So I was taking a look at Google Maps again, and I noticed that in 2007, on an Illinois state highway, signals colored yellow on the side facing traffic were put into operation in Taylorville for a brief while. Illinois nearly exclusively uses signals with black fronts facing the traffic, similar to the other ones in the intersection.
The yellow signals no longer stand, but here they are:
https://goo.gl/maps/Dc2r6voWT2UUh5jz9
Are there any other examples of your DOT or highway department committing practices that almost never occur in your state?
For California, the obvious thing that we rarely do that almost all states do in comparison: external exit tabs!
The 1971-era Los Angeles ones are centered external button copy tabs:
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_002c_03.jpg)
Ca. 2009 there was a briefly installed one at the San Bernardino Split on US 101/Santa Ana Freeway south at I-10/San Bernardino Freeway east, which has since been removed and replaced with an internal-tab sign.
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001e_02a.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001d_02.jpg)
2017-present with internal tabs
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0534512,-118.23187,3a,31.8y,100.85h,95.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sbFZRLVUb__9bBfU5_kCHpQ!2e0!5s20170601T000000!7i16384!8i8192
The internally tabbed sign here was installed after 2017 according to Google Street View
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0526611,-118.2267722,3a,75y,100.85h,95.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1ssdhcaFF52qyIFXPEUC4OjQ!2e0!5s20201201T000000!7i16384!8i8192
Another 2009-era external tab nearby, at the Alameda Street exit:
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_002a_03a.jpg)
This was inexplicably removed around 2017!
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0544679,-118.2386127,3a,75y,121.69h,90.73t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_0rH6UWsm3G7VBMgcyH2ow!2e0!5s20170601T000000!7i13312!8i6656
There's a whole thread on a new installation external tab in Orange County:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29046.msg2617046#msg2617046
(https://i.imgur.com/OiOmu2W.jpg)
Yield lines (sawtooth) in Wisconsin: https://goo.gl/maps/hPr4D6AuVFmYfgat7
"Next 3 exits" signage (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0084183,-82.9859309,3a,55.5y,317.75h,100.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ss9nW7GFi-FfaECD94errZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in Ohio. I think District 6 (Columbus) is the only one in the state that does that.
"End" signs in Kentucky are really rare.
Similarly, "JCT" plates in Virginia.
- North Carolina rarely uses "NO PASSING ZONE" pennants, and locally maintained road surfaces are not very common.
- Many of our roads lack shoulders.
- Outside of a handful of situations like multi-lane highways with steep grades and curves, NCDOT doesn't use 40 foot RRPMs, only 80 foot. I wish they would use 40 foot, though.
- The markings of merges varies by district. Some will do the thing where the merge is marked with dashed lines throughout (I think D12 does this, not sure of any others) while others will mark it with solid lines throughout.
Route markers painted/applied to the pavement is something Georgia never did until about 8 years ago. Georgia still doesn't use them regularly (compared to e.g. TX, OH, NC), and I don't think I've seen them outside the Atlanta area.
4(+) Level Stack Interchanges are really rare in Illinois...like non-existent rare
The obvious answer for Québec would be to put English on the road signs, but there are exceptions. For instance, Pont Champlain and Pont Jacques-Cartier has bilingual signage because they're maintained by the federal government. Also, some communities with more English speakers (especially in the Eastern Townships) will have their signs in either both languages or only English (though the trend is to be bilingual).
Quote from: LilianaUwU on August 06, 2021, 11:11:21 PM
The obvious answer for Québec would be to put English on the road signs, but there are exceptions. For instance, Pont Champlain and Pont Jacques-Cartier has bilingual signage because they're maintained by the federal government. Also, some communities with more English speakers (especially in the Eastern Townships) will have their signs in either both languages or only English (though the trend is to be bilingual).
Out here in BC, it is the opposite: no French on signs. But there are hardly any French speakers out this way.
Why does Quebec not use bilingual signs? Aren't about half of the Québécois able to speak English? Never mind all those travelling through.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2021, 11:46:30 PM
Why does Quebec not use bilingual signs? Aren't about half of the Québécois able to speak English? Never mind all those travelling through.
Many of the signs are picture-only or use words that mean the same in both languages (e.g. maximum 90).
Lawrence, MA doesn't have road signs in Spanish, and as far as I know, neither does the Rio Grande Valley or South Florida.
Quote from: 1 on August 07, 2021, 06:30:46 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2021, 11:46:30 PM
Why does Quebec not use bilingual signs? Aren't about half of the Québécois able to speak English? Never mind all those travelling through.
Many of the signs are picture-only or use words that mean the same in both languages (e.g. maximum 90).
Lawrence, MA doesn't have road signs in Spanish, and as far as I know, neither does the Rio Grande Valley or South Florida.
The symbols are great, it's just that nearby provinces use bilingual signs so it would seem logical for Quebec to as well.
The difference is that, if any of those places were, say, a state in Mexico, even with all of the English speakers, you'd likely see Spanish on the road signs. But not Quebec.
I know that the answer to my question is "PQ", but I like to poke at Quebec. :-D
Take this assembly of signs and traffic signals.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48298766287_d4ae15f37e_k.jpg)
Top sign: obvious, due to cognates
Traffic signals: same as in the US; while "BUS" isn't used on signals in the US, it's clear what it's referring to
Green circle sign: the non-intuitive meaning of mandatory instead of permitted applies in all of Canada and is not a language-specific issue
Orange construction sign: it might not be visible from this photo, but the sidewalk is closed, and even if you can't read French, it's clear that that's what the sign is referring to
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48298651596_1e99af95b5_k.jpg)
Times: obvious, as long as you can read 24-hour time. Days: you need knowledge of one Romance language, but it doesn't have to be French due to cognates.
The 24 hour is fine, since that's common even in the US (at least around military bases) and almost all of Canada apart from BC, and the green circle signs are fine even though mostly in BC it's just common to have the "no" version.
The "Lun à Ven" sign is lost on me. I have to assume Monday to Friday since restrictions normally apply those days. Still, the same sign in Ontario would have both languages.
The orange construction sign is complete gibberish to me. I have no clue. "Sidewalk Closed" should be black-on-white. Why not a picture of a sidewalk with a "no" symbol over it, and an arrow pointing towards a crosswalk?
(edit: black on white, not the other way round)
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2021, 11:47:10 AM
The orange construction sign is complete gibberish to me. I have no clue. "Sidewalk Closed" should be black-on-white. Why not a picture of a sidewalk with a "no" symbol over it, and an arrow pointing towards a crosswalk?
To be fair, only the "Trottoir barré" sign is standard... the usual sign is way less wordy and just says "Use the other sidewalk".
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rsr.transports.gouv.qc.ca%2FGestionnaires%2FObtenirImage.ashx%3FimgId%3D14181&hash=13e4b38728a566b4b5045e3079cdac4a021fb572)
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2021, 11:24:04 AM
I know that the answer to my question is "PQ", but I like to poke at Quebec. :-D
I find the use of that provincial abbreviation Particularly Questionable.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 07, 2021, 12:41:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2021, 11:24:04 AM
I know that the answer to my question is "PQ", but I like to poke at Quebec. :-D
I find the use of that provincial abbreviation Particularly Questionable.
