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Breezewood

Started by theroadwayone, October 03, 2017, 02:10:45 AM

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In light of the threads about it, is it time we stopped beating a dead horse?

Yes
52 (44.8%)
No
64 (55.2%)

Total Members Voted: 116

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: sparker on September 12, 2018, 06:28:41 PM
^^^^^^^
And if an unbinding resolution for a general study can't even get out of committee, that is a definite sign that the "fix is in" regarding Breezewood (as well as its brethren up and down the turnpike).  It's sort of a "hot potato" that has been passed back and forth enough times that it's lost its heat -- the Feds are saying "we can't do anything about this" and the PTC and their political handlers follow with "we're not going to do anything about this".   And everyone dines on cold potato salad except for the travelers who stop at Mickey D's or another of the outlets along that golden-goose stretch of US 30.  :ded:
Why won't the feds help? Because of the tollway?


sparker

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on September 12, 2018, 07:18:15 PM
Quote from: sparker on September 12, 2018, 06:28:41 PM
^^^^^^^
And if an unbinding resolution for a general study can't even get out of committee, that is a definite sign that the "fix is in" regarding Breezewood (as well as its brethren up and down the turnpike).  It's sort of a "hot potato" that has been passed back and forth enough times that it's lost its heat -- the Feds are saying "we can't do anything about this" and the PTC and their political handlers follow with "we're not going to do anything about this".   And everyone dines on cold potato salad except for the travelers who stop at Mickey D's or another of the outlets along that golden-goose stretch of US 30.  :ded:
Why won't the feds help? Because of the tollway?

Short answer: yes.  Complex arrangement re funding of toll roads "grandfathered" into the Interstate system and who paid for connections to those (particularly in pre-OTR times, when structures for collecting tolls were needed at the entrances and exits of the various pikes, and were owned by the agency operating the turnpike).  Avoidance of Interstate funds being spent on facilities being so self-funded was written into the original '56 authorizing legislation; this has over the years led to convoluted connection arrangements (the dual-trumpet connection between I-94 and the ITR east of Gary that carries I-80 traffic is one of the "poster children" for this phenomenon) and, in the case of PA, lack of actual direct connection between the "free" Interstate network and the PA Tpk.  Of course, Breezewood, as an interruption of I-70, is by far the most notable of these -- but the lack of direct connections at Carlisle (I-81) and Bedford (I-99) have been subjects of discussion and derision as well.  But others (I-79, I-176) have been "fixed" over the years, so there is precedent for action -- it's just getting the "ducks in a row" regarding PA politics that seems to be the deciding factor.  And in the case of Breezewood (and to a lesser extent Carlisle & Bedford) there's a definite economic "ox" that would be "gored" by implementing a direct connection -- the "golden goose" of roadside businesses with what is effectively a "quasi-captive clientele" as mentioned in my previous post.  These folks quite clearly prefer to remain in their position of taking advantage of the "as long as we have to stop, we may as well get some food/snacks/fuel right here!" traveler sentiment.  That was instilled a half-century ago; it's not going to go away easily; it's embedded in the political reality of the situation. 

Alps

I-70 is continuous through Breezewood as a legislated Interstate. Let's get that straight. So that means technically it is not a gap. I-99 at I-80 is technically a gap, since I-99 ends south of the PA 26 interchange. So if we're going to focus on gaps in Pennsylvania, that is the next one.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on September 12, 2018, 08:40:19 PM
I-70 is continuous through Breezewood as a legislated Interstate. Let's get that straight. So that means technically it is not a gap.

I would be interesting in seeing the legislation.  Because from a highway engineering and traffic engineering standpoint, that segment of US-30 is not an Interstate or even a limited access highway.
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Alps

Quote from: Beltway on September 12, 2018, 09:15:58 PM
Quote from: Alps on September 12, 2018, 08:40:19 PM
I-70 is continuous through Breezewood as a legislated Interstate. Let's get that straight. So that means technically it is not a gap.

I would be interesting in seeing the legislation.  Because from a highway engineering and traffic engineering standpoint, that segment of US-30 is not an Interstate or even a limited access highway.
Neither is I-180 WY or I-78 NJ. Or (almost) anything in Alaska or Puerto Rico. Hence the legislation.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on September 12, 2018, 10:09:49 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 12, 2018, 09:15:58 PM
Quote from: Alps on September 12, 2018, 08:40:19 PM
I-70 is continuous through Breezewood as a legislated Interstate. Let's get that straight. So that means technically it is not a gap.
I would be interesting in seeing the legislation.  Because from a highway engineering and traffic engineering standpoint, that segment of US-30 is not an Interstate or even a limited access highway.
Neither is I-180 WY or I-78 NJ. Or (almost) anything in Alaska or Puerto Rico. Hence the legislation.

