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East Coast verses West Coast

Started by roadman65, September 28, 2014, 01:49:41 PM

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roadman65

I was just thinking about the differences between the Eastern half of the United States in many areas of route designations and even signaling practices. 

You have the west pretty much decommissioning most of the US route system while the East very much keeps the US route numbers as they were since conception in the 1920's with a few variations.

You have the Eastern states utilizing span wire traffic signals pretty much with exceptions like NH, NJ, MD now, and even Eastern PA.  You have the Western part of the US having mast arms exclusively with only Colorado and Texas keeping the span wires alive to an extent along with maybe Washington which I know has a few, but I cannot say how widespread they are for sure.

Thinking of all this, I would hate to see Caltrans thinking in Florida as US 1 would be truncated at Jacksonville.  US 41 if not at all be allowed in Florida would most likely be truncated to Tampa as US 41 does deviate several miles away from I-75 between Tampa and south of Lake City to maybe let it stay for a while.  US 90 and 92 would be axed for sure. 

Plus if Caltrans or any other state west of the Mississippi had control over the New England states both US 3 and 5 would be history already and US 7 would be truncated to Burlington, VT. 

I am guessing that its the population factor that plays into effect of the way state road agencies actually think.  Routes like US 5 are only saved because the northeast is so populated where such US routes, even though not a long corridor any more, have such regional importance that the routes be maintained.  Plus in the northeast people do not care about designations anyhow as someone in another thread did mention the fact all roads whether interstate, US, or state are all called route xx and not I-xx or US xx as much as they are out west and down south.

Then in the southeast or central parts where you still call US routes US xx, they still play an important role in commuting for locals hence why FDOT had not ridden the system of US 92 which is completely in the shadow of I-4 and I-275 (west of Tampa) its entire run.  People in Florida I know for the most part are traditionalists in everything and do not embrace physical change like we as humans take technological changes which even California people and other nations have done as a whole.

The point is that I am pointing out how different the East is from the West in this here nation.  Feel free to express any thoughts on this or add anything that you might of noticed from eastern roads to western roads that are completely different in any ways of forms.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe


Bruce

Quote from: roadman65 on September 28, 2014, 01:49:41 PM
You have the Eastern states utilizing span wire traffic signals pretty much with exceptions like NH, NJ, MD now, and even Eastern PA.  You have the Western part of the US having mast arms exclusively with only Colorado and Texas keeping the span wires alive to an extent along with maybe Washington which I know has a few, but I cannot say how widespread they are for sure.

Seattle uses span wire on most of their signals, especially in Downtown (Streetview example, at 4th & University), but the suburbs use mast arms instead. Frequent signal changes (e.g. adding new trolleybus wire, new streetcar signals, new bike lane signals...) are the most cited reason for keeping the span wires.
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Brandon

Quote from: roadman65 on September 28, 2014, 01:49:41 PM
I was just thinking about the differences between the Eastern half of the United States in many areas of route designations and even signaling practices. 

You have the west pretty much decommissioning most of the US route system while the East very much keeps the US route numbers as they were since conception in the 1920's with a few variations.

Then you have an eastern state, Michigan, that decommissioned and moved US routes like the western states.  US-12 was moved, US-112, part of US-10, US-27, and US-16 were decommissioned.  US-31, US-131, US-127, and US-23 were placed on freeways.

QuoteYou have the Eastern states utilizing span wire traffic signals pretty much with exceptions like NH, NJ, MD now, and even Eastern PA.  You have the Western part of the US having mast arms exclusively with only Colorado and Texas keeping the span wires alive to an extent along with maybe Washington which I know has a few, but I cannot say how widespread they are for sure.

Illinois and Wisconsin, both east of the Mississippi, exclusively use monotubes or trusses for traffic signal mounting.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton, "Game of Thrones"

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg, "Monty Python's Life of Brian"

Bigmikelakers

The only span wire signal I ever seen in California is down at Seal Beach Blvd and the 405 freeway. Its a temporary setup as that area has gone through a lot of construction for the North Orange County Carpool Lane connectors.

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7760054,-118.0735832,3a,75y,196.3h,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sK_axq8maew8JXaiHC2gysg!2e0

freebrickproductions

Quote from: stonefort on September 28, 2014, 05:34:15 PM
Not sure span wire vs mast arm is really an east coast vs west coast thing, it's more an old vs new thing. My experience on the east coast is that older areas that were built-up earlier use span wires, while newer areas that were build more recently use mast arms.