It stands for "Province de Québec", but it's obsolete now, as QC is mostly used now instead. I guess it's a combination of the Parti québécois (the separatist party) using it and the fact that "PQ" is used in France to designate toilet paper.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2021, 11:47:10 AM
The orange construction sign is complete gibberish to me. I have no clue. "Sidewalk Closed" should be black-on-white. Why not a picture of a sidewalk with a "no" symbol over it, and an arrow pointing towards a crosswalk?
(edit: black on white, not the other way round)
I have never studied French, and only 2 years of HS Spanish and being around native speakers of Spanish for periods of my life, but the French word "Trottoir" clearly is the same root word as the English word "trot" - basically, a trotway, or walkway - not far fetched from sidewalk
Not sure what "Pietons" is but "utilisez" is a cognate to English utilize...pretty sure that sign says Please/Pedestrians (depending on Pietons) utilize the sidewalk on the other side
French readers/speakers, if I'm way off the mark, let me know
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 07, 2021, 12:46:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2021, 11:47:10 AM
The orange construction sign is complete gibberish to me. I have no clue. "Sidewalk Closed" should be black-on-white. Why not a picture of a sidewalk with a "no" symbol over it, and an arrow pointing towards a crosswalk?
(edit: black on white, not the other way round)
I have never studied French, and only 2 years of HS Spanish and being around native speakers of Spanish for periods of my life, but the French word "Trottoir" clearly is the same root word as the English word "trot" - basically, a trotway, or walkway - not far fetched from sidewalk
Not sure what "Pietons" is but "utilisez" is a cognate to English utilize...pretty sure that sign says Please/Pedestrians (depending on Pietons) utilize the sidewalk on the other side
French readers/speakers, if I'm way off the mark, let me know
Yes, the sign translates to "Pedestrians, use the sidewalk on the other side". "Piétons" is "pedestrians", and bonus info: "s'il vous plaît" is "please".
Quote from: LilianaUwU on August 07, 2021, 12:44:02 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 07, 2021, 12:41:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2021, 11:24:04 AM
I know that the answer to my question is "PQ", but I like to poke at Quebec. :-D
I find the use of that provincial abbreviation Particularly Questionable.
It stands for "Province de Québec", but it's obsolete now, as QC is mostly used now instead. I guess it's a combination of the Parti québécois (the separatist party) using it and the fact that "PQ" is used in France to designate toilet paper.
In my context, I was using it to refer to Parti Québécois, who I believe began to institute the "no English" rules in the 70s.
The result of some brief Googling...
Ontario: About 11.5% bilingual, ~0.4% French-only; bilingual road signs everywhere
Quebec: About 50% bilingual, ~4.5% English-only; virtually no English apart from high-English concentrations
I just find that odd. Quebec absolutely needs French for the sake of its population, but French mandates elsewhere strike me as unnecessary.
edit:
Here's my take on a symbolic "no pedestrians, cross here" sign, for what it's worth:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51363360166_246ea423ec_o.png)
Pedestrians Cross Here (https://flic.kr/p/2mfNDvh) by Jacob Root (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62537709@N03/), on Flickr
It's worth noting that Ontario is not officially bilingual and French road signs are hardly "everywhere". They post then in areas designated for French language services, which includes the entire Ottawa area. Such areas are designated when a certain amount of the local population speaks French.
New Brunswick is the only province that's officially bilingual. Québec is French and all the others are English.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2021, 01:20:30 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on August 07, 2021, 12:44:02 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on August 07, 2021, 12:41:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2021, 11:24:04 AM
I know that the answer to my question is "PQ", but I like to poke at Quebec. :-D
I find the use of that provincial abbreviation Particularly Questionable.
It stands for "Province de Québec", but it's obsolete now, as QC is mostly used now instead. I guess it's a combination of the Parti québécois (the separatist party) using it and the fact that "PQ" is used in France to designate toilet paper.
In my context, I was using it to refer to Parti Québécois, who I believe began to institute the "no English" rules in the 70s.
The result of some brief Googling...
Ontario: About 11.5% bilingual, ~0.4% French-only; bilingual road signs everywhere
Quebec: About 50% bilingual, ~4.5% English-only; virtually no English apart from high-English concentrations
I just find that odd. Quebec absolutely needs French for the sake of its population, but French mandates elsewhere strike me as unnecessary.
edit:
Here's my take on a symbolic "no pedestrians, cross here" sign, for what it's worth:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51363360166_246ea423ec_o.png)
Pedestrians Cross Here (https://flic.kr/p/2mfNDvh) by Jacob Root (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62537709@N03/), on Flickr
Given the above, it would make sense to have more bilingual signs in Quebec. Certainly for the more wordy examples where it isn't obvious.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2021, 11:46:30 PM
Why does Quebec not use bilingual signs? Aren't about half of the Québécois able to speak English? Never mind all those travelling through.
Quebec is a french province. While plenty of residents can speak english, french is the first language for at least 80 percent of Quebecers. There are many places in the US with a lower percentage of native english speakers, but bilingual road signs are not standard or common in the US. People put a double standard on Quebec just because it's different from the rest of North America, but they have every right to preserve their language.
Back on topic:
Minnesota: route numbers on pavement (one of the examples is northbound US 52 at I-94 where there are three different exits)
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on August 08, 2021, 03:24:24 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2021, 11:46:30 PM
Why does Quebec not use bilingual signs? Aren't about half of the Québécois able to speak English? Never mind all those travelling through.
Quebec is a french province. While plenty of residents can speak english, french is the first language for at least 80 percent of Quebecers. There are many places in the US with a lower percentage of native english speakers, but bilingual road signs are not standard or common in the US. People put a double standard on Quebec just because it's different from the rest of North America, but they have every right to preserve their language.
But Canada requires double language signage everywhere else, it seems.
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 08:15:36 AM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on August 08, 2021, 03:24:24 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2021, 11:46:30 PM
Why does Quebec not use bilingual signs? Aren't about half of the Québécois able to speak English? Never mind all those travelling through.
Quebec is a french province. While plenty of residents can speak english, french is the first language for at least 80 percent of Quebecers. There are many places in the US with a lower percentage of native english speakers, but bilingual road signs are not standard or common in the US. People put a double standard on Quebec just because it's different from the rest of North America, but they have every right to preserve their language.
But Canada requires double language signage everywhere else, it seems.
Perhaps not everywhere, but you definitely see the directionals on highways in Ontrario as
North/Nord
South/Sud
East/Est
West/Ouest
and
Exit/Sortie
I don't see the point of this, as these words are easy enough that people can probably get without the need for translation. I actually consider using both words to be more distracting than just using one or the other. And I don't speak French.
So I probably won't freak out if I see Autoroute 20 Ouest, the same way that French Canadians shouldn't have a problem with ON-401 West.
Now for some of the longer statements, yeah, I think a translation would be helpful, especially in the Montreal or Quebec City area that has significant Anglo areas as well as significant tourists. So the wordy sign about the sidewalk being closed should be translated in English. But the "excepte autobus" should be readily understandable to English speakers without the need for a translation.
