Left on Red Scenarios

[coatimundi]

There are two left-on-red scenarios in Downtown Monterey that I encounter each morning on my bus ride to work, and both have seen actions by the bus drivers that contradict what I know about the rules of left on red, so I wanted to see what others thought of this.

Scenario 1: https://goo.gl/maps/MFrkae1o9RB2
You are on a one-way street (behind you in this image). There's a one-way street crossing at the signal. However, the street in front of you is two-way, but approaching traffic can only turn right. Is left on red (from Tyler to Franklin) permitted?

Scenario 2: https://goo.gl/maps/aqq4MwsnYLB2
A five-way intersection. You can go straight (one-way), right (two-way), left at a 45-degree angle onto Lighthouse (two-way), or left at a 90-degree angle onto Del Monte (one-way). If you look at the signal in the median of Lighthouse, there's a sign "TURN ON RED AFTER STOP". Can you turn left onto Del Monte (90-degree left) while the light is red?

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what others think of these situations.

[cappicard]

The newly opened DDI at 95th St over I-35 allows drivers from eastbound 95th St onto northbound I-35 to turn left on red after yielding. And the same for the opposite directions.


iPhone

[jeffandnicole]

Scenario 1: https://goo.gl/maps/MFrkae1o9RB2
You are on a one-way street (behind you in this image). There's a one-way street crossing at the signal. However, the street in front of you is two-way, but approaching traffic can only turn right. Is left on red (from Tyler to Franklin) permitted?

Permitted.  In most cases, the law is from a one-way street to a one-way street.  The opposing street has no affect on that permission.

Scenario 2: https://goo.gl/maps/aqq4MwsnYLB2
A five-way intersection. You can go straight (one-way), right (two-way), left at a 45-degree angle onto Lighthouse (two-way), or left at a 90-degree angle onto Del Monte (one-way). If you look at the signal in the median of Lighthouse, there's a sign "TURN ON RED AFTER STOP". Can you turn left onto Del Monte (90-degree left) while the light is red?

The 45' movement is the 'straight' movement.  The 90' movement would be the only legal left turn on red here.

Actually, I'm a little surprised in both cases LTOR is permitted, but I guess as long as the turns can be made safely and properly, it's fine.

[coatimundi]

Scenario 1: https://goo.gl/maps/MFrkae1o9RB2
You are on a one-way street (behind you in this image). There's a one-way street crossing at the signal. However, the street in front of you is two-way, but approaching traffic can only turn right. Is left on red (from Tyler to Franklin) permitted?

Permitted.  In most cases, the law is from a one-way street to a one-way street.  The opposing street has no affect on that permission.

Scenario 2: https://goo.gl/maps/aqq4MwsnYLB2
A five-way intersection. You can go straight (one-way), right (two-way), left at a 45-degree angle onto Lighthouse (two-way), or left at a 90-degree angle onto Del Monte (one-way). If you look at the signal in the median of Lighthouse, there's a sign "TURN ON RED AFTER STOP". Can you turn left onto Del Monte (90-degree left) while the light is red?

The 45' movement is the 'straight' movement.  The 90' movement would be the only legal left turn on red here.

Actually, I'm a little surprised in both cases LTOR is permitted, but I guess as long as the turns can be made safely and properly, it's fine.

Okay, yes, that's exactly what the bus does, though I've noticed some drivers do not take the left in the second scenario.
In the case of the first one, I had always thought that left on red wasn't permitted if any street in the intersection was two-way, but I think that makes more sense.
The thing is with that second one: the bus can't really make a turn safely onto Del Monte without encroaching into the right lane of oncoming Lighthouse because it has to swing out. And, because that traffic is emerging from a tunnel, you can't really see them until they're racing up toward you (35mph through the tunnel, but no one follows that). Maybe it's just me, but seeing a bus coming right at me while emerging from that tunnel would scare the hell out of me.

[roadfro]

Scenario 1: https://goo.gl/maps/MFrkae1o9RB2
You are on a one-way street (behind you in this image). There's a one-way street crossing at the signal. However, the street in front of you is two-way, but approaching traffic can only turn right. Is left on red (from Tyler to Franklin) permitted?

Permitted.  In most cases, the law is from a one-way street to a one-way street.  The opposing street has no affect on that permission.

Agreed. The intersection of Center St & 1st St in downtown Reno is identical to this. I've taken the left on red here multiple times.

