Las Vegas mayor pushing to widen I-15 between Primm, Barstow

[Kniwt]

The Las Vegas Review-Journal reports:
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/news-columns/road-warrior/las-vegas-mayor-pushing-to-widen-i-15-between-primm-barstow/

Las Vegas Mayor Carolyn Goodman is still carrying a torch for plans to widen Interstate 15 between Barstow and Primm. And she's hoping the project crosses the finish line by the time Los Angeles hosts the Summer Olympics in 2028.

... Whether that happens remains to be seen, but California is finally warming up to the idea, Nevada Department of Transportation Director Rudy Malfabon said.

... The average travel time between San Bernardino and Las Vegas is 3.5 hours, while the southbound trip can last up to seven hours on Sunday afternoons because of bottlenecks near Primm and Barstow, according to an updated master plan released earlier this year by the California Department of Transportation, known as Caltrans.

... During the RTC board meeting, Malfabon announced that his counterpart at Caltrans is "a lot more open this time"  to discussing the idea, but it's still unclear where the project will land on Caltrans' list of priorities. More immediately, the agency is focusing on interchange improvements in Barstow and Devore.

[theroadwayone]

Could that agricultural inspection thing near Yermo have something to do with the backups?

[mvak36]

Could that agricultural inspection thing near Yermo have something to do with the backups?

I think it just has to do with all the people that come up to Vegas from the LA area for the weekend.

[Max Rockatansky]

Could that agricultural inspection thing near Yermo have something to do with the backups?

I think it just has to do with all the people that come up to Vegas from the LA area for the weekend.

I thought that was moved closer to the state line so people couldn't bail off I-15 onto Yermo Road.

[theroadwayone]

Could that agricultural inspection thing near Yermo have something to do with the backups?

I think it just has to do with all the people that come up to Vegas from the LA area for the weekend.

I thought that was moved closer to the state line so people couldn't bail off I-15 onto Yermo Road.

I went to Zion last year, and we went through that thing. I think I pointed out to our driver that people could circumvent the thing that way.

[MarkF]

Could that agricultural inspection thing near Yermo have something to do with the backups?

I think it just has to do with all the people that come up to Vegas from the LA area for the weekend.

I thought that was moved closer to the state line so people couldn't bail off I-15 onto Yermo Road.

I went to Zion last year, and we went through that thing. I think I pointed out to our driver that people could circumvent the thing that way.

When I came back from Vegas back in June, the Yermo station was open and backing up traffic.  It was a nice drive on Yermo Road that day.  I think the station at the border was open, too, but that just appears to be for trucks.

[Henry]

About time they widened that stretch! And I'm glad Caltrans is on board with it.

[Max Rockatansky]

About time they widened that stretch! And I'm glad Caltrans is on board with it.

It's way overdue, I haven't driven that stretch of I-15 since 2012 since it gets so frustrating.  Lately I've been using US 395, CA 178, Trona Road, CA 190, Stateline Road, and NV 160 to avoid the conventional way into Vegas.  The weekends on 15 were especially brutal with traffic, that agriculture station alongside Yermo Road causes several Mile back ups. 

[sparker]

Since NV has done their part and widened their in-state portion to 6 lanes -- and I-15 is certainly accident-prone on the CA side of the state line, an argument could be made that any capacity increase brings with it a measure of additional safety -- less vehicles in close proximity to one another crowded into the existing two lanes.  If NV has data regarding accidents (both the number and severity of each) before & after their widening that shows a favorable correlation, that should bolster the argument that the entire route NE of Barstow needs the same treatment.     

[Max Rockatansky]

Since NV has done their part and widened their in-state portion to 6 lanes -- and I-15 is certainly accident-prone on the CA side of the state line, an argument could be made that any capacity increase brings with it a measure of additional safety -- less vehicles in close proximity to one another crowded into the existing two lanes.  If NV has data regarding accidents (both the number and severity of each) before & after their widening that shows a favorable correlation, that should bolster the argument that the entire route NE of Barstow needs the same treatment.   