Or perhaps Canada needs to adopt more European signage. The signage there says suprisingly alot with just the use of pictures.
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 08:15:36 AM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on August 08, 2021, 03:24:24 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2021, 11:46:30 PM
Why does Quebec not use bilingual signs? Aren't about half of the Québécois able to speak English? Never mind all those travelling through.
Quebec is a french province. While plenty of residents can speak english, french is the first language for at least 80 percent of Quebecers. There are many places in the US with a lower percentage of native english speakers, but bilingual road signs are not standard or common in the US. People put a double standard on Quebec just because it's different from the rest of North America, but they have every right to preserve their language.
But Canada requires double language signage everywhere else, it seems.
Anything posted by the Canadian federal government will be in both languages, regardless of where you are in Canada. Anything else may vary, although as vdeane noted, in New Brunswick you'll normally see both languages on signs posted by the province.
I believe typically federal facilities, including national parks, will normally have at least some bilingual staff if possible. I remember the first time I visited the Fortress of Louisbourg in August 1982 the man at the entrance asked us, in both languages, whether we spoke English or French.
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 06, 2021, 09:13:45 PM
4(+) Level Stack Interchanges are really rare in Illinois...like non-existent rare
Same in Ontario, there's only one in the whole province.
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 08:15:36 AM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on August 08, 2021, 03:24:24 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2021, 11:46:30 PM
Why does Quebec not use bilingual signs? Aren't about half of the Québécois able to speak English? Never mind all those travelling through.
Quebec is a french province. While plenty of residents can speak english, french is the first language for at least 80 percent of Quebecers. There are many places in the US with a lower percentage of native english speakers, but bilingual road signs are not standard or common in the US. People put a double standard on Quebec just because it's different from the rest of North America, but they have every right to preserve their language.
But Canada requires double language signage everywhere else, it seems.
Only officially bilingual jurisdictions will have bilingual signs. This means any federal institution (even out West, where nobody speaks French), and New Brunswick. In Ontario, bilingual signs are only posted in large numbers particularly in Ottawa and other places with large French populations. In Toronto, you only see some French on provincial freeways, and it's absolutely inconsistent.
Quebec is not bilingual, therefore the province does not post bilingual signs. (except for "radar detectors prohibited" and other very important signs).
I thought Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island had bilingual signs.
Quote from: andrepoiy on August 08, 2021, 06:23:52 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on August 06, 2021, 09:13:45 PM
4(+) Level Stack Interchanges are really rare in Illinois...like non-existent rare
Same in Ontario, there's only one in the whole province.
No wonder I felt so at home there the last time I visited.
Quote from: 1 on August 08, 2021, 07:02:41 PM
I thought Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island had bilingual signs.
You see them in a few places, but not for the most part. I can think of a few bilingual signs in Nova Scotia that are not federally-installed (IIRC, the sign on the Cabot Trail about the elevation change over Smokey Mountain is bilingual, and some of the welcome signs for Cape Breton Island are as well).
I do know that Nova Scotia has English and Gaelic bilingual signs in some areas
Quote from: andrepoiy on August 08, 2021, 06:46:03 PM
Quebec is not bilingual, therefore the province does not post bilingual signs. (except for "radar detectors prohibited" and other very important signs).
Officially. But practically, they are absolutely bilingual. In fact, I would argue that Quebec is easily the most bilingual province in Canada. I think about half the population can speak French and English. Does any other province come close to that (any language combination)?
Quote from: andrepoiy on August 08, 2021, 06:46:03 PM
In Ontario, bilingual signs are only posted in large numbers particularly in Ottawa and other places with large French populations. In Toronto, you only see some French on provincial freeways, and it's absolutely inconsistent.
Not sure that's quite right. On the recent 401 extension through Windsor, French is on all the road signs. Including the speed limits signs ("BEGINS/DEBUT"): https://goo.gl/maps/1mCzZWc5oFZNPzZD9 -- Am I to believe there is a large French-only population in Windsor?
Quote from: jakeroot on August 08, 2021, 09:22:15 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on August 08, 2021, 06:46:03 PM
Quebec is not bilingual, therefore the province does not post bilingual signs. (except for "radar detectors prohibited" and other very important signs).
Officially. But practically, they are absolutely bilingual. In fact, I would argue that Quebec is easily the most bilingual province in Canada. I think about half the population can speak French and English. Does any other province come close to that (any language combination)?
Sure, even if the province is 50% bilingual, I'd say that the bilingual population is not uniformly spread. A large number of the bilingual population resides in the Montreal area, and Montreal has a significant percentage of Quebec's population. However, outside of Montreal, a lot of people are simply not comfortable with English even if they do consider themselves bilingual.
Quote
Quote from: andrepoiy on August 08, 2021, 06:46:03 PM
In Ontario, bilingual signs are only posted in large numbers particularly in Ottawa and other places with large French populations. In Toronto, you only see some French on provincial freeways, and it's absolutely inconsistent.
Not sure that's quite right. On the recent 401 extension through Windsor, French is on all the road signs. Including the speed limits signs ("BEGINS/DEBUT"): https://goo.gl/maps/1mCzZWc5oFZNPzZD9 -- Am I to believe there is a large French-only population in Windsor?
Interesting. The newest completed and open Toronto-area project is the 407 East, which opened in 2018, and I see little French on that one. It also opened after the HGB 401 Extension, which was completed in 2015.
(https://i.imgur.com/a8zKCox.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/L4btPvV.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/WctTpQi.png)
Right now, there's also one that's largely finished but still hasn't opened, with is the Highway 427 extension. I have linked the project website's gallery, where you can take a look at pictures taken. If you see the signs, some have French, some do not.
https://427expansion.ca/about-link-427/photo-gallery/
This is why I say it's inconsistent.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 08, 2021, 09:22:15 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on August 08, 2021, 06:46:03 PM
Quebec is not bilingual, therefore the province does not post bilingual signs. (except for "radar detectors prohibited" and other very important signs).
Officially. But practically, they are absolutely bilingual. In fact, I would argue that Quebec is easily the most bilingual province in Canada. I think about half the population can speak French and English. Does any other province come close to that (any language combination)?
Quebec made a very deliberate choice in the 1970s that French would be the only official language. To this day proposals to strengthen the language law (which requires french to be the sole/predominant language in the province) are approved by a large majority of Quebecers. Just because many Quebecers *can* speak English does not change the fact that a substantial majority of them would conduct all of their business in French if given the choice.
Also, in my opinion, bilingual signage often looks cluttered and is less legible. You really do not need a high level of French education to understand basic road signage, I only took high school French and it's more than adequate to understand what all of the signs in Quebec mean.
And this is coming from someone from a family of Anglo Quebecers. The same way someone shouldn't come to America and expect to be accomodated in a language other than English, you shouldn't come to Quebec and expect to be accomodated in a language other than French (although in my experience, Quebecers are much more helpful to English speakers than other Americans or Canadians are towards French speakers).
