There's one in Ahoskie.
Have a route number for the Ahoskie example one that I should look at for 2 lane freeways.
I knew I-93 in New Hampshire that has a 2 lane section.
Surprisingly, I found a list of them on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-lane_expressway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-lane_expressway). Note that in this article, expressways and freeways are grouped together.
US 6 in Cape Cod is another one. And part of MA 2.
CA 120 in Sonora and CA 255 over the Samoa Bridge.
Did we stop calling them Super 2s? At any rate, they're not uncommon. Kansas has a handful of them. US 75 is a Super 2 from north of I-35 to K-31. Then there's K-10 south of I-70 and east to US 59, which is technically only a Super 2 Expressway because of the one remaining at-grade intersection, and it carries a significant amount of suburban commuter traffic, rather than being predominately rural like probably most Super 2s. And then Oklahoma has a tolled Super 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickasaw_Turnpike .
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 01:02:11 PM
Surprisingly, I found a list of them on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-lane_expressway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-lane_expressway). Note that in this article, expressways and freeways are grouped together.
I'm surprised they don't delete that given its excessive devotion to minutia in trying to list every such road whenever possible.
Given the existence of that list, though, adding to this thread seems rather pointless.
There's a part of New York's Bear Mountain State Parkway that could be considered a two-lane freeway.
Chris Bessert's Wisconsin Highways website calls US-51 between US-8 and CTH-L a "Super 2" freeway because it has no at-grade intersections. But there's only one cross road, CTH-N, and there's an overpass there because CTH-N is in a valley. To me, in order to qualify as a Super 2, a road needs to have no at-grade anything and multiple interchanges over a stretch of at least five miles. US-51 does not fit that criteria.
I don't think any of Kentucky's can count anymore. All of the Mountain Parkway is being widened to four lanes. And a number of at-grade intersections have been built along the Hal Rogers Parkway.
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 13, 2021, 01:52:07 PM
Did we stop calling them Super 2s?
People get so WELL AHKSHULLY about the term "Super 2" that I think a lot of people don't use it to avoid the pointless argument.
Ugh...we're going through this again...
I always thought that super twos and 2-lane freeways were the same thing.
As was noted in the same thread several years ago, some states consider "Super 2s" to include at-grade intersections. So in some regions, no they are not the same thing...just like freeways and expressways are not the same thing in some regions.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 04:45:18 PM
I always thought that super twos and 2-lane freeways were the same thing.
They are.
Wow, we made it this far with no one linking to the previous threads? Here's a couple:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5250.0
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4179.0
And as for the "what is a super-2" discussion:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19403.25
Quote from: froggie on April 13, 2021, 04:47:34 PM
just like freeways and expressways are not the same thing in some regions.
Isn't the difference between the two a federal definition, with the areas that consider them to be the same thing just using the term incorrectly?
Quote from: tolbs17 on April 13, 2021, 12:32:27 PM
There's one in Ahoskie.
A super-2 in the sense of a high-quality 2 lane road, but there's still at grade intersections. It's not built to freeway standards.
A number of areas along NC-11 are built to super-2 standards, in sense of being improved from the original roadway.
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2021, 09:23:53 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on April 13, 2021, 12:32:27 PM
There's one in Ahoskie.
A super-2 in the sense of a high-quality 2 lane road, but there's still at grade intersections. It's not built to freeway standards.
A number of areas along NC-11 are built to super-2 standards, in sense of being improved from the original roadway.
Wasn't the one in Edenton the same way? It's also called a 2-lane expressway.
Quote from: webny99 on April 13, 2021, 09:14:31 PM
Wow, we made it this far with no one linking to the previous threads? Here's a couple:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5250.0
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4179.0
And as for the "what is a super-2" discussion:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19403.25
the first thread you linked shows ethanman62187 as the OP (which is banned right now so it would be pointless to bump that thread). If you try bumping it, it will automatically get locked.
the second is an old thread with inactive folks,
and the third one "what is a super-2" can be merged possibly?
Quote from: tolbs17 on April 13, 2021, 09:44:10 PM
Wasn't the one in Edenton the same way?