The thing to remember with this maneuver is that, similar to most RTOR laws, your LTOR requires you to turn from the leftmost lane into the leftmost lane. Thus, a driver in the opposing direction making a simultaneous RTOR turning the same direction as you can actually do so simultaneously, because you're both turning into different lanes.

Scenario 2: https://goo.gl/maps/aqq4MwsnYLB2
A five-way intersection. You can go straight (one-way), right (two-way), left at a 45-degree angle onto Lighthouse (two-way), or left at a 90-degree angle onto Del Monte (one-way). If you look at the signal in the median of Lighthouse, there's a sign "TURN ON RED AFTER STOP". Can you turn left onto Del Monte (90-degree left) while the light is red?

The 45' movement is the 'straight' movement.  The 90' movement would be the only legal left turn on red here.

Actually, I'm a little surprised in both cases LTOR is permitted, but I guess as long as the turns can be made safely and properly, it's fine.

I agree with this assessment as well. The true straight movement from this approach appears to be a non-issue for this location, with the functional "straight" movement being the 45° left. The 90° left onto Del Monte looks like it can be made by most vehicles, from the leftmost lane into the leftmost lane, without being affected by oncoming traffic. (With that said, I don't know if I'd take the left for sure without being there in person to better gauge the distances between my vehicle and any vehicles in that outer opposing left turn lane...)

[coatimundi]

There's also this, just a block away: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.5996754,-121.8926865,3a,75y,99.79h,77.81t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sMaVj_Ktd6PDApFhUdvHmxA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DMaVj_Ktd6PDApFhUdvHmxA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D66.327835%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

To the right (the cross street) is a two-way and to the left is a one-way. At the left corner, there's a sign: "Left Turn on Red OK After Stop". It seems like, by definition, this is allowed in California, since the law states that you can only make a left on red "into" a one-way street, which this is. It just, again, goes against what I had always thought about left on red.

[doorknob60]

In Idaho, Oregon, and a few other places, you can turn left from a two way street onto a one way street.

An example you could do this is here:


Unfortunately, I never see people take advantage of this. Even though, in downtown areas, it can be easier to turn on red than on green at times due to oncoming traffic and pedestrians.

One big caveat in Idaho is that you cannot do this if there is a red arrow, only if it is a red ball (as seen above). This is consistent with rules for right turns on red and left turns from one way to one way, so that's expected I suppose, but it removes some otherwise good opportunities that would be legal in Oregon.

[jakeroot]

One big caveat in Idaho is that you cannot do this if there is a red arrow, only if it is a red ball (as seen above). This is consistent with rules for right turns on red and left turns from one way to one way, so that's expected I suppose, but it removes some otherwise good opportunities that would be legal in Oregon.

Indeed, but unless you're lucky enough to be the first in line at a red left arrow, there's a 99% chance you're gonna have to wait for the green arrow anyway. I try and race ahead, where possible, so I can beat everyone else onto the freeway ramps (here being once place where I do it quite often), but thus far, my father is the only other person who I've witness take advantage of this law. My mother is not so keen on it. I try and explain to her that it's exactly the same thing as a right on red, in that you are still giving way to traffic, just from the right, and potentially in front of you, but she's still not quite ready to adopt it. She says it "doesn't feel right".

[Ace10]

^ I freaked my boyfriend out when I did a left-on-red onto a freeway onramp in Washington. He had never heard of the law, and when I tried explaining it to him 10 seconds after making that turn, he refused to believe me and thought I was making it up. I had to pull up the driver's manuals and RCW/ORS for both Oregon and Washington to show him, but even after that, he was super uncomfortable whenever I did it in the future.

Granted, I can see his point of view; there is certainly more risk for things to go wrong when making a left-on-red from a two-way to one-way. Not only do you have traffic from the right to which you have to yield, there is also opposing traffic you have to look out for, which may make a right turn on red, or whose lights may change to green while you're watching for a break in traffic to your right. Plus there may be pedestrians in the mix, who may not be following their respective walk/don't walk signals, especially if they think your red light is a guarantee you won't encroach upon the crosswalk to make your turn. There are more hazards demanding your attention at a situation like this, so there's more of a chance things may go wrong if not careful.

I've only seen two people make the left-on-red from a two-way to a one-way, so I think their people don't know they can do it, or are simply being cautious and not making the turn because they don't want to risk causing a collision. Even when I'm the lead car, there are instances where there simply isn't a sufficient break in traffic, but whenever there is, I make the turn every opportunity I can.

