make a token effort at AM anymore.  My last two cars got AM reception that was really poor. 

Be careful about predicting the demise of SXM. It is a service that has been able to get 12-14% household penetration for a technology (radio) that has been a free service from its inception over 100 years ago. Heck, SXM and its investors (John Malone in particular) have been able to use SXM to purchase Pandora.

If AM radio is struggling in an environment where it's still available in vehicles (and many other places), it would follow that it would continue to decline if no longer available. Yet even the NYT article said that there are still ways to access AM radio (via apps) and there are dedicated AM radio users, even among younger drivers.

Quote from: kkt on December 11, 2022, 10:37:45 AM
AM is worth having, even if it's just for the occassional DOT local transmitter about road conditions.

Those might be on the decline.  I know the Thruway got rid of their system a couple years ago.

Quote from: vdeane on December 11, 2022, 03:22:27 PM

Quote from: kkt on December 11, 2022, 10:37:45 AM
AM is worth having, even if it's just for the occassional DOT local transmitter about road conditions.

Those might be on the decline.  I know the Thruway got rid of their system a couple years ago.

Heh.  Part of the reason is that they were using toll plazas as ground plates for their transmitters...

Quote from: Rothman on December 11, 2022, 04:16:35 PM

Quote from: vdeane on December 11, 2022, 03:22:27 PM

Quote from: kkt on December 11, 2022, 10:37:45 AM
AM is worth having, even if it's just for the occassional DOT local transmitter about road conditions.

Those might be on the decline.  I know the Thruway got rid of their system a couple years ago.

Heh.  Part of the reason is that they were using toll plazas as ground plates for their transmitters...

Is that a reason or an excuse? When they rebuilt 23-24 stretch in Albany, most of it was concrete, and I am sure finding other pads is possible. I am not sure how big those grounding pads need to be, but my bet couple hundred feet of concrete roadway is all what's needed. Other structures, like overpass bases, should also be usable.
But if they see no value in keeping transmitters running, then why bother...

Quote from: brad2971 on December 11, 2022, 12:19:33 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 09, 2022, 07:33:06 PM
A server is way cheaper than an AM antenna, even if you're the only one using it.

Yes, but the vast majority of radio broadcasters have already taken care of that particular cost by selling their AM/FM towers to companies like Vertical Bridge, which in turn use those towers to co-locate wireless services on them. iHeartMedia and Audacy, in theory, could turn off all their AM/FM stations and simply go to podcast/streaming music networks, and not miss a beat.

My webserver costs me $28/month. It's a cheap, kinda slow one, but it's enough to run an ecommerce business on. I'm doubtful that the operating costs for renting the use of a transmission tower, even if the station is not on the hook for maintenance or support staff, are anywhere close to comparable.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 12, 2022, 02:17:17 AM

Quote from: brad2971 on December 11, 2022, 12:19:33 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 09, 2022, 07:33:06 PM
A server is way cheaper than an AM antenna, even if you're the only one using it.

Yes, but the vast majority of radio broadcasters have already taken care of that particular cost by selling their AM/FM towers to companies like Vertical Bridge, which in turn use those towers to co-locate wireless services on them. iHeartMedia and Audacy, in theory, could turn off all their AM/FM stations and simply go to podcast/streaming music networks, and not miss a beat.

My webserver costs me $28/month. It's a cheap, kinda slow one, but it's enough to run an ecommerce business on. I'm doubtful that the operating costs for renting the use of a transmission tower, even if the station is not on the hook for maintenance or support staff, are anywhere close to comparable.

I bet server capable of handling couple hundred simultaneous streams - 1% of midsize MSA - would cost much more. That is with customers paying for signal distribution via their connection fees.

Quote from: ZLoth on December 10, 2022, 05:50:18 PM
When I take a look at the radio station ratings for the Dallas-Fort Worth Market (https://markholtz.info/2p4), thirteen of the top fifteen stations are FM stations. #5 is a AM news/talk, and #8 is a AM/FM simulcast sports station. The next AM station is at #16 as a NewsRadio station. For New York City, the top ten stations are all FM stations (https://markholtz.info/2p5), while Los Angeles has one AM station in the top 10.

Personally, in my commute walk to work, I prefer to listen to a streaming service or my own media server over a terrestrial station.

I'm a P1 of the #8 station and I listen exclusively on the FM channel.

Quote from: kalvado on December 12, 2022, 07:32:01 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 12, 2022, 02:17:17 AM

Quote from: brad2971 on December 11, 2022, 12:19:33 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 09, 2022, 07:33:06 PM
A server is way cheaper than an AM antenna, even if you're the only one using it.

Yes, but the vast majority of radio broadcasters have already taken care of that particular cost by selling their AM/FM towers to companies like Vertical Bridge, which in turn use those towers to co-locate wireless services on them. iHeartMedia and Audacy, in theory, could turn off all their AM/FM stations and simply go to podcast/streaming music networks, and not miss a beat.

My webserver costs me $28/month. It's a cheap, kinda slow one, but it's enough to run an ecommerce business on. I'm doubtful that the operating costs for renting the use of a transmission tower, even if the station is not on the hook for maintenance or support staff, are anywhere close to comparable.

I bet server capable of handling couple hundred simultaneous streams - 1% of midsize MSA - would cost much more. That is with customers paying for signal distribution via their connection fees.

A couple hundred simultaneous streams, you say? Then it's not as much as you'd think it would cost. Unlike radio, a stream can do things like compress and timeslice data to reduce the amount of bandwidth used. One site I've found describes a 320 Kbps stream (140.62 MB/hour) as a "high quality" stream.

Assuming by "a couple hundred" you mean 200, the math works out to:

140.62 MB × 24 hours = 3360 MB/day
3360 MB/day × 31 days = 104160 MB/mo
104160 MB/mo × 200 users = 20832000 MB/mo
20832000 MB ÷ 1024 = 20343.75 GB ÷ 1024 = 19.8 TB

DigitalOcean will rent you a managed server with 6 TB of bandwidth for $160/month. So say you get four of them and balance the load between all four servers. That's $640/month, and you don't have to do any maintenance on the server; the hosting company does it for you.

Just paying one tech $7.25/hour to watch the tower 24 hours a day would cost you $5,394/month, not to mention the cost of power, parts, benefits, redundancy in case the tech gets sick, etc. And good luck finding a qualified radio tech that works for that cheap to begin with.

I have no idea how much it costs to rent a managed AM tower, but I can't imagine it's less than $640.

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 19, 2022, 01:46:16 AM

Quote from: kalvado on December 12, 2022, 07:32:01 AM

Quote from: Scott5114 on December 12, 2022, 02:17:17 AM

Quote from: brad2971 on December 11, 2022, 12:19:33 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 09, 2022, 07:33:06 PM
A server is way cheaper than an AM antenna, even if you're the only one using it.

Yes, but the vast majority of radio broadcasters have already taken care of that particular cost by selling their AM/FM towers to companies like Vertical Bridge, which in turn use those towers to co-locate wireless services on them. iHeartMedia and Audacy, in theory, could turn off all their AM/FM stations and simply go to podcast/streaming music networks, and not miss a beat.

