US 78 in Memphis needs realigning. It enters from Mississippi along Lamar Ave, then just beyond Bellevue Blvd (US 51), suddenly shifts north and west along Martin Luther King Blvd and Linden Ave , eventually ending unceremoniously at US 64/70/79. IMO, it should shift slightly SW following EH Crump, since Crump appears to be an extension of Lamar. Crump also eventually becomes 70/79/64/61, so it would make more sense.
I've never really understood why the US highway layout in Memphis is so messy and overly-complicated.
Simple answer: because TDOT really doesn't care. Virtually nobody follows the signed routes in town and the only routes that matter for inventory and maintenance purposes are the underlying state routes, which are generally, but not always, more rational.
Plus, Memphians generally navigate by street names; you'll never hear anyone talk about a numbered route except an Interstate or if they're headed way outside of town - either the state/county line or crossing the Loossahatchie seems to be the boundary. Inside that area, mention a route number and you'll generally either get a blank stare or a response like "isn't that in Mississippi?"
Having driven all of 51, 61, 72 and 78 in Memphis, I agree that all of the US routes need better signage. Tennessee in general does a terrible job of signing numbered routes in the cities.
Here is my suggestion: Retract US 78 to Birmingham!
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2016, 05:35:26 PM
Here is my suggestion: Retract US 78 to Birmingham!
Just move it to Crump, would be simplest
I bet they just want to maximize the state highway funds on as much roadway as possible.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on October 14, 2016, 12:21:46 PM
I bet they just want to maximize the state highway funds on as much roadway as possible.
Possible, but at least sign the darn roads!
Quote from: US71 on October 14, 2016, 09:57:47 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2016, 05:35:26 PM
Here is my suggestion: Retract US 78 to Birmingham!
Just move it to Crump, would be simplest
If they want to have a Route that goes into memphis...sign it between 269 and 240 as "Business Loop 22" and retract 78 to birmingham.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on October 19, 2016, 04:21:29 PM
Quote from: US71 on October 14, 2016, 09:57:47 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2016, 05:35:26 PM
Here is my suggestion: Retract US 78 to Birmingham!
Just move it to Crump, would be simplest
If they want to have a Route that goes into memphis...sign it between 269 and 240 as "Business Loop 22" and retract 78 to birmingham.
Actually, "Business SPUR 22" might be more appropriate; echoing the Business SPUR 20 arrangement in Florence, SC east of the I-20/95 interchange.
Or, one could assign the orphaned freeway west of I-22 as a 3di (maybe I-122) and then the rest of Lamar would just carry the TN 4 designation.
Quote from: codyg1985 on October 20, 2016, 07:48:43 AM
Or, one could assign the orphaned freeway west of I-22 as a 3di (maybe I-122) and then the rest of Lamar would just carry the TN 4 designation.
Actually, that's an even better idea. Also include local trailblazers (on Lamar and intersecting streets only) displaying "TO I-x22"/Tupelo (or Birmingham), since after the completion of the connecting I-269, that freeway facility will constitute the main through-traffic access to and from the other trunk Interstates in the region. A Lamar/TN 4 + I-x22 corridor would best serve as local access, including to/from the airport.
I don't like the idea of adding a 3-digit Interstate off the end of an Interstate if it a 3 digit Interstate of the same number (Example: Interstate 45 becomes Interstate 345 north of Interstate 30, and the remnants of Interstate 181 north of 81 almost became Interstate 126). I think Interstate 22 should go to the Mississippi/Tennessee state line. If it can't, the freeway should become an odd numbered spur of Interstate 69 (e.g. 169).
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9993811,-89.882053,3a,75y,263.05h,86.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCYRXyynS-6nBsEtjF3Kr6g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0
Eastbound US 78 is being worked on as of last month.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0035985,-89.8851896,3a,54.9y,331.1h,86.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFa7uRfGPKqJ-J0XFxMU1cQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0
Additionally, it looks like there's a ramp to Holmes Road eastbound.