But where does it fall on the priority list for Caltrans or if at all?  Its not like there has been a ton of talk on the California side about widening I-15, I believe this was the hint of anything like this at all.  Routes like 58 or US 395 haven't even been bumped up to full expressways not to mention all the other road priorities are caused by wear and tear.  I would imagine with some of these new road funds coming up that Caltrans is open to a lot more projects, but the problem is there is a ton of needs across the entire state.

[sparker]

Since NV has done their part and widened their in-state portion to 6 lanes -- and I-15 is certainly accident-prone on the CA side of the state line, an argument could be made that any capacity increase brings with it a measure of additional safety -- less vehicles in close proximity to one another crowded into the existing two lanes.  If NV has data regarding accidents (both the number and severity of each) before & after their widening that shows a favorable correlation, that should bolster the argument that the entire route NE of Barstow needs the same treatment.   

But where does it fall on the priority list for Caltrans or if at all?  Its not like there has been a ton of talk on the California side about widening I-15, I believe this was the hint of anything like this at all.  Routes like 58 or US 395 haven't even been bumped up to full expressways not to mention all the other road priorities are caused by wear and tear.  I would imagine with some of these new road funds coming up that Caltrans is open to a lot more projects, but the problem is there is a ton of needs across the entire state.

It's likely that any 6-laning of I-15 northeast of Barstow will be dependent upon funding from outside the usual Caltrans pools, possibly from NV interests -- the ones who would reap the most benefits from the facility expansion.  Unfortunately for that prospect, those folks -- since the recent tragic events in LV -- might be putting their $$ into increased internal security measures or beefing up police task forces (events such as that shooting tend to have near/middle-term fiscal consequences affecting other expenditure options).  There's little CA in-state support for such a project; sorry to say that it would likely take a significant incident along the route involving multiple fatalities to provoke any activity aimed at shaking loose funds for a general I-15 widening.   

[bigdave]

But where does it fall on the priority list for Caltrans or if at all?  Its not like there has been a ton of talk on the California side about widening I-15, I believe this was the hint of anything like this at all.  Routes like 58 or US 395 haven't even been bumped up to full expressways not to mention all the other road priorities are caused by wear and tear.  I would imagine with some of these new road funds coming up that Caltrans is open to a lot more projects, but the problem is there is a ton of needs across the entire state.

Excellent points! 

There are plenty of choke points around the state with heavy traffic delays on Sunday evenings as folks return from a weekend elsewhere. Getting eastbound through Santa Barbara on a Sunday evening as one example.

The Primm chokepoint is probably one of the worst, but I would be dubious that it would be a high priority for California to spend money making it easier for California residents to spend money in Nevada.

David

[kdk]

I drove north on 15 from San Diego to Las Vegas earlier this year on a Friday, early afternoon.  I had no idea how bad it really was.  It's more frustrating than anything because you end up driving a lot slower than you would for a long stretch of open road like that, most of the time around 60 mph.  You just cannot pass vehicles, both lanes are jam packed with cars.  Parts of this stretch do have the right side "truck lane" and that makes a huge difference on those parts with capacity, but it only lasts so long.  I have not had the pleasure of driving southbound on a Sunday yet, with the northbound checkpoint close enough to Barstow there isn't a backup, but going south I have heard how bad it is.  As much as I drive between Phoenix and Vegas and complain about how they need to finish up all those improvements, I would take that drive any day over the S. CAl to Vegas drive.

[mrsman]

But where does it fall on the priority list for Caltrans or if at all?  Its not like there has been a ton of talk on the California side about widening I-15, I believe this was the hint of anything like this at all.  Routes like 58 or US 395 haven't even been bumped up to full expressways not to mention all the other road priorities are caused by wear and tear.  I would imagine with some of these new road funds coming up that Caltrans is open to a lot more projects, but the problem is there is a ton of needs across the entire state.

Excellent points! 

There are plenty of choke points around the state with heavy traffic delays on Sunday evenings as folks return from a weekend elsewhere. Getting eastbound through Santa Barbara on a Sunday evening as one example.

The Primm chokepoint is probably one of the worst, but I would be dubious that it would be a high priority for California to spend money making it easier for California residents to spend money in Nevada.

David

Exactly.  There is a demonstrated traffic need for CA to widen I-15.  But there is no corresponding economic benefit of doing so since it primarily benefits the NV casinos.