My webserver costs me $28/month. It's a cheap, kinda slow one, but it's enough to run an ecommerce business on. I'm doubtful that the operating costs for renting the use of a transmission tower, even if the station is not on the hook for maintenance or support staff, are anywhere close to comparable.

I bet server capable of handling couple hundred simultaneous streams - 1% of midsize MSA - would cost much more. That is with customers paying for signal distribution via their connection fees.

A couple hundred simultaneous streams, you say? Then it's not as much as you'd think it would cost. Unlike radio, a stream can do things like compress and timeslice data to reduce the amount of bandwidth used. One site I've found describes a 320 Kbps stream (140.62 MB/hour) as a "high quality" stream.

Assuming by "a couple hundred" you mean 200, the math works out to:

140.62 MB × 24 hours = 3360 MB/day
3360 MB/day × 31 days = 104160 MB/mo
104160 MB/mo × 200 users = 20832000 MB/mo
20832000 MB ÷ 1024 = 20343.75 GB ÷ 1024 = 19.8 TB

DigitalOcean will rent you a managed server with 6 TB of bandwidth for $160/month. So say you get four of them and balance the load between all four servers. That's $640/month, and you don't have to do any maintenance on the server; the hosting company does it for you.

Just paying one tech $7.25/hour to watch the tower 24 hours a day would cost you $5,394/month, not to mention the cost of power, parts, benefits, redundancy in case the tech gets sick, etc. And good luck finding a qualified radio tech that works for that cheap to begin with.

I have no idea how much it costs to rent a managed AM tower, but I can't imagine it's less than $640.

Less than I expected, but not exactly free
And if we're at it...  one may also ask what is the breakeven audience for a radio station?  And how many stations single tower supports?

Not a lot of people are listening to AM, but for the station owners, that AM signal is soooooooo important. With an AM license you get FM-translator stations licenses easily. You take two or three low power FM (translators) and can fill the metro area with the programming from the AM station on the clearer FM band.

It even happens in rural areas.

As a listener, it would be nicer if some of those AM stations were just a regular FM stations.  I know I've passed on adding some to my presets in favor of ones I like less just because the low power translators don't cover a wide enough area to be useful on roadtrips; I prefer the coverage of my preset system to be fairly comprehensive in the area where I have stations on it, and I only get 11-12 (I have one the same on both FM1 and FM2 for easy switching) available unless I can find some frequency shares in different markets.

The American radio industry needs to just start over pretty much from scratch.

Does city of license even mean a thing anymore? Radio can't compete with YouTube unless it adds some localized elements, which they won't do.

Quote from: bandit957 on January 13, 2023, 01:05:03 PM
Radio can't compete with YouTube

Can you watch YouTube while driving or at work?

Quote from: 1 on January 13, 2023, 01:11:10 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on January 13, 2023, 01:05:03 PM
Radio can't compete with YouTube

Can you watch YouTube while driving or at work?

A commute is only a couple hours each day.

I used to actually listen to the radio all day. The only time I listen to it now is for 'American Top 40' rebroadcasts on WGRR.

Quote from: 1 on January 13, 2023, 01:11:10 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on January 13, 2023, 01:05:03 PM
Radio can't compete with YouTube

Can you watch YouTube while driving or at work?

I don't watch Youtube, but I listen to stories particularly The History Guy and Mentor Pilot while i commute. In a lot of cases you don't need the video.

Quote from: bandit957 on January 13, 2023, 01:12:31 PMA commute is only a couple hours each day.

Depends on how far your commute is. Right now, I'm working from home, so my commute is about 30 seconds. If I'm walking to work, it's 30 minutes round trip. If I'm driving, it's 5 minutes round trip plus kicking myself for being lazy.

I work at home for one of my jobs too and my other job (retail management) is a 5-minute drive, so I will spend that short drive listening to the AM news station just to make sure there is no breaking news. That's the extent of my AM.

I need to show you people something I mentioned regarding a picture I took in December on my way to Folkston, GA, but only uploaded nearly several days ago:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NB_US_441;_Paynes_Prairie_Park_@_1610_AM.jpg

For those saying that AM sounds like crap. Here is a C-QUAM AM Stereo air check from Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq6KSavcVMI

Sounds pretty damned good.

Another air check, this time from 500miles away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMAPKTnJtnA

Quote from: NJRoadfan on February 03, 2023, 11:27:31 PM
For those saying that AM sounds like crap. Here is a C-QUAM AM Stereo air check from Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq6KSavcVMI

Sounds pretty damned good.

Another air check, this time from 500miles away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMAPKTnJtnA

Unfortunately, a lot of C-QUAM stations switched to IBOC and then back to conventional AM without restoring C-QUAM. There might still be some space for music on AM instead of a bunch of Limbaugh wannabes otherwise.

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on July 16, 2022, 06:58:19 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but some AM stations have (or are transitioning to) the FM dial, esp. if they're part of a conglomerate. For example, Boston's talk radio WRKO, best known on AM 680, can be heard on FM 100.7 (HD) which is the same dial as rock station WZLX. I suspect there will be more of this in the years ahead.

WALK 97.5 FM and 1370 AM were always simulcasted... or at least they were during the Robert Kline show.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned the three Dodge Coronet AM radios we had in the 1970's that used to pick up radio stations from the midwest on Long Island, didn't I?

WLW from Cincinnati I bet.

This should be a non=paywalled link:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-vehicles-need-am-radio-former-emergency-officials-argue-9e69e297?st=rqy0l3db4eaxvwa&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

QuoteThe lack of AM radio in some new electric vehicles could cut off drivers from important safety alerts broadcast over the medium, warned a group of former emergency officials in a letter Sunday.

Auto makers such as Ford Motor Co. and Tesla Inc. have dropped AM radio from newer EV models. Car companies say the motors on such vehicles generate electromagnetic frequencies on the same wavelength as AM radio signals, creating buzzing and signal fading from the interference.

The government should seek assurances that auto makers will maintain AM radio in cars, said seven former Federal Emergency Management Agency administrators in a letter Sunday to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and some congressional committees that was viewed by The Wall Street Journal.

Hm.  Former FEMA admins seem out of touch with current trends (imagine that).  Travel advisory radio is going the way of the dodo.

Quote from: Rothman on February 27, 2023, 07:44:42 AM
Hm.  Former FEMA admins seem out of touch with current trends (imagine that).  Travel advisory radio is going the way of the dodo.

All seven of them... I wonder how long it took to go through 7 people in a high-level position and how many of them were asked to leave after big failures...

Quote from: kalvado on February 27, 2023, 08:04:13 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 27, 2023, 07:44:42 AM
Hm.  Former FEMA admins seem out of touch with current trends (imagine that).  Travel advisory radio is going the way of the dodo.

All seven of them... I wonder how long it took to go through 7 people in a high-level position and how many of them were asked to leave after big failures...

Safety Management is more about appearing like you are doing something complex rather than writing user friendly emergency plans. 

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 27, 2023, 08:34:02 AM

Quote from: kalvado on February 27, 2023, 08:04:13 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 27, 2023, 07:44:42 AM
Hm.  Former FEMA admins seem out of touch with current trends (imagine that).  Travel advisory radio is going the way of the dodo.

All seven of them... I wonder how long it took to go through 7 people in a high-level position and how many of them were asked to leave after big failures...

