The Staggering Cost of Road Salt

[kernals12]

I was reading this article about pervious pavement and one thing that jumped out was a quote from John S Gulliver of the University of Minnesota who says that road salt's cost, in terms of the sticker price of the Salt and the corrosion it creates on bridges and vehicles amounts to $1400 per ton. And that's not counting the impact of water pollution.

[kphoger]

I know you've already read this, but...

As my bridge engineer friend put it:  If you could invent a non-chloride way of keeping ice off roads, you could save the world trillions of dollars.

[SectorZ]

I was reading this article about pervious pavement and one thing that jumped out was a quote from John S Gulliver of the University of Minnesota who says that road salt's cost, in terms of the sticker price of the Salt and the corrosion it creates on bridges and vehicles amounts to $1400 per ton. And that's not counting the impact of water pollution.

For once I agree with you on something.

A town dead between the two of us geographically, Lincoln MA has been salt-free for decades. Somehow the town survives just fine. I-95 in Waltham next to the Cambridge Reservoir is also a salt-free stretch that seemingly has no issues being such for drivers.

I always figured after the Mianus River bridge collapse we would work on this. 35 years later and I watch my idiot town build a salt shed to double down even more on salting the roads.

[1995hoo]

One wonders how extensively the gentleman you mention chronicled his travels in researching this question.

[kalvado]

There was a pretty interesting comment about drastic salt use increase for 1980 Lake Placid Olympics. Was supposed to be one season thing, but it became the new normal.

[jmacswimmer]

I recall reading that a big contributor to the downfall of the now-replaced Champlain Bridge in Montreal was repeated salt cycles combined with inadequate drainage on the bridge deck.

For once I agree with you on something.

Make that 2 of us   I also agreed with the thread kernals12 started about air quality in subway stations, FWIW. (But with the caveat that I think transit agencies should try to improve ventilation in underground stations [as is supposedly happening at Boston Back Bay], as opposed to, say, abandoning all public transit. )

[kernals12]

I know you've already read this, but...

As my bridge engineer friend put it:  If you could invent a non-chloride way of keeping ice off roads, you could save the world trillions of dollars.

Heating coils ftw

[kernals12]

I recall reading that a big contributor to the downfall of the now-replaced Champlain Bridge in Montreal was repeated salt cycles combined with inadequate drainage on the bridge deck.

For once I agree with you on something.

Make that 2 of us   I also agreed with the thread kernals12 started about air quality in subway stations, FWIW. (But with the caveat that I think transit agencies should try to improve ventilation in underground stations [as is supposedly happening at Boston Back Bay], as opposed to, say, abandoning all public transit. )

And you definitely won't agree with my solution to this: heating coils and climate change 

[kphoger]

I know you've already read this, but...

As my bridge engineer friend put it:  If you could invent a non-chloride way of keeping ice off roads, you could save the world trillions of dollars.

Heating coils ftw

Saying it doesn't make it (a) practical or (b) cost-effective.  You think nobody thought of your idea before?

[kernals12]

I know you've already read this, but...

As my bridge engineer friend put it:  If you could invent a non-chloride way of keeping ice off roads, you could save the world trillions of dollars.

Heating coils ftw

Saying it doesn't make it (a) practical or (b) cost-effective.  You think nobody thought of your idea before?

With extremely low cost solar power on the horizon, it will be cost effective

[jemacedo9]

I know you've already read this, but...

As my bridge engineer friend put it:  If you could invent a non-chloride way of keeping ice off roads, you could save the world trillions of dollars.

Heating coils ftw

Saying it doesn't make it (a) practical or (b) cost-effective.  You think nobody thought of your idea before?

With extremely low cost solar power on the horizon, it will be cost effective

Will be.  And when it does, great.  Doesn't help NOW.  So until then...

[kphoger]

The cost of electricity doesn't cover installation and maintenance.  You're talking about electrifying the entire road network in ice-prone areas?

[kernals12]

The cost of electricity doesn't cover installation and maintenance.  You're talking about electrifying the entire road network in ice-prone areas?

They can mix in graphene with asphalt or concrete to make it electrically conductive.

[kernals12]

I know you've already read this, but...

As my bridge engineer friend put it:  If you could invent a non-chloride way of keeping ice off roads, you could save the world trillions of dollars.