I think it's pretty obvious to everyone Lamar Avenue needs to be a 100% limited access, Interstate quality freeway from I-240 down to the I-269 beltway. The projects TDOT has on the books will bring US-78 much closer to Interstate quality up to the intersection with Getwell Road. Once the new interchange projects at the Holmes, Winchester and Shelby intersections are completed they can then work on diverting miscellaneous driveways and side streets in between.
Once all that work is done US-78 will be down to just the 2 mile gap between I-240 and Getwell Road. There is a lot of heavy truck and other commercial traffic on that route. TDOT will just have to chip away at the problem one property at a time.
Given the nature of Memphis International Airport and the big FedEx hub next door that part of Memphis needs a LOT more in the way of freeway movement. Upgrading US-78 to Interstate quality up to I-240 is not enough. Plough Blvd and its interchange with I-240 needs improvement. I think an excellent case could be made for upgrading Winchester Road between the airport and US-78 to Interstate quality. Shelby Drive between I-55 and US-78 could use some serious upgrades. If not full Interstate quality then at least some grade-separated intersections.
Memphis overall needs a LOT of work on highways all around that metro. The ratty old I-55 Mississippi River bridge is in desperate need of replacement. There are at least plans to improve the Crump Blvd interchange bottleneck. The I-269 beltway is really only halfway complete; another semi-circle needs to be built over into Arkansas.
^ Given a number of things:
- The South's aversion to taxes
- Property rights in the South
- Tennessee being strictly a pay-as-you-go-state
- The Memphis area's status as redheaded stepchild to the rest of the state
...I feel you are asking for way too much there. 78 will not be freewayed in our lifetimes...the gap you speak of is denser than where they are currently putting interchanges. Winchester has significant development, including residential, right up on it...expanding that would be both expensive and very impactful...including one of the MEM runways and 3 of the 4 north-south taxiways unless you just leave the existing tunnel as-is under those facilities. Shelby isn't much better than Winchester in that regard, with development right up along the road including houses, businesses, and a fire station.
The only things on your list I can realistically see happening in the next few decades are a 240/Plough upgrade and another bridge over the river, though the latter would require a SIGNIFICANT commitment from the state in a region that they tend to ignore.
^
The US-78 upgrade, while certainly challenging, is at least a realistic proposal and has merit based on bottleneck conditions on that route heading to I-240.
The others mentioned, such as the two parallel east-west routes by the airport, seem unrealistic, IMO, and won't ever happen. Are they even needed?
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 26, 2021, 02:53:18 AM
^
The US-78 upgrade, while certainly challenging, is at least a realistic proposal and has merit based on bottleneck conditions on that route heading to I-240.
The others mentioned, such as the two parallel east-west routes by the airport, seem unrealistic, IMO, and won't ever happen. Are they even needed?
If anything, state line rd would be a good East/West candidate for becoming a limited access route. Looks like there is some ROW along the route.
Quote from: froggieI feel you are asking for way too much there. 78 will not be freewayed in our lifetimes...the gap you speak of is denser than where they are currently putting interchanges. Winchester has significant development, including residential, right up on it...expanding that would be both expensive and very impactful...including one of the MEM runways and 3 of the 4 north-south taxiways unless you just leave the existing tunnel as-is under those facilities. Shelby isn't much better than Winchester in that regard, with development right up along the road including houses, businesses, and a fire station.
The 2 miles of US-78 from I-240 to Getwell Road is not picturesque at all. The properties alongside the road are mostly commercial/industrial with a mix of convenience stores and other service businesses peppered in there. It's generally easier to buy up that kind of ROW than it is residential property. Since the surroundings in that area are already pretty ugly the option of an elevated freeway built over the top of existing US-78 might not generate a lot of resistance.
I think once all the other improvements are completed on US-78 to the Southeast of Getwell Road it will put more focus on that last 2 mile gap. I've seen dense, cluttered areas of property cleared out before. I lived on the Quantico Marine Corps base in the mid 1980's. US-1 going thru Triangle, VA looked a hell of a lot different than it does now. We're talking a night/day difference. Dozens of properties along US-1 were cleared to widen out the road and "clean up" the main entrance to
The Crossroads of the 'Corps.
The FedEx hub generates a great deal of traffic. It's a bit surprising Democrat Road is just a 5-lane surface street running through there. The railroad crossing, going over a busy double-track route, is at-grade rather than grade-separated. That must create some traffic headaches.