Safety Management is more about appearing like you are doing something complex rather than writing user friendly emergency plans.

How many emergencies do happen according to the plan?
While fire drills are mandatory, the actual response I witnessed included EHS ladies on high heels (department xmas party, you know)  chasing fire trucks - all that in response to a slice of pizza burnt in a microwave. Exactly by the plan!

Quote from: kalvado on February 27, 2023, 08:47:21 AM

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 27, 2023, 08:34:02 AM

Quote from: kalvado on February 27, 2023, 08:04:13 AM

Quote from: Rothman on February 27, 2023, 07:44:42 AM
Hm.  Former FEMA admins seem out of touch with current trends (imagine that).  Travel advisory radio is going the way of the dodo.

All seven of them... I wonder how long it took to go through 7 people in a high-level position and how many of them were asked to leave after big failures...

Safety Management is more about appearing like you are doing something complex rather than writing user friendly emergency plans.

How many emergencies do happen according to the plan?
While fire drills are mandatory, the actual response I witnessed included EHS ladies on high heels (department xmas party, you know)  chasing fire trucks - all that in response to a slice of pizza burnt in a microwave. Exactly by the plan!

None do, that's exactly why emergency plans shouldn't be so rigid and assumptive they will go a single way.  People are creatures of habit and largely not used to dealing with situations where their adrenaline will suddenly something.  Personally I've found emphasizing "do something"  and "get out first if you can"  to be the most effective approach to most emergencies.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on February 27, 2023, 07:14:31 AM
This should be a non=paywalled link:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-vehicles-need-am-radio-former-emergency-officials-argue-9e69e297?st=rqy0l3db4eaxvwa&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

QuoteThe lack of AM radio in some new electric vehicles could cut off drivers from important safety alerts broadcast over the medium, warned a group of former emergency officials in a letter Sunday.

Auto makers such as Ford Motor Co. and Tesla Inc. have dropped AM radio from newer EV models. Car companies say the motors on such vehicles generate electromagnetic frequencies on the same wavelength as AM radio signals, creating buzzing and signal fading from the interference.

The government should seek assurances that auto makers will maintain AM radio in cars, said seven former Federal Emergency Management Agency administrators in a letter Sunday to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and some congressional committees that was viewed by The Wall Street Journal.

How expensive is it for someone to put in a portable AM/FM radio in their car's emergency kit... provided that someone actually HAS a emergency kit...

From a roadgeek perspective, I think it's time to update the big blue signs that mention what frequencies to tune into for the latest road conditions. Most of them still have AM-only frequencies listed (540 and 1710 being the most used), but newer ones add FM as well, so I guess it's now a requirement that local/state transportation agencies use a frequency on that band to broadcast their information.

Quote from: Henry on February 27, 2023, 10:29:16 AM
From a roadgeek perspective, I think it's time to update the big blue signs that mention what frequencies to tune into for the latest road conditions. Most of them still have AM-only frequencies listed (540 and 1710 being the most used), but newer ones add FM as well, so I guess it's now a requirement that local/state transportation agencies use a frequency on that band to broadcast their information.

Years ago, I remember seeing a big blue sign in Michigan for info on road conditions that listed the frequencies of the main commercial FM stations in the area.

Quote from: ZLoth on February 27, 2023, 10:06:36 AM

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on February 27, 2023, 07:14:31 AM
This should be a non=paywalled link:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-vehicles-need-am-radio-former-emergency-officials-argue-9e69e297?st=rqy0l3db4eaxvwa&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

QuoteThe lack of AM radio in some new electric vehicles could cut off drivers from important safety alerts broadcast over the medium, warned a group of former emergency officials in a letter Sunday.

Auto makers such as Ford Motor Co. and Tesla Inc. have dropped AM radio from newer EV models. Car companies say the motors on such vehicles generate electromagnetic frequencies on the same wavelength as AM radio signals, creating buzzing and signal fading from the interference.

The government should seek assurances that auto makers will maintain AM radio in cars, said seven former Federal Emergency Management Agency administrators in a letter Sunday to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg and some congressional committees that was viewed by The Wall Street Journal.

How expensive is it for someone to put in a portable AM/FM radio in their car's emergency kit... provided that someone actually HAS a emergency kit...

pretty meaningless as that doesn't take away interference from the engine. So you would need to park (because you cannot use portable radio while driving),  turn off systems to avoid interference and take the time to listen for transmission. ANother Tesla coming by may cause loss of reception, though.

Quote from: kalvado on February 27, 2023, 11:07:18 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on February 27, 2023, 10:06:36 AM
How expensive is it for someone to put in a portable AM/FM radio in their car's emergency kit... provided that someone actually HAS a emergency kit...

pretty meaningless as that doesn't take away interference from the engine. So you would need to park (because you cannot use portable radio while driving),  turn off systems to avoid interference and take the time to listen for transmission. ANother Tesla coming by may cause loss of reception, though.

Who said anything about listening to the AM radio when driving? From the article:

QuoteWhile drivers nowadays can use smartphones and other tech to dial up their favorite radio stations, the signal keeping those services online isn't as reliable as AM radio during emergency events, the former FEMA officials said.

If you are stuck on the side of the road during a natural disaster, you may want to conserve fuel and battery power. Also, my car has some of my emergency items in it including a backup radioI . If anything, car radios should have the NOAA frequencies in it, but I know, good luck with that with the NAB. Also, when was the last time you purchased a new vehicle where it only had the AM radio in it? How many decades ago was that?

I seem to recall that 88.1 MHz to 89.9 MHz of the FM spectrum was reserved for non-profit use. Perhaps the FCC needs to have a word or three on that as well.

Quote from: ZLoth on February 27, 2023, 02:18:50 PM

Quote from: kalvado on February 27, 2023, 11:07:18 AM

Quote from: ZLoth on February 27, 2023, 10:06:36 AM
How expensive is it for someone to put in a portable AM/FM radio in their car's emergency kit... provided that someone actually HAS a emergency kit...

pretty meaningless as that doesn't take away interference from the engine. So you would need to park (because you cannot use portable radio while driving),  turn off systems to avoid interference and take the time to listen for transmission. ANother Tesla coming by may cause loss of reception, though.

Who said anything about listening to the AM radio when driving? From the article:

QuoteWhile drivers nowadays can use smartphones and other tech to dial up their favorite radio stations, the signal keeping those services online isn't as reliable as AM radio during emergency events, the former FEMA officials said.

If you are stuck on the side of the road during a natural disaster, you may want to conserve fuel and battery power. Also, my car has some of my emergency items in it including a backup radioI . If anything, car radios should have the NOAA frequencies in it, but I know, good luck with that with the NAB. Also, when was the last time you purchased a new vehicle where it only had the AM radio in it? How many decades ago was that?

I seem to recall that 88.1 MHz to 89.9 MHz of the FM spectrum was reserved for non-profit use. Perhaps the FCC needs to have a word or three on that as well.

It's an interesting discussion when in the emergency cycle I need information most. Best case scenario is avoiding emergency altogether, not driving into a massive backup or a storm to begin with. So, I do need emergency info while driving.
If I am on the shoulder, I either need to call rescue services if it is just me, or it's too late and we are all in trouble. Updates are great, but.... 