Here's some info on bilingual signs in Ontario from the Ministry of Transportation (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/signs/bilingual-signs.shtml)
It looks like bilingual signs are supposed to be posted on provincial highways if the highway is in a designated area under the French Language Services Act.
The French Language Services Act is intended to ensure that French speakers can access provincial government services in French if they live in an area with a significant number of French speakers. An urban area only needs to have 5,000 French speakers to be designated, so Toronto, where 0.1% of the population can only speak French and 7.9% are bilingual, qualifies under the Act. Therefore, a provincial highway in Toronto is required to have bilingual signs (I'm not sure how strictly followed that is), while municipalities are exempt from the act and are free to post unilingual English signs on municipal roads, as Toronto does. The Highway 407 extension, despite being a provincial highway, is in Pickering which is not designated under the Act, explaining the unilingual English signs there.
TL;DR: Bilingual signs aren't necessarily posted in Ontario because the MTO thinks they're useful, they're just complying with another law and are happy to post English-only signs when they don't have to.
Quote from: bcroadguy on August 09, 2021, 06:35:47 AM
Here's some info on bilingual signs in Ontario from the Ministry of Transportation (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/signs/bilingual-signs.shtml)
It looks like bilingual signs are supposed to be posted on provincial highways if the highway is in a designated area under the French Language Services Act.
The French Language Services Act is intended to ensure that French speakers can access provincial government services in French if they live in an area with a significant number of French speakers. An urban area only needs to have 5,000 French speakers to be designated, so Toronto, where 0.1% of the population can only speak French and 7.9% are bilingual, qualifies under the Act. Therefore, a provincial highway in Toronto is required to have bilingual signs (I'm not sure how strictly followed that is), while municipalities are exempt from the act and are free to post unilingual English signs on municipal roads, as Toronto does. The Highway 407 extension, despite being a provincial highway, is in Pickering which is not designated under the Act, explaining the unilingual English signs there.
TL;DR: Bilingual signs aren't necessarily posted in Ontario because the MTO thinks they're useful, they're just complying with another law and are happy to post English-only signs when they don't have to.
Thanks for that. I didn't know the Act also affected provincial road signs.
If I'm not mistaken, the law in PEI is to have bilingual signage due to the heavy traffic to/from the Magdalen Islands ferry in Souris and the rest of Québec (via NB). Ironically, such a trip before bilingual signage was widespread is what led me to learn English.
Quote from: bcroadguy on August 09, 2021, 06:35:47 AM
Here's some info on bilingual signs in Ontario from the Ministry of Transportation (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/signs/bilingual-signs.shtml)
It looks like bilingual signs are supposed to be posted on provincial highways if the highway is in a designated area under the French Language Services Act.
The French Language Services Act is intended to ensure that French speakers can access provincial government services in French if they live in an area with a significant number of French speakers. An urban area only needs to have 5,000 French speakers to be designated, so Toronto, where 0.1% of the population can only speak French and 7.9% are bilingual, qualifies under the Act. Therefore, a provincial highway in Toronto is required to have bilingual signs (I'm not sure how strictly followed that is), while municipalities are exempt from the act and are free to post unilingual English signs on municipal roads, as Toronto does. The Highway 407 extension, despite being a provincial highway, is in Pickering which is not designated under the Act, explaining the unilingual English signs there.
TL;DR: Bilingual signs aren't necessarily posted in Ontario because the MTO thinks they're useful, they're just complying with another law and are happy to post English-only signs when they don't have to.
And, sure enough, the City of Windsor is one of the municipalities designated for French services.
https://files.ontario.ca/ofa_designated_areas_map_en.pdf
The question shouldn't be how many people in Quebec are bilingual. The question should be how many people in Quebec don't understand French. Because bilingual signs only matter if the driver doesn't understand the dominant language.
Quote from: bcroadguy on August 09, 2021, 06:35:47 AM
Here's some info on bilingual signs in Ontario from the Ministry of Transportation (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/signs/bilingual-signs.shtml)
It looks like bilingual signs are supposed to be posted on provincial highways if the highway is in a designated area under the French Language Services Act.
The French Language Services Act is intended to ensure that French speakers can access provincial government services in French if they live in an area with a significant number of French speakers. An urban area only needs to have 5,000 French speakers to be designated, so Toronto, where 0.1% of the population can only speak French and 7.9% are bilingual, qualifies under the Act. Therefore, a provincial highway in Toronto is required to have bilingual signs (I'm not sure how strictly followed that is), while municipalities are exempt from the act and are free to post unilingual English signs on municipal roads, as Toronto does. The Highway 407 extension, despite being a provincial highway, is in Pickering which is not designated under the Act, explaining the unilingual English signs there.
TL;DR: Bilingual signs aren't necessarily posted in Ontario because the MTO thinks they're useful, they're just complying with another law and are happy to post English-only signs when they don't have to.
This is very helpful info. Thanks.
I read a little further and this is basically a provincial level act in the province of Ontario, not based on national Canadian law. So French signs will exist in areas with significant French speakers in Ontario. There is no equivalent rqmt in Quebec to put up English signs anywhere, even in Montreal which probably has significant English speakers.
Here's a qn for Canadians:
Do the different Candian driver license tests require knowledge of road signs in both French and English?
In the US, of course, all of the road signs are in English or pictogram. To have a driver's license in the US, you need to know what those road signs mean, even if you don't otherwise speak English. Many states provide drivers handbooks and even the driving test itself in multiple languages. I wonder if there is a base language requirement for Canadians that have to be familiar enough with both some English and French to decipher the most common traffic signs.
The winner for Texas has to be "END" shields.
Quote from: mrsman on August 10, 2021, 03:47:56 PM
In the US, of course, all of the road signs are in English or pictogram.
https://goo.gl/maps/vxYZWFQSMNm1eM898 :sombrero:
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 04:11:57 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 10, 2021, 03:47:56 PM
In the US, of course, all of the road signs are in English or pictogram.
https://goo.gl/maps/vxYZWFQSMNm1eM898 :sombrero:
Que lastima
Quote from: mrsman on August 10, 2021, 03:47:56 PM
Here's a qn for Canadians:
Do the different Candian driver license tests require knowledge of road signs in both French and English?
In Ontario, no. In fact, our written test can be written in various languages other than English or French. It may even be easier than the US test due to the larger number of pictogram signs vs written signs.
The only place I've ever seen this is in London, but I think it makes a lot of sense -- painted in the street is an indication which way to look for traffic at a crosswalk. Really comes in handy in an area with lots of one-way streets.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4975027,-0.1354275,3a,51.5y,348.44h,64.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgOICTwT16Z3sRMvAJeWqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4975027,-0.1354275,3a,51.5y,348.44h,64.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgOICTwT16Z3sRMvAJeWqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 04:15:37 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 10, 2021, 04:13:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 04:11:57 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 10, 2021, 03:47:56 PM
In the US, of course, all of the road signs are in English or pictogram.
https://goo.gl/maps/vxYZWFQSMNm1eM898 :sombrero:
Que lastima
What's a pity?
If you read the comments in order, mrsman stated all US signs are in English. You debunked that. I went with the Bumble Bee Guy quote from The Simpsons. Sounded funnier in my head.
