North Houston Highway Improvement Project (project resumed March 2023)

[silverback1065]

I don't know much about this place but ya I would just abandon this project and move to upgrade other stuff.

[The Ghostbuster]

Maybe instead of expanding the right-of-way of Interstate 45 to add additional lanes, they could put the new lanes on an elevated deck above the existing lanes. It might not look pretty, but it would help prevent dislocations and keep the existing freeway at its existing width.

[silverback1065]

Maybe instead of expanding the right-of-way of Interstate 45 to add additional lanes, they could put the new lanes on an elevated deck above the existing lanes. It might not look pretty, but it would help prevent dislocations and keep the existing freeway at its existing width.

Austin hates this idea and I bet Houston would too.

[bwana39]

My thoughts on the part north of I-610 is just to extend Hardy Toll Road to I-10 (downtown). This thing is underutilized virtually all of time except for rush hour and especially in the morning toward its end at I-610.

[kernals12]

Maybe instead of expanding the right-of-way of Interstate 45 to add additional lanes, they could put the new lanes on an elevated deck above the existing lanes. It might not look pretty, but it would help prevent dislocations and keep the existing freeway at its existing width.

Austin hates this idea and I bet Houston would too.

It would also be very, very expensive.

[Bobby5280]

Just leave I-45 as is -including the old Pierce Elevated. Leave it be. It will cost plenty of money to remove. And if I-45 can't be properly re-routed around the East side of downtown Houston then the existing, arguably disruptive, elevated I-45 section just needs to remain in place.

^^^ the problem with your proposal is it makes tens of not hundreds of thousands of people suffer due to the will of the few.

Um, if the loudest voices in the urban centers leveraging outrage culture say they don't want a multi-billion dollar highway project built there...then, hey, wish granted! Move the money elsewhere in the state where it's easier to build/improve highways. There is a huge list of projects in need outside city centers. Too bad for all the other urban people suffering who didn't bother to stand up for themselves and let the insanity take over.

But now the new urbanists are trying to bring all the congestion and crowding of downtown to the suburbs. They want to turn Tysons Corner, VA into a 2nd Arlington

I lived in Northern Virginia back in the 1980's. Tysons Corner was really built up even back then. That zone is about as busy as any area along the Capital Beltway. I shudder to think what New Urbanists might be trying to foist on roads there. None of the main arterials would be good candidates to undergo a so-called road diet.

[rte66man]

My thoughts on the part north of I-610 is just to extend Hardy Toll Road to I-10 (downtown). This thing is underutilized virtually all of time except for rush hour and especially in the morning toward its end at I-610.

The city is trying desperately to permanently kill the southern Hardy extension. Makes no sense to me.

[Plutonic Panda]

Just leave I-45 as is -including the old Pierce Elevated. Leave it be. It will cost plenty of money to remove. And if I-45 can't be properly re-routed around the East side of downtown Houston then the existing, arguably disruptive, elevated I-45 section just needs to remain in place.

^^^ the problem with your proposal is it makes tens of not hundreds of thousands of people suffer due to the will of the few.

Um, if the loudest voices in the urban centers leveraging outrage culture say they don't want a multi-billion dollar highway project built there...then, hey, wish granted! Move the money elsewhere in the state where it's easier to build/improve highways. There is a huge list of projects in need outside city centers. Too bad for all the other urban people suffering who didn't bother to stand up for themselves and let the insanity take over.

But now the new urbanists are trying to bring all the congestion and crowding of downtown to the suburbs. They want to turn Tysons Corner, VA into a 2nd Arlington

I lived in Northern Virginia back in the 1980's. Tysons Corner was really built up even back then. That zone is about as busy as any area along the Capital Beltway. I shudder to think what New Urbanists might be trying to foist on roads there. None of the main arterials would be good candidates to undergo a so-called road diet.

That's the issue. We shouldn't be pandering to the loudest voices.

[Perfxion]

Its laughable some think it's just the left that are freeway killers. Super 7 in Connecticut would like a word with you. And you can't ignore past actions and think it would not be brought up as opposition to current projects. There will be push back then it might happen and those who pushed back move on. There will be those who don't want some communities lost forever then not being able to afford to live in the cities they grew up on. All of this is SOP on any major project.

I think this project will be done but I think the state and the city will have to make sure the areas east of downtown aren't too gentrified to the point all future projects go SF route of hell no.

[bwana39]

My thoughts on the part north of I-610 is just to extend Hardy Toll Road to I-10 (downtown). This thing is underutilized virtually all of time except for rush hour and especially in the morning toward its end at I-610.