This is similar to talk of a proposed additional rail tunnel connecting NJ to NYC.  NJ wants both states to pay for the project equally, NY feels that it mostly benefits NJ commuters and is unwilling to pay the same amount that NJ is paying so the project won't get done.

This might be a good candidate for tolling.  Isn't there a program that allows for tolling interstates if the money is used to improve the interstate?  Or perhaps reversible toll lanes in addition to the existing lanes.

[sparker]

But where does it fall on the priority list for Caltrans or if at all?  Its not like there has been a ton of talk on the California side about widening I-15, I believe this was the hint of anything like this at all.  Routes like 58 or US 395 haven't even been bumped up to full expressways not to mention all the other road priorities are caused by wear and tear.  I would imagine with some of these new road funds coming up that Caltrans is open to a lot more projects, but the problem is there is a ton of needs across the entire state.

Excellent points! 

There are plenty of choke points around the state with heavy traffic delays on Sunday evenings as folks return from a weekend elsewhere. Getting eastbound through Santa Barbara on a Sunday evening as one example.

The Primm chokepoint is probably one of the worst, but I would be dubious that it would be a high priority for California to spend money making it easier for California residents to spend money in Nevada.

David

Exactly.  There is a demonstrated traffic need for CA to widen I-15.  But there is no corresponding economic benefit of doing so since it primarily benefits the NV casinos.

This is similar to talk of a proposed additional rail tunnel connecting NJ to NYC.  NJ wants both states to pay for the project equally, NY feels that it mostly benefits NJ commuters and is unwilling to pay the same amount that NJ is paying so the project won't get done.

This might be a good candidate for tolling.  Isn't there a program that allows for tolling interstates if the money is used to improve the interstate?  Or perhaps reversible toll lanes in addition to the existing lanes.

It's entirely possible that HOT lanes from Barstow to Primm might be the answer; regular Vegas travelers would likely pay something for the privilege of getting there faster (especially if tempted by a 75 mph limit on those lanes).  As an aside, the casinos could cooperate on some sort of "voucher", whereby transponder users would be given credits to use once in town (chances are they'd lose quite a bit of whatever amount they received -- and NV interests would be happy as clams about that!).

[Plutonic Panda]

So if they added hot lanes they would need to add four new lanes. 2 in each direction. If they didn't and only added one each way, it would be annoying getting behind some slow driver. Alternatively, if they added just one each way with. I barrier, you would have people hopping in and out of the lanes to avoid tolls much like what goes on now on the 10 and 110 Freeway HOT lanes.

On a side note about I-10 between Phoenix and Indio, is traffic high enough to warrant 6 lanes?

[ilpt4u]

It's entirely possible that HOT lanes from Barstow to Primm might be the answer; regular Vegas travelers would likely pay something for the privilege of getting there faster (especially if tempted by a 75 mph limit on those lanes).  As an aside, the casinos could cooperate on some sort of "voucher", whereby transponder users would be given credits to use once in town (chances are they'd lose quite a bit of whatever amount they received -- and NV interests would be happy as clams about that!).

Just like the NW Indiana casinos will pay your Chicago Skyway and Indiana Tollroad tolls, if you give them a receipt or I-Pass/E-ZPass statement?

Could easily see that happening

Or better yet, the Casinos could simply build their own, private Tollroad in Cali, or come to some type of PPP with Caltrans to finance either I-15 improvements or building a parallel tollroad

[Max Rockatansky]

On a side note about I-10 between Phoenix and Indio, is traffic high enough to warrant 6 lanes?

I'd definitely say no; about the only thing that might be nice is a climbing lane for trucks east of Coachella and Quartzsite for truckers.  Really the only issue out there in the desert is making sure you don't get picked off by CHP near Blythe for not sticking near 70 MPH.

But where does it fall on the priority list for Caltrans or if at all?  Its not like there has been a ton of talk on the California side about widening I-15, I believe this was the hint of anything like this at all.  Routes like 58 or US 395 haven't even been bumped up to full expressways not to mention all the other road priorities are caused by wear and tear.  I would imagine with some of these new road funds coming up that Caltrans is open to a lot more projects, but the problem is there is a ton of needs across the entire state.

Excellent points! 

