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Automakers Are Starting to Drop AM Radio in New Cars. Here's Why

Started by ZLoth, July 07, 2022, 05:13:20 AM

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bandit957

There used to also be cars with FM-only radios. Once in the early '80s, we went to some event where someone showed off a brand new, very expensive sports car. I noticed the radio only had FM.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool


seicer

Quote from: Dirt Roads on July 08, 2022, 06:07:22 PM
Back to the AM interference issue.  High-torque electric motors are notorious for EMI and RFI issues.  As is almost always the case, these problems occur when power cables are not twisted properly.  The older technology in the rapid transit industry used a chopped DC voltage for motor control, generally at 600 VDC (nowadays 720VDC) and with as many as six motors per railcar, you only needed two power cables to the motor and thus you could use #2/0 conductors (which can carry up to 325 amps).  Those are less than 1/2-inch in diameter, and even though it is no fun, the factory could twist the cables together to filter out noise.  This became a bigger problem as we switched away from DC motors and started using variable voltages.

I suspect that the battery cables themselves are more the issue in the Electric Vehicle industry.  Indeed, Tesla uses a 375-volt battery that has a 400 amp fuse between its rear battery bank and middle battery bank.   That means a jump to #4/0 conductors that are rated for 440 amps maximum.  Anyhow, these monster cables are almost 3/4-inch in diameter and I seriously doubt that any EV manufacturer even thought about bundling the positive and negative together so that they can be twisted to get rid of EMI and RFI.  After all, most folks associate this problem with alternating current.  But cables that big turn into powerful antennae that essentially pick up certain radio frequencies and turn it into RFI noise in the lower bands.  Yuck.

Thanks for that.

I wonder if it would be worth it considering AM/FM's decline over the years. While both still command presence, there is more money to be made by getting a cut of subscriptions to XM and other connected services.

roadman65

Quote from: seicer on July 09, 2022, 10:58:21 AM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on July 08, 2022, 06:07:22 PM
Back to the AM interference issue.  High-torque electric motors are notorious for EMI and RFI issues.  As is almost always the case, these problems occur when power cables are not twisted properly.  The older technology in the rapid transit industry used a chopped DC voltage for motor control, generally at 600 VDC (nowadays 720VDC) and with as many as six motors per railcar, you only needed two power cables to the motor and thus you could use #2/0 conductors (which can carry up to 325 amps).  Those are less than 1/2-inch in diameter, and even though it is no fun, the factory could twist the cables together to filter out noise.  This became a bigger problem as we switched away from DC motors and started using variable voltages.

I suspect that the battery cables themselves are more the issue in the Electric Vehicle industry.  Indeed, Tesla uses a 375-volt battery that has a 400 amp fuse between its rear battery bank and middle battery bank.   That means a jump to #4/0 conductors that are rated for 440 amps maximum.  Anyhow, these monster cables are almost 3/4-inch in diameter and I seriously doubt that any EV manufacturer even thought about bundling the positive and negative together so that they can be twisted to get rid of EMI and RFI.  After all, most folks associate this problem with alternating current.  But cables that big turn into powerful antennae that essentially pick up certain radio frequencies and turn it into RFI noise in the lower bands.  Yuck.

Thanks for that.

I wonder if it would be worth it considering AM/FM's decline over the years. While both still command presence, there is more money to be made by getting a cut of subscriptions to XM and other connected services.

The only reason AM stayed this long was the Baby Boomers who lost interest in music.  Hey considering both 8 Track and VHS both died as fast as they rose, AM had a nice long life.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

bandit957

I always liked 8-tracks.

I was disappointed when my family sold all our 8-tracks without telling me. We had John Denver, Jim Croce, Billy Joel. All gone now.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

PurdueBill

Hopefully the American car makers hold the line on it.  The first thing I do when driving to Chicago is try to pull in WBBM 780 starting around South Bend heading westbound if it is still daylight.  At night, I can get it at home in the driveway in Ohio--along with WBZ Boston, WCBS New York, KYW Philadelphia.  When visiting LA in a rental car, first thing is turning on KNX.  Reliable traffic reports on those as well as weather, news, etc. and no need to try to stream or something, draining the battery of the cell phone.  Being able to pull in WBBM from a much longer distance on AM than on the FM that it now simulcasts on allows for better planning. 