The city is trying desperately to permanently kill the southern Hardy extension. Makes no sense to me.

I am not sure but it might be toll road bias. The idea that the rich and privileged will use a toll road, but the poor will be excluded.... It might be the city versus the Harris County (HCTRA is a component of the county government.)  It Might be because the property to be used for it is mostly low density light industrial.  It might work better if it were tied into I-69 near Evella Street (in the realm of displacing homes.). 

[Bobby5280]

That's the issue. We shouldn't be pandering to the loudest voices.

Yeah, we shouldn't. But it's going to take years or even decades to put that genie back in the bottle.

At the risk of sounding political various media personalities and then 24 hour "news" channels began raking in lots of advertising revenue by broadcasting fear and outrage as primary content. Soon after the growth of the Internet spawned web sites and social media platforms doing the same thing. Now we have elected "lawmakers" who don't have any interest in actually doing the work of governing. They're polishing their brand as people intent on "blowing up the system" when they're really nothing more than whores trying to make as many appearances as possible on TV, partly as a ploy to sell books, land a TV talk show contract or some other money making plan. Before anyone gets their panties in a twist thinking I'm attacking their cherished political party, I'm not. This problem has infected much of governing on the state and federal level. It's only when you get down to local, smaller city/town politics that things start becoming more sane again. There's not as much media exposure and opportunity to sell advertising there.

Houston is a big enough city where outrage culture and media stunts can be leveraged to block an important highway improvement project that would actually be beneficial to Houston. One would think the New Urbanist types would have been on board since the project involved demolishing the Pierce Elevated and "connecting" downtown Houston with the Midtown area. But once the whole deal turned into a racial issue the outrage culture thing took over.

While TV, Internet sites and politicians as media whores deserve plenty of criticism so does the cattle that make up much of the general public. It's pretty much all our fault these outlets and lawmakers are successful using these ploys. We're participating in that dance. We're the ones tuning into it, eating up the bull$#!+ (and seeing the advertising). We're the ones voting for the biggest loud mouths rather than sane grown ups. We're not interested in details, nuance, much less anything involving compromise. Our side must win at all costs. That's where we are now.

Until the general public pulls its collective head out of its own ass things are just going to get worse. Any major new public works project will turn into a hot potato of outrage. The United States is becoming ever more pathetic in its ability to build major infrastructure projects or any big things at all. Meanwhile we have competition that is able to get the job done in terms of new highways, high speed rail, artificial islands, etc.

[kernals12]

My thoughts on the part north of I-610 is just to extend Hardy Toll Road to I-10 (downtown). This thing is underutilized virtually all of time except for rush hour and especially in the morning toward its end at I-610.

The city is trying desperately to permanently kill the southern Hardy extension. Makes no sense to me.

I am not sure but it might be toll road bias. The idea that the rich and privileged will use a toll road, but the poor will be excluded.... It might be the city versus the Harris County (HCTRA is a component of the county government.)  It Might be because the property to be used for it is mostly low density light industrial.  It might work better if it were tied into I-69 near Evella Street (in the realm of displacing homes.).

Won't the 4 extra lanes on i-45 be tolled?

[kernals12]

I lived in Northern Virginia back in the 1980's. Tysons Corner was really built up even back then. That zone is about as busy as any area along the Capital Beltway. I shudder to think what New Urbanists might be trying to foist on roads there. None of the main arterials would be good candidates to undergo a so-called road diet.

Hopefully once the Battlefield Parkway interchange is finished, the yuppies who are eying those luxury high rises will decide to instead live on 3 acres in Western Loudoun County

[bwana39]

]
Won't the 4 extra lanes on i-45 be tolled?

Probably.  You see how that is going as well. 

My real thought is the developers see the obvious choice for a route for the Hardy extension being light industrial  that the developers can buy at a relatively low cost (they may already own some of them and renting them out), redevelop and make a killing. 
If I am a developer, I see low use density land inside 610. I think, huh? What makes me money? Redevelopment or a freeway?

Ever notice that the public policy the far right HATES comes to benefit some among their own ranks.   

[kernals12]

]
Won't the 4 extra lanes on i-45 be tolled?

Probably.  You see how that is going as well. 

My real thought is the developers see the obvious choice for a route for the Hardy extension being light industrial  that the developers can buy at a relatively low cost (they may already own some of them and renting them out), redevelop and make a killing. 
If I am a developer, I see low use density land inside 610. I think, huh? What makes me money? Redevelopment or a freeway?

