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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: tolbs17 on December 22, 2021, 12:28:31 AM

Title: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: tolbs17 on December 22, 2021, 12:28:31 AM
Tennessee had a 75 mph speed limit before!

https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-attud/maps/index2.html
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: tolbs17 on December 22, 2021, 10:22:22 AM
The image shows the maximum speed limits back in 1993.

Source - https://www.pistonudos.com/en/raising-us-speed-limits-cost-33000-lives-in-20-years

(https://www.pistonudos.com/images/posts/d4ef2e7b682a402f7e7881c307bd6cee-0.jpg)



Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: 1995hoo on December 22, 2021, 10:30:14 AM
Tennessee had a 75 mph speed limit before!

https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-attud/maps/index2.html

Reasonable Drivers Unanimous. That website is ancient. I don't believe Kevin Atkinson has updated it since the 1990s. It was a decent website back then despite his constant spelling errors, but it became outdated a very long time ago.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: tolbs17 on December 22, 2021, 10:34:57 AM
Tennessee had a 75 mph speed limit before!

https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-attud/maps/index2.html

Reasonable Drivers Unanimous. That website is ancient. I don't believe Kevin Atkinson has updated it since the 1990s. It was a decent website back then despite his constant spelling errors, but it became outdated a very long time ago.
Yeah, unless he just forgot to update it! Or gave up.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 22, 2021, 11:17:57 AM
Tennessee had a 75 mph speed limit before!

https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-attud/maps/index2.html

Reasonable Drivers Unanimous. That website is ancient. I don't believe Kevin Atkinson has updated it since the 1990s. It was a decent website back then despite his constant spelling errors, but it became outdated a very long time ago.

Shame he never got NJ right though. He confused NJ's statutory limits for unposted roadways as being maximum limits. NJ did, and still does, have 55 mph 2 lane roads, for example.  And while the NJ Tpk had a 60 mph limit prior to the NMSL, he proclaimed that as being the max limit in the state. However, the AC Expressway had a 70 mph limit.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: tolbs17 on January 22, 2022, 11:02:40 AM
Prior to 1995, not a single highway had 70 or 75 mph on it. But Nevada did post a 70 mph speed limit on I-80 I think during the NMSL....

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hiq/hiqapr02.htm
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: 1995hoo on January 23, 2022, 08:05:57 AM
Prior to 1995, not a single highway had 70 or 75 mph on it. But Nevada did post a 70 mph speed limit on I-80 I think during the NMSL....

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hiq/hiqapr02.htm

Nevada never actually posted that. It was during the era when 55 was the absolute maximum. In the mid-1980s, Nevada passed a law that would raise the speed limit to 70 on I-80, but the statute contained a provision saying that the law would automatically be repealed if the US government cut off the state's highway funding. As soon as the statute took effect, the US government did just that, and by its terms the statute immediately expired, so the feds then restores the highway funding. No 70-mph signs were actually posted. That law is generally credited as part of the impetus that convinced Congress to amend the national speed limit law to allow 65-mph limits on rural Interstates starting in 1986 or 1987.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: tolbs17 on January 23, 2022, 08:10:29 AM
Prior to 1995, not a single highway had 70 or 75 mph on it. But Nevada did post a 70 mph speed limit on I-80 I think during the NMSL....

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hiq/hiqapr02.htm
That law is generally credited as part of the impetus that convinced Congress to amend the national speed limit law to allow 65-mph limits on rural Interstates starting in 1986 or 1987.
Just rural interstates? Not highways like US-264 from Zebulon to Wilson, US-70 from Dover to New Bern, The Reidsville Bypass, US-64 from Wendell to Rocky Mount and so on? And US-64 East of Rocky Mount to Tarboro and just such...

They were freeways, although not built to interstate standards...

