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Author Topic: New Name for Cleveland Indians???  (Read 11464 times)

jakeroot

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2021, 01:44:12 PM »

Are there any native American mlb players?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Native_American_sportspeople#Baseball
Ike Kahdot is interesting, as he actually did play for the Indians.

As did Joba Chamberlain. He retired from the Indians in 2016.
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kphoger

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2021, 01:59:16 PM »

There's only one tribal team named Indians (so far as we know), so clearly it's not a preferred name amongst indigenous peoples either (my local tribe is called the Warriors).

A few boarding schools as well, which I decided not to list.
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2021, 02:55:19 PM »

Are there any native American mlb players?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Native_American_sportspeople#Baseball
Ike Kahdot is interesting, as he actually did play for the Indians.

Ryan Helsley was in the news a few times for being somewhat outspoken against the Braves' tomahawk chop.
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Stephane Dumas

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2021, 03:59:15 PM »

Interestingly enough, there was a bill up for discussion in the Indiana General Assembly this past session that would prohibit the state and capital city name from changing. Apparently there were people concerned enough about the possibility of that happening that they contacted their lawmakers last year during the pandemic voicing their worry about the state name being changed. The reality is that there is no one seriously considering changing the name from either the state or the city.

And then you have the Indianapolis AAA Baseball team, which is considering changing their name from the Indians. Nothing's been announced on that front yet.

At this rate, I wonder if Hollywood will rename Indiana Jones and the tv show Eerie Indiana?
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Big John

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2021, 04:58:31 PM »



No new name should have "Indian" in it.

I'm curious to know what you think about the Akwesasne having a lacrosse team named the Indians, or the Six Nations of the Grand River having a lacrosse team named the Chiefs.

Those are tribes, and they should be free to do as they want. The Cleveland Indians are not a tribe.

So tribal associations should be able to call their teams "Indians" but non-tribal associations should not?  I guess they'd better not allow any non-Indians to be on the team, then.

There's only one tribal team named Indians (so far as we know), so clearly it's not a preferred name amongst indigenous peoples either (my local tribe is called the Warriors). But yes, in my opinion, sports teams should avoid names that are just a race or ethnicity.
Notre Dame Irish?
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jakeroot

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2021, 05:31:30 PM »

There's only one tribal team named Indians (so far as we know), so clearly it's not a preferred name amongst indigenous peoples either (my local tribe is called the Warriors). But yes, in my opinion, sports teams should avoid names that are just a race or ethnicity.

Notre Dame Irish?

Maybe one thing at a time. But from Googling around, it seems that nickname has sparked some discussion as well.

The Irish certainly got their fair share of shit from other Europeans, but historically I think Indigenous Americans probably had it worse. So I may argue that the two are a little different, although I don't love either name honestly.

Point being, I guess: new team names really shouldn't be like "Colorado Chinese" or "Pennsylvania Poles" or whatever.
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Bruce

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2021, 09:38:56 PM »



This has been debunked.

Quote
An oft-repeated legend is that the name "Indians" was chosen because it was one of the nicknames previously applied to the old Cleveland Spiders baseball club during the time when Louis Sockalexis, a Native American, played in Cleveland.[7] The attribution of the new name as being in honor of Sockalexis, a member of the Penobscot Tribe of Maine, is generally discredited given the discriminatory treatment of Native Americans in general, and Sockalexis in particular during that era.[8] The news stories published to announce the selection in 1915 make no mention of Sockalexis, but do make many racist and insulting references to Native Americans.[9]

Got a source for that quote? I smell Wikipedia. Which means it hasn't been debunked at all.

As a fan of the original "Star Trek" series, I bought all those paperback books that came out in the 70s and 80s as official continuations of the storyline and the characters. One of them introduced the term "Amerind" as a contraction of "American Indian."

I'm not enamored with the term "Native American." I'm a Native American, having been born in Lexington, Ky.

Yes, it's from Wikipedia, which does not make it unreliable. It is sourced to a contemporary report in the Plain Dealer from 1915, and this 1998 journal article that is behind a paywall.

According to Soxalexis' biographer, quoted in USA Today: “If we go all the way back to the inspiration for the nickname, a man who suffered racial prejudice to play in Cleveland, to play professional baseball — this has never honored Louis Sockalexis.”