In practice this means a lot of city and town centers and inner suburbs use span wires while the newer outer suburbs have mast arms. Since the west coast is newer than the east coast, it has more mast arms.
Not sure if you've been to Alabama yet, but a lot of the signals on ALDOT installs, even new ones, use span wires.
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Alex

Delaware continues to replace their span wires with more and more mast arms. It will be a long time before you could file them under mast arms only, but its worth mentioning as far as the east coast being span wire centric.

vdeane

New York still uses span wire.  Case in point: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.759722,-73.7662409,3a,75y,273.17h,84.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1svPK026WNJ8lETEkx_js7Ig!2e0

This signal was installed about a decade ago when Wade Rd Ext was built.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

roadfro

Quote from: roadman65 on September 28, 2014, 01:49:41 PM
You have the west pretty much decommissioning most of the US route system while the East very much keeps the US route numbers as they were since conception in the 1920's with a few variations.

One note on this point is that a lot of the Interstate system in the west was substantially constructed on top of the existing US routes. This is due, in part, to the west not being as dense as the rest of the country so there's not a whole lot of other routings that would make sense. Also, much of the west has a lot of mountain ranges and the US highways were already routed along the most efficient mountain passes, so using those alignments made sense.

For example, I-80 in Nevada replaced US 40. I-80 is about 410 miles long, most of which was built on top of or directly alongside old US 40. Had they co-signed US 40 with I-80 (and assuming it left the Interstate to serve the towns along original routing), US 40 would probably have had less than 30 miles of independent roadway across the entire state. Keeping US 40 would not have served any independent utility, so decommissioning it makes sense when you have that much overlap.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

jakeroot

Quote from: Bruce on September 28, 2014, 04:01:56 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 28, 2014, 01:49:41 PM
You have the Eastern states utilizing span wire traffic signals pretty much with exceptions like NH, NJ, MD now, and even Eastern PA.  You have the Western part of the US having mast arms exclusively with only Colorado and Texas keeping the span wires alive to an extent along with maybe Washington which I know has a few, but I cannot say how widespread they are for sure.

Seattle uses span wire on most of their signals, especially in Downtown (Streetview example, at 4th & University), but the suburbs use mast arms instead. Frequent signal changes (e.g. adding new trolleybus wire, new streetcar signals, new bike lane signals...) are the most cited reason for keeping the span wires.

It seems that just within central Seattle span wires are still utilized. As you said, the suburbs almost univerally use mast arms in new installations. Go to downtown Tacoma or downtown Bellevue, both large cities as you know, and new installations (beginning around the turn of century) have all been mast arms.

nexus73

Oregon and Washington lost most of their US route mileage on the former US 99/99E/99W highways.  The only loss in Oregon other than that was US 126 from Florence to Prineville and a short segment of US 101 co-signed with US 26 from the 101/26 interchange to the 101/30 intersection in Astoria.  Washington's other big loss was US 10 as I-90 was built, otherwise they seem to be doing fine for US routes (2, 12, 97, 101, 395, 730) .

Blame California for most of the "West's" loss of US routes.  Up here in the PNW we just blame everything on California...LOL! 

Rick

   
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

roadman65

Quote from: nexus73 on September 30, 2014, 07:04:37 PM


Blame California for most of the "West's" loss of US routes.  Up here in the PNW we just blame everything on California...LOL! 

Rick

   

Then the Californians blame those in Southern California because many of them think that the southern part of the state is most responsible for what goes on or does not go on in the Golden State LOL!

Hey, are not most of the decommissioned routes in Southern Cal?   US 60, US 66, US 70, US 80, US 91 Need I say more if they want to blame the south in the north there.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

DTComposer

Quote from: roadfro on September 30, 2014, 04:24:52 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on September 28, 2014, 01:49:41 PM
You have the west pretty much decommissioning most of the US route system while the East very much keeps the US route numbers as they were since conception in the 1920's with a few variations.

One note on this point is that a lot of the Interstate system in the west was substantially constructed on top of the existing US routes. This is due, in part, to the west not being as dense as the rest of the country so there's not a whole lot of other routings that would make sense. Also, much of the west has a lot of mountain ranges and the US highways were already routed along the most efficient mountain passes, so using those alignments made sense.

For example, I-80 in Nevada replaced US 40. I-80 is about 410 miles long, most of which was built on top of or directly alongside old US 40. Had they co-signed US 40 with I-80 (and assuming it left the Interstate to serve the towns along original routing), US 40 would probably have had less than 30 miles of independent roadway across the entire state. Keeping US 40 would not have served any independent utility, so decommissioning it makes sense when you have that much overlap.