Yes, before it was widened in the 90s to 4 lanes and brought up to fully controlled access with the construction of various interchanges and overpasses to replace remaining at-grade intersections.
This is the plan for the Ahoskie bypass as well, but is many years off.
Quote from: tolbs17 on April 13, 2021, 09:44:10 PM
If you try bumping it, it will automatically get locked.
The forum has an option enabled to instantly lock any bumped thread started by a banned user? Why doesn't it just prevent you from posting to begin with?
Quote from: sprjus4 on April 13, 2021, 09:47:26 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on April 13, 2021, 09:44:10 PM
Wasn't the one in Edenton the same way?
Yes, before it was widened in the 90s to 4 lanes and brought up to fully controlled access with the construction of various interchanges and overpasses to replace remaining at-grade intersections.
This is the plan for the Ahoskie bypass as well, but is many years off.
For those that are heading to Virginia Beach that way, it will most likely be Greenville traffic.
Quote from: 1 on April 13, 2021, 09:51:25 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on April 13, 2021, 09:44:10 PM
If you try bumping it, it will automatically get locked.
The forum has an option enabled to instantly lock any bumped thread started by a banned user? Why doesn't it just prevent you from posting to begin with?
the mod or admin will do it. Haha. See what happened to this (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21833.25) thread.
Both threads are from 2011, and probably either would get locked from bumping today because they're from "3 presidential terms ago".
Quote from: tolbs17 on April 13, 2021, 08:03:06 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 13, 2021, 04:45:18 PM
I always thought that super twos and 2-lane freeways were the same thing.
They are.
They're not, as I noted in the response before you and you ignored. 2-lane freeways are a type of "Super 2", but there are a number of different definitions of just what a "Super 2" is, as noted in this TRB report (https://onlinepubs.trb.org/onlinepubs/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_500v4.pdf) (page V-11). As a general rule, Super 2s are commonly designed with wider shoulders, higher design speeds, and fewer access points, but some states allow at-grade intersections while others don't.
Quote from: vdeane on April 13, 2021, 09:20:55 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 13, 2021, 04:47:34 PM
just like freeways and expressways are not the same thing in some regions.
Isn't the difference between the two a federal definition, with the areas that consider them to be the same thing just using the term incorrectly?
In point of reference, FHWA does indeed define them...an example being the HPMS Manual (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hpmsmanl/chapt2.cfm).
As for the past few comments about thread merging/locking, why not just leave that to the mods instead of speculating?
Macomb bypass is a 2 lane freeway connecting 2 4 lane exoressways.
Illinois defines its super 2s as shoulders curves turn lanes and passing lanes every 5 miles. Iowa seems to be using the same . Sadly while both have some good 2 lanes they don't really have their definition.
The Wikipedia reference was missing a notable one in Virginia: US-460 was constructed as a two-lane freeway bypass around Farmville in the early 1980s. IIRC, the section west of US-15 remained as a two-lane freeway until the mid-1990s or so. Although there were only a handful of exits constructed on this stretch of US-460, plus only two overpasses, it truly had the feel of a freeway.
Quote from: froggie on April 13, 2021, 04:47:34 PM
As was noted in the same thread several years ago, some states consider "Super 2s" to include at-grade intersections. So in some regions, no they are not the same thing...just like freeways and expressways are not the same thing in some regions.
Are there any states that actually have a definition of "Super 2" with full access control as part of the definition? I wasn't aware of any.
Quote from: froggie on April 13, 2021, 10:24:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on April 13, 2021, 09:20:55 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 13, 2021, 04:47:34 PM
just like freeways and expressways are not the same thing in some regions.
Isn't the difference between the two a federal definition, with the areas that consider them to be the same thing just using the term incorrectly?
In point of reference, FHWA does indeed define them...an example being the HPMS Manual (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hpmsmanl/chapt2.cfm).
By that field manual's definitions, then, Super 2 highways are neither expressway nor freeway facilities, as they do not provide 'two or more lanes for the exclusive use of through traffic in each direction'.