There are plenty of choke points around the state with heavy traffic delays on Sunday evenings as folks return from a weekend elsewhere. Getting eastbound through Santa Barbara on a Sunday evening as one example.

The Primm chokepoint is probably one of the worst, but I would be dubious that it would be a high priority for California to spend money making it easier for California residents to spend money in Nevada.

David

Exactly.  There is a demonstrated traffic need for CA to widen I-15.  But there is no corresponding economic benefit of doing so since it primarily benefits the NV casinos.

This is similar to talk of a proposed additional rail tunnel connecting NJ to NYC.  NJ wants both states to pay for the project equally, NY feels that it mostly benefits NJ commuters and is unwilling to pay the same amount that NJ is paying so the project won't get done.

This might be a good candidate for tolling.  Isn't there a program that allows for tolling interstates if the money is used to improve the interstate?  Or perhaps reversible toll lanes in addition to the existing lanes.

It's entirely possible that HOT lanes from Barstow to Primm might be the answer; regular Vegas travelers would likely pay something for the privilege of getting there faster (especially if tempted by a 75 mph limit on those lanes).  As an aside, the casinos could cooperate on some sort of "voucher", whereby transponder users would be given credits to use once in town (chances are they'd lose quite a bit of whatever amount they received -- and NV interests would be happy as clams about that!).

Isn't adding new express lanes to a pre-existing non-tolled Interstate the only way to actual add a tolled section?  I seem to recall I-4 Ultimate had something like that called for with tolled express lanes.

[sparker]

So if they added hot lanes they would need to add four new lanes. 2 in each direction. If they didn't and only added one each way, it would be annoying getting behind some slow driver. Alternatively, if they added just one each way with. I barrier, you would have people hopping in and out of the lanes to avoid tolls much like what goes on now on the 10 and 110 Freeway HOT lanes.

On a side note about I-10 between Phoenix and Indio, is traffic high enough to warrant 6 lanes?

Plenty of room in the median for an addition 4 lanes + at least a K-rail.  There might be enough room for the famous CA oleander bushes plus a thrie-beam barrier (make it look like CA 99!) -- those things don't need a lot of water! 

Re I-10 east of Indio: rarely crowded; no present need for 2 extra lanes. 

[roadfro]

So if they added hot lanes they would need to add four new lanes. 2 in each direction. If they didn't and only added one each way, it would be annoying getting behind some slow driver. Alternatively, if they added just one each way with. I barrier, you would have people hopping in and out of the lanes to avoid tolls much like what goes on now on the 10 and 110 Freeway HOT lanes.

Another thought: What if they did a two-lane tolled express lane setup that is reversible and barrier-separated?

The extra capacity is really only needed in a single direction at a time - northbound going into a weekend, southbound ending the weekend. This would prevent having only one lane or the excess of building two lanes for each direction.

The HOT setup might not be viable for this stretch... if HOV vehicles ride free without toll, there is likely a higher percentage of HOVs making this trip on weekends which would result in less revenue (not to mention that enforcement would likely be an issue). Toll every vehicle using the express lanes, and it becomes more lucrative to a toll agency to consider.

[sparker]

So if they added hot lanes they would need to add four new lanes. 2 in each direction. If they didn't and only added one each way, it would be annoying getting behind some slow driver. Alternatively, if they added just one each way with. I barrier, you would have people hopping in and out of the lanes to avoid tolls much like what goes on now on the 10 and 110 Freeway HOT lanes.

Another thought: What if they did a two-lane tolled express lane setup that is reversible and barrier-separated?

The extra capacity is really only needed in a single direction at a time - northbound going into a weekend, southbound ending the weekend. This would prevent having only one lane or the excess of building two lanes for each direction.

The HOT setup might not be viable for this stretch... if HOV vehicles ride free without toll, there is likely a higher percentage of HOVs making this trip on weekends which would result in less revenue (not to mention that enforcement would likely be an issue). Toll every vehicle using the express lanes, and it becomes more lucrative to a toll agency to consider.