It's also the "in one state" rule - if a route comparable to CA-99 was in the East, it would go through three, four or more states and would have easily been justified in keeping its US designation. Same with the former US-466, 399, 299.


roadman65

Actually US 64 is one exception to that one as it exceeds 600 miles in North Carolina.  It beats out US 44 and US 4 that are both shorter and through more than 2 states each.

Oh yeah and US 58 in VA is one too LOL!
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

roadfro

Quote from: DTComposer on September 30, 2014, 07:50:50 PM
It's also the "in one state" rule - if a route comparable to CA-99 was in the East, it would go through three, four or more states and would have easily been justified in keeping its US designation. Same with the former US-466, 399, 299.

Once US 93 and US 95 were extended south past Las Vegas, US 466 became pointless...
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

The Nature Boy

Quote from: roadman65 on September 30, 2014, 08:46:12 PM
Actually US 64 is one exception to that one as it exceeds 600 miles in North Carolina.  It beats out US 44 and US 4 that are both shorter and through more than 2 states each.

Oh yeah and US 58 in VA is one too LOL!

There has to be a US highway in New York or PA with similar length too, right?

DTComposer

Quote from: roadfro on September 30, 2014, 09:51:00 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on September 30, 2014, 07:50:50 PM
It's also the "in one state" rule - if a route comparable to CA-99 was in the East, it would go through three, four or more states and would have easily been justified in keeping its US designation. Same with the former US-466, 399, 299.

Once US 93 and US 95 were extended south past Las Vegas, US 466 became pointless...


Agreed on the Barstow-Las Vegas-Kingman section; I was thinking of the Paso Robles-Bakersfield-Barstow section that's now CA-41 and CA-58 (that everyone wants to become the I-40 extension).

froggie

#16
QuoteThere has to be a US highway in New York or PA with similar length too, right?

If you're referring to routes comparable to US 64 NC or US 58 VA, it's not even close.  New York's longest US route is US 20, at about 373 miles.  Pennsylvania's longest is US 6, with 414 miles.

If you're referring to routes comparable to the total length of US 4 or US 44, then yes both New York and Pennsylvania have a few.  US 4's total length is about 256.  US 44 is slightly shorter, with 237 total miles.  New York has 3 routes (9, 11, and 20) that beat both, while Pennsylvania has 4 (6, 22, 30, and 322).  US 220 PA beats US 44 but comes short of US 4 with 245 miles while US 11 PA comes just short of US 44 with 235 miles.

(EDIT)  BTW, per AASHTO, US 83 has 899 miles just in Texas alone (with 4 other Texas US routes having over 700 miles and several others over 500 miles).  Per Robert Droz's US Highways website, that's longer than the total distance of *36* 1/2-digit US routes.

roadman65

#17
We also have state routes that are even longer than some US routes in the east.

GA 15 is longer than both US 46 and US 130 for one state routes for instance. Even if you add both US 46 and US 130 together its longer.

Also GA 15 is even longer than US 4 and US 44 if you count multi state route US routes.

Then you have even the New England trans state designations like CT 12, MA 12, and NH 12 that beat out US 4, US 44, US 46, and US 130 in total lengths each.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

roadman

MassDOT is phasing out span wires in favor of mast arms for most new and replacement installations.  Current AASHTO wind loading requirements have made strain poles prohibitively large for practical installation, especially in urban environments with restricted right of way.
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Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

roadman65

That is interesting considering that Williamstown's only traffic signal was switched out from the one single truss arm for the whole intersection and some side mounts for its other signals heads of the 3 way intersection to a span wire.

This must be recent they did that as just not too long ago I was on MA 2 through there where the signal is located.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Laura

Quote from: stonefort on September 28, 2014, 05:34:15 PM
Not sure span wire vs mast arm is really an east coast vs west coast thing, it's more an old vs new thing. My experience on the east coast is that older areas that were built-up earlier use span wires, while newer areas that were build more recently use mast arms.

In practice this means a lot of city and town centers and inner suburbs use span wires while the newer outer suburbs have mast arms. Since the west coast is newer than the east coast, it has more mast arms.

This is my experience with the Baltimore area. The suburbs mostly have mast arms at this point. The only intersections with mast arms in Baltimore City are ones that has been recently replaced as part of a larger project (like the Charles Street Reconstruction). If it's a one-off light, they will still use span wire, which they did when they added a light at Cold Spring Lane and Old York Road a couple of years ago.



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