Regional Boards > Canada
OTM Book 12 "Standard/Highway" Signals
cl94:
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 11:16:28 PM ---Sometime in the late 80s, the advanced green defined by the green ball + green arrow appeared in the manual, and seeing as there are some kicking around today, that means it has taken nearly 30 years to make the flashing green ball extinct. I know the FYA is supposed to do the same thing across every state, we might still be seeing doghouses 30 years from now.
--- End quote ---
Certainly in some parts of the country, but I picture most state DOTs switching over pretty soon. Massachusetts plans to get rid of every state-owned doghouse in the next couple years (and they have already started), while New York is doing it by region (with some of those switching using FYAs almost exclusively now). I expect the remaining doghouses in much of the country to live out the rest of their service lives and be replaced, as installing an FYA requires replacing the controller unless the controller is specifically designed for it. Of course, NYSDOT Region 5 might be a bit of a holdover (everything they have plans for through the end of this year is doghouses).
Local governments are a different story. Many still install bimodal arrows, even though those are a no-no, while others only have one signal head per approach for new installs. Unless doghouses are specifically banned, we'll keep seeing them for quite some time just because local governments don't give a damn.
7/8:
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 11:16:28 PM ---As for the split phasing, I got off on a bit of tangent to start off here, in nearly ALL cases in the GTA in which I have seen split phasing used. Like at Mountainash/Bovaird/Sunnyvale. The green phase shows a green ball + green arrow, but when the light turns yellow, the green arrow disappears and just a yellow ball appears. Although at Airport/Intermodal/Woodslea, the yellow arrow has been showing recently with the yellow ball on ONLY the Intermodal split phase (The Woodslea split phase does not display the yellow arrow). So most split phases in Ontario follow this sequence in reality:
Red Ball
Green Ball + Green Arrow
Yellow Ball
Red Ball
--- End quote ---
Oh okay. Next time I'm at King St and Farmers Market Rd north of Waterloo, I'll have to see how they signal the yellow in the split phasing. I can see why the yellow arrow and ball would be a little better than just a yellow ball, but it still seems pretty straightforward.
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 11:16:28 PM ---An extended green or lagging left probably does exist somewhere in Ontario, but it would most likely be found at a T intersection.
It could in theory be used at a regular intersection where 2 two way streets intersect, the yellow trap is prevented when the side opposing the direction that gets the lagging left has a left turn restriction. Take for example Dundas St and Bay St, NB Bay has no restriction at all on left turns while SB Bay has a time restriction, I believe 7AM-7PM on weekdays (You learn the time restrictions fairly quickly when you Uber downtown for a few weeks)
Since SB Bay can't make a left turn (at least during this time restriction), then there is no issue with running a lagging left (or extended green) on NB Bay as there can't possibly be a yellow trap situation.
At the intersection of Yonge and Harbour, if you are turning left onto Yonge, the green arrow signal appears later on in the phase, but this lagging arrow appears moreso as a protection against pedestrians than oncoming traffic. This intersection is strange and I have not observed the phasing here like I have at many other intersections, so I am not 100% sure of what goes on here. But I know as a fact that the green arrow appears long after the green ball has been on.
--- End quote ---
Sorry, there aren't many spots in KW (at least the parts I regularly drive) with left turn restrictions, but that's a good point. I feel a bit dumn for not thinking of that :spin:
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 11:16:28 PM ---As for a lead and lag for the same left movement, it sounds like an interesting proposition, I wonder if that is done anywhere currently. Understand that if you have both a lead and lag movement for the same left turn movement, that the opposing direction will face more red time, as will the cross traffic on the one way street. It appears that there is not enough space for two actual lanes in this situation. So just looking at this situation, how about redesigning the intersection, I'm not sure how active this intersection is with pedestrians, but what if we have an actual left turn lane and a through lane on one side, and an option lane on the other side (straight or right), if pedestrian activity is high at this intersection, the option lane would not be feasible. (If pedestrian traffic is low enough, the pedestrian crossing that can create the conflict could be removed, I know this is not ideal, but it can be done)
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I'm confused here too. You say there isn't enough space to add a lane, which I agree with. There isn't even a boulevard to get rid of for expanding the road. But then you say they could add a left turn lane? Of course that would be ideal, but I unless they start encroaching on neighbouring properties, I simply don't think there's enough room. But maybe I'm missing understanding what you're saying...