Winchester Road has a good deal of residential properties lining its South Side between the Int'l Airport and US-78. But none are high end properties. And the closer you get to US-78 the surroundings grow more industrial in nature.
Memphis is certainly treated as a red-headed step child in Tennessee politics. But doesn't FedEx have some clout? It seems like they might be able to lobby for various improvements, even if they're "spot" improvements targeting one intersection at a time. Such improvements can accumulate over time.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 26, 2021, 11:38:50 AM
Quote from: froggieI feel you are asking for way too much there. 78 will not be freewayed in our lifetimes...the gap you speak of is denser than where they are currently putting interchanges. Winchester has significant development, including residential, right up on it...expanding that would be both expensive and very impactful...including one of the MEM runways and 3 of the 4 north-south taxiways unless you just leave the existing tunnel as-is under those facilities. Shelby isn't much better than Winchester in that regard, with development right up along the road including houses, businesses, and a fire station.
The 2 miles of US-78 from I-240 to Getwell Road is not picturesque at all. The properties alongside the road are mostly commercial/industrial with a mix of convenience stores and other service businesses peppered in there. It's generally easier to buy up that kind of ROW than it is residential property. Since the surroundings in that area are already pretty ugly the option of an elevated freeway built over the top of existing US-78 might not generate a lot of resistance.
I think once all the other improvements are completed on US-78 to the Southeast of Getwell Road it will put more focus on that last 2 mile gap. I've seen dense, cluttered areas of property cleared out before. I lived on the Quantico Marine Corps base in the mid 1980's. US-1 going thru Triangle, VA looked a hell of a lot different than it does now. We're talking a night/day difference. Dozens of properties along US-1 were cleared to widen out the road and "clean up" the main entrance to The Crossroads of the 'Corps.
The FedEx hub generates a great deal of traffic. It's a bit surprising Democrat Road is just a 5-lane surface street running through there. The railroad crossing, going over a busy double-track route, is at-grade rather than grade-separated. That must create some traffic headaches.
Winchester Road has a good deal of residential properties lining its South Side between the Int'l Airport and US-78. But none are high end properties. And the closer you get to US-78 the surroundings grow more industrial in nature.
Memphis is certainly treated as a red-headed step child in Tennessee politics. But doesn't FedEx have some clout? It seems like they might be able to lobby for various improvements, even if they're "spot" improvements targeting one intersection at a time. Such improvements can accumulate over time.
In theory, they can build a new US 78 / I-x22 section like they did in Huntsville, AL with the US 431/231 roadway in the early / mid 1980's.
I'm too lazy to look it up, but ten or fifteen years ago there was an alternative analysis done for US 78 between I-240 and the Mississippi line, and it found that full conversion to an Interstate-quality freeway wouldn't be as cost-effective as a more modest package of improvements. For an Interstate-quality link to be built there will require a policy decision to build something that isn't economically justified plus a political decision to come up with a way to fund it.
^
Phase it out.
Modest upgrades first, then fill in the gaps overtime.
Or at minimum, eliminate all or most of the traffic signals and have a "jersey freeway" where a full freeway is simply not achievable.
I am just wondering by the end of all of these upgrades and driveway diversions that US 78 will be upgraded to I-22 up to I-240 (or the inner beltway in Memphis).
If it will be signed Interstate 22, when do you think it will be first signed? (I am guessing by the late 2020s or early 2030s.)
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on December 26, 2021, 03:17:54 PM
I am just wondering by the end of all of these upgrades and driveway diversions that US 78 will be upgraded to I-22 up to I-240 (or the inner beltway in Memphis).
If it will be signed Interstate 22, when do you think it will be first signed? (I am guessing by the late 2020s or early 2030s.)
It's not going to be.
That last 2 mile stretch stands in the way, and the segment being upgraded is, unfortunately, not to full interstate standards. There will still be the occasional driveway and cross road, I believe.
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 26, 2021, 03:51:12 PM
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on December 26, 2021, 03:17:54 PM
I am just wondering by the end of all of these upgrades and driveway diversions that US 78 will be upgraded to I-22 up to I-240 (or the inner beltway in Memphis).