Agree that in particular application HOT wouldn't be optimal; the tolling system would have to be set up to include all vehicles using the lanes rather than trying to parse out those of higher occupancy.  I'm not sold on the reversible-lane concept; a lot of L.A.-area folks do extended single-day trips rather than whole weekend so they don't have to get a hotel room -- and their schedules vary (some go up Friday night and come back Saturday afternoon or early evening and either gamble or go to shows while in LV).  If it were me, I'd do a single toll lane per direction with extended passing lanes (1-2 miles) every 15 miles or so, and double lanes up Baker Hill and Mountain Pass (both directions) where slower vehicles would likely pose problems.  There's ample room to expand to 2 continual lanes/direction if the initial concept proves fiscally sound.     

[Plutonic Panda]

So if they added hot lanes they would need to add four new lanes. 2 in each direction. If they didn't and only added one each way, it would be annoying getting behind some slow driver. Alternatively, if they added just one each way with. I barrier, you would have people hopping in and out of the lanes to avoid tolls much like what goes on now on the 10 and 110 Freeway HOT lanes.

Another thought: What if they did a two-lane tolled express lane setup that is reversible and barrier-separated?

The extra capacity is really only needed in a single direction at a time - northbound going into a weekend, southbound ending the weekend. This would prevent having only one lane or the excess of building two lanes for each direction.

The HOT setup might not be viable for this stretch... if HOV vehicles ride free without toll, there is likely a higher percentage of HOVs making this trip on weekends which would result in less revenue (not to mention that enforcement would likely be an issue). Toll every vehicle using the express lanes, and it becomes more lucrative to a toll agency to consider.

Could certainly be a compromise if 4 new lanes aren't needed or as you said only needed one way at a time, but I have never really been a fan of the reversible setup. I honestly would like to just see a new lane added and if the time comes for a 4 lane each way then toll it.

[Plutonic Panda]

So if they added hot lanes they would need to add four new lanes. 2 in each direction. If they didn't and only added one each way, it would be annoying getting behind some slow driver. Alternatively, if they added just one each way with. I barrier, you would have people hopping in and out of the lanes to avoid tolls much like what goes on now on the 10 and 110 Freeway HOT lanes.

On a side note about I-10 between Phoenix and Indio, is traffic high enough to warrant 6 lanes?

Plenty of room in the median for an addition 4 lanes + at least a K-rail.  There might be enough room for the famous CA oleander bushes plus a thrie-beam barrier (make it look like CA 99!) -- those things don't need a lot of water! 

Re I-10 east of Indio: rarely crowded; no present need for 2 extra lanes.

Yeah is the Vegas to Victorville bullet train still happening? I thought it was going in the median.

As for I-10. . . as I said, I am not familiar with this stretch but I went to Palm Springs and was chatting with a friend about how crazy people drive on I-15 to Vegas(I drive very fast sometimes so I am not the one to talk too much). He told me people drive even crazier between Indio and Phoenix. I plan to drive it this year as I will usually take the southern I-10 to OKC rather than I-40. I-40 gets bipolar during the winters!

[roadfro]

Yeah is the Vegas to Victorville bullet train still happening? I thought it was going in the median.

The high speed train concept hasn't died yet. As far as I'm aware, it is still in the planning phases. I believe they wanted to try to keep it in/near the I-15 ROW, but it would not make sense to locate it in the median.

[sparker]

Yeah is the Vegas to Victorville bullet train still happening? I thought it was going in the median.

The high speed train concept hasn't died yet. As far as I'm aware, it is still in the planning phases. I believe they wanted to try to keep it in/near the I-15 ROW, but it would not make sense to locate it in the median.

Chances are if HSR ever gets deployed between SoCal and LV, it would likely follow the existing UP line between those two points east of Barstow, as rail lines tend to, in terms of gradient, follow the path of least resistance.  In this case, the rail line arcs to the south of I-15 and passes through Kelso and Cima, rejoining the I-15 alignment north of Jean in NV.  The "Baker Hill" gradient topping out at Halloran Summit, plus the heavy SB grade over Mountain Pass, might be troublesome for HSR unless extensive (and expensive) tunneling were involved (much the same reason CA's HSR route avoids the I-5 alignment over the mountains between L.A. and Wheeler Ridge and uses essentially the original SP rail alignment via Palmdale, Mojave, and Tehachapi.)  Despite any advances in rail technology over the years, it's still metal wheels on metal rails -- and grades are always an issue.