The Mid-Atlantic didn't bother doing anything until the other states raised it or when it was totally repealed. But that's just my guess.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: 1995hoo on January 23, 2022, 08:31:17 AM
^^^^^

Just rural Interstates. Some non-Interstates were designated as Interstates around that time specifically to allow them to be posted as 65 mph. Others were not. When I started law school at Duke in 1995, the entirety of the Durham Freeway (NC-147) was posted at 55 mph because thatís the highest that was allowed under federal law. The national speed limit was repealed effective that December, but it was the following summer before North Carolina made any changes (including posting 65 on the part of that road southeast of downtown) even though state law already allowed 70-mph speed limits on Interstates.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: sprjus4 on January 23, 2022, 08:44:14 AM
^ I thought at some point in the 1980s, the federal government permitted certain rural freeways that met interstate standards to be posted at 65 mph. Perhaps none of the above examples, but others elsewhere.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: 1995hoo on January 23, 2022, 08:57:45 AM
^ I thought at some point in the 1980s, the federal government permitted certain rural freeways that met interstate standards to be posted at 65 mph. Perhaps none of the above examples, but others elsewhere.

Wikipedia says a separate bill later allowed "certain non-Interstate rural highways" to have 65-mph limits. I donít know what highways that covered or where they were located. I do know I never saw any non-Interstate posted at 65 prior to the NMSL repeal, which leads me to surmise they were probably out West.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: SectorZ on January 23, 2022, 09:03:58 AM
^ I thought at some point in the 1980s, the federal government permitted certain rural freeways that met interstate standards to be posted at 65 mph. Perhaps none of the above examples, but others elsewhere.

Wikipedia says a separate bill later allowed "certain non-Interstate rural highways" to have 65-mph limits. I donít know what highways that covered or where they were located. I do know I never saw any non-Interstate posted at 65 prior to the NMSL repeal, which leads me to surmise they were probably out West.

I think it was more common to have 65 limits before the repeal of the NMSL. In Massachusetts alone, much of I-90, I-95 in Essex County, and I believe parts of I-91 in Franklin County all were 65.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: oscar on January 23, 2022, 09:08:29 AM
Reasonable Drivers Unanimous. That website is ancient. I don't believe Kevin Atkinson has updated it since the 1990s. It was a decent website back then despite his constant spelling errors, but it became outdated a very long time ago.

Also tracking speed limits for a few years post-NMSL repeal was the site for the National Coalition for the Abolition of Speed Limits. The NCASL and its website went kaput, apparently when he graduated from college and lost his free web space.

Prior to 1995, not a single highway had 70 or 75 mph on it. But Nevada did post a 70 mph speed limit on I-80 I think during the NMSL....

In 1996, the year after repeal of the NMSL, Nevada very briefly posted a Speed Limit Warp 7 sign, during dedication ceremonies for the newly-renamed Extraterrestrial Highway (NV 375). That two-lane highway quickly reverted to its normal 70 mph speed limit, which is still the default speed limit for Nevada's rural two-lane paved highways.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 23, 2022, 09:33:51 AM
^ I thought at some point in the 1980s, the federal government permitted certain rural freeways that met interstate standards to be posted at 65 mph. Perhaps none of the above examples, but others elsewhere.

Wikipedia says a separate bill later allowed "certain non-Interstate rural highways" to have 65-mph limits. I donít know what highways that covered or where they were located. I do know I never saw any non-Interstate posted at 65 prior to the NMSL repeal, which leads me to surmise they were probably out West.

US-51 (now I-39) in Wisconsin was definitely 65 mph by 1989 at the latest. The interstate designation wasnít applied yet.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 23, 2022, 09:37:04 AM
Tennessee had a 75 mph speed limit before!

https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-attud/maps/index2.html

Reasonable Drivers Unanimous. That website is ancient. I don't believe Kevin Atkinson has updated it since the 1990s. It was a decent website back then despite his constant spelling errors, but it became outdated a very long time ago.

