Traffic signal

[jeffandnicole]

Grabbed a quick picture of a brand new protected left turn in North Vancouver, BC.

[...]

Why not just use arrows for protected turns? And get rid of those ridiculous "Left Turn Signal" signs.

As they are regulatory signage, they are often posted to override the absence of a law specific to the signal.

[US71]

Grabbed a quick picture of a brand new protected left turn in North Vancouver, BC.

[...]

Why not just use arrows for protected turns? And get rid of those ridiculous "Left Turn Signal" signs.

IIRC, MoDOT sometimes uses arrows AND Left Turn Signal.

[CardInLex]

Well I'm an idiot and forgot to paste the link. Should be there now, my bad

Nope.

What is going on? To me it shows it is in my original comment. If the rest of y'all cannot see it, I'll paste it again.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.0352566,-102.0587668,3a,75y,97.89h,92.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0Tibwg0tOxWvHHgVW1_zWw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Came through for me. Never seen a Flashing Yellow ball sign before.

I think there is no green phase. Only a flashing yellow to draw emphasis that the right turns should yield to the peds when turning right.

[jakeroot]

Grabbed a quick picture of a brand new protected left turn in North Vancouver, BC.

[...]

Why not just use arrows for protected turns? And get rid of those ridiculous "Left Turn Signal" signs.

I've never received a clear answer why all-arrow displays aren't used in Canada apart from a few signals in Quebec. They don't seem to be banned but it's basically a national policy to only use green and yellow arrows, with yellow arrows only being used as part of protective-permissive displays and some protected-only signals.

Could also be a layover from British influence. I know the UK uses symbol versions of the same signs for dedicated right/left turn signals, and only green arrows are used there.

As they are regulatory signage, they are often posted to override the absence of a law specific to the signal.

It's just because the signals use red orbs. The signs indicate which signals are for turning traffic.

[signalman]

Grabbed a quick picture of a brand new protected left turn in North Vancouver, BC.

[...]

Why not just use arrows for protected turns? And get rid of those ridiculous "Left Turn Signal" signs.

IIRC, MoDOT sometimes uses arrows AND Left Turn Signal.

What you saw in MO was likely left behind from when circular red was used. Sure, it's redundant but there was no compelling reason to take it down when it still gets the message across.

[mrsman]

Here's an interesting light I stumbled upon: https://youtu.be/NleEmMbvMO4


iPhone

What the duck?

This reminds me of the intersection of Sunset Blvd and Beverly Glen Blvd in Los Angeles:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0824576,-118.434773,3a,75y,50.61h,91.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1qz_NaLSjADbdYtUHI-CqA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The geomety of the intersection really leads to an unusual result:

First, this is a split intersection.  Half a block to the west, Beverly Glen / Bel_Air meets Sunset.  So Beverly Glen's traffic must turn onto Sunset in order to continue north on Bevely Glen.  At the pictured corner, the intersection is very much Y-shaped.  The left turn onto Beverly Glen is nearly straight, while staying on Sunset requires a relatively sharp right turn.  So the intersection is signalized as though there is a straight movement with a protected right turn phase for the two lanes continuing on Sunset.

Another way of looking at it, is as a straight movement with a protected left turn.  But in that case, they are using a red ball instead of a red left arrow to protect the left from EB Sunset onto NB Beverly Glen.  I think LADOT views the left movement as a straight movement, so they don't have to adjust the arrows here.

IIRC, the sequence is as follows:


Sunset EB:  Red ball;                                        Sunset WB: Red ball;   BG SB: Red ball
Sunset EB:  Red ball, green right arrow;            Sunset WB: Green ball; BG SB: Red ball
Sunset EB:  Red ball, green right arrow;            Sunset WB: Yellow ball; BG SB: Red ball
Sunset EB:  Red ball, green right arrow;             Sunset WB: Red ball;    BG SB: Red ball
Sunset EB:  Green left arrow, green right arrow; Sunset WB: Red ball;    BG SB: Red ball, green right arrow
Sunset EB:  Yellow left arrow, yellow right arrow; Sunset WB: Red ball;   BG SB: Red ball, green right arrow
Sunset EB:  Red ball;                                         Sunset WB: Red ball;   BG SB: Red ball, green right arrow
Sunset EB:  Red ball;                                        Sunset WB: Red ball;   BG SB: Green left arrow, green right arrow
Sunset EB:  Red ball;                                        Sunset WB: Red ball;   BG SB: Yellow left arrow, yellow right arrow
Sunset EB:  Red ball;                                        Sunset WB: Red ball;   BG SB: Red ball

Here's a video at the signal from the perspective of BG SB.  Start at 13:45.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRcsTMj8S0w

[SignBridge]

That is a very odd signal for California. They usually do better. This is more like something you'd see in Massachusetts.