[corco]

In Idaho, Oregon, and a few other places, you can turn left from a two way street onto a one way street.

An example you could do this is here:


Unfortunately, I never see people take advantage of this. Even though, in downtown areas, it can be easier to turn on red than on green at times due to oncoming traffic and pedestrians.

One big caveat in Idaho is that you cannot do this if there is a red arrow, only if it is a red ball (as seen above). This is consistent with rules for right turns on red and left turns from one way to one way, so that's expected I suppose, but it removes some otherwise good opportunities that would be legal in Oregon.

I do this daily two blocks down at 10th and Main! I get  really weird looks from pedestrians when I do it. It seems to be a lost art. It really should be posted to remind people that it is legal at a few key intersections, such as Fort and 8th where there is no left turn lane and it'd clear the queue much faster to have those people turning left at the front of the line have an opportunity to do so before oncoming traffic gets the green (and traffic volumes are low enough on 8th to make this a safe maneuver most of the time). Besides my father, myself, and apparently you I don't know anybody that does it and haven't seen anybody do it in this go-around in Boise. I remember people doing it more frequently back in the 90s-early 00s when I lived here the first time. My Mom has lived in Idaho for 20 years now, but still doesn't feel right doing it.

I  recently actually was talking about this with the employees in charge of the signalization and stuff in Boise (because I deal with them regularly as part of my job), and not even they were aware that this is legal - as with everybody else in Boise these days, they are mostly imports from out of state.

That said, I drive around downtown Boise daily and it frustrates me how many people don't even know you can turn left on red from a one way onto a one way. Again - it clears the left lane a lot faster if they do so before the ped signal turns to walk in pedestrian-heavy downtown, but people don't realize they can.

[jakeroot]

Even when I'm the lead car, there are instances where there simply isn't a sufficient break in traffic, but whenever there is, I make the turn every opportunity I can.

I generally perform left turns on red in the same manner that I would perform a right on red. Stop...pull forward to the second, imaginary "limit" line (where you are past the stop line, but not so far forward that you encroach on those with the right-of-way), and then turn when safe.

If it's an example like I posted above, where the one way begins on the street that I'm on, and there's no one-way from my right, I will pull out (after a stop) in just the same way as I would turn at a permissive left, positioning my car in the junction somewhere past the stop line (in the case of the double left turn above, at a slight angle, because you can't pull straight into a double left turn).

For whatever it's worth, I have done this maneuver in front of an officer before (Tacoma police), and I was not stopped. I'm sure there were people in the cars, yelling at the cop to pull me over because I dared make a turn on red...but, nope! All legal folks.

[cl94]

That left on red stuff out west is weird. Really weird. Left on red is only allowed here between two one-way streets if not signed otherwise. Of course, not many people know that, because the one city in this state with a lot of one-way streets bans turns on red unless specifically allowed. Most of the legal lefts on red in New York are within a few blocks of my apartment in Troy, including two I can see from my building. I can think of 16 in this city off the top of my head.

[Ace10]

That left on red stuff out west is weird. Really weird.

I do find it interesting though that Alaska, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia all share the same law, and all of those states/provinces border each other or are at least in the same region. I have to wonder if the driving culture here developed kind of as a cohesive whole and the laws reflect the practices that just organically developed, or if somehow other states/provinces looked to their neighbors to see how they do things and just followed suit. (Michigan's the only other state with a similar law, but I leave it out since it's not in the Pacific Northwest region.)

The left-on-red from two-way to one-way is definitely a very unique thing here; I didn't find out about it until I pulled up the driver's manual in Washington out of sheer curiosity after I moved here. Actually, I think I looked up the law regarding turns on red arrows, since it's pretty much a tossup whether or not a state permits that movement. That's when I found out both Oregon and Washington are really liberal when it comes to turns on red. I really hope it stays that way.

[slorydn1]

Man I need to get out west more often. I never knew there was anywhere one could make a left turn on red. Doing it anywhere on this side of the country seems like it's just just one step below a death row offense, lol. After driving for 30 years I think I would be the guy y'all would be beeping at to make the turn because it is just so ingrained in me to not do it-I don't think I would have even noticed a sign telling me I could because I wouldn't have been looking for it-until now, that is!