Thatís like a time capsule for website design!  Last updated in 1996.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2022, 10:36:06 AM
Prior to 1995, not a single highway had 70 or 75 mph on it. But Nevada did post a 70 mph speed limit on I-80 I think during the NMSL....

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hiq/hiqapr02.htm
That law is generally credited as part of the impetus that convinced Congress to amend the national speed limit law to allow 65-mph limits on rural Interstates starting in 1986 or 1987.
Just rural interstates? Not highways like US-264 from Zebulon to Wilson, US-70 from Dover to New Bern, The Reidsville Bypass, US-64 from Wendell to Rocky Mount and so on? And US-64 East of Rocky Mount to Tarboro and just such...

They were freeways, although not built to interstate standards...

The Mid-Atlantic didn't bother doing anything until the other states raised it or when it was totally repealed. But that's just my guess.

Many people think what one state does has an effect on other states.  It rarely does.  And if it did, it would work both ways.  While we want to think that if one state has an 80 mph limit, then every state next to it should have one too.  It works in reverse.  Some would believe if one state remained at 55 mph, then every nearby state next to it should remain at 55 mph also.

For the mid-Atlantic region, they were certainly slower in updating their laws to allow 65 mph because of the limited areas that it could be instituted, or they never did adopt their laws to allow for the first-permitted 65 mph zones.  I believe both Delaware and New Jersey didn't allow 65 mph until well after the full NMSL was repealed.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: Jim on January 23, 2022, 10:51:17 AM
For the mid-Atlantic region, they were certainly slower in updating their laws to allow 65 mph because of the limited areas that it could be instituted, or they never did adopt their laws to allow for the first-permitted 65 mph zones.  I believe both Delaware and New Jersey didn't allow 65 mph until well after the full NMSL was repealed.

For the initial rollout of 65 MPH, I seem to recall that Delaware didn't even have any stretches of interstates that qualified for the higher limit.

I also remember the definition of "rural interstate" resulting in 55 remaining required in some areas where it didn't seem to make sense.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: 1995hoo on January 23, 2022, 10:59:17 AM
For the mid-Atlantic region, they were certainly slower in updating their laws to allow 65 mph because of the limited areas that it could be instituted, or they never did adopt their laws to allow for the first-permitted 65 mph zones.  I believe both Delaware and New Jersey didn't allow 65 mph until well after the full NMSL was repealed.

For the initial rollout of 65 MPH, I seem to recall that Delaware didn't even have any stretches of interstates that qualified for the higher limit.

I also remember the definition of "rural interstate" resulting in 55 remaining required in some areas where it didn't seem to make sense.

I believe I read that prior to the NMSL, Delaware's highest speed limit had been 60 mph, so between that and their not being eligible for 65 while federal controls remained, its hardly a surprise they were slow to change. (Given when I was born, I donít remember anything prior to the NMSL.)

Maryland's delay was due mainly to Gov. Schaefer inexplicably opposing anything above 55. When he left office due to term limits, his successor (Gov. Glendening) promptly signed a bill allowing 65.



Reasonable Drivers Unanimous. That website is ancient. I don't believe Kevin Atkinson has updated it since the 1990s. It was a decent website back then despite his constant spelling errors, but it became outdated a very long time ago.

Also tracking speed limits for a few years post-NMSL repeal was the site for the National Coalition for the Abolition of Speed Limits. The NCASL and its website went kaput, apparently when he graduated from college and lost his free web space.

Ö.

I vaguely recall the NCASL. If you look at the Reasonable Drivers Unanimous site, youíll see he posted something about integrating his site with the NCASL's (which never happened).
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 23, 2022, 11:03:20 AM
For the mid-Atlantic region, they were certainly slower in updating their laws to allow 65 mph because of the limited areas that it could be instituted, or they never did adopt their laws to allow for the first-permitted 65 mph zones.  I believe both Delaware and New Jersey didn't allow 65 mph until well after the full NMSL was repealed.

For the initial rollout of 65 MPH, I seem to recall that Delaware didn't even have any stretches of interstates that qualified for the higher limit.

