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New Jersey Turnpike

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jeffandnicole:

--- Quote from: bzakharin on October 22, 2021, 11:32:50 AM ---
--- Quote from: Alps on October 20, 2021, 05:42:28 PM ---Just to note from the thread - control cities should always be consistent. Once you separate New York into constituent boroughs, any given path should not reaggregate back into New York.

--- End quote ---
I feel like that's too restrictive. Let's say you're coming from New York on I-78 West. Does it make sense to sign I-95 North as "upper Manhattan" there? Or if you get on Turnpike North north of all the other crossings, the best way to get to anywhere in NYC is to keep going. If all you see is "Upper Manhattan", it might be confusing.

--- End quote ---

That would apply *after* you get on the Turnpike though.  The other option would be to take the Turnpike/95 South, which would also be using more localized points, not "New York". 

This is pretty much the case entering a highway in any city.  If I enter the Interstate from Center City, and the next 3 exits down are still within the city, the exit signs are going to provide a local destination, not repeat the city's name several times, and there won't be any pull-thru signage showing the control city of the city you're already in.

mrsman:

--- Quote from: bzakharin on October 22, 2021, 11:32:50 AM ---
--- Quote from: Alps on October 20, 2021, 05:42:28 PM ---Just to note from the thread - control cities should always be consistent. Once you separate New York into constituent boroughs, any given path should not reaggregate back into New York.

--- End quote ---
I feel like that's too restrictive. Let's say you're coming from New York on I-78 West. Does it make sense to sign I-95 North as "upper Manhattan" there? Or if you get on Turnpike North north of all the other crossings, the best way to get to anywhere in NYC is to keep going. If all you see is "Upper Manhattan", it might be confusing.

--- End quote ---
It is too restrictive.  The 80/46 interchange is a major decision point for travel along the I-80 corridor.  It is also more than 15 miles away from either GWB or Lincoln Tunnel.  For those coming from far west, they can decide to take 46 to Lincoln Tunnel for Midtown Manhattan or take 80 to GWB for Upper Manhattan and Bronx.  (For Queens, Brooklyn, or Staten Island, depending on ultimate location, one could take GWB or likely take 46 to 3 to NJTP south to the Goethals.)  But once the decision point is passed on either 80 or US 46-NJ 3, there is no reason that you can't keep signing toward New York.  Certainly for anyone still on the highway, they need guidance to actually get them to the city.  Plus, for those who entered to the east of the 80/46 decision point, it would absolutely be helpful to be guided there on the guide signs.

With the NJTP, it is a little clearer.  Since it is the easternmost N-S expressway that is west of the Ny-NJ state line, it becomes the de facto route of connection between the crossings.  If you are headed on I-78, continuing straight will lead you to the Holland Tunnel for Lower Manhattan.  And if you want to reach other parts of NYC, you can transfer either north or south on the NJTP mainline to reach a different crossing.

From I-78, I-95's SB control should be either Trenton or Philly.  But supplemental guide signs should guide Brooklyn and Staten Island traffic to I-95 south.  Likewise, I-95 north's control should be Upper Manhattan, with guide signs for Midtown Manhatthan and Bronx to use I-95 north as well.

Some of these thoughts could become even more imporatant, to the extent that congestion pricing comes about.  If your goal is midtown, which will be in the congested zone, you do not want to take GWB to Manhattan and then a parkway or street south, because then you will face a double toll.  You will rather take the Lincoln Tunnel.

famartin:
Weíre probably getting too deep in the weeds here. You canít sign every location a road connects you to, there are too many. You need to pick the best one or two. An argument could be made that since I-95 forms a bit of a loop around the core of the city (diverting northward near Elizabeth and westward in the Bronx), anywhere between those points could be signed with the next control city beyond NYC. Most northbound traffic that follows 95 beyond Route 3 probably isnít going to Manhattan at all. Most southbound traffic heading to Manhattan probably doesnít go beyond 278, Iíd guess. The main problem with this is when the 80 traffic merges in to 95 northbound, as some of that probably is going to Manhattan (though even in that case, a fair chunk probably heads towards the Lincoln Tunnel instead).