And yes, I totally agree on NOAA. What is NAB, though? 

I thought the non-commercial FM band went up to 91.9.
NAB means National Association of Broadcasters.

Quote from: ZLoth on February 27, 2023, 02:18:50 PM
I seem to recall that 88.1 MHz to 89.9 MHz of the FM spectrum was reserved for non-profit use. Perhaps the FCC needs to have a word or three on that as well.

Quote from: Big John on February 27, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
I thought the non-commercial FM band went up to 91.9.

Correct, it's 91.9 MHz.  Here in Wichita, one of the local NPR stations is higher than 89.9 MHz.

The FCC allows a few noncommercial stations above 92 MHz, but it does not allow commercial stations below 92 MHz.

I think it's pretty laughable in that WSJ story as to the last example presented:

Quote
Mr. Wenger said one caller dialed in to the station multiple times, saying he was diabetic and stranded in his car. The caller was rescued after the station broadcast his story, he said.

"His only connection to the world was an AM radio station,"  Mr. Wenger said.

Clearly, they're ignoring that HE HAD A WORKING PHONE. 

Why he was calling the radio station and not 911, family, friends or anyone else, who knows.  And then it took multiple phone calls for even the radio station to get help.

Moving on from that, we've had numerous national disasters...and even minor ones...over the past few decades, and not once has AM radio been relevant.  All those hurricanes and snowstorms.  Highway routes shut down leaving people stranded due to snow.  The New York City Blackout of 2003.  Just name every issue that we've had in this country, and no one has said they remained reassured because their only form of communication was listening to AM radio.

It's also notable that when people talk about AM radio, they're talking about ways to keep it in cars.  Most people aren't saying they listen to it, and no one is saying that's their go-to when a disaster strikes.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 27, 2023, 04:10:13 PM
I think it's pretty laughable in that WSJ story as to the last example presented:

Quote
Mr. Wenger said one caller dialed in to the station multiple times, saying he was diabetic and stranded in his car. The caller was rescued after the station broadcast his story, he said.

"His only connection to the world was an AM radio station,"  Mr. Wenger said.

Clearly, they're ignoring that HE HAD A WORKING PHONE. 

Why he was calling the radio station and not 911, family, friends or anyone else, who knows.  And then it took multiple phone calls for even the radio station to get help.

Moving on from that, we've had numerous national disasters...and even minor ones...over the past few decades, and not once has AM radio been relevant.  All those hurricanes and snowstorms.  Highway routes shut down leaving people stranded due to snow.  The New York City Blackout of 2003.  Just name every issue that we've had in this country, and no one has said they remained reassured because their only form of communication was listening to AM radio.

It's also notable that when people talk about AM radio, they're talking about ways to keep it in cars.  Most people aren't saying they listen to it, and no one is saying that's their go-to when a disaster strikes.

When was the last time stupid truth had any bearing on decision making?

Quote from: kalvado on February 27, 2023, 03:16:52 PMIt's an interesting discussion when in the emergency cycle I need information most. Best case scenario is avoiding emergency altogether, not driving into a massive backup or a storm to begin with. So, I do need emergency info while driving. If I am on the shoulder, I either need to call rescue services if it is just me, or it's too late and we are all in trouble. Updates are great, but....

Precisely. While I have driven across the Sierra Nevadas in winter to Reno or South Lake Tahoe, it was on major highways and when the roads were clear. Any hints of snow and the need for chains, and it's trip canceled. Same thing around DFW. When we had thundersleet in DFW a few weeks ago, I only ran a quick errand and returned from the store before it hit on Tuesday, January 31st at 8:30 AM. After that, I did not go off my property until Friday, February 3rd, although I spent some time breaking up the ice hump that formed in front of my north-facing garage which doesn't get much sun.

Quote from: kalvado on February 27, 2023, 03:16:52 PMAnd yes, I totally agree on NOAA. What is NAB, though?

National Association of Broadcasters. They are a industry lobbying group who will insist you are better off getting your weather information with plenty of commercial connections instead of a non-commercial audio loop.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 27, 2023, 04:10:13 PMMoving on from that, we've had numerous national disasters...and even minor ones...over the past few decades, and not once has AM radio been relevant.  All those hurricanes and snowstorms.  Highway routes shut down leaving people stranded due to snow.  The New York City Blackout of 2003.  Just name every issue that we've had in this country, and no one has said they remained reassured because their only form of communication was listening to AM radio.

In some of those severe situations, the radio stations went into simulcast mode where both the AM and FM stations were utilized to broadcast information when, under normal circumstances, they broadcast completely different formats. For Texas, many areas have EAS Local Primary-1 on the AM band and a Local Primary-2 on the FM band (https://markholtz.info/texaseasplan), although some areas have both stations on the FM band. Only San Antonio has both local primaries on the AM band, while Texarkana and McAllen have a single Local Primary station.

Something I posted July 2022:

Quote from: ZLoth on July 07, 2022, 10:29:41 PM

Quote from: Henry on July 07, 2022, 01:58:38 PMThis is nothing new: Home and portable stereo systems are doing the exact same thing, as they're being FM only. So this is another sign that AM radio is currently on life support, as more of those stations are adding FM simulcasts (or more commonly, HD2/3/4).

From a technical standpoint, Frequency Modulation (FM) is considered superior to Amplitude Modulation (AM) in how the signal gets sent from the transmitter to the radio. AM is now best for talk-based formats (e.g. talk radio, news, sports broadcasting) where the audio quality doesn't matter as much compared to music. From a technical standpoint, it is easier to implement FM into a piece of consumer equipment than AM, especially that antenna part.

It should be noted that some mobile phones, most notable the basic phones, may have the FM receiving functionality, but either the carrier has disabled it or the functionality is not implemented in favor of streaming services.

I had both a iPod and a Sansa e200 media players. Both were able to tune in the FM frequencies provided you had plugged in a wired headset as it also served as the FM antenna, but no AM antenna. Both were much smaller than a transister radio. And, as was noted earlier in the thread:

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMA little over two years ago, the FCC allowed AM stations to file applications for FM translators to rebroadcast their AM stations. Lots of AM stations took them up on the offer. The catch? If the AM goes away so does the FM, so there's some incentive there to keep the lights on. One interesting phenomenon is that stations with complicated multi-tower directional arrays are reducing their power and eliminating the extra towers to reduce maintenance costs. Another factor is that AM stations are often built on valuable land. More than one large AM station has gone silent because the land the towers sit on is more valuable than the station itself.

Also, many newer vehicles have dropped physical media entirely in favor of Bluetooth. Cassette players were no longer offered at the end of 2000s, while CD players started to be eliminated in the late 2010s.

As a former radio employee (I worked in both AM and FM radio stations) and current HAM licensed, I would propose the following:  Since many current lower powered AM stations are now also broadcasting on an FM translator and their current AM station is a small part of their remaining listenership I would go back to a time when we had clear channel stations and make them a priority over the entire country (with a federal body reviewing past broadcasting setups and locations) so that each AM frequency would have a very limited number of stations (perhaps 1, 2, or 3) very distant from each other and the 50,000 blowtorch clear channel stations might be alone for 1000-1500 miles.  There are areas that are very remote or mountainous (or both) where FM signals really don't serve the populous, and not everyone will pony up for Sirius XM or have cell phone wifi (same reason for bad FM signals) and could use that AM signal.