Quote from: rlb2024 on August 10, 2021, 04:18:20 PM
The only place I've ever seen this is in London, but I think it makes a lot of sense -- painted in the street is an indication which way to look for traffic at a crosswalk. Really comes in handy in an area with lots of one-way streets.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4975027,-0.1354275,3a,51.5y,348.44h,64.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgOICTwT16Z3sRMvAJeWqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4975027,-0.1354275,3a,51.5y,348.44h,64.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgOICTwT16Z3sRMvAJeWqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I have seen it somewhere in the US. I don't remember where though.
Quote from: rlb2024 on August 10, 2021, 04:18:20 PM
The only place I've ever seen this is in London, but I think it makes a lot of sense -- painted in the street is an indication which way to look for traffic at a crosswalk. Really comes in handy in an area with lots of one-way streets.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4975027,-0.1354275,3a,51.5y,348.44h,64.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgOICTwT16Z3sRMvAJeWqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4975027,-0.1354275,3a,51.5y,348.44h,64.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgOICTwT16Z3sRMvAJeWqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
That is actually pretty common in Hong Kong
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 10, 2021, 04:22:50 PM
I went with the Bumble Bee Guy quote from The Simpsons. Sounded funnier in my head.
¡Qué lástima!
Quote from: mrsman on August 10, 2021, 03:47:56 PM
....
In the US, of course, all of the road signs are in English or pictogram. ....
https://goo.gl/maps/drJKqrynrUQAYn3e7
https://goo.gl/maps/mzV1knLLVtGzLyWg7
Well, heck, if we're still going...
https://goo.gl/maps/f8cZHkRpGzDdasTa9
(Note that all of the examples I've linked to so far also have English-language equivalents posted.)
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 04:32:19 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 10, 2021, 04:22:50 PM
I went with the Bumble Bee Guy quote from The Simpsons. Sounded funnier in my head.
¡Qué lástima!
Fair enough. English keyboard.
Quote from: andrepoiy on August 10, 2021, 04:16:15 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 10, 2021, 03:47:56 PM
Here's a qn for Canadians:
Do the different Candian driver license tests require knowledge of road signs in both French and English?
In Ontario, no. In fact, our written test can be written in various languages other than English or French. It may even be easier than the US test due to the larger number of pictogram signs vs written signs.
That's not quite what he asked. Here in Washington State, we can take our drivers license exam in just about any language, but the test requires some knowledge of the English language due to certain road signs being just text. Does the Ontario exam require the test-taker to understand English or French? Or does the test not involve any comprehension of textual road signage?
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 04:11:57 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 10, 2021, 03:47:56 PM
In the US, of course, all of the road signs are in English or pictogram.
https://goo.gl/maps/vxYZWFQSMNm1eM898 :sombrero:
I thought that might have been one of the signs in Cherokee. I guess the sombrero should have given me a hint.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 10, 2021, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 04:32:19 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 10, 2021, 04:22:50 PM
I went with the Bumble Bee Guy quote from The Simpsons. Sounded funnier in my head.
¡Qué lástima!
Fair enough. English keyboard.
I'm not using a foreign keyboard either.
But, anyway, my point was that it's a shame it sounded funnier in your head.
In other words, *whoosh* . . .
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 08:03:27 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 10, 2021, 05:18:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 04:32:19 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 10, 2021, 04:22:50 PM
I went with the Bumble Bee Guy quote from The Simpsons. Sounded funnier in my head.
¡Qué lástima!
Fair enough. English keyboard.
I'm not using a foreign keyboard either.
But, anyway, my point was that it's a shame it sounded funnier in your head.
In other words, *whoosh* . . .
Damnit. Looks like i messed the joke there too. For shame...Qué lástima.
Quote from: andrepoiy on August 10, 2021, 04:28:16 PM
Quote from: rlb2024 on August 10, 2021, 04:18:20 PM
The only place I've ever seen this is in London, but I think it makes a lot of sense -- painted in the street is an indication which way to look for traffic at a crosswalk. Really comes in handy in an area with lots of one-way streets.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4975027,-0.1354275,3a,51.5y,348.44h,64.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgOICTwT16Z3sRMvAJeWqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4975027,-0.1354275,3a,51.5y,348.44h,64.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgOICTwT16Z3sRMvAJeWqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
That is actually pretty common in Hong Kong
That makes sense as HK was a British colony for most of the 20th century.
Quote from: rlb2024 on August 10, 2021, 04:18:20 PM
The only place I've ever seen this is in London, but I think it makes a lot of sense -- painted in the street is an indication which way to look for traffic at a crosswalk. Really comes in handy in an area with lots of one-way streets.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4975027,-0.1354275,3a,51.5y,348.44h,64.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgOICTwT16Z3sRMvAJeWqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4975027,-0.1354275,3a,51.5y,348.44h,64.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgOICTwT16Z3sRMvAJeWqqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
That still scares me. Back in my college days, I was walking across the Drillfield at Virginia Tech and crossed the one-way loop (Drillfield Drive) only looking in the direction of traffic. I nearly got hit by a car backing up in an attempt to find a parking space in front of the old Memorial Gym. I somehow jumped out of the way. To this day, I always look both ways on one-way streets.
The "Look" messages are pretty common here in Tacoma, although they often just say "LOOK" with arrows rather than specific directions. Example (https://goo.gl/maps/a89exSoAEFfoUo7B7).
I believe these may be a standard of some form. I think I've seen them elsewhere.
Nanaimo, BC has some LOOK (https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1659801,-123.9348553,3a,37.8y,236.28h,78.73t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGoaHLD94kGclAPKeQj_-4g!2e0!5s20120901T000000!7i13312!8i6656) pavement markings that are very similar to the Tacoma ones, except they are lime green and are painted on the road instead of the sidewalk.
I remember seeing one of these when I was little and thinking the little dots inside the Os that made them look like eyes were cool.
It looks like the city has allowed them to fade, unfortunately.
Speaking of eyeball-related, road-related things, I've seen this photo on the FHWA website a few times, and was wondering if there are any existing examples of pedestrian signals with animated eyeballs?
(https://i.imgur.com/OHT9s5v.jpg)
Quote from: bcroadguy on August 14, 2021, 04:50:08 AM
Speaking of eyeball-related, road-related things, I've seen this photo on the FHWA website a few times, and was wondering if there are any existing examples of pedestrian signals with animated eyeballs?
(https://i.imgur.com/OHT9s5v.jpg)
That's bizarre. Never seen or heard of that before! The image seem low enough res that I have to wonder if even that example still exists. After all, it doesn't even have the often-obligatory countdown timer.
Quote from: bcroadguy on August 14, 2021, 04:45:48 AM
Nanaimo, BC has some LOOK (https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1659801,-123.9348553,3a,37.8y,236.28h,78.73t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGoaHLD94kGclAPKeQj_-4g!2e0!5s20120901T000000!7i13312!8i6656) pavement markings that are very similar to the Tacoma ones, except they are lime green and are painted on the road instead of the sidewalk.
I remember seeing one of these when I was little and thinking the little dots inside the Os that made them look like eyes were cool.