The sentimental value of the AM receivers in vehicles will always be with me too; when I was growing up near Boston, my Dad always would go out to his van before sunset to hear WKXS-AM Boston (which at the time played Music of Your Life type programming) play Glenn Miller's Moonlight Serenade as the last song every day before signing off at sunset (they were daytime only).  Later in the evening, he would like to pull in WOWO from Fort Wayne which was at the time a clear channel; we always listened for the mention of the World-Famous WOWO Fire Escape. 

bandit957

One of the problems with car radios abandoning AM and putting AM stations out of business altogether is that a lot of the garbage on AM will invade FM. And it truly is garbage. I don't just mean opinionated talk shows, since those may be the least of our worries now. There's a lot of empty-headed mumbo-jumbo on AM now besides that. We're starting to get into infomercial territory here.

And that's with FM being miserable enough as it is.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

SP Cook

IMHO,

- At least around here, all of the AM stations that are serious efforts, have been given FM repeaters.  These generally have much shorter range than the AM station.  Most stations continue to use the AM branding, much like digital TV stations use PSIP to fake the channel numbers they used to be on.  For example, one local station is "58 WCHS and then in much small type 96.5 and 104.5 FM". 

- People have been predicting the demise of AM radio since at least the mid-60s. 

- The Spanish issue is real.  Since at least the mid-80s, AM has found niche markets.  Spanish or, in some places, other languages, niche music formats, other political opinions besides the MSM, etc.  This won't change.

- The rural issue is a thing too.  Not everybody likes music.  Many listen to talk or sport talk exclusively (I do).  Some people are just not going to pay for SXM and cannot get a cell phone signal.

- SXM (which probably has maybe 10 years left before it goes away), and the various apps are about NATIONAL political, NATIONAL sports, and NATIONAL "other" talk.  All good. But LOCAL politics and LOCAL sports are different formats and also worthy.

- Car makers seem to only make a token effort at AM anymore.  My last two cars got AM reception that was really poor. 

kalvado

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
One of the problems with car radios abandoning AM and putting AM stations out of business altogether is that a lot of the garbage on AM will invade FM. And it truly is garbage. I don't just mean opinionated talk shows, since those may be the least of our worries now. There's a lot of empty-headed mumbo-jumbo on AM now besides that. We're starting to get into infomercial territory here.

And that's with FM being miserable enough as it is.
Thinking from the other side - these AM stations likely use 50+ year transmitters and antenna assemblies. They, with little audience, wouldn't be able to afford serious maintenance or replacement - and those wavelengths warrant large structures - and likely going the way towards natural die out.

YouTube channel, on the other hand, costs nothing to keep alive....

seicer

Quote from: kalvado on July 09, 2022, 06:01:17 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
One of the problems with car radios abandoning AM and putting AM stations out of business altogether is that a lot of the garbage on AM will invade FM. And it truly is garbage. I don't just mean opinionated talk shows, since those may be the least of our worries now. There's a lot of empty-headed mumbo-jumbo on AM now besides that. We're starting to get into infomercial territory here.

And that's with FM being miserable enough as it is.
Thinking from the other side - these AM stations likely use 50+ year transmitters and antenna assemblies. They, with little audience, wouldn't be able to afford serious maintenance or replacement - and those wavelengths warrant large structures - and likely going the way towards natural die out.

YouTube channel, on the other hand, costs nothing to keep alive....

Servers (that house those videos) are very costly to construct and maintain. Nothing is free.

kalvado

Quote from: seicer on July 09, 2022, 06:38:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 09, 2022, 06:01:17 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
One of the problems with car radios abandoning AM and putting AM stations out of business altogether is that a lot of the garbage on AM will invade FM. And it truly is garbage. I don't just mean opinionated talk shows, since those may be the least of our worries now. There's a lot of empty-headed mumbo-jumbo on AM now besides that. We're starting to get into infomercial territory here.