Quote from: Life in Paradise on February 28, 2023, 01:41:02 PM
As a former radio employee (I worked in both AM and FM radio stations) and current HAM licensed, I would propose the following:  Since many current lower powered AM stations are now also broadcasting on an FM translator and their current AM station is a small part of their remaining listenership I would go back to a time when we had clear channel stations and make them a priority over the entire country (with a federal body reviewing past broadcasting setups and locations) so that each AM frequency would have a very limited number of stations (perhaps 1, 2, or 3) very distant from each other and the 50,000 blowtorch clear channel stations might be alone for 1000-1500 miles.  There are areas that are very remote or mountainous (or both) where FM signals really don't serve the populous, and not everyone will pony up for Sirius XM or have cell phone wifi (same reason for bad FM signals) and could use that AM signal.

Got my vote!  I can still remember picking (then) KULA (and later KKUA) in Honolulu at 690 kHz in West Virginia on many Friday and Saturday nights, with the signal typically cranking up about 4 hours after our local WCAW (680 kHz) went dark.  I'd spend about 10 minutes with them, then go looking for something else a long distance away.

Does anyone else literally get sick to their stomach because radio has gotten so bad?

Quote from: bandit957 on March 21, 2023, 11:49:14 AM
Does anyone else literally get sick to their stomach because radio has gotten so bad?

I would agree, but it's the same thing with television/cable.  Yes there are great things being done, but you really have to look for the gems among the cesspool that surrounds it.  I'm not a big fan of reality TV, since to me it's nothing more than a cloak of "reality" with a script.  Also with local television stations, they have become so dependent upon news driving income, you get hours and hours of the same thing, just like cable news (you pick the network).
And television, just like radio has become a place for ads (but drive time was always like that).  That's why I've moved more over to satellite.

Quote from: bandit957 on March 21, 2023, 11:49:14 AMDoes anyone else literally get sick to their stomach because radio has gotten so bad?

If you are talking about terrestrial radio, I wouldn't really know as I only listen to the Classical music station. Most of the time, it's either an audiobook or music from either my home media server or Apple music.

Quote from: bandit957 on March 21, 2023, 11:49:14 AM
Does anyone else literally get sick to their stomach because radio has gotten so bad?

In the world of spotify and podcasts, there really isn't a huge audience that listens to radio consistantly and really cares about it. Who wants to listen to radio with ads when spotify premium exists?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2023, 02:59:56 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on March 21, 2023, 11:49:14 AM
Does anyone else literally get sick to their stomach because radio has gotten so bad?

In the world of spotify and podcasts, there really isn't a huge audience that listens to radio consistantly and really cares about it. Who wants to listen to radio with ads when spotify premium exists?

That costs money.

Radio used to be better before 1996, even with ads.

Quote from: bandit957 on March 21, 2023, 03:00:49 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2023, 02:59:56 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on March 21, 2023, 11:49:14 AM
Does anyone else literally get sick to their stomach because radio has gotten so bad?

In the world of spotify and podcasts, there really isn't a huge audience that listens to radio consistantly and really cares about it. Who wants to listen to radio with ads when spotify premium exists?

That costs money.

Radio used to be better before 1996, even with ads.

Even spotify free with ads has less ads than the radio. Nobody wants to listen to 15 minutes of music than 10 minutes of ads, and repeat.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2023, 02:59:56 PM
In the world of spotify and podcasts, there really isn't a huge audience that listens to radio consistantly and really cares about it. Who wants to listen to radio with ads when spotify premium exists?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2023, 03:02:59 PM
Even spotify free with ads has less ads than the radio. Nobody wants to listen to 15 minutes of music than 10 minutes of ads, and repeat.

1.  I don't have Spotify or podcasts or whatever in my car.

2.  I have six radio station presets in my car, plus two others that I know are just a single push of the seek button away from one of the presets.  When ads come on, I simply switch to another station I like with the push of a button.

Quote from: kphoger on March 21, 2023, 03:09:03 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2023, 02:59:56 PM
In the world of spotify and podcasts, there really isn't a huge audience that listens to radio consistantly and really cares about it. Who wants to listen to radio with ads when spotify premium exists?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 21, 2023, 03:02:59 PM
Even spotify free with ads has less ads than the radio. Nobody wants to listen to 15 minutes of music than 10 minutes of ads, and repeat.

1.  I don't have Spotify or podcasts or whatever in my car.

2.  I have six radio station presets in my car, plus two others that I know are just a single push of the seek button away from one of the presets.  When ads come on, I simply switch to another station I like with the push of a button.

For your second point, I do scroll through channels during ads as a passenger. Though often times, especially when leaving greater Boston, it can be hard to find multiple radio stations that everyone in the car likes. I find spotify to be much more simple and easier. Plus you can skip songs you don't like or want to listen to.

Quote from: bandit957 on March 21, 2023, 11:49:14 AM
Does anyone else literally get sick to their stomach because radio has gotten so bad?

No, radio only makes me figuratively sick.

(And most of the time I'm listing to NPR, which is by no means perfect but is a lot better than the commercial stations.)

Quote from: kphoger on March 21, 2023, 03:09:03 PMI have six radio station presets in my car, plus two others that I know are just a single push of the seek button away from one of the presets.  When ads come on, I simply switch to another station I like with the push of a button.

Wait until you get a "super commercial" which is the same radio ad purchased across multiple stations (usually within the same station group) and timed to air at the same time. It's especially worse when it's a political advertisement.

Quote from: bandit957 on March 21, 2023, 11:49:14 AMDoes anyone else literally get sick to their stomach because radio has gotten so bad?

It depends on what aspect you are talking about. Outside of Christmas music last December, I stopped listening to commercial terrestrial stations years ago because the amount of actual content (e.g. music) got outweighed by the amount of commercials and fluff by the announcers. As for the news stations, yes, it's biased and designed to appeal to a demographic for advertising, but I found better details reading an online article. I usually have my radio set to the local classical music station (https://markholtz.info/wrr101) because my errands in my car is 10 minutes or less, and it's not worth the small amount of trouble to start something on my mobile phone. Also, most of the Dallas-area stations (https://markholtz.info/dfwradio) either have music formats that do not appeal to me or are non-English (yes, there are several Asian stations in DFW).

From GM Authority:

Ford To Phase Out AM Radio In Its New Vehicles

QuoteCrosstown rival Ford is set to phase out AM radio functionality in its new vehicles, starting with the all-new 2024 Ford Mustang and 2023 Ford F-150 Lightning EV pickup truck.