It looks like the city has allowed them to fade, unfortunately.
Speaking of faded examples...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51378933645_972565d50e_k.jpg)
Wait, where's the toilet!? (https://flic.kr/p/2mhbsXx) by Jacob Root (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62537709@N03/), on Flickr
lol
Quote from: jakeroot on August 14, 2021, 01:57:10 PM
Quote from: bcroadguy on August 14, 2021, 04:50:08 AM
Speaking of eyeball-related, road-related things, I've seen this photo on the FHWA website a few times, and was wondering if there are any existing examples of pedestrian signals with animated eyeballs?
(https://i.imgur.com/OHT9s5v.jpg)
That's bizarre. Never seen or heard of that before! The image seem low enough res that I have to wonder if even that example still exists. After all, it doesn't even have the often-obligatory countdown timer.
I'm fairly certain that one of these was tested in the Las Vegas area some time ago. If I recall correctly, the eyes were blue LEDs. I think the intersection was either Tropicana Ave or Flamingo Road at its intersection with Koval Lane–but I also don't think they've been there for a while.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2021, 11:46:30 PMWhy does Quebec not use bilingual signs? Aren't about half of the Québécois able to speak English? Never mind all those travelling through.
Québec used to have bilingual guide signs on the
autoroute network in Montréal. I remember seeing a few (including the classic St. James St./Rue St.-Jacques) when I visited in 1998. However, when I followed A-15 on the western side in 2017 to make the connection between A-50 near Mirabel and the US border at Rouses Point, I didn't see any bilingual signs at all. I suspect most of the ones I remember from the earlier visit have been replaced.
Quote from: 1 on August 07, 2021, 06:30:46 AMLawrence, MA doesn't have road signs in Spanish, and as far as I know, neither does the Rio Grande Valley or South Florida.
We do use bilingual signs in border areas in the US, but only very sporadically. I-19 in Arizona had a number (including bilingual tourist information signs and a Spanish-language version of the then standard Arizona welcome sign) that were installed in 1981 and removed in 1999. There are still bilingual signs warning of Mexico's firearms and ammunitions laws on the approaches to border crossings.
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 08:15:36 AMBut Canada requires double language signage everywhere else, it seems.
On federal property, yes (Government Property Traffic Regulations). The general approach is to adapt the standard signing used in the province in question to add the other language.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 15, 2021, 06:16:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2021, 11:46:30 PMWhy does Quebec not use bilingual signs? Aren't about half of the Québécois able to speak English? Never mind all those travelling through.
Québec used to have bilingual guide signs on the autoroute network in Montréal. I remember seeing a few (including the classic St. James St./Rue St.-Jacques) when I visited in 1998. However, when I followed A-15 on the western side in 2017 to make the connection between A-50 near Mirabel and the US border at Rouses Point, I didn't see any bilingual signs at all. I suspect most of the ones I remember from the earlier visit have been replaced.
Bilingual signs, including ARRÊT STOP signs, used to be common in heavily English areas of the province. Nowadays that kind of thing is absolutely prohibited, except in very limited cases near border crossings.
In my dad's hometown where Autoroute 5 was recently extended, there was a controversy over the BGS destinations. Wakefield, the most important village/hamlet/center in the municipality La Pêche, was not allowed to be included on any sign because only the French municipality name can be used, not an English hamlet name. This is despite the fact that the vast majority of people in the area, even French speakers, refer to the area as "Wakefield" rather than "La Pêche." According to my family members the sign had to be replaced because somebody graffitied "Wakefield" onto it at some point. Eventually a compromise was reached where the municipality renamed
Ch. de la Vallée to
Ch. de la Vallée-de-Wakefield so that Wakefield could be included on the signs as part of the road name.
I visited Wakefield a few weeks ago and was a bit confused why the QC government built A-5 to there. A-5 was completed deserted north of Gatineau and Wakefield didn't seem to be anything worth visiting for. I probably missed something.
Quote from: andrepoiy on August 15, 2021, 08:12:52 PM
I visited Wakefield a few weeks ago and was a bit confused why the QC government built A-5 to there. A-5 was completed deserted north of Gatineau and Wakefield didn't seem to be anything worth visiting for. I probably missed something.
Wakefield is a fairly popular tourist destination, Gatineau Park and Chelsea also draw a reasonable amount of traffic. If you saw 105 before the extension was built you'd probably agree that it was warranted.
Thing is, I drove 105 back to Gatineau to clinch it, and it was even more deserted
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 10, 2021, 04:22:50 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 04:15:37 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 10, 2021, 04:13:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2021, 04:11:57 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 10, 2021, 03:47:56 PM
In the US, of course, all of the road signs are in English or pictogram.
https://goo.gl/maps/vxYZWFQSMNm1eM898 :sombrero:
Que lastima
What's a pity?
If you read the comments in order, mrsman stated all US signs are in English. You debunked that. I went with the Bumble Bee Guy quote from The Simpsons. Sounded funnier in my head.
Point taken!
But seriously, in the US, even though there may be a handful of Spanish signs near the border or other areas where there is a heavy Spanish-speaking population, those signs are always supplemented with an English sign with the exact same message.
So as someone who speaks English and very little Spanish and basically no French, I can drive all around the US being able to understand all of the signs. But that would not be the case in Quebec.
To me I find it a bit odd. If you are going to post a sign about a road danger, the sign should be in the language that most of the drivers understand. And while in most of the US. English is sufficient, around the border they will post signs in Spanish (or French near parts of the Canadian border) so that foreign nationals driving in can understand the sign.
I would think that the Montreal area, and the roads leading to Montreal from Ontraio or New York, would have enough English-only tourists that it would probably make sense to have warning signs be signed in English as well. Even if not required, it is probably a good idea. And if a French-only law prohibits it, then the law should provide an exception for signs that provide a safety message.
Quote from: mrsman on August 18, 2021, 11:22:16 AM
To me I find it a bit odd. If you are going to post a sign about a road danger, the sign should be in the language that most of the drivers understand. And while in most of the US. English is sufficient, around the border they will post signs in Spanish (or French near parts of the Canadian border) so that foreign nationals driving in can understand the sign.
I would think that the Montreal area, and the roads leading to Montreal from Ontraio or New York, would have enough English-only tourists that it would probably make sense to have warning signs be signed in English as well. Even if not required, it is probably a good idea. And if a French-only law prohibits it, then the law should provide an exception for signs that provide a safety message.
It's not just foreign nationals who speak another language. For example, looking at the map below, why shouldn't road signs in the Houston area (30—40% Spanish speaking) be bilingual?
Or, for that matter, why should street signs in Laredo be posted in
English at all?
(https://i.imgur.com/oK9V8by.png)
Quote from: kphoger on August 18, 2021, 11:34:42 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 18, 2021, 11:22:16 AM
To me I find it a bit odd. If you are going to post a sign about a road danger, the sign should be in the language that most of the drivers understand. And while in most of the US. English is sufficient, around the border they will post signs in Spanish (or French near parts of the Canadian border) so that foreign nationals driving in can understand the sign.