Ever notice that the public policy the far right HATES comes to benefit some among their own ranks.

Nothing increases land value like a freeway. When developer Frank Sharp built his Sharpstown subdivision in the 50s, he left a little strip of land that he gave to the Texas DOT for free to build US 59, because he knew that freeway access would make the rest of his land way more valuable.

So if developers wanted to build something there, they'd find they'd be better off if they leave a little for the Hardy extension

[bwana39]

]
Won't the 4 extra lanes on i-45 be tolled?

Probably.  You see how that is going as well. 

My real thought is the developers see the obvious choice for a route for the Hardy extension being light industrial  that the developers can buy at a relatively low cost (they may already own some of them and renting them out), redevelop and make a killing. 
If I am a developer, I see low use density land inside 610. I think, huh? What makes me money? Redevelopment or a freeway?

Ever notice that the public policy the far right HATES comes to benefit some among their own ranks.

Nothing increases land value like a freeway. When developer Frank Sharp built his Sharpstown subdivision in the 50s, he left a little strip of land that he gave to the Texas DOT for free to build US 59, because he knew that freeway access would make the rest of his land way more valuable.

So if developers wanted to build something there, they'd find they'd be better off if they leave a little for the Hardy extension

As a general rule, I agree with you, but the corridor for Hardy inside of 610 is within a couple of miles of the existing freeways. There is no added value to the surroundings from an additional freeway. The owners would get current market value for the land as it is if the HTR were extended. They could redevelop it and make far more money.  Add insult to injury, there would probably be one or perhaps ZERO exits between I-610 and either I-69 or I-45. Exits from the freeway add value....

[The Ghostbuster]

What is holding up the HTR extension? Money? Overwhelming opposition? The fact that Interstate 45 is just to the west and Interstate 69 is just to the east?

[bwana39]

Interstate 610 is one of the tightest complete inner belts in the nation.  If it had been built out to 6-8 lanes each direction and none of the feeder freeways had gone completely through the city center, (every one of them did) the idea the urbanists seem to espouse might have worked.

I-610 was built with three lanes in each direction. I-45 skirted downtown. I-10 skirted downtown . US-59 (now I-69) skirted downtown. SH-288 is the only freeway that doesn't extend through downtown.  Traffic patterns are established. Businesses, services, and industry grew up based on the freeways being like they are.

Uptown in Dallas proves that a freeway is not what stops downtown from expanding. Once you start building across the freeway, it becomes as much a part of of the city center as the part on the opposite side. Getting rid of  a freeway that does not block a natural scene (think the Embarcadero Freeway or the Alaskan Way both were by the bay,) doesn't achieve anything especially when there is adequate crossings from one side to the other (note the Pierce Elevated allows every street to cross) I-345 allows most of the streets to cross.  The only thing that changes is that there is suddenly a large portion of land to build buildings in adjacent to the now narrower roadway(s). Someone benefits from this. Probably those who have an inside track to buy them when they are sold off. (Generally much later at the buyer's request).

[TXtoNJ]

]
Won't the 4 extra lanes on i-45 be tolled?

Probably.  You see how that is going as well. 

My real thought is the developers see the obvious choice for a route for the Hardy extension being light industrial  that the developers can buy at a relatively low cost (they may already own some of them and renting them out), redevelop and make a killing. 
If I am a developer, I see low use density land inside 610. I think, huh? What makes me money? Redevelopment or a freeway?

Ever notice that the public policy the far right HATES comes to benefit some among their own ranks.   

Yes that's the big difference. Thirty years ago, nobody thought Northside Village would be anything but slum forever. Then the Heights gentrified over the past 15 years, and now those run-down shacks are cute Craftsman bungalows just waiting to be restored, or shotgun shacks waiting for a teardown and replacement with McMansions.

[MaxConcrete]

What is holding up the HTR extension? Money? Overwhelming opposition? The fact that Interstate 45 is just to the west and Interstate 69 is just to the east?

Harris County Commissioners Court (which controls the Harris County Toll Road Authority) is now against the Hardy Toll Road downtown extension. That's because the court has a 3-2 democrat majority as of the 2018 election. The County Judge Lina Hidalgo won with a very slim margin, mainly due to anti-Trump vote and also due to straight ticket party voting (which was still allowed in 2018, but that was the last election it was allowed). 30-year-old Hidalgo can be described as an AOC clone, but with less charisma and is less publicity-seeking. Generally speaking, she is anti-car and anti-road. She has already tried to transfer toll revenue to non-transportation use, but I think she was forced to drop that effort due to legal issues.