[mrsman]

That is a very odd signal for California. They usually do better. This is more like something you'd see in Massachusetts.

I agree.  I don't quite remember how this looked 25 years ago when I passed by here regularly.  But knowing how signals were in CA at that time, I believe it may have been one signal face on the left side mount, one signal face on the right side, and one (not two) signal face on the guy wire mast arm.  If there were only three signal faces to work with, it would make some sense to have the mast arm signal be some type of hybrid to control both left and right turning movements.  But now that there are four signal faces to work with (two on the mast arm), instead of retaining the old doghouse for both left and right turns, it would make more sense to have the two singal faces on the right being RA-YA-GA for the right turn (angled right turn) and the two signal faces on the left being RA-YA-GA for the left movement.  And I would suggest similar for the Beverly Glen view of the intersection as well.

[mrsman]

An even uglier example of red orb with green right arrow together is here at Wilshire/Santa Monica in Beverly Hills:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.067312,-118.4102217,3a,15y,233.17h,91.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZfLTV8qH9p4ahG0dWV1sew!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

(I believe the right most mast arm light also has a right arrow bulb, that must have burned out when GSV came by.)

This intersection has been signalized this way as long as I can remember.  A number of years ago, there were two lanes turning right from SM to Wilshire, with the leftmost right turn lane being an option lane that was primarily used by buses, since the third lane ended just after the bus stop.  The signalization controlling the option lane made some sense, as it was controlling both straight and right movements.  Now, it is just ugly.  The correct fix would be either 5 section towers, that would not be as disconcerting (RYG-YA-GA) or having the two right signals controlling the right turn movement exclusively (RA-YA-GA) and the two left signals (Left mast arm and left side mount) controlling the straight movements (R-Y-G straight arrow).

[plain]

An even uglier example of red orb with green right arrow together is here at Wilshire/Santa Monica in Beverly Hills:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.067312,-118.4102217,3a,15y,233.17h,91.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZfLTV8qH9p4ahG0dWV1sew!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

These used to be very common for right turn signals in Virginia but not so much nowadays. I hate them with a passion.

[fwydriver405]

An even uglier example of red orb with green right arrow together is here at Wilshire/Santa Monica in Beverly Hills:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.067312,-118.4102217,3a,15y,233.17h,91.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZfLTV8qH9p4ahG0dWV1sew!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

I'm probably guessing it's a miswire since the signal never did this in the summer of 2021, but as of 27 December 2021, this right turn signal in Salem NH is acting as such described above. Not sure if its fixed or still acting like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wug5xTIxnH8

[Caps81943]

An even uglier example of red orb with green right arrow together is here at Wilshire/Santa Monica in Beverly Hills:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.067312,-118.4102217,3a,15y,233.17h,91.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZfLTV8qH9p4ahG0dWV1sew!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

These used to be very common for right turn signals in Virginia but not so much nowadays. I hate them with a passion.

Whoa. Do you have any examples? Because I'm having a mind blown moment. Is that why there's a fair number of signals in modern VA that have green right arrows but still show red balls even when traffic from the right has a left arrow? Are those relics from the days when they would show BOTH the red ball and green arrow?

[plain]

An even uglier example of red orb with green right arrow together is here at Wilshire/Santa Monica in Beverly Hills:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.067312,-118.4102217,3a,15y,233.17h,91.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZfLTV8qH9p4ahG0dWV1sew!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

These used to be very common for right turn signals in Virginia but not so much nowadays. I hate them with a passion.

Whoa. Do you have any examples? Because I'm having a mind blown moment. Is that why there's a fair number of signals in modern VA that have green right arrows but still show red balls even when traffic from the right has a left arrow? Are those relics from the days when they would show BOTH the red ball and green arrow?

