AARoads Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: New Name for Cleveland Indians???  (Read 11463 times)

kphoger

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 23130
  • My 2 Achilles' heels: sarcasm & snark

  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 04:34:36 PM
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2021, 07:44:54 PM »


I don't think that Indians is offensive at all ...

It's only inoffensive if you're referring to people from India.

If they wanted to honor Native Americans, the team should've dropped their crude and racist mascot sooner and reach out to local tribes.

I agree that the term 'Indian' is not pejorative.  In the 1990s, fully 50% of American Indians preferred to be called 'American Indian' over anything and everything else.  In my city, there is a museum dedicated entirely to Native history and culture, and its name is the Mid-America Indian Center:  I don't know if people complain about the name, but I've never personally heard anyone do so.

However, the Cleveland Indians' mascot, I agree, should probably have been ditched years ago.
Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. Dick
If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14988
  • Transportation Design

  • Age: 26
  • Location: Renton, WA / Vancouver, BC
  • Last Login: October 02, 2022, 09:42:13 PM
    • Flickr
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2021, 09:37:48 PM »

I agree that the term 'Indian' is not pejorative.  In the 1990s, fully 50% of American Indians preferred to be called 'American Indian' over anything and everything else.

Among the common names for Indigenous Americans, I don't think any would be considered pejorative. But "Indian" ≠ "American Indian".

As I highlighted several posts ago (previous page for everyone but |kphoger|), the most popular term now among Indigenous Americans is "Indigenous American", with "American Indian" bringing up the rear. "Native American" remains popular but less so with each year.

So, for Cleveland, their two options moving forward would be either "Cleveland American Indians" or "Cleveland Indigenous Americans". Or, ya know, something massively better than those.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2021, 10:41:23 PM by jakeroot »
Logged
Check out my Flickr | Add me on Facebook!

sprjus4

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 7663
  • Location: Hampton Roads, VA
  • Last Login: Today at 11:54:01 AM
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2021, 09:39:51 PM »

Besides being PC, would it really make any difference? People are still going to call them the Cleveland Indians whether “American” or “Indigenous” is in there.
Logged

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14988
  • Transportation Design

  • Age: 26
  • Location: Renton, WA / Vancouver, BC
  • Last Login: October 02, 2022, 09:42:13 PM
    • Flickr
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2021, 09:54:16 PM »

Besides being PC, would it really make any difference? People are still going to call them the Cleveland Indians whether “American” or “Indigenous” is in there.

Meh. Every name change in history incurred some ridicule from those who grew up with the old name. But death solves this problem. Those who didn't know the old name (literally everyone too young to understand MLB right now and/or non-fans) eventually become the majority. Those who continue to cling on will quickly feel out of touch and hopefully move on.

It's not like a highway name. Sports teams are heavy on branding for clear reasons. The second this name change takes hold, the new name will be everywhere and I doubt "Indians" will remain popular for long.

I wasn't seriously proposing those names in my post, just for the record. No new name should have "Indian" in it.
Logged
Check out my Flickr | Add me on Facebook!

Roadgeekteen

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12705
  • Interstates everywhere to everything

  • Age: 19
  • Location: Needham/Amherst
  • Last Login: October 02, 2022, 04:25:07 PM
    • old interstate plans
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2021, 09:54:58 PM »

It's a sports team name. The wording does not have to be 100% correct.
Logged
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1SRJ5PPfTJp9aHxzFUw4IZdk5Racc8bhp&ll=41.78177440649835%2C-74.47910573821878&z=7

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14988
  • Transportation Design

  • Age: 26
  • Location: Renton, WA / Vancouver, BC
  • Last Login: October 02, 2022, 09:42:13 PM
    • Flickr
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2021, 10:01:29 PM »

It's a sports team name. The wording does not have to be 100% correct.

Well, no, but they should at least pick a good name.
Logged
Check out my Flickr | Add me on Facebook!

Roadgeekteen

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12705
  • Interstates everywhere to everything

  • Age: 19
  • Location: Needham/Amherst
  • Last Login: October 02, 2022, 04:25:07 PM
    • old interstate plans
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2021, 10:13:11 PM »

It's a sports team name. The wording does not have to be 100% correct.

Well, no, but they should at least pick a good name.
I was more referring to "Cleveland Indians" vs "Cleveland Indigenous Indians"
Logged
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1SRJ5PPfTJp9aHxzFUw4IZdk5Racc8bhp&ll=41.78177440649835%2C-74.47910573821878&z=7

thspfc

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 3461
  • I-180 in Wyoming >>>>> I-70 in Colorado

  • Age: 2014
  • Location: WI
  • Last Login: Today at 01:33:04 PM
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2021, 10:17:54 PM »

Just add a few letters and make it the Cleveland Indianains (Indianites?).
Logged
Whether a team makes the playoffs isn't comparable to whether they are above .500. Part of making the playoffs is getting the wins when you need them to get in, which Brady/Belichick always found a way to do. That's skill. Being above .500 or below .500 is just however things shake out. That's luck.