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 11:16:28 PM ---As for a FULLY PROTECTED lagging left, I know they exist at Lake Shore/Windermere, and Lake Shore/Colborne Lodge. What happens here, Lake Shore Blvd gets a green ball for EB and WB, the light for WB Lake Shore changes back to red, and then the EB Lake Shore Blvd LEFT TURN signal displays the green arrow. This is an intersection that clearly shows the positives of the FYA, as this is a single left turning lane, if traffic is clear on opposing Lake Shore, one could make the turn during a flashing yellow arrow, as in the current setup would be a solid red throughout the whole phase until their green arrow appears for the left turn.
--- End quote ---
You bring up an interesting point here, and it could easily be implemented with the current signals. Of course, it would require lots of driver education to teach Ontarians what the FYA is.
But why not simply use a Type 9 or 10? Then they could use a green bulb for the left-turn lanes too, which would function more-or-less as an FYA. Usually, when I see a Type 2 left-turn signal such as this one, it's for two left turn lanes. And this makes sense to me, since it would be unsafe for two left-turn lanes to try making lefts with on-coming traffic. Do you know why this turn uses a Type 2?
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 11:16:28 PM ---
--- Quote from: cl94 on July 20, 2016, 09:41:32 PM ---30-20-20 was definitely the most common install in Southern Ontario until relatively recently and still by far the most common in many areas, including the Niagara Peninsula. The flashing green ball was basically the Ontario version of a 4-section with a green left arrow.
--- End quote ---
All new signals to my knowledge are still the 30-20-20 variety normally.
--- End quote ---
I think there are some new 30-30-30's, but I agree most new ones I've seen are 30-20-20. I'll note that at the intersection of Fairway Rd and Lackner Blvd in Kitchener, Fairway Rd had two 30-30-30 3-bulb signals. They recently added left-turn signals, and they're Type 9 (30-20-20-30) instead of Type 9A, which would match the 30-30-30 signal right beside them.
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 11:16:28 PM ---Of course, with the flashing green ball, you have absolutely NO IDEA when the phase will end, generally as I recall seeing these more common in my real younger days, like early to mid 90s, when the flashing green ball became solid, opposing traffic instantly got a green, there was no clearance phase involved.
--- End quote ---
This is a good point too. The yellow arrow is certainly helpful!
cbeach40:
--- Quote from: 7/8 on July 20, 2016, 07:39:38 PM ---The "Standard" signal is 20-20-20cm, which I don't think I've ever seen in Ontario. I certainly wouldn't call it standard!
The "Highway" signal is 30-20-20. Okay, but what about a regular 30-30-30 signal with no turn arrows?
Judging from KW-area signals, I think it would be more correct to call the 30-20-20 signal "Standard", and call the 30-30-30 signal "Highway"
What's going on here?
--- End quote ---
20-20-20 was in widespread use at one point. Now it has been phased out in favour of Highway (30-20-20) and Oversize Highway (30-30-30).
So, you have two options:
1. Change the name of "Highway" to "Standard" and then come up with a new name for the handful of old 20-20-20 heads. Then change "Oversize Highway" to "Highway" heads. Then have to go through and spend millions of dollars updating the PH-M-125 drawings for every single signalized intersection in the province.
2. Keep it as is, and while regional and municipal preferences may not choose "Standard" anymore, the terms are universally known and understood.
So, guess which one was done? :nod:
7/8:
--- Quote from: cbeach40 on July 22, 2016, 10:06:31 AM ---
--- Quote from: 7/8 on July 20, 2016, 07:39:38 PM ---The "Standard" signal is 20-20-20cm, which I don't think I've ever seen in Ontario. I certainly wouldn't call it standard!
The "Highway" signal is 30-20-20. Okay, but what about a regular 30-30-30 signal with no turn arrows?
Judging from KW-area signals, I think it would be more correct to call the 30-20-20 signal "Standard", and call the 30-30-30 signal "Highway"
What's going on here?
--- End quote ---
20-20-20 was in widespread use at one point. Now it has been phased out in favour of Highway (30-20-20) and Oversize Highway (30-30-30).
So, you have two options:
1. Change the name of "Highway" to "Standard" and then come up with a new name for the handful of old 20-20-20 heads. Then change "Oversize Highway" to "Highway" heads. Then have to go through and spend millions of dollars updating the PH-M-125 drawings for every single signalized intersection in the province.