If it will be signed Interstate 22, when do you think it will be first signed? (I am guessing by the late 2020s or early 2030s.)
It's not going to be.
That last 2 mile stretch stands in the way, and the segment being upgraded is, unfortunately, not to full interstate standards. There will still be the occasional driveway and cross road, I believe.
https://www.tn.gov/tdot/projects/region-4/lamar-avenue.html
It also turns out the last 2 miles of US 78 to I-240 isn't on the project list.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 13, 2016, 05:35:26 PM
Here is my suggestion: Retract US 78 to Birmingham!
Or to Atlanta.
Seriously, it's entirely redundant in Mississippi. Why not remove it in both Mississippi and Tennessee?
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4It also turns out the last 2 miles of US 78 to I-240 isn't on the project list.
I thought I had already said Getwell Road was the end barrier for the intersection improvement projects along US-78/Lamar Ave.
Quote from: sprjus4There will still be the occasional driveway and cross road, I believe.
Yeah the Winchester, Shelby and Holmes intersection projects with US-78 is only a partial step toward bringing that stretch of US-78 up to Interstate standards. Those are the most difficult intersections however.
Old Highway 78, Tuggle Road, Pleasant Run Road, Pleasant Hill Road, Concorde Road, Clearpool Circle Road X 2 are all intersections that must be hurdled or cut off (along with lots of driveways). It may be possible to deal with that using frontage roads and elevating the main lanes at least some of the way.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 26, 2021, 06:14:59 PM
I thought I had already said Getwell Road was the end barrier for the intersection improvement projects along US-78/Lamar Ave.
It looks like you have mentioned about how it's heavy in traffic. So it looks like I-22 will stay at I-269 for it's western terminus for at least a while.
The Winchester Road widening/re-do, with all its residential and business impacts on that route, would be a non-starter for any politician wishing to remain in a job.
Quote from: CoolAngrybirdsrio4 on December 26, 2021, 06:42:23 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on December 26, 2021, 06:14:59 PM
I thought I had already said Getwell Road was the end barrier for the intersection improvement projects along US-78/Lamar Ave.
It looks like you have mentioned about how it's heavy in traffic. So it looks like I-22 will stay at I-269 for it's western terminus for at least a while.
Or forever. Memphis has much bigger transportation issues (and issues in general) than to poke I-22 further northwest into Memphis. This will be a situation like KC with US-71 and I-49. The status quo will remain until there is a local push to change it. As much as we'd like I-22 to run up the US-63 corridor and connect Memphis to KC, if it ever actually happened, also unlikely in our lifetimes, it would just be routed along I-240 and across one of the existing bridges, which is pretty much how it functionally is currently with I-55 and I-555 serving almost half of Arkansas' freeway mileage. Missouri doesn't have much interest in freeways right now other than I-70 and I-57, and that's halfhearted at best.
^ And it's important to mention, while it doesn't directly affect the US-78 portion in question, the completion of I-269 between I-22 and I-55 in Mississippi allows through traffic to bypass the corridor entirely, on entirely 70 mph interstate highway.
Quote from: sprjus4 on December 27, 2021, 12:47:39 PM
^ And it's important to mention, while it doesn't directly affect the US-78 portion in question, the completion of I-269 between I-22 and I-55 in Mississippi allows through traffic to bypass the corridor entirely, on entirely 70 mph interstate highway.
I don't know why I said I-240 before. It was I-269 I was thinking of since that's the current end of I-22. :pan:
I don't see an upgrade of US 78 happening. Not in the political climate. Shelby County just lost representation in the State House after the redistricting due to the immense population growth in Middle Tennessee.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on January 06, 2022, 10:14:05 AM
I don't see an upgrade of US 78 happening. Not in the political climate. Shelby County just lost representation in the State House after the redistricting due to the immense population growth in Middle Tennessee.
Memphis is the red-headed stepchild of Tennessee. There's times I wonder if they'd just rather give it away to Arkansas or Mississippi.
Quote from: MikieTimT on January 06, 2022, 11:41:09 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on January 06, 2022, 10:14:05 AM
I don't see an upgrade of US 78 happening. Not in the political climate. Shelby County just lost representation in the State House after the redistricting due to the immense population growth in Middle Tennessee.