I also remember the definition of "rural interstate" resulting in 55 remaining required in some areas where it didn't seem to make sense.

I don't think Delaware did qualify.

In NJ, it would've required, on non-interstate highways, for the NJ Turnpike to be reduced from 65 mph to 55 mph somewhere random between Interchanges 2 & 3 due to its radii from Philadelphia, miles from a nearby interchange.

When NJ did allow 65 mph (I believe 2nd to last in the continental US, with CT being the last), after its so-called trial period, it allowed 65 mph up to around Exit 12 of the NJ Turnpike, which at the time was one of the highest speed limits in the nation for a roadway of so much volume.  Also, even though NJ was late to the game, the 65 mph applied to truckers as well which made NJ truck limits faster than 12 or so other states at the time.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: Rothman on January 23, 2022, 11:36:57 AM


For the mid-Atlantic region, they were certainly slower in updating their laws to allow 65 mph because of the limited areas that it could be instituted, or they never did adopt their laws to allow for the first-permitted 65 mph zones.  I believe both Delaware and New Jersey didn't allow 65 mph until well after the full NMSL was repealed.

For the initial rollout of 65 MPH, I seem to recall that Delaware didn't even have any stretches of interstates that qualified for the higher limit.

I also remember the definition of "rural interstate" resulting in 55 remaining required in some areas where it didn't seem to make sense.

I believe I read that prior to the NMSL, Delaware's highest speed limit had been 60 mph, so between that and their not being eligible for 65 while federal controls remained, its hardly a surprise they were slow to change. (Given when I was born, I donít remember anything prior to the NMSL.)

Maryland's delay was due mainly to Gov. Schaefer inexplicably opposing anything above 55. When he left office due to term limits, his successor (Gov. Glendening) promptly signed a bill allowing 65.



STILL!

Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: 1995hoo on January 23, 2022, 11:42:26 AM


For the mid-Atlantic region, they were certainly slower in updating their laws to allow 65 mph because of the limited areas that it could be instituted, or they never did adopt their laws to allow for the first-permitted 65 mph zones.  I believe both Delaware and New Jersey didn't allow 65 mph until well after the full NMSL was repealed.

For the initial rollout of 65 MPH, I seem to recall that Delaware didn't even have any stretches of interstates that qualified for the higher limit.

I also remember the definition of "rural interstate" resulting in 55 remaining required in some areas where it didn't seem to make sense.

I believe I read that prior to the NMSL, Delaware's highest speed limit had been 60 mph, so between that and their not being eligible for 65 while federal controls remained, its hardly a surprise they were slow to change. (Given when I was born, I donít remember anything prior to the NMSL.)

Maryland's delay was due mainly to Gov. Schaefer inexplicably opposing anything above 55. When he left office due to term limits, his successor (Gov. Glendening) promptly signed a bill allowing 65.



STILL!



I remember thinking how dumb those signs were on the Beltway in the early 1990s because at the time federal law wouldnít have allowed 65 on that road anyway (not that it matters, as itís still posted at 55 and that limit is still pretty much universally ignored if traffic permits).
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: vdeane on January 23, 2022, 03:08:50 PM
Maryland's delay was due mainly to Gov. Schaefer inexplicably opposing anything above 55. When he left office due to term limits, his successor (Gov. Glendening) promptly signed a bill allowing 65.
The same thing happened in NY.  The only reason we ever got 65 was because Mario Cuomo lost his re-election bid to Pataki.  We never took advantage of the provision allowing 65 on interstates, despite having lots of eligible mileage.  I don't see us embracing 70 any time soon (even though we are now the Oregon of the east); it would probably require a change in which party controls the state, just like the last time.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: 1995hoo on January 23, 2022, 03:36:50 PM
Maryland's delay was due mainly to Gov. Schaefer inexplicably opposing anything above 55. When he left office due to term limits, his successor (Gov. Glendening) promptly signed a bill allowing 65.
The same thing happened in NY.  The only reason we ever got 65 was because Mario Cuomo lost his re-election bid to Pataki.  We never took advantage of the provision allowing 65 on interstates, despite having lots of eligible mileage.  I don't see us embracing 70 any time soon (even though we are now the Oregon of the east); it would probably require a change in which party controls the state, just like the last time.