As reported by GM Authority sister-publication Ford Authority, almost all Ford vehicles — except commercial vehicles — will have AM radio functionality omitted sometime in the near future. This means that only the Ford Super Duty, Transit family, E-Series, and F-650/750 Stripped Chassis models will retain their AM radio in North America.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ql)

From Inside Radio:

NAB Launches "˜Depend on AM Radio' Campaign

QuoteWith AM radios being left out of numerous EVs due to reception interference, NAB unveils a new campaign highlighting the importance of AM radio in the car for news, community engagement, entertainment, and vital public safety information. The campaign includes a website with a grassroots call to action and new tools stations can use to highlight the importance of AM radio. NAB is urging all radio stations to participate in reminding listeners what makes AM radio unique.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2qm)

Quote from: ZLoth on April 16, 2023, 01:08:24 AM
NAB Launches "˜Depend on AM Radio' Campaign

QuoteWith AM radios being left out of numerous EVs due to reception interference, NAB unveils a new campaign highlighting the importance of AM radio in the car for news, community engagement, entertainment, and vital public safety information. The campaign includes a website with a grassroots call to action and new tools stations can use to highlight the importance of AM radio. NAB is urging all radio stations to participate in reminding listeners what makes AM radio unique.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2qm)

"Nobody listens to AM Radio anymore"

"AM Radio had 82 million listeners last month!"

"But were they unique listeners?"

/static................./

Quote"With a monthly audience of 82 million Americans, AM radio is a cornerstone of everyday life for many that also serves a critical, life-saving function during extreme weather and natural disasters,"  NAB President and CEO Curtis LeGeyt said in a release

Then, why not include the NOAA Weather radio frequencies at 162.400 to 162.550? It is technically feasible after all with the digital tuners.

_static, crackle_

I should note that KEC56 which is the local NOAA station in DFW and KEC57 for Sacramento are both available through the Radio Garden (https://markholtz.info/radiogarden) app, and there are several apps in the store to tune in those stations as well. In addition, in a emergency situation, the FM station will go into simulcast mode and rebroadcast the AM station.

Are there any frequencies that should not be able to be tuned into, or would it be fine for any station to be allowed at all? For example, various frequencies around 121 FM get airports, which is legal in the US as long as you're not speaking into a two-way radio. I'm not sure if any frequencies allow Sirius XM without paying.

(Interestingly, one of the hangars at Lawrence Municipal Airport says "FUEL 122.85" on the front near the top. I thought it was a radio station while I was there, and I may still be right, but it turns out that the elevation of the airport is also about this number, so I'm not so sure.)

[edited for grammar]

Quote from: 1 on April 16, 2023, 09:10:48 AM
Are there any frequencies that should not be able to be tuned into, or would it be fine for any station to be allowed at all? For example, various frequencies around 121 FM get airports, which is legal in the US as long as you're not speaking into a two-way radio. I'm not sure if any frequencies allow Sirius XM without paying.

(Interestingly, one of the hangars at Lawrence Municipal Airport says "FUEL 122.85" on the front near the top. I thought it was radio station while I was there, and I may still be right, but it turns out that the elevation of the airport is also about this number, so I'm not so sure.)

That's a radio frequency.  Not sure if it's still in use given current docs at Lawrence.

Quote from: Rothman on April 16, 2023, 09:15:00 AM

Quote from: 1 on April 16, 2023, 09:10:48 AM
Are there any frequencies that should not be able to be tuned into, or would it be fine for any station to be allowed at all? For example, various frequencies around 121 FM get airports, which is legal in the US as long as you're not speaking into a two-way radio. I'm not sure if any frequencies allow Sirius XM without paying.

(Interestingly, one of the hangars at Lawrence Municipal Airport says "FUEL 122.85" on the front near the top. I thought it was radio station while I was there, and I may still be right, but it turns out that the elevation of the airport is also about this number, so I'm not so sure.)

That's a radio frequency.  Not sure if it's still in use given current docs at Lawrence.

https://skyvector.com/airport/LWM/Lawrence-Municipal-Airport

Tune in, turn out, fuel up.

Quote from: formulanone on April 16, 2023, 11:23:32 AM

Quote from: Rothman on April 16, 2023, 09:15:00 AM

Quote from: 1 on April 16, 2023, 09:10:48 AM
Are there any frequencies that should not be able to be tuned into, or would it be fine for any station to be allowed at all? For example, various frequencies around 121 FM get airports, which is legal in the US as long as you're not speaking into a two-way radio. I'm not sure if any frequencies allow Sirius XM without paying.

(Interestingly, one of the hangars at Lawrence Municipal Airport says "FUEL 122.85" on the front near the top. I thought it was radio station while I was there, and I may still be right, but it turns out that the elevation of the airport is also about this number, so I'm not so sure.)

That's a radio frequency.  Not sure if it's still in use given current docs at Lawrence.

https://skyvector.com/airport/LWM/Lawrence-Municipal-Airport

Tune in, turn out, fuel up.

Well, yes, that's what I saw.  I'm probably missing it somewhere in there, but I don't see 122.85 in there -- only 122.8 UNICOM.

Quote from: 1 on April 16, 2023, 09:10:48 AM
Are there any frequencies that should not be able to be tuned into, or would it be fine for any station to be allowed at all?

Back in the day of analog cell phones, their frequencies were banned in the US, but I don't know if that rule is still enforced now.

The National Association of Broadcasters should be moving heaven and earth to put more HD radios in the hands of consumers.  European consumers can easily buy radios with DAB (Digital Audio Broadcasting) but I haven't had much luck finding a portable HD radio with Bluetooth for myself.  I found on Amazon a 2006 new old stock radio with bad rechargeable batteries.  The review section complained about how the batteries failed after just a few charge cycles.  Since most AM stations simulcast on their FM sister stations' HD streams, HD radios would be a good workaround for the death of AM.

They must figure most consumers would just stream stations on their phones, but HD access is good for one thing: I could continue to listen to baseball games for free at work where I can't receive AM stations.  It costs $10 a month to subscribe to a Major League Baseball audio package, and last year they had poor board op monitoring of the games, inserting three minute + ad blocks into games that are supposed to have 90 second breaks.  I can live without the games until I know for sure they have fixed the problem.

Quote from: ErmineNotyours on April 18, 2023, 11:02:31 PM
The National Association of Broadcasters should be moving heaven and earth to put more HD radios in the hands of consumers.  European consumers can easily buy radios with DAB (Digital Audio Broadcasting) but I haven't had much luck finding a portable HD radio with Bluetooth for myself.

Good luck with that. I plugged in the ZIP code for where I live in North Dallas in the HD Radio site (https://hdradio.com/) and got ZERO stations. The only way I got a list was to plug in the zip code of 75223. Then, what I saw was four AM stations (three in Spanish) in HD, plus about twenty-five stations broadcasting in HD (not including the sub-channels). Unlike the transition from analog to digital television, there is no frequencies to be reclaimed and resold with any transition to digital. Didn't General Motors drop support for HD Radios in their vehicles back in 2015? It's more viable for the broadcaster to be streaming the audio through a App or Website.

Quote from: ZLoth on April 19, 2023, 05:02:55 AM

Quote from: ErmineNotyours on April 18, 2023, 11:02:31 PM
The National Association of Broadcasters should be moving heaven and earth to put more HD radios in the hands of consumers.  European consumers can easily buy radios with DAB (Digital Audio Broadcasting) but I haven't had much luck finding a portable HD radio with Bluetooth for myself.

Good luck with that. I plugged in the ZIP code for where I live in North Dallas in the HD Radio site (https://hdradio.com/) and got ZERO stations. The only way I got a list was to plug in the zip code of 75223. Then, what I saw was four AM stations (three in Spanish) in HD, plus about twenty-five stations broadcasting in HD (not including the sub-channels). Unlike the transition from analog to digital television, there is no frequencies to be reclaimed and resold with any transition to digital. Didn't General Motors drop support for HD Radios in their vehicles back in 2015? It's more viable for the broadcaster to be streaming the audio through a App or Website.