I would think that the Montreal area, and the roads leading to Montreal from Ontraio or New York, would have enough English-only tourists that it would probably make sense to have warning signs be signed in English as well. Even if not required, it is probably a good idea. And if a French-only law prohibits it, then the law should provide an exception for signs that provide a safety message.
It's not just foreign nationals who speak another language. For example, looking at the map below, why shouldn't road signs in the Houston area (30—40% Spanish speaking) be bilingual?
Or, for that matter, why should street signs in Laredo be posted in English at all?
(https://i.imgur.com/oK9V8by.png)
I am not sure if the map is necessarily getting to the point.
It seems like the map is telling you areas that are heavily Spanish speaking. But it doesn't speak to whether those folks do not themselves speak English.
I could imagine that large parts of TX are bilingual, as opposed to Spanish-only.
Quote from: mrsman on August 18, 2021, 12:05:23 PM
I could imagine that large parts of TX are bilingual, as opposed to Spanish-only.
Quite likely.
But let's take Webb County specifically (Laredo). Here is the 2000 census data for residents over age five:
8.1% – English only
44.2% – Spanish, speak English less than very well
That's nearly half the population (44.4% total) who aren't fluent in English.
For what it's worth, Harris County (Houston) had 15.2% reporting "Spanish, speak English less than very well".
Quote from: mrsman on August 18, 2021, 11:22:16 AM
I would think that the Montreal area, and the roads leading to Montreal from Ontraio or New York, would have enough English-only tourists that it would probably make sense to have warning signs be signed in English as well. Even if not required, it is probably a good idea. And if a French-only law prohibits it, then the law should provide an exception for signs that provide a safety message.
In Quebec, there are some signs that are in English at the border, one of them includes "Radar detectors prohibited".
However, pictograms are generally used.
I found this article where somebody lobbied for bilingual signs, and they got pictograms instead:
https://globalnews.ca/news/4441278/quebec-replace-french-highway-signs-pictograms/
The stylized fact is that bilingual signs tend to be less about accommodating speakers of a given language who may be in a minority locally (say, English speakers in Mexico or Québec) and more about navigating to a political settlement where speakers of a given language do not feel that a competing language is expanding its base of speakers at their expense.
French speakers in Québec have traditionally felt embattled since the empirical observation, dating back to the 1970's, is that children are more likely to learn English than French unless the latter is clearly established as the regional default. This is why bilingualism is actively discouraged in the province, despite being formerly the norm in Montréal and other areas with large numbers of native English speakers that also attract English-speaking tourists. It is also why portions of Ontario that formerly had monolingual English signs are now signed bilingually--it is part of reassuring the franco-ontarien population that it is viable to use French in a majority English-speaking province.
As for accommodating English-speaking foreign visitors to Québec, the official line from MTQ is that this is done through the permanent signs relying on symbols. Indeed, any permanent signs you see with word messages only are specifically disallowed (the standard example is "Lentement" on a yellow diamond, occasionally seen in the wild but not to be found anywhere in the MTQ's sign catalogue). There is also an expectation that tourists arriving from abroad will do some research into word messages they might encounter on temporary signs or supplementary plates before they travel, just as they currently do before going to countries like Germany where the road system generally does not provide bilingual accommodation to English speakers. ("Anlieger frei," anyone?)
Another example is Wales, which has had bilingual signs since the mid-1960's. It has never been seriously argued that Welsh speakers couldn't cope with English-only signs. However, before bilingual signing was introduced, the Welsh speaker base was shrinking and new English-only signs were often vandalized. With bilingual signs (and official support for bilingualism in other spheres of public life), Welsh is no longer in decline and sign vandalism is essentially negligible.
Quote from: kphoger on August 18, 2021, 11:34:42 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 18, 2021, 11:22:16 AM
To me I find it a bit odd. If you are going to post a sign about a road danger, the sign should be in the language that most of the drivers understand. And while in most of the US. English is sufficient, around the border they will post signs in Spanish (or French near parts of the Canadian border) so that foreign nationals driving in can understand the sign.
I would think that the Montreal area, and the roads leading to Montreal from Ontraio or New York, would have enough English-only tourists that it would probably make sense to have warning signs be signed in English as well. Even if not required, it is probably a good idea. And if a French-only law prohibits it, then the law should provide an exception for signs that provide a safety message.
It's not just foreign nationals who speak another language. For example, looking at the map below, why shouldn't road signs in the Houston area (30—40% Spanish speaking) be bilingual?
Or, for that matter, why should street signs in Laredo be posted in English at all?
The Streets of Laredo?
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 18, 2021, 01:49:08 PM
The Streets of Laredo?
:sombrero:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.benitomovieposter.com%2Fcatalog%2Fimages%2Fmovieposter%2F44318.jpg&hash=b1024a1c2d94a00e2c939df1e04792ad3d6d946b)
(https://frontera.library.ucla.edu/sites/default/files/N/ntno_33_no-810_front.jpg)
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on August 18, 2021, 01:49:08 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 18, 2021, 11:34:42 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 18, 2021, 11:22:16 AM
To me I find it a bit odd. If you are going to post a sign about a road danger, the sign should be in the language that most of the drivers understand. And while in most of the US. English is sufficient, around the border they will post signs in Spanish (or French near parts of the Canadian border) so that foreign nationals driving in can understand the sign.
I would think that the Montreal area, and the roads leading to Montreal from Ontraio or New York, would have enough English-only tourists that it would probably make sense to have warning signs be signed in English as well. Even if not required, it is probably a good idea. And if a French-only law prohibits it, then the law should provide an exception for signs that provide a safety message.
It's not just foreign nationals who speak another language. For example, looking at the map below, why shouldn't road signs in the Houston area (30—40% Spanish speaking) be bilingual?
Or, for that matter, why should street signs in Laredo be posted in English at all?
The Streets of Laredo?
I had a young woman working for me part time. She was a college student 20 more or less. She was from Mission (TX), she LOOKED Hispanic. Her surname was Hispanic. She spoke not a word of Spanish. Her blond blue eyed boyfriend was fluent. He said it wasn't just an act. Lucy spoke NO Spanish. So I think your generalization is a little extreme.
Quote from: ran4sh on August 06, 2021, 07:48:37 PM
Route markers painted/applied to the pavement is something Georgia never did until about 8 years ago. Georgia still doesn't use them regularly (compared to e.g. TX, OH, NC), and I don't think I've seen them outside the Atlanta area.
In Texas they aren't used much outside of the Atlanta -sized cities.
The UK's not big on cloverleaf interchanges. Or mast arm traffic signals.
North Carolina seems to have an adversion to dedicated passing lanes on 2-lane highways. The only times I have seen passing lanes used regularly is in the mountains, and even still they are used conservatively. Down east, I have driven many 2-lane NC state highways, and i have yet to find a passing lane anywhere.
Quote from: fillup420 on August 21, 2021, 07:31:35 PM
North Carolina seems to have an adversion to dedicated passing lanes on 2-lane highways. The only times I have seen passing lanes used regularly is in the mountains, and even still they are used conservatively. Down east, I have driven many 2-lane NC state highways, and i have yet to find a passing lane anywhere.