Those are logical, possibly.  WY I-180 is an urban spur, I-78 ends in surface streets within a mile of that point, Puerto Rico has a freeway network that (by PA standards) could have those highway posted as Interstate routes, and Alaska's long distance highways are nearly all adequate as nonlimited-access 2-lane highways.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sparker

^^^^^^^
It may not be a "gap" as far as the technical aspects of the legislation are concerned, but it is an unfinished Interstate as far as the technical aspects of Interstate facility standards are concerned.  Question?  Does the segment of US 30 over which the continuous movement of I-70 satisfy Interstate standards?  Answer: of course not.  And it doesn't matter if there are other exceptions to this; I-180/WY is a spur; the substandard nature of which does not disrupt the continuity of the system.  And the "NJ 139" section of I-78 is, while technically an interruption, is just an interim obstacle in the inevitable end of that route at the outlet of a tunnel in another state; I-78 doesn't connect to anything in NY; system connectivity isn't affected.  But I-70 east of Breezewood does connect to other parts of the network -- the only appropriate way to treat the situation is as an uncompleted Interstate facility, albeit one with a longstanding temporary connection.   

Alps

Quote from: sparker on September 12, 2018, 10:29:10 PM
^^^^^^^
It may not be a "gap" as far as the technical aspects of the legislation are concerned, but it is an unfinished Interstate as far as the technical aspects of Interstate facility standards are concerned.  Question?  Does the segment of US 30 over which the continuous movement of I-70 satisfy Interstate standards?  Answer: of course not.  And it doesn't matter if there are other exceptions to this; I-180/WY is a spur; the substandard nature of which does not disrupt the continuity of the system.  And the "NJ 139" section of I-78 is, while technically an interruption, is just an interim obstacle in the inevitable end of that route at the outlet of a tunnel in another state; I-78 doesn't connect to anything in NY; system connectivity isn't affected.  But I-70 east of Breezewood does connect to other parts of the network -- the only appropriate way to treat the situation is as an uncompleted Interstate facility, albeit one with a longstanding temporary connection.   
I-78 did connect to I-478 before the latter collapsed.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on September 12, 2018, 11:44:32 PM
I-78 did connect to I-478 before the latter collapsed.

Was the West Side Highway designated and signed as I-478?
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Beltway on September 12, 2018, 11:48:26 PM
Quote from: Alps on September 12, 2018, 11:44:32 PM
I-78 did connect to I-478 before the latter collapsed.

Was the West Side Highway designated and signed as I-478?
Designated. I wasn't alive for the rest.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on September 13, 2018, 12:46:18 AM
Quote from: Beltway on September 12, 2018, 11:48:26 PM
Quote from: Alps on September 12, 2018, 11:44:32 PM
I-78 did connect to I-478 before the latter collapsed.
Was the West Side Highway designated and signed as I-478?
Designated. I wasn't alive for the rest.

I-78 wasn't completed until well after the West Side Highway closed in 1973.

The section between Scotch Plains and Springfield was completed in August 1986.

The final segment connecting PA and NJ was completed in November 1989.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sparker

^^^^^^^^
Since the Holland Tunnel actually surfaces on Hudson St. (EB) and Broome (WB), each a few blocks inland from the West Side Highway, there was actually no connection at any time between it (I-78) and anything occupying the West Side Highway alignment that didn't require slogging over city streets.  In other words, even before the West Side expressway was removed, there wasn't a direct connection between it (at that time I-478 though likely unsigned) and the I-78/Holland tunnel -- at best it was its own "Breezewood".  Any planned connection was probably cancelled along with the rest of the cross-Manhattan freeways back in the '70's. 

Back in the '80's Manhattan -- particularly Sotheby's up on 72nd and York -- was a regular stop; not being a spendthrift I normally stayed in a Red Roof over in Edison, NJ; so getting out of Manhattan via the Holland Tunnel was a regular part of my routine there.  If there had been a direct connection between the West Side and the tunnel I would have found it; instead, I essentially ended up schlepping through the Village en route to the tunnel.  I like to drive -- but Manhattan is not one of my favorite places to do so; if I could get on & off the island without incident I considered it a minor victory!  So trust me on this one -- at least between 1982 and 2001 there was no direct access between the West Side Highway and the Holland Tunnel!

Beltway

My first trip thru the Holland Tunnel was on a family trip to near Orient Point, NY, in summer 1964, as that was on the preferred route between southern NJ and Long Island, the Verrazano Bridge was not open until later that year.  So we would have passed near the West Side Highway but I don't remember anything about it.  I do remember the NYC skyline and the Empire State Building (no WTC then), but back then I was too young to drive and have few highway memories.  First time I myself drove to NYC was in 1975 and by then the West Side Highway was closed.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: sparker on September 13, 2018, 05:26:07 AM
^^^^^^^^
Since the Holland Tunnel actually surfaces on Hudson St. (EB) and Broome (WB), each a few blocks inland from the West Side Highway, there was actually no connection at any time between it (I-78) and anything occupying the West Side Highway alignment that didn't require slogging over city streets.  In other words, even before the West Side expressway was removed, there wasn't a direct connection between it (at that time I-478 though likely unsigned) and the I-78/Holland tunnel -- at best it was its own "Breezewood".  Any planned connection was probably cancelled along with the rest of the cross-Manhattan freeways back in the '70's. 