US-264 in Middlesex, Bailey, and Sims was between 1972 and 1978. After that, it became a 4 lane freeway.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 13, 2021, 10:43:57 PM
The Wikipedia reference was missing a notable one in Virginia: US-460 was constructed as a two-lane freeway bypass around Farmville in the early 1980s. IIRC, the section west of US-15 remained as a two-lane freeway until the mid-1990s or so. Although there were only a handful of exits constructed on this stretch of US-460, plus only two overpasses, it truly had the feel of a freeway.
The Virginia list has errors
US 301 where is parallels I-95 is a frontage road and simply the former southbound alignment from when it was 4-laned in the 1950s.
US 17 Fredericksburg is definitely not one (multiple stop lights plus other at-grade intersections. Zero interchanges over its 6 miles).
Quote from: Mapmikey on April 14, 2021, 11:54:11 AM
US 17 Fredericksburg is definitely not one (multiple stop lights plus other at-grade intersections. Zero interchanges over its 6 miles).
Gosh, I can't believe that stretch of US-17 has never been four-laned. I remember driving it when it first opened, and although it felt like a Super 2 there were only three or four intersections in the "straight" section headed east. Massaponax Church Road and Sandy Lane [Drive] are the two I remember, and then you hit a bunch of farm entrances along the way. Seems like enough traffic to warrant four lane all the way from Port Royal. If for no other reason, this should be the main truck route to Dahlgren from the I-95 corridor.
My first exposure to the term "super-2" was as a full limited-access freeway that is two lanes (or three lanes where truck lanes/passing lanes were involved) and that at-grades were inconsistent with the notion that it's a true "super-2."
If we are expanding the definition of "super-2" to mean any improved surface route with wide shoulders, gentle grades, sweeping curves, etc., then most of Kentucky's rebuilt routes would qualify, such as KY 30 between London and US 421 (currently under construction to continue on to another improved portion in Owsley County).
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 14, 2021, 12:40:57 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on April 14, 2021, 11:54:11 AM
US 17 Fredericksburg is definitely not one (multiple stop lights plus other at-grade intersections. Zero interchanges over its 6 miles).
Gosh, I can't believe that stretch of US-17 has never been four-laned. I remember driving it when it first opened, and although it felt like a Super 2 there were only three or four intersections in the "straight" section headed east. Massaponax Church Road and Sandy Lane [Drive] are the two I remember, and then you hit a bunch of farm entrances along the way. Seems like enough traffic to warrant four lane all the way from Port Royal. If for no other reason, this should be the main truck route to Dahlgren from the I-95 corridor.
Most of VA 3 between I-95 and US 301 is 4-lane instead of US 17.
Quote from: Mapmikey on April 14, 2021, 11:54:11 AM
US 17 Fredericksburg is definitely not one (multiple stop lights plus other at-grade intersections. Zero interchanges over its 6 miles).
Quote from: Dirt Roads on April 14, 2021, 12:40:57 PM
Gosh, I can't believe that stretch of US-17 has never been four-laned. I remember driving it when it first opened, and although it felt like a Super 2 there were only three or four intersections in the "straight" section headed east. Massaponax Church Road and Sandy Lane [Drive] are the two I remember, and then you hit a bunch of farm entrances along the way. Seems like enough traffic to warrant four lane all the way from Port Royal. If for no other reason, this should be the main truck route to Dahlgren from the I-95 corridor.
Quote from: plain on April 14, 2021, 02:19:33 PM
Most of VA 3 between I-95 and US 301 is 4-lane instead of US 17.
Indeed, but US-17 would be somewhat faster if it were four-laned. I used to go swimming and fishing at Colonial Beach, so I used to know the area well (it's been a while, though). Anyhow, it looks like VA-218 (Caledon Road to Dahlgren Road) is now faster than VA-3, which means that there's plenty of congestion on VA-3. VA-218 was a nice ride, but I found the two-lane pretty slow when getting behind a truck or school bus. I've done VA-3 all the way to US-301 before, I preferred to cutoff on VA-208 (the lower part of Dalgren Road) and just deal with the trucks on the VA-218 part of Dalgren Road. Cool Spring Road was a good crossover from I-95 and US-17 Business (VA-218) to VA-3, but that whole area was pretty congested even back 20 years ago or so.