US 17 used to have these between Wilmington and Jacksonville until the early 80s.
Don't recall any on any other routes I was familiar with back then.
Quote from: fillup420 on August 21, 2021, 07:31:35 PM
North Carolina seems to have an adversion to dedicated passing lanes on 2-lane highways. The only times I have seen passing lanes used regularly is in the mountains, and even still they are used conservatively. Down east, I have driven many 2-lane NC state highways, and i have yet to find a passing lane anywhere.
I think it's not so much an aversion as it is that most of NC's major roads are already 4 lane. I.e. a road that is 2-lane with occasional passing lane in a different state, would instead be 4-lane in NC.
Not my state but anyways . . .
Trombone mast arm with a 5-section tower in Missouri (https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZrnDf47aG1PN7DNT7). Whats odder is that there used to be a doghouse instead of the tower. It looks like the trombone design may have been to replace the previous, more standard mast arm, but Streetview makes it look like MoDOT is not replacing the trombone arm.
There's also another, newer trombone mast arm on MO 141 near Fenton. (https://maps.app.goo.gl/6Cd5XBzqvZ2t1dLY7)
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 12, 2024, 10:41:10 PMNot my state but anyways . . .
Trombone mast arm with a 5-section tower in Missouri (https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZrnDf47aG1PN7DNT7). Whats odder is that there used to be a doghouse instead of the tower. It looks like the trombone design may have been to replace the previous, more standard mast arm, but Streetview makes it look like MoDOT is not replacing the trombone arm.
There's also another, newer trombone mast arm on MO 141 near Fenton. (https://maps.app.goo.gl/6Cd5XBzqvZ2t1dLY7)
Slight quibble, those are truss arms, not trombone arms (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8742854,-74.0425895,3a,24.2y,350.23h,114.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFqbXSNaSFL6ml4rsWpbfKQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu).
Here in Alabama, a practice unusual to this state would definitely be a full cloverleaf (none exist anymore, AFAIK), another would be the use of inline-5 signals instead of doghouses.
My observation is the second generation of immigrants is fully bilingual and the third generation mostly loses that and becomes fluent only in the local language. Maybe in a few places like South Texas, that gets attenuated somewhat because of the huge Latin population.
But I was told by a South Texan I used to work with that there was huge peer pressure in school to speak English only. As in "you'll get your ass kicked if you spoke Spanish."
Quote from: Road Hog on April 13, 2024, 07:59:52 PMMy observation is the second generation of immigrants is fully bilingual and the third generation mostly loses that and becomes fluent only in the local language. Maybe in a few places like South Texas, that gets attenuated somewhat because of the huge Latin population.
But I was told by a South Texan I used to work with that there was huge peer pressure in school to speak English only. As in "you'll get your ass kicked if you spoke Spanish."
From my own experiences, I would qualify that it is generally true if both parents speak the same foreign language. Both of my father's parents were immigrants, from different countries that speak different languages. My grandmother did not know my grandfather's language and vice versa. They spoke broken English to each other, that eventually got better with time. My father, a second generation, only spoke English and did not know either of his parents' native languages.
My mother is also an immigrant and her native language is different from the other two. My father never spoke it. I do speak my mother's language to a degree, but admittedly not very well. If my father also spoke it, my skill in that language would be far better.
I am envious of most educated continental Europeans who seem to know how to speak at minimum three languages very well.
Quote from: mrsman on April 14, 2024, 08:28:15 AMI am envious of most educated continental Europeans who seem to know how to speak at minimum three languages very well.
I feel similarly with respect to bilingual French Canadians. It's amazing to think that many people can speak so many languages, when I haven't even managed to master one other than English.
Found a Bypass Lane with sign in Athens, Alabama (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7982321,-86.9272449,3a,48.9y,86.73h,87.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxBb4kjrCjiQ-OKUhQuIJ_g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu); these seem to be more common in Minnesota...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53689520903_9c9d4978fc_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pNmQ3T)
Quote from: formulanone on April 30, 2024, 10:31:23 AMFound a Bypass Lane with sign in Athens, Alabama (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7982321,-86.9272449,3a,48.9y,86.73h,87.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxBb4kjrCjiQ-OKUhQuIJ_g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu); these seem to be more common in Minnesota...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53689520903_9c9d4978fc_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pNmQ3T)
I'm aware of one other on Bankhead Parkway in Huntsville (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7426621,-86.5481889,3a,40.9y,66.93h,91.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxHicAkCLxr-JclTNM2WELg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu); I could've sworn I'd seen at least one other in the state but I can't recall where at exactly.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on May 01, 2024, 02:06:13 AMQuote from: formulanone on April 30, 2024, 10:31:23 AMFound a Bypass Lane with sign in Athens, Alabama (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7982321,-86.9272449,3a,48.9y,86.73h,87.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxBb4kjrCjiQ-OKUhQuIJ_g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu); these seem to be more common in Minnesota...
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53689520903_9c9d4978fc_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pNmQ3T)
I'm aware of one other on Bankhead Parkway in Huntsville (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7426621,-86.5481889,3a,40.9y,66.93h,91.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxHicAkCLxr-JclTNM2WELg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu); I could've sworn I'd seen at least one other in the state but I can't recall where at exactly.
I went with my daughter for driving practice, and she asked what "Bypass Lane" meant.
The Bankhead Parkway looks older than the one on Nick Davis Road, but seems to be more of a miniature passing lane, similar to those found on SR 5 south of I-20/59.
The one in the Huntsville image seems like it's there specifically to allow thru traffic to get around stopped left-turners, which is a nice option to have. The flip side of that is this one on VA-235 in Fairfax County, Virginia, which is expressly labelled as being solely for use as a bus stop (https://maps.app.goo.gl/25Gww2gPyC7jezbe8) (note the small white sign). I don't use that road all that often, but I assume the "bus only" restriction is routinely ignored.
A yellow placard with the street name adjoining a warning sign in Wisconsin. Common in states like Illinois or Georgia, but rare in Wisconsin: https://maps.app.goo.gl/jb1ziL3ZL9JTmGwe6
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 01, 2024, 08:40:41 AMThe one in the Huntsville image seems like it's there specifically to allow thru traffic to get around stopped left-turners, which is a nice option to have. The flip side of that is this one on VA-235 in Fairfax County, Virginia, which is expressly labelled as being solely for use as a bus stop (https://maps.app.goo.gl/25Gww2gPyC7jezbe8) (note the small white sign). I don't use that road all that often, but I assume the "bus only" restriction is routinely ignored.
Looking at the one in Athens, the one there seems to be for the same purpose.
This is the only "End Speed Zone" sign I'm aware of in all of New Jersey:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9164349,-74.9816156,3a,61.8y,53.34h,75.36t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4IWnStVupgID1eC_q7wugQ!2e0!5s20230401T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Usually they just post the new speed limit, and in fact there was a "Speed Limit 25" beyond the curve at this location, which is now gone for some reason. They seem to be more common in the surrounding states around here. Not sure how common they are elsewhere. Also, as I understand it, where these signs are used they usually imply an increase in speed limit, not a decrease as is the case here (default urban speed in NJ is 25)