[Ace10]

Man I need to get out west more often. I never knew there was anywhere one could make a left turn on red. Doing it anywhere on this side of the country seems like it's just just one step below a death row offense, lol. After driving for 30 years I think I would be the guy y'all would be beeping at to make the turn because it is just so ingrained in me to not do it-I don't think I would have even noticed a sign telling me I could because I wouldn't have been looking for it-until now, that is!

You're located in North Carolina? Just head to any state to the north, west, or south; they all permit a left-on-red from a one-way to another one-way. Most states permit that turn. Only a few, including NC, prohibit it altogether.

Left turn on red in countries with right hand traffic (turning across traffic) - Wikipedia (I helped work on the map)

[slorydn1]

Man I need to get out west more often. I never knew there was anywhere one could make a left turn on red. Doing it anywhere on this side of the country seems like it's just just one step below a death row offense, lol. After driving for 30 years I think I would be the guy y'all would be beeping at to make the turn because it is just so ingrained in me to not do it-I don't think I would have even noticed a sign telling me I could because I wouldn't have been looking for it-until now, that is!

You're located in North Carolina? Just head to any state to the north, west, or south; they all permit a left-on-red from a one-way to another one-way. Most states permit that turn. Only a few, including NC, prohibit it altogether.

Left turn on red in countries with right hand traffic (turning across traffic) - Wikipedia (I helped work on the map)

Wow, cool. Nope, I wasn't aware of any of this, and I started driving in Illinois in 1986. I didn't move here until 1991. I guess I just haven't been to too many places that had a one way to one way situation other than Chicago-and I didn't drive all that often in the city I usually used public transportation there.

Funny that the state that makes you go past an intersection to make a U-turn, come back and then make a right turn when a simple left turn under a green arrow would have been sooo much easier is one of the more permissive states on LTOR (I'm looking squarely at you, Michigan).

[KEK Inc.]

My understanding of the left on red scenario is that you're hugging a curb, just like a right on red in most intersections.

[jakeroot]

My understanding of the left on red scenario is that you're hugging a curb, just like a right on red in most intersections.

Yes, for one-way to one-way. Not two-way to one-way, though.

[myosh_tino]

That left on red stuff out west is weird. Really weird.

I do find it interesting though that Alaska, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia all share the same law, and all of those states/provinces border each other or are at least in the same region. I have to wonder if the driving culture here developed kind of as a cohesive whole and the laws reflect the practices that just organically developed, or if somehow other states/provinces looked to their neighbors to see how they do things and just followed suit.

But once you head south into California, any turn against a red arrow is a big no-no.

I wonder how many PacNW drivers make that mistake when visiting California (or other states for that matter)?  What would you say to the officer if pulled over?

[coatimundi]

(With that said, I don't know if I'd take the left for sure without being there in person to better gauge the distances between my vehicle and any vehicles in that outer opposing left turn lane...)

For the five-way intersection, the bus is really careful about this turn, and typically does not take it if there's anyone coming up in the oncoming right lane of Lighthouse. From my vantage point, it looks like the bus encroaches into that lane when turning, but I can't know for sure without standing outside and looking, of course.
The curb doesn't have a lot of angle there, so I would guess that it is actually encroaching but, even if it's not, it's probably too close for anyone's comfort.

Tucson has so few one-way streets but also never posted signs about left on reds being permitted when there were situations where it was permitted. Probably as a result of that, I got honked at a couple of times for turning left on red there.

[jeffandnicole]

(With that said, I don't know if I'd take the left for sure without being there in person to better gauge the distances between my vehicle and any vehicles in that outer opposing left turn lane...)

For the five-way intersection, the bus is really careful about this turn, and typically does not take it if there's anyone coming up in the oncoming right lane of Lighthouse. From my vantage point, it looks like the bus encroaches into that lane when turning, but I can't know for sure without standing outside and looking, of course.
The curb doesn't have a lot of angle there, so I would guess that it is actually encroaching but, even if it's not, it's probably too close for anyone's comfort.

Tucson has so few one-way streets but also never posted signs about left on reds being permitted when there were situations where it was permitted. Probably as a result of that, I got honked at a couple of times for turning left on red there.

If it's a legal move, there's no reason to post signage. When signage is posted it's usually due to unusual circumstances.

[Brandon]

That left on red stuff out west is weird. Really weird.