If the National Association of Broadcasters cares about the local broadcast model, they will try to conduct an orderly transition to digital.  If all stations go to streaming, then they're competing against podcasts and anyone who can set up a stream anywhere in the world.  The only advantage stations would have is that they can license ASCAP and BMI music, and they'll sic the music rights companies on the smaller streamers.  That worked so well when the RIAA did the same to consumers not long ago.

Senator Ed Markey is trying to stop the removal:

https://www.wpri.com/target-12/sen-markey-battles-tesla-ford-over-decision-to-stop-putting-am-radio-in-all-cars/

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on May 04, 2023, 09:45:44 AM
Senator Ed Markey is trying to stop the removal:

https://www.wpri.com/target-12/sen-markey-battles-tesla-ford-over-decision-to-stop-putting-am-radio-in-all-cars/

:rolleyes:

Quote from: SectorZ on May 04, 2023, 10:17:18 AM

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on May 04, 2023, 09:45:44 AM
Senator Ed Markey is trying to stop the removal: https://www.wpri.com/target-12/sen-markey-battles-tesla-ford-over-decision-to-stop-putting-am-radio-in-all-cars/

:rolleyes:

Oh, that's right, because you can't receive AM radio stations in any other manner other than your car radio. :-D And, there are absolutely no other alternatives to get a AM station. :crazy:

The Emergency Alert System is a "voluntary" mandatory system. So, if the Primary/Secondary EAS station issues a EAS alert, all of the other TV, AM, and FM stations along with the cable providers have to stop what they are doing, drop whatever they are broadcasting, and roll with broadcasting that alert. You can take a look at the enforcement actions that the FCC has taken when a station had a non-functioning EAS unit or when the EAS signal was used as part of commercial. Plus, in a severe situation, the FM stations have rebroadcast their AM counterpart.

Of course Ed Markey is for keeping AM radio in his home territory where blue talk radio rules. But in the other 90% of the country, the opposite holds.

Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2023, 01:04:54 AM
Of course Ed Markey is for keeping AM radio in his home territory where blue talk radio rules. But in the other 90% of the country, the opposite holds.

You would assume that's how it works in Massachusetts, but you would be wrong. The only explicitly blue talk radio I've had around me was whatever Air America affiliate we had.

Quote from: SectorZ on May 08, 2023, 12:51:57 PM

Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2023, 01:04:54 AM
Of course Ed Markey is for keeping AM radio in his home territory where blue talk radio rules. But in the other 90% of the country, the opposite holds.

You would assume that's how it works in Massachusetts, but you would be wrong. The only explicitly blue talk radio I've had around me was whatever Air America affiliate we had.

My word.  Dan Yorke is still around?

From Radio World:

5 Ways to Turn AM Radio Around
"Challenge assumptions and question every tactic," says Gary Begin
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2qt)

All right then....

Quote from: SectorZ on May 08, 2023, 12:51:57 PM

Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2023, 01:04:54 AM
Of course Ed Markey is for keeping AM radio in his home territory where blue talk radio rules. But in the other 90% of the country, the opposite holds.

You would assume that's how it works in Massachusetts, but you would be wrong. The only explicitly blue talk radio I've had around me was whatever Air America affiliate we had.

Don't confuse him with facts. That would destroy his narrative.

Actually, saving AM radio is (at least on its face) a bipartisan effort. Naturally, the rationales for doing so are different.


https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/17/23727341/cars-am-radio-ev-senate-bill-markey-cruz

For those wondering about the economics of AM radio, a daytime-only AM (with a low-power FM repeater) station in my area was recently sold to WNRN for $310k: https://rbr.com/an-old-dominion-adult-alternative-operator-grows/

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on May 20, 2023, 01:45:04 PM
Actually, saving AM radio is (at least on its face) a bipartisan effort. Naturally, the rationales for doing so are different.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/17/23727341/cars-am-radio-ev-senate-bill-markey-cruz

I guess automakers could have AM radios installed in the cars...but with the interference from other equipment, the occupants wouldn't be able to hear it anyway.

Ford to keep AM radios in cars:

https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/23/ford-to-keep-am-radio-in-cars-after-pressure-from-lawmakers/

Quote from: golden eagle on May 25, 2023, 10:34:09 PM
Ford to keep AM radios in cars:

https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/23/ford-to-keep-am-radio-in-cars-after-pressure-from-lawmakers/

"Software update" to put them back in the F150 Lightning and Mustang Wall-E. So, you mean the AM radios have been there the whole time, but "fuck you, we intended on charging $8/month until Ted Cruz scared us so now you're getting it back"?

Quote from: SectorZ on May 26, 2023, 06:53:58 AM

Quote from: golden eagle on May 25, 2023, 10:34:09 PM
Ford to keep AM radios in cars:

https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/23/ford-to-keep-am-radio-in-cars-after-pressure-from-lawmakers/

"Software update" to put them back in the F150 Lightning and Mustang Wall-E. So, you mean the AM radios have been there the whole time, but "fuck you, we intended on charging $8/month until Ted Cruz scared us so now you're getting it back"?

It's possible that the cars were designed to allow any frequency, the user could select just the FM range before, and now the user can select the AM and FM ranges (but still not others like those used for air traffic control).

Quote from: 1 on May 26, 2023, 06:58:43 AM

Quote from: SectorZ on May 26, 2023, 06:53:58 AM

Quote from: golden eagle on May 25, 2023, 10:34:09 PM
Ford to keep AM radios in cars:

https://techcrunch.com/2023/05/23/ford-to-keep-am-radio-in-cars-after-pressure-from-lawmakers/

"Software update" to put them back in the F150 Lightning and Mustang Wall-E. So, you mean the AM radios have been there the whole time, but "fuck you, we intended on charging $8/month until Ted Cruz scared us so now you're getting it back"?

It's possible that the cars were designed to allow any frequency, the user could select just the FM range before, and now the user can select the AM and FM ranges (but still not others like those used for air traffic control).

Some flavor of SDR, possibly with off the specs tricks to get AM. Possibly with no quality...

It has been eluded to earlier in this thread, but the main issue with AM radio in automobiles that have large inverters is RFI (radio frequency interface, in this case a subset of electromagnetic interference resonating down in the audio range and low radio bandwidths).  From my [rail transit] point of view, it is an easy fix:  just slap a cheap Faraday cage around the inverter.  In automotive terms, that Faraday cage eats up a little bit of very precious space, but moreover, it makes maintenance access to the inverter system very complicated.

I'm not as familiar with the FCC interference rules as I ought to have been.  But in a nutshell, the electronics industry handles the two main sections of RFI/EFI differently.  Ergo, (A) they [try] to avoid interference with other people's stuff by mitigating the effective distance that RFI/EFI can have an impact; and (B) they [must] avoid interference with their own stuff.  One way to avoid interference with your own stuff is to eliminate the "gizmos" that are most prone to suffering from RFI/EFI. 