Quote from: Mapmikey on April 14, 2021, 11:54:11 AM
US 17 Fredericksburg is definitely not one (multiple stop lights plus other at-grade intersections. Zero interchanges over its 6 miles).
I have been on this stretch of 17 minimally (one time I took 17 from Warrenton all the way to Tappahannock) and it does not feel like one to me.
Quote from: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 02:11:57 PM
Chris Bessert's Wisconsin Highways website calls US-51 between US-8 and CTH-L a "Super 2" freeway because it has no at-grade intersections. But there's only one cross road, CTH-N, and there's an overpass there because CTH-N is in a valley. To me, in order to qualify as a Super 2, a road needs to have no at-grade anything and multiple interchanges over a stretch of at least five miles. US-51 does not fit that criteria.
1) There is no at-grade anything. 2) There is no requirement that a Super 2 have multiple interchanges; that's your criterion. 3) There are three viaducts to avoid conflicts - CTH N, the railroad just south of CTH N, and a state trail. It may not be much of a Super 2, but it qualifies.
Quote from: skluth on April 15, 2021, 02:41:52 PM
Quote from: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 02:11:57 PM
Chris Bessert's Wisconsin Highways website calls US-51 between US-8 and CTH-L a "Super 2" freeway because it has no at-grade intersections. But there's only one cross road, CTH-N, and there's an overpass there because CTH-N is in a valley. To me, in order to qualify as a Super 2, a road needs to have no at-grade anything and multiple interchanges over a stretch of at least five miles. US-51 does not fit that criteria.
1) There is no at-grade anything. 2) There is no requirement that a Super 2 have multiple interchanges; that's your criterion. 3) There are three viaducts to avoid conflicts - CTH N, the railroad just south of CTH N, and a state trail. It may not be much of a Super 2, but it qualifies.
Would M-231 count? No interchanges, but it has only one at-grade intersection between its termini, multiple overpasses, and a 65 mph speed limit (the only two-lane road south of Lake County to have such a limit).
Quote from: ftballfan on April 15, 2021, 07:22:04 PM
Quote from: skluth on April 15, 2021, 02:41:52 PM
Quote from: thspfc on April 13, 2021, 02:11:57 PM
Chris Bessert's Wisconsin Highways website calls US-51 between US-8 and CTH-L a "Super 2" freeway because it has no at-grade intersections. But there's only one cross road, CTH-N, and there's an overpass there because CTH-N is in a valley. To me, in order to qualify as a Super 2, a road needs to have no at-grade anything and multiple interchanges over a stretch of at least five miles. US-51 does not fit that criteria.
1) There is no at-grade anything. 2) There is no requirement that a Super 2 have multiple interchanges; that's your criterion. 3) There are three viaducts to avoid conflicts - CTH N, the railroad just south of CTH N, and a state trail. It may not be much of a Super 2, but it qualifies.
Would M-231 count? No interchanges, but it has only one at-grade intersection between its termini, multiple overpasses, and a 65 mph speed limit (the only two-lane road south of Lake County to have such a limit).
No. It has an intersection with Lincoln Avenue.
I-40 north of Statesville was a two-lane freeway until the 60s.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on April 13, 2021, 01:52:07 PM
Did we stop calling them Super 2s? At any rate, they're not uncommon. Kansas has a handful of them. US 75 is a Super 2 from north of I-35 to K-31. Then there's K-10 south of I-70 and east to US 59, which is technically only a Super 2 Expressway because of the one remaining at-grade intersection, and it carries a significant amount of suburban commuter traffic, rather than being predominately rural like probably most Super 2s. And then Oklahoma has a tolled Super 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickasaw_Turnpike .
And US 36 in northeast Kansas. I think Gousha used to note these on paper maps as "freeway" without the center line in the graphic they used to draw freeways. (On the map, these sections tended to stand out because without the line running down the center, the road line tended to be perceived by the eye as wider.)