And that's with FM being miserable enough as it is.
Thinking from the other side - these AM stations likely use 50+ year transmitters and antenna assemblies. They, with little audience, wouldn't be able to afford serious maintenance or replacement - and those wavelengths warrant large structures - and likely going the way towards natural die out.

YouTube channel, on the other hand, costs nothing to keep alive....

Servers (that house those videos) are very costly to construct and maintain. Nothing is free.
Sure, but those costs are diluted and shared between users, and YouTube gets ad revenue to pay for those.
Other than storage, most server side costs are scaled per user. Unlike AM antenna tower which needs same maintenance for 2 million and 20 user base.

Scott5114

A server is way cheaper than an AM antenna, even if you're the only one using it.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

zachary_amaryllis

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 11:28:20 AM
I always liked 8-tracks.

I was disappointed when my family sold all our 8-tracks without telling me. We had John Denver, Jim Croce, Billy Joel. All gone now.
And the matchbook you always seemed to need to wedge under the tape so it would play right.
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)

ZLoth

Like I said earlier in this thread...

Quote from: ZLoth on July 07, 2022, 11:04:20 AM
To be honest, I stopped listening to terrestrial radio stations on a regular basis for several years already, instead utilizing either SiriusXM or the Bluetooth connection. (text deleted) Maybe it's because it feels like you are getting 20 minutes of content and 40 minutes of commercials when you listen to the radio.

And then this gets posted...

Quote from: SP Cook on July 09, 2022, 04:34:38 PMBut LOCAL politics and LOCAL sports are different formats and also worthy.

Depends on if the station is locally owned and operated, or if they are simply part of a bigger conglomerate that is being programmed remotely. And, one of the annoying things is setting up a "super-commercial" which is broadcast across multiple stations at the same time.

As far as I can see, the media landscape and how we consume media has gone though multiple evolutions since KDKA first went on the air in 1920. While you could install a radio in your car at that point, multiple technical issues meant that you could only listen when the car was shut off. That made it as convenient as being along your own orchestra. It wasn't until the 1930s that the technical issues were resolved, and car radio was available as an option, but for most folks, it was the only way to listen to your favorite music as records were still very expensive. While FM was available back in the early 1950s, there was low adoption as the station owners feared that FM would cannibalize their AM audience, and it didn't take off until the 1970s. We had 8-track tapes in cars as early as 1965, cassette tapes in the early 1970s, and CDs in 1985, but they respective died out in the early 1980s for eight-tracks, 2005-2010 for cassettes, and recently for CDs. The mobile phones and the Bluetooth connection is a viable alternative.

When I take a look at the Dallas radio market, I see the following on the AM side:

  • 8 Asian stations
  • 11 News, News/Talk, or Talk
  • 5 Religious or Gospel Music
  • 6 "Spanish Christian", 1 Spanish Sports, and 1 Tejano
  • 2 Sports Stations
  • 8 statins that are Adult Contemporary, Classic Country, Classic Hits, Country, Nostalgia, or Oldies

When I flip over to the FM side, I see 5 stations that are "Regional Mexican", 8 "Spanish Christian", 3 "Spanish Hits", and 1 "Tejano". Go figure. There are also 2 Asian stations, 8 religious stations, 3 country stations, 2 sports stations, 1 classical station, and 1 jazz station. From my perspective, over 90% of those stations either do not appeal to me and/or are in a language I do not understand. Then again, I'm not a desired demographic.
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".

dlsterner

Quote from: bandit957 on July 09, 2022, 11:28:20 AM
I always liked 8-tracks.

I was disappointed when my family sold all our 8-tracks without telling me. We had John Denver, Jim Croce, Billy Joel. All gone now.

Certainly to each their own.  Personally I never liked 8 track tapes that much.  One issue is because they had to split up the music into four parts of as near equal length as they could.  Sometimes they had to compromise by:

  • Changing the running order (which I didn't like, especially on a "concept" album where the running order was important)
  • Splitting a song into two halves (self-explanatory)
  • Putting a song on twice.
  • Leaving an unusually long gap at the end of the fourth track.
I will admit to having OCD issues :) which I've gathered is not uncommon on this forum.