Hidalgo is also responsible for the anti-NHHIP lawsuit.

For the Hardy Toll Road extension, the last info I'm aware of is that HCTRA is initiating a study to further study how the project can be redesigned to better serve the community. So, basically it's a formal process to cancel the extension. I don't know why the formality is needed. Maybe because agreements are in place with other agencies. For example TxDOT rebuilt the Elysian viaduct (which is about to be completed) which is designed to be connected to the toll road extension.

So the short answer is that that the HTR extension is almost certainly dead, but there is a formal process in progress. If republicans could defeat Hidalgo in 2022, that could bring it back to life, but most likely the court will be permanently democrat-controlled going forward.

[kernals12]

What is holding up the HTR extension? Money? Overwhelming opposition? The fact that Interstate 45 is just to the west and Interstate 69 is just to the east?

Harris County Commissioners Court (which controls the Harris County Toll Road Authority) is now against the Hardy Toll Road downtown extension. That's because the court has a 3-2 democrat majority as of the 2018 election. The County Judge Lina Hidalgo won with a very slim margin, mainly due to anti-Trump vote and also due to straight ticket party voting (which was still allowed in 2018, but that was the last election it was allowed). 30-year-old Hidalgo can be described as an AOC clone, but with less charisma and is less publicity-seeking. Generally speaking, she is anti-car and anti-road. She has already tried to transfer toll revenue to non-transportation use, but I think she was forced to drop that effort due to legal issues.

Hidalgo is also responsible for the anti-NHHIP lawsuit.

For the Hardy Toll Road extension, the last info I'm aware of is that HCTRA is initiating a study to further study how the project can be redesigned to better serve the community. So, basically it's a formal process to cancel the extension. I don't know why the formality is needed. Maybe because agreements are in place with other agencies. For example TxDOT rebuilt the Elysian viaduct (which is about to be completed) which is designed to be connected to the toll road extension.

So the short answer is that that the HTR extension is almost certainly dead, but there is a formal process in progress. If republicans could defeat Hidalgo in 2022, that could bring it back to life, but most likely the court will be permanently democrat-controlled going forward.

Maybe the legislature could intervene.

[bwana39]

Maybe the legislature could intervene.

All they would have to do is make the HCTRA a fully independent agency (Like NTTA is) .

I may sound like a giant cheerleader for NTTA, I really am not,  but from a perspective of building toll roads (where they are well utilized) they get the job done and they generally in the current times pat their bills.

[bluecountry]

The only logical and fair thing to do is this:

-Eliminate Pierce freeway
-Bury I45, cover it with green space, parks, mixed used affordable housing
-ONLY improve the highway so it has full breakdown lanes, safe merges, and dedicated transit/HOV-3 or HOT 24/7 lanes in each direction (still have at least 2 free lanes).

The central core of a city is for LOCAL business only, NOT THROUGH traffic.
If you don't have business inside 610, stay on 610 then to 10 east to Baytown or 45 south to Galveston or 10 west to San Antonio or 45 north to Dallas.

[sprjus4]

The only logical and fair thing to do is this:

-Eliminate Pierce freeway
-Bury I45, cover it with green space, parks, mixed used affordable housing
-ONLY improve the highway so it has full breakdown lanes, safe merges, and dedicated transit/HOV-3 or HOT 24/7 lanes in each direction (still have at least 2 free lanes).

The central core of a city is for LOCAL business only, NOT THROUGH traffic.
If you don't have business inside 610, stay on 610 then to 10 east to Baytown or 45 south to Galveston or 10 west to San Antonio or 45 north to Dallas.

The problem is that it's usually much quicker, especially outside peak hours, to go through. I usually am going I-10 West to I-69 South, and have always gone through Downtown.

I-610 isn't really an effective "bypass" .

[Bobby5280]

-Bury I45, cover it with green space, parks, mixed used affordable housing

Reminder: Houston is a FLOOD PRONE CITY. Digging a new freeway into a trench and capping it with deck parks and "affordable housing" might sound like a good idea on paper. But it's not all that do-able in Houston's case.

The central core of a city is for LOCAL business only, NOT THROUGH traffic.

Over 2 million people live in the "core" of the Houston metro area. Most of them get around in automobiles. Houston is not New York City. And even in NYC people are cabbing-it if they have the money to do so.