2. Keep it as is, and while regional and municipal preferences may not choose "Standard" anymore, the terms are universally known and understood.
So, guess which one was done? :nod:
--- End quote ---
Okay, I guess I underestimated the amount of work it would be to update the names :-D
Do you know how far back we're going for 20-20-20 to be standard? This must be quite a few years.
But also, how come I don't see the "Oversize" signal in that figure in my first post? That was another thing that confused me since there are plenty of "Oversize" signals that I've seen.
MisterSG1:
--- Quote from: 7/8 on July 21, 2016, 10:10:02 PM ---
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 11:16:28 PM ---As for a lead and lag for the same left movement, it sounds like an interesting proposition, I wonder if that is done anywhere currently. Understand that if you have both a lead and lag movement for the same left turn movement, that the opposing direction will face more red time, as will the cross traffic on the one way street. It appears that there is not enough space for two actual lanes in this situation. So just looking at this situation, how about redesigning the intersection, I'm not sure how active this intersection is with pedestrians, but what if we have an actual left turn lane and a through lane on one side, and an option lane on the other side (straight or right), if pedestrian activity is high at this intersection, the option lane would not be feasible. (If pedestrian traffic is low enough, the pedestrian crossing that can create the conflict could be removed, I know this is not ideal, but it can be done)
--- End quote ---
I'm confused here too. You say there isn't enough space to add a lane, which I agree with. There isn't even a boulevard to get rid of for expanding the road. But then you say they could add a left turn lane? Of course that would be ideal, but I unless they start encroaching on neighbouring properties, I simply don't think there's enough room. But maybe I'm missing understanding what you're saying...
--- End quote ---
Ok, it looks I have made a contradictory statement, but I didn't intend to. Basically, I was suggesting that they shift the yellow line over at this intersection. It appears that Regina has 1.5 lanes in each direction at the intersection. It may be possible at the intersection only, to have NB Regina (at Bridgeport) have 2 lanes, which one would be a left turn lane, and the other would be a through lane. Meanwhile SB Regina would have 1 lane, and this lane would be an option right turn lane/through lane. Obviously a portion of SB Regina before the intersection would have to have a yellow buffer zone as to shift the traffic movement to the right.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 20, 2016, 11:16:28 PM ---As for a FULLY PROTECTED lagging left, I know they exist at Lake Shore/Windermere, and Lake Shore/Colborne Lodge. What happens here, Lake Shore Blvd gets a green ball for EB and WB, the light for WB Lake Shore changes back to red, and then the EB Lake Shore Blvd LEFT TURN signal displays the green arrow. This is an intersection that clearly shows the positives of the FYA, as this is a single left turning lane, if traffic is clear on opposing Lake Shore, one could make the turn during a flashing yellow arrow, as in the current setup would be a solid red throughout the whole phase until their green arrow appears for the left turn.
--- End quote ---
You bring up an interesting point here, and it could easily be implemented with the current signals. Of course, it would require lots of driver education to teach Ontarians what the FYA is.
But why not simply use a Type 9 or 10? Then they could use a green bulb for the left-turn lanes too, which would function more-or-less as an FYA. Usually, when I see a Type 2 left-turn signal such as this one, it's for two left turn lanes. And this makes sense to me, since it would be unsafe for two left-turn lanes to try making lefts with on-coming traffic. Do you know why this turn uses a Type 2?
--- End quote ---
I just thought about that for a second now as well, and I believe the reason why a "fully protected left turn" is used here rather than the "permissive-protected left turn" has to do with line of sight. I think with the wide median, it may be more difficult to see oncoming traffic, there may be specific situations in Book 12 that shows when you must use a "fully protected left turn" that have to do with line of sight.
Similarly, you may be familliar with the Goreway/Queen intersection in Brampton. EB Queen and WB Queen both have ONE SINGLE left turn lane. However, EB Queen has a fully protected left turn, while WB Queen has a permissive-protected left turn. If you look EB along Queen, you can see that line of sight beyond the intersection is not that great as traffic comes blind uphill.
Also interesting, it appears these signals in the manual are a guideline, at Yonge and Bloor, the lights on Bloor have four signal heads with this order:
RED BALL
YELLOW BALL
GREEN BALL
GREEN UP ARROW
I'll let you figure out how this intersection works.....the biggest hint is that the two greens (the ball and arrow) do not come on together EVER. The point I'm making is that this type of traffic light is NOT in the manual.
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