Good choice in music on your collection though!

GCrites

I try to use AM radio for what I feel is its main application today -- real-time news, weather and traffic updates -- but when I actually need it during an aggressive storm or when stuck in miles-long traffic jams due to accidents they're always going on about some ballplayer or spewing political rhetoric intended to get people to fellate billionaires. I don't really expect the FM rock station to stop playing Zeppelin and Another One Bites the Dust for one second to disseminate this information and especially not the alternative station to call off the Tame Impala since that isn't their charge.

GeekJedi

I'll jump in here, since this is in my wheelhouse (I'm the VP/Engineering for a radio group). To answer some questions in this thread, in no particular order...

HD Radio isn't dead. In fact, many of those manufacturers who are dropping AM are adding HD, because it supports things like album art. It looks very much like XM, Spotify, Etc.). HD Radio is essentially an IP stream that sends data like audio, pictures, and even traffic data to GPS units.

A little over two years ago, the FCC allowed AM stations to file applications for FM translators to rebroadcast their AM stations. Lots of AM stations took them up on the offer. The catch? If the AM goes away so does the FM, so there's some incentive there to keep the lights on. One interesting phenomenon is that stations with complicated multi-tower directional arrays are reducing their power and eliminating the extra towers to reduce maintenance costs. Another factor is that AM stations are often built on valuable land. More than one large AM station has gone silent because the land the towers sit on is more valuable than the station itself.

AM Stereo was indeed a thing. Unfortunately, it was a solution looking for a problem and it drifted into the sunset. There were plenty of technical limitations that made it impractical for many stations.

AM can be made to sound as good as FM, and it once did. However, in order to reduce congestion in the AM band the FCC adopted an NRSC standard in the late 80's that effectively limited the frequency response of AM to 10khz. Many stations reduce it even lower than that because...

...receiver manufacturers no longer build quality components for the AM side of their tuners. Many times the frequency response of those tuners is less than 8khz!

There was a push in the early days of AM stereo for the "AMAX" standard. It was wonderful! It required broadcasters and receiver manufacturers to work together in order for it to be fully realized. You can imagine how that went.

Radio is still very strong and is listened to by 95% of Americans at least once a week. It's the only tech that is totally free and doesn't buffer when there's a traffic jam on the freeway. Plus people still like that local content.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

ZLoth

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMHD Radio isn't dead. In fact, many of those manufacturers who are dropping AM are adding HD, because it supports things like album art. It looks very much like XM, Spotify, Etc.). HD Radio is essentially an IP stream that sends data like audio, pictures, and even traffic data to GPS units.

That's fine for car units, as I see some aftermarket units that can be installed. How about home HiFi receivers?

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMRadio is still very strong and is listened to by 95% of Americans at least once a week. It's the only tech that is totally free and doesn't buffer when there's a traffic jam on the freeway. Plus people still like that local content.

Are we talking terrestrial radio only, or is satellite-delivered subscription radio also included? What was the sample size of that survey, who sponsored it, and where were the respondents located? I don't question the "local content" part, but again, how many stations are actively creating local content? Remember in October 2017, the FCC eliminated the "main studio" rule for stations.
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".

bandit957

Quote from: ZLoth on July 15, 2022, 09:52:23 PMAre we talking terrestrial radio only, or is satellite-delivered subscription radio also included? What was the sample size of that survey, who sponsored it, and where were the respondents located? I don't question the "local content" part, but again, how many stations are actively creating local content? Remember in October 2017, the FCC eliminated the "main studio" rule for stations.

I thought this rule was long gone by 2017.

City of license is pretty much meaningless now. It has been for probably over 30 years. It's a complete joke now.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

GeekJedi

Quote from: ZLoth on July 15, 2022, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMHD Radio isn't dead. In fact, many of those manufacturers who are dropping AM are adding HD, because it supports things like album art. It looks very much like XM, Spotify, Etc.). HD Radio is essentially an IP stream that sends data like audio, pictures, and even traffic data to GPS units.