---

One must be respectful of the terms that a marginalized group prefers. If they say it is a slur or it is unacceptable, then just back off and use what they prefer to be called. Some indigenous groups prefer Indian, others Native American, or others a more regional term (e.g. Coast Salish). It's not hard to just use the right term.

triplemultiplex

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2021, 11:00:36 PM »

The Fighting Irish is not analogous because they named themselves after themselves.  Irish Catholics at a Catholic university put their own ethnicity front and center.  They were not some group of outsiders who murdered and drove out all the Irish living in South Bend and then named their sports teams after them.
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kphoger

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2021, 09:55:47 AM »

One must be respectful of the terms that a marginalized group prefers.

But only if they're marginalized, of course.   :rolleyes:

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kphoger

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2021, 09:59:51 AM »

The Fighting Irish is not analogous because they named themselves after themselves.  Irish Catholics at a Catholic university put their own ethnicity front and center.  They were not some group of outsiders who murdered and drove out all the Irish living in South Bend and then named their sports teams after them.

White people didn't murder or drive any tribes out of the Cleveland area.  It was uninhabited from about the mid-17th Century on, probably due to intertribal warfare, disease, and/or weather.  The city of Cleveland wasn't established until more than a century later.
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2021, 10:01:46 AM »

One must be respectful of the terms that a marginalized group prefers.

But only if they're marginalized, of course.   :rolleyes:



Latin culture also treats these things a little differently, which I'm sure you're aware of.  Tons of my Mexican friends/coworkers have a friend named "Chino" because he has narrow eyes or "Gordo" if they're overweight.  Edinson Cavani, a famous Uruguayan soccer player got suspended for a couple of games because he called his darker skin friend "Negrito" on Twitter.  People were offended for his friend I guess.  He only got suspended because he was playing in England vs. playing in South America or Spain and almost decided to leave Manchester United because of it.

Chris

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2021, 10:57:14 AM »



One must be respectful of the terms that a marginalized group prefers.

But only if they're marginalized, of course.   :rolleyes:




Latin culture also treats these things a little differently, which I'm sure you're aware of.  Tons of my Mexican friends/coworkers have a friend named "Chino" because he has narrow eyes or "Gordo" if they're overweight.  Edinson Cavani, a famous Uruguayan soccer player got suspended for a couple of games because he called his darker skin friend "Negrito" on Twitter.  People were offended for his friend I guess.  He only got suspended because he was playing in England vs. playing in South America or Spain and almost decided to leave Manchester United because of it.

Not quite sure what your point is.  It's OK to call a minority person a racial slur as long as there's a "culture" of doing so?
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JayhawkCO

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2021, 11:23:42 AM »

Not quite sure what your point is.  It's OK to call a minority person a racial slur as long as there's a "culture" of doing so?

No, not at all.  My point was more that different societies have different views of what is normalized, for better or for worse.

Chris

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2021, 03:22:06 PM »

One must be respectful of the terms that a marginalized group prefers.

But only if they're marginalized, of course.   :rolleyes:



Latin culture also treats these things a little differently, which I'm sure you're aware of.  Tons of my Mexican friends/coworkers have a friend named "Chino" because he has narrow eyes or "Gordo" if they're overweight.  Edinson Cavani, a famous Uruguayan soccer player got suspended for a couple of games because he called his darker skin friend "Negrito" on Twitter.  People were offended for his friend I guess.  He only got suspended because he was playing in England vs. playing in South America or Spain and almost decided to leave Manchester United because of it.

Chris

Also, to the best of my knowledge, 'Gringo' is not a slur in the eyes of Mexicans (note the address of the store on the receipt, 'Coahuila' is a state in Mexico, one of 31).  To them it is a colloquial term used to describe those from north of the Rio Grande/Rio Bravo.

Mike
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kphoger

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2021, 03:27:44 PM »

Also, to the best of my knowledge, 'Gringo' is not a slur in the eyes of Mexicans (note the address of the store on the receipt, 'Coahuila' is a state in Mexico, one of 31).  To them it is a colloquial term used to describe those from north of the Rio Grande/Rio Bravo.

Whenever I refer to myself as a gringo in Mexico, the people I'm talking to look a bit uncomfortable for a few seconds, exchange quick glances with each other, then smile.  This leads me to believe they know to at least some degree that it's a derogatory term.