I occasionally use the AM band in my search of old-timey Bluegrass music.  I can immediately tell which truckers have a huge inverter on their big rig, because I lose the AM station to major league interference while I am in close proximity to the cab.  None of these appear to be battery-powered trucks, so I assume that they've got a bunch of electronics hooked in (such as satellite TV/Internet and other data services).  Additionally, some manufacturers now provide large battery backups for HVAC systems (Freightliner claims a 10-hour HVAC backup).

Quote from: Dirt Roads on May 26, 2023, 12:37:32 PM
It has been eluded to earlier in this thread, but the main issue with AM radio in automobiles that have large inverters is RFI (radio frequency interface, in this case a subset of electromagnetic interference resonating down in the audio range and low radio bandwidths).  From my [rail transit] point of view, it is an easy fix:  just slap a cheap Faraday cage around the inverter.  In automotive terms, that Faraday cage eats up a little bit of very precious space, but moreover, it makes maintenance access to the inverter system very complicated.

I'm not as familiar with the FCC interference rules as I ought to have been.  But in a nutshell, the electronics industry handles the two main sections of RFI/EFI differently.  Ergo, (A) they [try] to avoid interference with other people's stuff by mitigating the effective distance that RFI/EFI can have an impact; and (B) they [must] avoid interference with their own stuff.  One way to avoid interference with your own stuff is to eliminate the "gizmos" that are most prone to suffering from RFI/EFI. 

I occasionally use the AM band in my search of old-timey Bluegrass music.  I can immediately tell which truckers have a huge inverter on their big rig, because I lose the AM station to major league interference while I am in close proximity to the cab.  None of these appear to be battery-powered trucks, so I assume that they've got a bunch of electronics hooked in (such as satellite TV/Internet and other data services).  Additionally, some manufacturers now provide large battery backups for HVAC systems (Freightliner claims a 10-hour HVAC backup).

Faraday cage works for electric field, but screening out magnetic field is much more difficult. Given most AM  use magnetic ferrite antenna... I doubt mu-metal shield is anything close to affordable in the car world.

From Twins Daily (posted as satire):

With TV Rights in Flux, Twins Urge Parents to Explain AM Radio to Young Fans

Quote
While the expiration of the Twins' TV contract is leading to a lot of agitation about the team's 2024 payroll, there's also some concern within the organization about where people can follow next year's games.

"I'm confident that we'll have a presence on television next year," said a front office source. "But we have to be prepared for all possible outcomes."

If that outcome doesn't extend beyond the team's current radio broadcasts, team officials say they're laying the groundwork for a vigorous educational outreach program about the audio-only format.

"AM radio has a loyal base of listeners—shut-ins, reactionaries, those who fear change, residents of unlicensed nursing homes—but that base skews older," said the source. "We need to let our younger fans know that an alternative to TV and streaming exists. Their parents are our greatest tool."

SATIRICAL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2sy)

From GM Authority:

EV AM Radio Integration Will Cost Billons, Study Finds

QuoteA new study by the Center for Automotive Research indicates the shielding and filtering needed to prevent the electromagnetic field of EV systems from interfering with analog AM radio signals could cost billions of dollars to implement.

As reported by CarGroup, the study was conducted because of political plans to require automakers to include AM radio equipment in their EV models to receive emergency broadcasts.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2sz)

From Inside Radio:

NAB Says 2.2 Pounds Isn't A Heavy Burden To Keep AM Radio In Dashboards

QuoteHow much does the fix for AM radio in electric vehicles weigh? Not much, considering how much an EV weighs. That is the message from the National Association of Broadcasters, dispelling some of the arguments raised this week by the auto industry trying to block a bill in Congress that would require AM radio receivers in vehicles.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2t0)

From Car and Driver:

Don't Touch That Dial: AM Car Radio Is Not Dead Yet
Not if the U.S. Congress has anything to say about it. The lawmakers want it mandated in all vehicles so it can be used for emergency and safety notifications.

Quote

• The AM For Every Vehicle Act is close to passing, making broadcast AM capability a requirement in new cars sold in the United States.
• The Act has wide support in both Senate and Congress, on both sides of the aisle.
• Proponents say passing the Act is about providing emergency services or free speech. But there is a cost to manufacturers.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2tz)

S.1669 - AM Radio for Every Vehicle Act of 2023 (https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/1669)

Quote from: ZLoth on February 07, 2024, 09:10:17 AM
From Car and Driver:

Don't Touch That Dial: AM Car Radio Is Not Dead Yet
Not if the U.S. Congress has anything to say about it. The lawmakers want it mandated in all vehicles so it can be used for emergency and safety notifications.

Quote

• The AM For Every Vehicle Act is close to passing, making broadcast AM capability a requirement in new cars sold in the United States.
• The Act has wide support in both Senate and Congress, on both sides of the aisle.
• Proponents say passing the Act is about providing emergency services or free speech. But there is a cost to manufacturers.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2tz)

They should amend it with handcrank included with every car for emergency starts.  Also ban LED lights and EVs while we're at this. 

Quote from: ZLoth on February 07, 2024, 09:10:17 AM
From Car and Driver:

Don't Touch That Dial: AM Car Radio Is Not Dead Yet
Not if the U.S. Congress has anything to say about it. The lawmakers want it mandated in all vehicles so it can be used for emergency and safety notifications.

Quote

• The AM For Every Vehicle Act is close to passing, making broadcast AM capability a requirement in new cars sold in the United States.
• The Act has wide support in both Senate and Congress, on both sides of the aisle.
• Proponents say passing the Act is about providing emergency services or free speech. But there is a cost to manufacturers.

FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2tz)

As far as I know, radios and audio equipment aren't mandated in cars currently. And there's no mandate AM stations must be aired and transmitted, nor that they must reach all areas of the country, nor that they must air emergency announcements.

Plus, even if they do air an emergency announcement, there's no guarantee the driver will have the radio turned on at any given time.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 07, 2024, 10:24:15 AMAnd there's no mandate AM stations must be aired and transmitted, nor that they must reach all areas of the country, nor that they must air emergency announcements.

See https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-11 . If you listen to the EAS alerts, you will often hear the term "voluntary cooperation", and the FCC does come down HARD on stations who do not have proper EAS equipment.

Of course, if they are mandating carriage of AM stations on car radios, why not also mandate the carriage of the NWS frequencies? They are just slightly higher in the FM band, but the National Association of Broadcasters may disagree with that suggested mandate.

Mandating the NWS frequencies would probably be more useful, especially with the states discontinuing Highway Advisory Radio.  Couldn't repeaters be used in areas where FM is sparse?

Quote from: ZLoth on February 07, 2024, 11:29:27 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 07, 2024, 10:24:15 AMAnd there's no mandate AM stations must be aired and transmitted, nor that they must reach all areas of the country, nor that they must air emergency announcements.

See https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-11 . If you listen to the EAS alerts, you will often hear the term "voluntary cooperation", and the FCC does come down HARD on stations who do not have proper EAS equipment.

Of course, if they are mandating carriage of AM stations on car radios, why not also mandate the carriage of the NWS frequencies? They are just slightly higher in the FM band, but the National Association of Broadcasters may disagree with that suggested mandate.

One would think with today's technology a car radio could be set up to automatically come one if an EAS signal was received and go to the strongest signal (either AM or FM) to broadcast the message.  Weather radios are set up to go off for warnings.