The two that I think might be left are in Hampton but I haven't been at either intersection in a couple years and I can't get a good shot on GSV to see if the red stays on, I'll try to look the next time I'm down there.

Hampton used to do it on nearly every 3-section right turn signal that had the corresponding left from the right side street you described, and they did this even when they still had 3-2-3 heads.

VDOT themselves did this at quite a few locations statewide, but I'm not sure if any of them are like this now.

The ones in the Richmond area (both city and VDOT installed) are gone, the last one by 2017.

As for your 2nd question, it sounds like you're describing right turn arrows that doesn't illuminate at all when the corresponding left from the side street is active, or are you describing a standard doghouse/tower?

[Caps81943]

An even uglier example of red orb with green right arrow together is here at Wilshire/Santa Monica in Beverly Hills:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.067312,-118.4102217,3a,15y,233.17h,91.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZfLTV8qH9p4ahG0dWV1sew!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

These used to be very common for right turn signals in Virginia but not so much nowadays. I hate them with a passion.

Whoa. Do you have any examples? Because I'm having a mind blown moment. Is that why there's a fair number of signals in modern VA that have green right arrows but still show red balls even when traffic from the right has a left arrow? Are those relics from the days when they would show BOTH the red ball and green arrow?

The two that I think might be left are in Hampton but I haven't been at either intersection in a couple years and I can't get a good shot on GSV to see if the red stays on, I'll try to look the next time I'm down there.

Hampton used to do it on nearly every 3-section right turn signal that had the corresponding left from the right side street you described, and they did this even when they still had 3-2-3 heads.

VDOT themselves did this at quite a few locations statewide, but I'm not sure if any of them are like this now.

The ones in the Richmond area (both city and VDOT installed) are gone, the last one by 2017.

As for your 2nd question, it sounds like you're describing right turn arrows that doesn't illuminate at all when the corresponding left from the side street is active, or are you describing a standard doghouse/tower?

A 3-section turn arrow light. I've noticed it in a couple places around the state, here's One such signal I've been through before which I know has this operation and it's shown on streetview.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0226051,-77.4071635,3a,60.4y,255.73h,91.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWQyiaaHy2EFclZdbZulf6g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DWQyiaaHy2EFclZdbZulf6g%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D233.09843%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Notice in the shot here the green left arrow turning from Cascades SB to Potomac View EB is illuminated. However Potomac View WB has all red lights, no green right arrow.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0224434,-77.4068144,3a,41.4y,272.14h,87.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMQPsaOk722Qpm8u0KxKfsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

But in THIS shot, again of Potomac View WB, there is a green right arrow activated. This same issue occurs in three of the directions (there appears to be no green right arrow for Nokes WB). Why can't the right green arrows be illuminated when the appropriate conflicting movements have left green arrows?

EDIT: Another example: Enon Rd EB green left arrow, all red balls on US-1 S: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3639919,-77.4572464,3a,75y,133.29h,85.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skY2eENvnGfK1UfpDIJRppA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Green right arrow for US-1 S despite not being illuminated when traffic to the right had a protected left: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3642102,-77.4569763,3a,75y,215.56h,81.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXS_7zZFxliGUpjkQBwPMhw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[plain]

An even uglier example of red orb with green right arrow together is here at Wilshire/Santa Monica in Beverly Hills:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.067312,-118.4102217,3a,15y,233.17h,91.72t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZfLTV8qH9p4ahG0dWV1sew!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192

These used to be very common for right turn signals in Virginia but not so much nowadays. I hate them with a passion.

Whoa. Do you have any examples? Because I'm having a mind blown moment. Is that why there's a fair number of signals in modern VA that have green right arrows but still show red balls even when traffic from the right has a left arrow? Are those relics from the days when they would show BOTH the red ball and green arrow?

The two that I think might be left are in Hampton but I haven't been at either intersection in a couple years and I can't get a good shot on GSV to see if the red stays on, I'll try to look the next time I'm down there.

Hampton used to do it on nearly every 3-section right turn signal that had the corresponding left from the right side street you described, and they did this even when they still had 3-2-3 heads.

VDOT themselves did this at quite a few locations statewide, but I'm not sure if any of them are like this now.

The ones in the Richmond area (both city and VDOT installed) are gone, the last one by 2017.

As for your 2nd question, it sounds like you're describing right turn arrows that doesn't illuminate at all when the corresponding left from the side street is active, or are you describing a standard doghouse/tower?