Memphis is the red-headed stepchild of Tennessee. There's times I wonder if they'd just rather give it away to Arkansas or Mississippi.
If it includes all of Shelby County and the Tenn land now on the western side of the main channel of the MS. Arkansas should take Memphis in a heartbeat with Fed Ex and the Logistics still well within the county. It would much more representative in in Gov, so that will not happen.
The Red Headed step child controlled TN until just a few decades ago. If it ever did catch fire like other Southern metroa, it will again gain clout.
I think the situation along US-78/Lamar Ave and the I-55 corridor crossing the Mississippi River is a serious safety issue. Just about everyone in this forum knows that stretch carries a high volume of heavy truck traffic. The Tennessee state government may treat Memphis like the red headed step child city of cities in the state. Nevertheless, Memphis sits at an important crossroads in the nation's highway network. If the state government is going to continue dragging its feet on improvements the federal government ought to intervene. And really the feds should be doing so anyway since new bridges and highways in the Memphis area are of national interest.
As of late 2023, US 78 no longer terminates in Memphis (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=34049.msg2908709). But I was looking through Street View to see how it was signposted prior to the reroute/extension, and it seems like anyone trying to follow US 78 east out of downtown would have had a hard time, and not just because of the dismal signage: drivers heading south on MLK are prohibited from turning left (east) onto Lamar. It looks like the alignments of the I-240 southbound offramp and MLK-Lamar-Crump were reconfigured in the '90s. Is that when it became impossible to follow US 78 eastbound? Did TDOT (or the City) ever attempt to address that issue?
Quote from: usends on March 29, 2024, 06:54:23 PMAs of late 2023, US 78 no longer terminates in Memphis (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=34049.msg2908709). But I was looking through Street View to see how it was signposted prior to the reroute/extension, and it seems like anyone trying to follow US 78 east out of downtown would have had a hard time, and not just because of the dismal signage: drivers heading south on MLK are prohibited from turning left (east) onto Lamar. It looks like the alignments of the I-240 southbound offramp and MLK-Lamar-Crump were reconfigured in the '90s. Is that when it became impossible to follow US 78 eastbound? Did TDOT (or the City) ever attempt to address that issue?
Yes...see https://maps.app.goo.gl/JvevfjZhNnBaB5q19 and https://maps.app.goo.gl/rrskyJs3ZkmchNTXA
Historicaerials seem to show it marked to prohibit that movement in the 1971 aerial, though unlike today it was still physically possible.
The 2024 Arkansas state map has US 78 indicated, but didn't have time evidently to mark it in red as they customarily do US routes.
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 29, 2024, 07:29:50 PMQuote from: usends on March 29, 2024, 06:54:23 PMAs of late 2023, US 78 no longer terminates in Memphis (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=34049.msg2908709). But I was looking through Street View to see how it was signposted prior to the reroute/extension, and it seems like anyone trying to follow US 78 east out of downtown would have had a hard time, and not just because of the dismal signage: drivers heading south on MLK are prohibited from turning left (east) onto Lamar. It looks like the alignments of the I-240 southbound offramp and MLK-Lamar-Crump were reconfigured in the '90s. Is that when it became impossible to follow US 78 eastbound? Did TDOT (or the City) ever attempt to address that issue?
Yes...see https://maps.app.goo.gl/JvevfjZhNnBaB5q19 and https://maps.app.goo.gl/rrskyJs3ZkmchNTXA
Historicaerials seem to show it marked to prohibit that movement in the 1971 aerial, though unlike today it was still physically possible.
TDOT installed a sign at MLK and East St. for eastbound traffic to turn on East St. which meets up with Crump Blvd. just a few blocks south. The 78 shield was still in place at that point on MLK just a few days ago - even though 78 shields have been added on the new alignment over Crump Blvd.
You can see the shield on the January 2023 imagery in Google Street View.
(https://imgur.com/a/ovJDotg)
Replying to the remark that the new routing of US 78 in Arkansas is still not shown in red on their new highway map, it is such a stupid and unneeded alignment it doesn't deserve to be shown in red.