I do find it interesting though that Alaska, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia all share the same law, and all of those states/provinces border each other or are at least in the same region. I have to wonder if the driving culture here developed kind of as a cohesive whole and the laws reflect the practices that just organically developed, or if somehow other states/provinces looked to their neighbors to see how they do things and just followed suit. (Michigan's the only other state with a similar law, but I leave it out since it's not in the Pacific Northwest region.)

The left-on-red from two-way to one-way is definitely a very unique thing here; I didn't find out about it until I pulled up the driver's manual in Washington out of sheer curiosity after I moved here. Actually, I think I looked up the law regarding turns on red arrows, since it's pretty much a tossup whether or not a state permits that movement. That's when I found out both Oregon and Washington are really liberal when it comes to turns on red. I really hope it stays that way.

Not quite as unique as you think.  Michigan has the same law.  And that's how I learned to drive, left on red from both a one-way and a two-way street to a one-way street.

[jakeroot]

That left on red stuff out west is weird. Really weird.

I do find it interesting though that Alaska, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia all share the same law, and all of those states/provinces border each other or are at least in the same region. I have to wonder if the driving culture here developed kind of as a cohesive whole and the laws reflect the practices that just organically developed, or if somehow other states/provinces looked to their neighbors to see how they do things and just followed suit. (Michigan's the only other state with a similar law, but I leave it out since it's not in the Pacific Northwest region.)

The left-on-red from two-way to one-way is definitely a very unique thing here; I didn't find out about it until I pulled up the driver's manual in Washington out of sheer curiosity after I moved here. Actually, I think I looked up the law regarding turns on red arrows, since it's pretty much a tossup whether or not a state permits that movement. That's when I found out both Oregon and Washington are really liberal when it comes to turns on red. I really hope it stays that way.

Not quite as unique as you think.  Michigan has the same law.  And that's how I learned to drive, left on red from both a one-way and a two-way street to a one-way street.

I think he knows this ^^^^^

[mrsman]

(With that said, I don't know if I'd take the left for sure without being there in person to better gauge the distances between my vehicle and any vehicles in that outer opposing left turn lane...)

For the five-way intersection, the bus is really careful about this turn, and typically does not take it if there's anyone coming up in the oncoming right lane of Lighthouse. From my vantage point, it looks like the bus encroaches into that lane when turning, but I can't know for sure without standing outside and looking, of course.
The curb doesn't have a lot of angle there, so I would guess that it is actually encroaching but, even if it's not, it's probably too close for anyone's comfort.

Tucson has so few one-way streets but also never posted signs about left on reds being permitted when there were situations where it was permitted. Probably as a result of that, I got honked at a couple of times for turning left on red there.

If it's a legal move, there's no reason to post signage. When signage is posted it's usually due to unusual circumstances.

A legal move in a minority of jurisdictions, but unusual in the vast majority of the country and the MUTCD.  And it becomes difficult to remember where one rule applies and one rule doesn't.  There is a benefit of having a uniform driving law across 50 states with exceptions CLEARLY* posted where warranted.

* And in my view one sign at the city limits is not enough.  If NYC wants a different law on NTOR than the rest of the country, they need a sign posted at every signalized intersection.

[cl94]

(With that said, I don't know if I'd take the left for sure without being there in person to better gauge the distances between my vehicle and any vehicles in that outer opposing left turn lane...)

For the five-way intersection, the bus is really careful about this turn, and typically does not take it if there's anyone coming up in the oncoming right lane of Lighthouse. From my vantage point, it looks like the bus encroaches into that lane when turning, but I can't know for sure without standing outside and looking, of course.
The curb doesn't have a lot of angle there, so I would guess that it is actually encroaching but, even if it's not, it's probably too close for anyone's comfort.

Tucson has so few one-way streets but also never posted signs about left on reds being permitted when there were situations where it was permitted. Probably as a result of that, I got honked at a couple of times for turning left on red there.

If it's a legal move, there's no reason to post signage. When signage is posted it's usually due to unusual circumstances.

A legal move in a minority of jurisdictions, but unusual in the vast majority of the country and the MUTCD.  And it becomes difficult to remember where one rule applies and one rule doesn't.  There is a benefit of having a uniform driving law across 50 states with exceptions CLEARLY* posted where warranted.

* And in my view one sign at the city limits is not enough.  If NYC wants a different law on NTOR than the rest of the country, they need a sign posted at every signalized intersection.

It's a state law. Turns on red banned unless specifically allowed in municipalities over a certain size.