Heating coils ftw

Saying it doesn't make it (a) practical or (b) cost-effective.  You think nobody thought of your idea before?

With extremely low cost solar power on the horizon, it will be cost effective

Will be.  And when it does, great.  Doesn't help NOW.  So until then...

I think we can wait 10-15 years

[GaryV]

I wonder how they keep the permeable pavement from getting potholes.  Sooner or later that water is not all going to be absorbed by the ground underneath the pavement.  It will pool inside the pavement, and then expand when the temperature drops.  (I'm sure Minnesota never had a time when it was 45 degrees one day and then 10 degrees that night.)

I think we can wait 10-15 years

By that time, they'll have to replace all the permeable pavement that has potholes.

[kphoger]

They can mix in graphene with asphalt or concrete to make it electrically conductive.

Asphalt is concrete.

And now you're getting away from cost-effectiveness again.

And I was assuming you meant plugging in the coils, not making the entire roadway conduct electricity (can't imagine how that might not go well!).

[kernals12]

They can mix in graphene with asphalt or concrete to make it electrically conductive.

Asphalt is concrete.

And now you're getting away from cost-effectiveness again.

And I was assuming you meant plugging in the coils, not making the entire roadway conduct electricity (can't imagine how that might not go well!).

https://www.internationales-verkehrswesen.de/concrete-conducts-electricity/

If you just mix in graphene with concrete when it's poured then the installation cost is negligible and if it's an inherent property of the concrete there's no maintenance

[Chris19001]

With extremely low cost solar power on the horizon, it will be cost effective

I got it!  Atomic roads!  Harness the limitless potential of the atom to a bright future without ice!  LOL.

[vdeane]

I wonder how they keep the permeable pavement from getting potholes.  Sooner or later that water is not all going to be absorbed by the ground underneath the pavement.  It will pool inside the pavement, and then expand when the temperature drops.  (I'm sure Minnesota never had a time when it was 45 degrees one day and then 10 degrees that night.)

I think we can wait 10-15 years

By that time, they'll have to replace all the permeable pavement that has potholes.

I know a (I believe municipal) test of using porous concrete for a sidewalk didn't even last a single winter for that reason.  The asphalt seems to work better.

[SectorZ]

With extremely low cost solar power on the horizon, it will be cost effective

I got it!  Atomic roads!  Harness the limitless potential of the atom to a bright future without ice!  LOL.

Drive your luxurious Edsel down the road of tomorrow!

[1995hoo]

Shame on me for thinking this thread had potential instead of being a way to route people back to a certain poster's pet ideas.

[kphoger]

They can mix in graphene with asphalt or concrete to make it electrically conductive.

Asphalt is concrete.

And now you're getting away from cost-effectiveness again.

And I was assuming you meant plugging in the coils, not making the entire roadway conduct electricity (can't imagine how that might not go well!).

https://www.internationales-verkehrswesen.de/concrete-conducts-electricity/

If you just mix in graphene with concrete when it's poured then the installation cost is negligible and if it's an inherent property of the concrete there's no maintenance

I meant the materials cost.

[FrCorySticha]

With extremely low cost solar power on the horizon, it will be cost effective

I got it!  Atomic roads!  Harness the limitless potential of the atom to a bright future without ice!  LOL.

He seems to be 100% convinced that we'll have unlimited power for almost no cost. I hope it happens. It needs to happen. But there's a saying from the old days before electricity that fits here as well: don't count your chickens before they hatch. Let's actually develop this "extremely low cost solar power" before we even start planning more ways to overtax it.

[mgk920]

There is a reason why the Mackinac Bridge Authority doesn't allow salt anywhere near their bridge!

Why are there oodles of century-plus old steel bridges still in everyday heavy use on mainline railroads?

Mike

[kernals12]

With extremely low cost solar power on the horizon, it will be cost effective

I got it!  Atomic roads!  Harness the limitless potential of the atom to a bright future without ice!  LOL.

He seems to be 100% convinced that we'll have unlimited power for almost no cost. I hope it happens. It needs to happen. But there's a saying from the old days before electricity that fits here as well: don't count your chickens before they hatch. Let's actually develop this "extremely low cost solar power" before we even start planning more ways to overtax it.

I'm not planning anything, I don't work for a state DOT. I'm just a random amateur futurist. I've been convinced about solar power being "too cheap to meter" from what I've read about perovskites and hot carriers.