That's fine for car units, as I see some aftermarket units that can be installed. How about home HiFi receivers?

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMRadio is still very strong and is listened to by 95% of Americans at least once a week. It's the only tech that is totally free and doesn't buffer when there's a traffic jam on the freeway. Plus people still like that local content.

Are we talking terrestrial radio only, or is satellite-delivered subscription radio also included? What was the sample size of that survey, who sponsored it, and where were the respondents located? I don't question the "local content" part, but again, how many stations are actively creating local content? Remember in October 2017, the FCC eliminated the "main studio" rule for stations.

CCrane, Sangean, and a few others make tuners.

As for the main studio rule, that doesn't mean that a station may be less local, it simply means that the rules for placing the station are gone. For example, I have two stations that are about 50 miles apart. They used to have separate studios, now they have one.

I am talking about terrestrial radio - check some of the infinite dial surveys. Remember, local content can simply mean local news, weather, and promotional announcements. All can be done with syndicated talent.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

GeekJedi

Quote from: bandit957 on July 15, 2022, 09:55:45 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on July 15, 2022, 09:52:23 PMAre we talking terrestrial radio only, or is satellite-delivered subscription radio also included? What was the sample size of that survey, who sponsored it, and where were the respondents located? I don't question the "local content" part, but again, how many stations are actively creating local content? Remember in October 2017, the FCC eliminated the "main studio" rule for stations.

I thought this rule was long gone by 2017.

City of license is pretty much meaningless now. It has been for probably over 30 years. It's a complete joke now.

Nope. You could get waivers, but the rule was still in effect.

I think the rule is a joke as well, in as much as the market will determine if you're serving an area properly or not. Plus with the 80-90 docket, we got a lot of class A stations licensed to small little suburbs outside of metro areas that were never really independent areas to begin with.
"Wisconsin - The Concurrency State!"

ZLoth

Quote from: GeekJedi on July 16, 2022, 01:18:44 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on July 15, 2022, 09:52:23 PM
Quote from: GeekJedi on July 15, 2022, 06:10:25 PMHD Radio isn't dead. In fact, many of those manufacturers who are dropping AM are adding HD, because it supports things like album art. It looks very much like XM, Spotify, Etc.). HD Radio is essentially an IP stream that sends data like audio, pictures, and even traffic data to GPS units.

That's fine for car units, as I see some aftermarket units that can be installed. How about home HiFi receivers?

CCrane, Sangean, and a few others make tuners.

Again, we are talking about HiFi/AV receivers made by Sony, Onkyo, Marantz, Denon, Pioneer, and such. These are receivers that have incorporated Bluetooth, either Ethernet and/or WiFi for streaming music, and some even work with Alexa. Considering that HD radio has been around for around 20 years, either it's too expensive to incorporate, or there are technological challenges. Or, the consumer hasn't been demanding the feature. Tuning in the weather bands should be an essential feature, but again, not there.
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".

Ted$8roadFan

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but some AM stations have (or are transitioning to) the FM dial, esp. if they're part of a conglomerate. For example, Boston's talk radio WRKO, best known on AM 680, can be heard on FM 100.7 (HD) which is the same dial as rock station WZLX. I suspect there will be more of this in the years ahead.

ClassicHasClass

You can get KFI AM 640 here in the LA area on KOST-FM HD-2, and they even seem to be pushing this more than their traditional AM frequency. I think KNX has an FM simulcast as well but I can't remember it off the top of my head.

bandit957

WLW has a translator on 94.5, which blocks out the 94.5 in Lexington that I used to be able to get very clearly.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

PurdueBill

Quote from: ClassicHasClass on July 18, 2022, 09:05:05 PM
You can get KFI AM 640 here in the LA area on KOST-FM HD-2, and they even seem to be pushing this more than their traditional AM frequency. I think KNX has an FM simulcast as well but I can't remember it off the top of my head.

Similar with WBBM which I can pull in with ease at night in NE Ohio; they mention the FM simulcast frequency more than they do their original AM, it seems.  Maybe it just seems that way, but I tried counting and they plugged the FM one much more.  Not that I could pull that one here.



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