mrsman:

--- Quote from: famartin on October 22, 2021, 07:23:56 PM ---Weíre probably getting too deep in the weeds here. You canít sign every location a road connects you to, there are too many. You need to pick the best one or two. An argument could be made that since I-95 forms a bit of a loop around the core of the city (diverting northward near Elizabeth and westward in the Bronx), anywhere between those points could be signed with the next control city beyond NYC. Most northbound traffic that follows 95 beyond Route 3 probably isnít going to Manhattan at all. Most southbound traffic heading to Manhattan probably doesnít go beyond 278, Iíd guess. The main problem with this is when the 80 traffic merges in to 95 northbound, as some of that probably is going to Manhattan (though even in that case, a fair chunk probably heads towards the Lincoln Tunnel instead).

--- End quote ---

This is a fair point.  The control cities that are used on the big overhead signs should be limited to listing no more than two destinations.

From NJ, the main roads that lead into NYC are: I-95 NB, US 1&9 NB, I-287 EB/NJ 440 NB, I-278 EB, US 22 EB, I-78 EB, I-280 EB, US 46 EB, NJ-3 EB/ NJ-495 EB, I-80 EB, NJ-208SB/NJ-4 EB, and Palisades Parkway (PIP) SB.  To the extent that any of these roads lead only to one of the tunnels/bridges, then the road simply leads to New York.  But to the extent that any of the roads leads to a decision point between the crossings, then it is appropriate to list a more specific control at the decision point, but possibly continuing to use the more generic New York control past the decsision point.

As our thread is discussing the NJTP, it is appropriate to analyze the situation of I-95 NB.  Certainly, south of I-287/NJ 440, the control of New York is best.  The first decision point is at I-287/NJ 440.  The EB control here should list Staten Island, but the NB control could still be New York.  I would say similar at the I-278 interchange.  Supplemental signage (on a roadside low sign, not overhead) could mention Brooklyn for those exits as well.

Once you get to the I-78 interchange, then I don't believe it is appropriate to use New York as the northbound control.  Some parts of New York like the financial district are best approached through the Holland Tunnel and some parts are better approached through the Lincoln or GWB further north.  A better distinguishing point is Lower Manhattan vs. Midtown & Upper Manhattan.  But once you continue beyong that decision point, New York, again becomes appropriate until the next decision point, which is the interchange for NJ-495.  Midtown Manhattan vs. Upper Manhattan & Bronx.  Then, it would probably be OK to keep "Upper Manhattan & Bronx" as the control until the stream of traffic from I-80 joins in.  At that point, "New York City" once again becomes the appropriate control all the way to the bridge.

The controls need to have "New York" need to guide people to New York.  And in my mind that means Manhattan.  At the appropriate decsion points between the Holland/Lincoln/GWB, the controls can be specific to guide you to the right parts of Manhattan, but once those decision points are passed, the guide signs should again lead you to New York until you reach the crossing.

Some of this would need to be adjusted for congestion pricing.  At the current time, I don't believe there needs to be any supplemental signage guiding I-80 traffic onto I-95 south to the Lincoln Tunnel.  Midtown bound traffic on I-80 (once past US 46) could still take the GWB and then go south on either HHP or Harlem River Drive.  With the new tolling though, it would be better to recommend that Midtown and Lower Manhattan traffic use I-95 south to reach either Lincoln or Holland to avoid the high congestion pricing toll.

SignBridge:
MUTCD Sec. 2E.10 reads in part: No more than two destination names or street names should be displayed on any Advance Guide Sign or Exit Direction sign. When two or three signs are placed on the same supports, destinations or names should be limited to one per sign or to total of three in the display.

That recommendation (not a standard) has existed through many generations of the Manual and is one I generally agree with. And as we've all noted it is followed in varying degrees. But it must also be a difficult task for the engineers involved to make the best decisions in this regard and not all of us will agree with all such decisions. 

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