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14988
  • Transportation Design

  • Age: 26
  • Location: Renton, WA / Vancouver, BC
  • Last Login: October 02, 2022, 09:42:13 PM
    • Flickr
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2021, 10:26:14 PM »

It's a sports team name. The wording does not have to be 100% correct.

Well, no, but they should at least pick a good name.
I was more referring to "Cleveland Indians" vs "Cleveland Indigenous Indians"

In that case:

I wasn't seriously proposing those names in my post, just for the record. No new name should have "Indian" in it.
Logged
Check out my Flickr | Add me on Facebook!

Hot Rod Hootenanny

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2542
  • Your roadmeet didn't happen, if I was not there.

  • Age: 47
  • Location: Middle of Nowhere, Ohio
  • Last Login: Today at 11:43:43 AM
    • 20th Century roadfan material
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2021, 12:45:39 AM »

I have trusted sources in Cleveland that say the new nickname for the baseball team will be...
Cobra Verde




Or the Roadfans (Marc & I will sell the name for 1 million dollars..each)
Or maybe the Cleveland Roadmeet (set for August 28)

Or at the end of the day, just call them the Cleveland Roadgeekteenhaters.


Logged
Less important than dead cats.

kevinb1994

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2132
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Deerwood, Duval County, Florida
  • Last Login: September 20, 2022, 05:50:39 PM
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2021, 12:49:34 AM »

Cleveland Buck Fostons ;)
Logged

1

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 12208
  • Age: 23
  • Location: MA/NH border
  • Last Login: Today at 04:32:37 PM
    • Flickr account
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2021, 06:07:53 AM »

If the Indians are being renamed, does that mean we need to rename the state of Indiana?
Logged
My computer is currently under repair. I am using an iPad right now.

GaryV

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 2613
  • Location: Southeast Michigan
  • Last Login: Today at 02:40:21 PM
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2021, 08:42:08 AM »

If the Indians are being renamed, does that mean we need to rename the state of Indiana?

State of Nativia?

I like Canada's "First Nations" for a term.  The Inuit (fka Eskimos) are not Indians, and First Nations includes them.

Speaking of Eskimos:  https://www.change.org/p/escanaba-high-school-mascot-re-name-the-escanaba-eskymos  (Yes, that's their real mascot)  And their official school website:  https://www.eskymos.com/


Logged

jmacswimmer

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1187
  • BING BONG

  • Age: 26
  • Location: Maryland
  • Last Login: September 30, 2022, 12:07:41 PM
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2021, 08:44:48 AM »

If the Indians are being renamed, does that mean we need to rename the state of Indiana?
State of Nativia?

With a capital of Nativiapolis?
Logged
"Now, what if da Bearss were to enter the Indianapolis 5-hunnert?"
"How would they compete?"
"Let's say they rode together in a big buss."
"Is Ditka driving?"
"Of course!"
"Then I like da Bear buss."
"DA BEARSSS BUSSSS"

tdindy88

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 1755
  • Last Login: Today at 12:19:18 PM
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2021, 09:02:43 AM »

Interestingly enough, there was a bill up for discussion in the Indiana General Assembly this past session that would prohibit the state and capital city name from changing. Apparently there were people concerned enough about the possibility of that happening that they contacted their lawmakers last year during the pandemic voicing their worry about the state name being changed. The reality is that there is no one seriously considering changing the name from either the state or the city.

And then you have the Indianapolis AAA Baseball team, which is considering changing their name from the Indians. Nothing's been announced on that front yet.
Logged

kphoger

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 23130
  • My 2 Achilles' heels: sarcasm & snark

  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 04:34:36 PM
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2021, 10:18:17 AM »

No new name should have "Indian" in it.

I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.

Among the common names for Indigenous Americans, I don't think any would be considered pejorative.

Allow me to introduce the Aniak Halfbreeds:

https://www.kuspuk.org/domain/86
https://www.indianz.com/News/2005/09/12/alaska_native_v.asp (can you believe the name of that news outlet!)

Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. Dick
If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

JayhawkCO

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 5803
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Aurora, CO
  • Last Login: Today at 02:51:49 PM
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2021, 11:12:59 AM »

Kind of a tangent on this, but does anyone know if Washington plans to rename their team?  I thought Football Team was just meant to be an interim thing while they figured out the new branding.

Supposed to be for 2022. The process is not straightforward.

Regarding Cleveland, I suppose another name in their sports history is Barons, which was the name of their NHL team, but that team only lasted two seasons. I believe the WHA team was called the Crusaders. Cleveland Crusaders has a nice ring to it, but I’d wager some people would object to it if it calls to mind the religious wars known as the Crusades. Not that it matters, I haven’t heard either of those mentioned anywhere in connection with the Indians.

Valparaiso used to be the Crusaders and they just dropped the name this past February.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/30882084/valparaiso-dropping-crusaders-name-mascot-logos

Chris

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14988
  • Transportation Design

  • Age: 26
  • Location: Renton, WA / Vancouver, BC
  • Last Login: October 02, 2022, 09:42:13 PM
    • Flickr
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2021, 12:49:45 PM »

No new name should have "Indian" in it.