A 3-section turn arrow light. I've noticed it in a couple places around the state, here's One such signal I've been through before which I know has this operation and it's shown on streetview.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0226051,-77.4071635,3a,60.4y,255.73h,91.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWQyiaaHy2EFclZdbZulf6g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DWQyiaaHy2EFclZdbZulf6g%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D233.09843%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Notice in the shot here the green left arrow turning from Cascades SB to Potomac View EB is illuminated. However Potomac View WB has all red lights, no green right arrow.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0224434,-77.4068144,3a,41.4y,272.14h,87.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMQPsaOk722Qpm8u0KxKfsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

But in THIS shot, again of Potomac View WB, there is a green right arrow activated. This same issue occurs in three of the directions (there appears to be no green right arrow for Nokes WB). Why can't the right green arrows be illuminated when the appropriate conflicting movements have left green arrows?

EDIT: Another example: Enon Rd EB green left arrow, all red balls on US-1 S: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3639919,-77.4572464,3a,75y,133.29h,85.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skY2eENvnGfK1UfpDIJRppA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Green right arrow for US-1 S despite not being illuminated when traffic to the right had a protected left: https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3642102,-77.4569763,3a,75y,215.56h,81.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXS_7zZFxliGUpjkQBwPMhw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Those places might not have operated like that to begin with, which is odd especially considering there's no pedestrian signals or even crosswalks there. Seems to me that those would be the intersections where the right turn would stay green when the corresponding left is active.

[mrsman]

[snip]

Why can't the right green arrows be illuminated when the appropriate conflicting movements have left green arrows?

There are some states that do not allow a right turn arrow to be illuminated at the same time as the corresponding left turn arrow when U-turns are permitted. (CA comes to mind).  In Tucson, AZ they apply similar logic at some intersections and allow for a flashing yellow arrow for right turns that are protected from all movements other than the u-turn.

But I don't believe that VA generally follows that line of thinking.  They generally do allow a corresponding right turn green arrow, despite the potential conflict with u-turns.

Here, it seems to be a case of wiring the intersection as simply as possible.  The right turn signal is wired directly to the the normal orb signals.  When there is green orb, there is green arrow; and when there is red orb, there is red orb over the right turn signal.  This also seems to be a (mis)application of the one signal head per lane rule.  Each lane gets its own signal head.  The right lane, since it only allows for right turns, gets a right arrow.  But there is a problem, in that it could produce a conflict with a pedestrian who may want to walk along US 1 and cross Enon.  There is no safe opportunity to make this crossing, since during the entire green time on US 1, there is a green right arrow conflicting with the pedestrian path.  Granted, given the layout of this intersection, there are likely few pedestrians, but unless the crossing were illegal, the crossing should be allowed to occur as safely as practical.  At the very least, signal a green orb and not a green arrow so that cars would still have to concern themselves with pedestrians (if present) and not be presented with an automatic protected right turn.

IMO, a better approach would be to replace the rightmost signal (or even the right two signals, since I don't buy in to the signal head per lane approach as being necessary and three signal heads should be sufficient here) with a doghouse (or 5 section tower).  Green orb lit when all traffic has green.  Green right arrow to be lit during the phase of the corresponding protected green left arrow.

[plain]

[snip]

Why can't the right green arrows be illuminated when the appropriate conflicting movements have left green arrows?

There are some states that do not allow a right turn arrow to be illuminated at the same time as the corresponding left turn arrow when U-turns are permitted. (CA comes to mind).  In Tucson, AZ they apply similar logic at some intersections and allow for a flashing yellow arrow for right turns that are protected from all movements other than the u-turn.

But I don't believe that VA generally follows that line of thinking.  They generally do allow a corresponding right turn green arrow, despite the potential conflict with u-turns.

Here, it seems to be a case of wiring the intersection as simply as possible.  The right turn signal is wired directly to the the normal orb signals.  When there is green orb, there is green arrow; and when there is red orb, there is red orb over the right turn signal.  This also seems to be a (mis)application of the one signal head per lane rule.  Each lane gets its own signal head.  The right lane, since it only allows for right turns, gets a right arrow.  But there is a problem, in that it could produce a conflict with a pedestrian who may want to walk along US 1 and cross Enon.  There is no safe opportunity to make this crossing, since during the entire green time on US 1, there is a green right arrow conflicting with the pedestrian path.  Granted, given the layout of this intersection, there are likely few pedestrians, but unless the crossing were illegal, the crossing should be allowed to occur as safely as practical.  At the very least, signal a green orb and not a green arrow so that cars would still have to concern themselves with pedestrians (if present) and not be presented with an automatic protected right turn.