The boldfaced applies to the repeal of the NMSL as well. Recall both houses of Congress changed hands in 1994. President Clinton didnít like the repeal provision but said he wasnít willing to veto an important highway-funding bill over that issue. Had Congress not changed hands, Iím certain that provision would not have made it into the final bill.

(Edited to add: OK, I suppose you donít "remember" the 1994 elections. I sure do, but it was my fourth year of college and youíre a few years younger! But Iím sure youíve at least read about it. I donít want to cross the forum's line about politics, but I think itís safe to say the speed limit repeal is an example of why sometimes itís good and important for control to change hands. I can think of positive things here in Virginia that have gotten done after changes in control both ways in Richmond.)
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: tolbs17 on January 23, 2022, 09:23:51 PM
When looking deeper into the website on the first post in this thread, speed limits increased to 65 mph on controlled-access highways (freeways) starting in October 1996.

https://web.archive.org/web/19980205022136/http://www.dot.state.nc.us/news/spintra.htm

Now I'm betting on when they actually increased to 70 mph although before 2013, new freeways were all posted at 65 mph. Examples include is the triangle expressway, I-485, I-540, the Knightdale Bypass (I-87), but it was increased to 70 mph sometime in 2010 i think. I-85 southeast of Greensboro, I-840, I-785, etc.

Funny thing is that I-295 is still signed at 65 mph for some unknown reason.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: sprjus4 on January 23, 2022, 09:41:40 PM
^

North Carolina posted a good amount of mileage at 70 mph in the late 90s into the early 2000s. Parts of I-95, I-85, I-40, I-77, US-64 / US-264, etc.

It has been expanded to some degree since, such as the examples you listed.

US-17 near Elizabeth City was increased to 70 mph (from 65 mph) in 2007, and I believe near Windsor was opened with 70 mph in 2008. In contrast, however, near Edenton was kept at 60 mph and 55 mph over the bridge until around 2013 when both were increased all the way to 70 mph.

Newer stretches of freeway in eastern NC have opened recently with a 70 mph limit immediately, such as US-17 around Pollocksville, and NC-11 around Greenville.

Then cases such as US-17 near Maysville and NC-148 near Kinston that have been restricted to 60 mph.

Thereís no consistency.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: Scott5114 on January 23, 2022, 10:30:29 PM
For the mid-Atlantic region, they were certainly slower in updating their laws to allow 65 mph because of the limited areas that it could be instituted, or they never did adopt their laws to allow for the first-permitted 65 mph zones.  I believe both Delaware and New Jersey didn't allow 65 mph until well after the full NMSL was repealed.

For the initial rollout of 65 MPH, I seem to recall that Delaware didn't even have any stretches of interstates that qualified for the higher limit.

I also remember the definition of "rural interstate" resulting in 55 remaining required in some areas where it didn't seem to make sense.

It also resulted in the creation of at least one Interstate to take advantage of the new speed lawóI-335 in Kansas. Before that it was signed solely as the Kansas Turnpike. KTA only requested the 335 designation because otherwise it would have been the only stretch of road in their system not eligible for a speed limit increase.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: Big John on January 23, 2022, 11:00:19 PM
^^ Add I-88 (W) in Illinois and I-43 extension from Beloit to Milwaukee for getting an interstate number and raising the speed limit to 65 at that time.
Title: Re: Cool map and website showing you the speed limits before the NMSL kicked in
Post by: SEWIGuy on January 24, 2022, 09:20:52 AM
I also think it was the main reason Illinois requested the I-39 designation.