I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.

Those are tribes, and they should be free to do as they want. The Cleveland Indians are not a tribe.

For the record, I have no issue with "Chiefs" or "Warriors" or "Braves" or anything like that. I just think "Indian" is kind of a lazy name. They could do better.

Allow me to introduce the Aniak Halfbreeds:

https://www.kuspuk.org/domain/86
https://www.indianz.com/News/2005/09/12/alaska_native_v.asp (can you believe the name of that news outlet!)

[image clipped]

See, this is definitely...bizarre. I really don't know what to say. At least it's not a common term for those with mixed Indigenous/etc blood.
Logged
Check out my Flickr | Add me on Facebook!

hbelkins

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 18040
  • It is well, it is well, with my soul.

  • Age: 60
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Last Login: Today at 04:03:01 PM
    • Millennium Highway
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2021, 12:50:10 PM »



This has been debunked.

Quote
An oft-repeated legend is that the name "Indians" was chosen because it was one of the nicknames previously applied to the old Cleveland Spiders baseball club during the time when Louis Sockalexis, a Native American, played in Cleveland.[7] The attribution of the new name as being in honor of Sockalexis, a member of the Penobscot Tribe of Maine, is generally discredited given the discriminatory treatment of Native Americans in general, and Sockalexis in particular during that era.[8] The news stories published to announce the selection in 1915 make no mention of Sockalexis, but do make many racist and insulting references to Native Americans.[9]

Got a source for that quote? I smell Wikipedia. Which means it hasn't been debunked at all.

As a fan of the original "Star Trek" series, I bought all those paperback books that came out in the 70s and 80s as official continuations of the storyline and the characters. One of them introduced the term "Amerind" as a contraction of "American Indian."

I'm not enamored with the term "Native American." I'm a Native American, having been born in Lexington, Ky.
Logged


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

kphoger

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 23130
  • My 2 Achilles' heels: sarcasm & snark

  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 04:34:36 PM
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2021, 01:03:13 PM »



No new name should have "Indian" in it.

I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.

Those are tribes, and they should be free to do as they want. The Cleveland Indians are not a tribe.

So tribal associations should be able to call their teams "Indians" but non-tribal associations should not?  I guess they'd better not allow any non-Indians to be on the team, then.
Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. Dick
If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

  • *
  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 15949
  • Nit picker of unprecedented pedantry

  • Age: 32
  • Location: Norman, OK
  • Last Login: Today at 05:50:47 AM
    • Denexa 100% Plastic Playing Cards
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2021, 01:05:47 PM »

If they're in a suburb:
Parma Hams

Is there anybody important in the area named Sean? They could name their team after him and become the Parma Seans.
Logged

Roadgeekteen

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12705
  • Interstates everywhere to everything

  • Age: 19
  • Location: Needham/Amherst
  • Last Login: October 02, 2022, 04:25:07 PM
    • old interstate plans
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2021, 01:14:34 PM »



No new name should have "Indian" in it.

I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.

Those are tribes, and they should be free to do as they want. The Cleveland Indians are not a tribe.

So tribal associations should be able to call their teams "Indians" but non-tribal associations should not?  I guess they'd better not allow any non-Indians to be on the team, then.
Are there any native American mlb players?
Logged
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1SRJ5PPfTJp9aHxzFUw4IZdk5Racc8bhp&ll=41.78177440649835%2C-74.47910573821878&z=7

kphoger

  • *
  • Online Online

  • Posts: 23130
  • My 2 Achilles' heels: sarcasm & snark

  • Location: Wichita, KS
  • Last Login: Today at 04:34:36 PM
Logged
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. Dick
If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

jakeroot

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 14988
  • Transportation Design

  • Age: 26
  • Location: Renton, WA / Vancouver, BC
  • Last Login: October 02, 2022, 09:42:13 PM
    • Flickr
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2021, 01:35:53 PM »



No new name should have "Indian" in it.

I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.

Those are tribes, and they should be free to do as they want. The Cleveland Indians are not a tribe.

So tribal associations should be able to call their teams "Indians" but non-tribal associations should not?  I guess they'd better not allow any non-Indians to be on the team, then.

There's only one tribal team named Indians (so far as we know), so clearly it's not a preferred name amongst indigenous peoples either (my local tribe is called the Warriors). But yes, in my opinion, sports teams should avoid names that are just a race or ethnicity.
Logged
Check out my Flickr | Add me on Facebook!

Roadgeekteen

  • *
  • Offline Offline

  • Posts: 12705
  • Interstates everywhere to everything

  • Age: 19
  • Location: Needham/Amherst
  • Last Login: October 02, 2022, 04:25:07 PM
    • old interstate plans
Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2021, 01:40:56 PM »

Logged
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1SRJ5PPfTJp9aHxzFUw4IZdk5Racc8bhp&ll=41.78177440649835%2C-74.47910573821878&z=7

 


Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.