Back in the '80's Manhattan -- particularly Sotheby's up on 72nd and York -- was a regular stop; not being a spendthrift I normally stayed in a Red Roof over in Edison, NJ; so getting out of Manhattan via the Holland Tunnel was a regular part of my routine there.  If there had been a direct connection between the West Side and the tunnel I would have found it; instead, I essentially ended up schlepping through the Village en route to the tunnel.  I like to drive -- but Manhattan is not one of my favorite places to do so; if I could get on & off the island without incident I considered it a minor victory!  So trust me on this one -- at least between 1982 and 2001 there was no direct access between the West Side Highway and the Holland Tunnel!
Good point, it really was a Breezewood. Had I-78 been completed as planned, there would have been an interchange with WSH. It certainly was complete and designated from NJ 24 through the tunnel by the 60s but I'm not sure how much was signed until the full completion in 1986.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on September 13, 2018, 01:16:32 PM
Good point, it really was a Breezewood. Had I-78 been completed as planned, there would have been an interchange with WSH. It certainly was complete and designated from NJ 24 through the tunnel by the 60s but I'm not sure how much was signed until the full completion in 1986.

I for one think that Westway would have been very beneficial and worth the cost which would have been 90% FHWA funded
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

sparker

Quote from: Beltway on September 13, 2018, 01:36:55 PM
Quote from: Alps on September 13, 2018, 01:16:32 PM
Good point, it really was a Breezewood. Had I-78 been completed as planned, there would have been an interchange with WSH. It certainly was complete and designated from NJ 24 through the tunnel by the 60s but I'm not sure how much was signed until the full completion in 1986.

I for one think that Westway would have been very beneficial and worth the cost which would have been 90% FHWA funded

IIRC, the original Westway/I-478 plans extended north all the way to the Lincoln Tunnel, which would have received a direct connection as well (back in the days when it was still considered part of I-495). 

cpzilliacus

CityLab: What Internet Memes Get Wrong About Breezewood, Pennsylvania - A photo of a strip of fast-food outlets and gas stations is used to critique the sameness of the American landscape. But it could only be one place on Earth.

QuoteIt's summer, and for hundreds of thousands of Americans, that means at least one burger-and-bathroom break in Breezewood, Pennsylvania. This half-mile gauntlet of gas stations, fast-food outlets, and motels, its oversized signs towering above the surrounding countryside, is familiar to anyone who has to drive regularly from the East Coast to the Midwest or vice versa.

QuoteAs the New York Times explained in 2017, Pennsylvania's "Gas Vegas"  sprang up because of an obsolete law. Breezewood is a deliberately awkward transition between Interstate 70 and the Pennsylvania Turnpike, where they (almost) meet. Back in the 1950s, as I-70 was being built, a law prohibited spending federal funds to channel drivers directly from a free road to a toll road. The law was later overturned, but to comply with it, highway planners designed a looping interchange that lets drivers avoid the turnpike if they (hypothetically) want to. From this constant stream of slow-moving traffic, a mega-rest-stop was born.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Rothman

Ugh.  I have no love for that place.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

roadman65

I do not travel that way so Breezewood is not a place I patronize, but if I was hungry or tired I would not go to the extreme of ignoring it if I was on I-70, US 30, or the Pa Turnpike if I needed a place to eat or crash for the evening while at that point on either of those routes.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

cpzilliacus

Quote from: roadman65 on July 31, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
I do not travel that way so Breezewood is not a place I patronize, but if I was hungry or tired I would not go to the extreme of ignoring it if I was on I-70, US 30, or the Pa Turnpike if I needed a place to eat or crash for the evening while at that point on either of those routes.

I have to drive through there sometimes.  But no business in Breezewood gets any of my money.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

roadman65

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2019, 09:15:35 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 31, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
I do not travel that way so Breezewood is not a place I patronize, but if I was hungry or tired I would not go to the extreme of ignoring it if I was on I-70, US 30, or the Pa Turnpike if I needed a place to eat or crash for the evening while at that point on either of those routes.

I have to drive through there sometimes.  But no business in Breezewood gets any of my money.
You would be better off writing to the town council as I am sure if any of us boycott the town, none of them would feel the pinch! 
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Plutonic Panda

When are they going to finally fix this? It is absolute insanity that this is allowed.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: roadman65 on July 31, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
You would be better off writing to the town council as I am sure if any of us boycott the town, none of them would feel the pinch! 

Not part of any city or town.

Breezewood is in East Providence Township in Bedford County, Pennsylvania.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

ixnay

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 31, 2019, 10:57:02 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 31, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
You would be better off writing to the town council as I am sure if any of us boycott the town, none of them would feel the pinch! 

Not part of any city or town.

Breezewood is in East Providence Township in Bedford County, Pennsylvania.

IOW Breezewood is an unincorporated place.

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

ixnay

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been through Breezewood, too few for me to have a first hand opinion on it.  One or two of those times I did stop to fuel up there.

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.



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