IMO, a better approach would be to replace the rightmost signal (or even the right two signals, since I don't buy in to the signal head per lane approach as being necessary and three signal heads should be sufficient here) with a doghouse (or 5 section tower).  Green orb lit when all traffic has green.  Green right arrow to be lit during the phase of the corresponding protected green left arrow.

That's exactly what VDOT did at the intersection of US 250 & VA 271 in Short Pump. When both roads was widened back in the 90's, the right turn signals on 250 were originally 3-sections with the red orbs and green arrows illuminated simultaneously. Eventually they eliminated the red orbs when the green arrows were on (still the same 3-sections). Now they are doghouses, combining the through movement with the right turn.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/HbMwSuatWYkKtbf69

[Lukeisroads]

Creative Bakersfield Creative https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3707251,-119.1455968,3a,39y,260.46h,96.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYOfJaLstlHvA_KvU-KPXSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[jakeroot]

Creative Bakersfield Creative https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3707251,-119.1455968,3a,39y,260.46h,96.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYOfJaLstlHvA_KvU-KPXSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Additional context and/or thoughts from you would be helpful. I see nothing unusual, apart from the lack of a far-left supplemental turn signal.

[Big John]

Creative Bakersfield Creative https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3707251,-119.1455968,3a,39y,260.46h,96.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYOfJaLstlHvA_KvU-KPXSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Additional context and/or thoughts from you would be helpful. I see nothing unusual, apart from the lack of a far-left supplemental turn signal.

MUTCD doesn't like a right turn signal on a far left signal.  For context, need to pan around the intersection to see what is going on and why through traffic is not allowed.

[jakeroot]

Creative Bakersfield Creative https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3707251,-119.1455968,3a,39y,260.46h,96.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYOfJaLstlHvA_KvU-KPXSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Additional context and/or thoughts from you would be helpful. I see nothing unusual, apart from the lack of a far-left supplemental turn signal.

MUTCD doesn't like a right turn signal on a far left signal.  For context, need to pan around the intersection to see what is going on and why through traffic is not allowed.

I can see why through traffic isn't permitted, the neighborhood is a RIRO to reduce cut-through traffic. Not too unusual of a setup IMO.

I was under the impression that it was okay to have right or left turn signals position on the opposite corner if that was the only permitted movement, especially in California where post-mounted signals are incredibly common. But I may be mistaken on that.

[roadman65]

Good ole PA with mix and match mast arms.
https://goo.gl/maps/SrHLhNsVXxg8NUJw7

Though I like the older one on the right welded at the attach point to the pole.

Probably soon the pole will be replaced as you can see the fatigue showing badly on the pole.

[roadfro]

Creative Bakersfield Creative https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3707251,-119.1455968,3a,39y,260.46h,96.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYOfJaLstlHvA_KvU-KPXSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Additional context and/or thoughts from you would be helpful. I see nothing unusual, apart from the lack of a far-left supplemental turn signal.

MUTCD doesn't like a right turn signal on a far left signal.  For context, need to pan around the intersection to see what is going on and why through traffic is not allowed.

I can see why through traffic isn't permitted, the neighborhood is a RIRO to reduce cut-through traffic. Not too unusual of a setup IMO.

And from that perspective, the use of right red arrows seems particularly egregious if a right turn is the only allowable movement from that side street...why not have a circular red so that it can more readily allow RTOR? (Not sure on the status of right turn on red arrow in California.)

[kphoger]

(Not sure on the status of right turn on red arrow in California.)

Not permitted.

https://california.public.law/codes/ca_veh_code_section_21453

[traffic light guy]

Good ole PA with mix and match mast arms.
https://goo.gl/maps/SrHLhNsVXxg8NUJw7

Though I like the older one on the right welded at the attach point to the pole.

Probably soon the pole will be replaced as you can see the fatigue showing badly on the pole.

The new pole is likely an accident induced replacement or hardware failure.