But anyway, by your logic, it's fine for white Americans to use the term "Indians" so long as it's not a slur in the eyes of those white Americans.
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #65 on: June 10, 2021, 03:46:49 PM »

If a time comes when I can read the lyrics of some of these rap (so-called) songs in prose form in a public setting without running seriously afoul of the PC Police....

Mike
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2021, 05:27:59 PM »

Cleveland has the option of using Spiders, as that was one of the longest names used other than Naps in baseball history in Cleveland.  They could even put the goofy smile on a spider that Wahoo had.  Cleveland Spiders could tie in with Marvel's Spider-Man or something too.
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Which reminds me of a not-completely-joking proposal to rename the state of Indiana to the state of Independence, and the capital to Independopolis.  The joking was that just rename it to Independs and Independsopolis. :)
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Seriously though, the Indianapolis team should be the Clowns.
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2021, 06:27:16 PM »

Cleveland has the option of using Spiders, as that was one of the longest names used other than Naps in baseball history in Cleveland.  They could even put the goofy smile on a spider that Wahoo had.

This is the obvious answer, which guarantees that it will not the one ultimately selected.

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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2021, 12:56:19 PM »


Cleveland has the option of using Spiders, as that was one of the longest names used other than Naps in baseball history in Cleveland.  They could even put the goofy smile on a spider that Wahoo had.

This is the obvious answer, which guarantees that it will not the one ultimately selected.

Got that right!

Like how Wichita's new team ended up being called the Wind Surge (over such obviously better alternatives as River Riders, 29’ers, and Linemen).  WTF?  That's a term for something that happens at sea along a coastline.  You may have noticed that Wichita doesn't have any seafront coastline.  Also, there was a gradual rollout of public opinion polls about what the new name should be, then the name was directly decided on by the team itself.  Wait, I got that in the wrong order:  the team decided on the name, THEN gradually rolled out public opinion polls about what the name should be.

Quote from: The Wichita Eagle — Wind Scourge: Wichita’s new baseball team name doesn’t blow us away — 14-NOV-2019
“I think that if you and I were drunk, high and having periodic grand mal seizures, we could come up with a dozen better names in half an hour,” my friend Matt wrote on my Facebook page.

[...]

It’s understandable that many Wichitans — even baseball enthusiasts — feel betrayed by the process that brought us the Wind Surge ... the months-long rollout of potential Wichita names seems insincere and meaningless.

Quote from: Summer News Cow — Sunday Blog: The Wichita Wind Surge name blows, but it doesn’t matter — 17-NOV-2019
We had a Newscow poll asking readers to vote what they thought of the Wichita Wind Surge – the  new name of the minor league baseball team.

By an overwhelming 93 percent, our readers said “it blows” ...

Quote from: Kirstie Alley (via Twitter) — 14-NOV-2019
... the name Wind Surge sounds like passing gas or or or who the hell knows ...
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2021, 04:09:01 PM »

The Fighting Irish is not analogous because they named themselves after themselves.  Irish Catholics at a Catholic university put their own ethnicity front and center.  They were not some group of outsiders who murdered and drove out all the Irish living in South Bend and then named their sports teams after them.

White people didn't murder or drive any tribes out of the Cleveland area.  It was uninhabited from about the mid-17th Century on, probably due to intertribal warfare, disease, and/or weather.  The city of Cleveland wasn't established until more than a century later.

You were too literal in your interpretation of my analogy.
Points for pedantry.



You guys can't honestly think a 'slur' like gringo, honky or cracker is on the same level as like the N-word and stuff.  Just look at those words; they are all so silly, it's hard to be insulted.
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2021, 04:29:19 PM »

You guys can't honestly think a 'slur' like gringo, honky or cracker is on the same level as like the N-word and stuff.  Just look at those words; they are all so silly, it's hard to be insulted.

But you also can't honestly think the N-word is on the same level as "Indian"...
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2021, 04:43:28 PM »

You guys can't honestly think a 'slur' like gringo, honky or cracker is on the same level as like the N-word and stuff.  Just look at those words; they are all so silly, it's hard to be insulted.

But you also can't honestly think the N-word is on the same level as "Indian"...
"Indian" is nowhere near the N-word. "Redskin" is also not as bad as the n word.
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2021, 04:46:00 PM »

You guys can't honestly think a 'slur' like gringo, honky or cracker is on the same level as like the N-word and stuff.  Just look at those words; they are all so silly, it's hard to be insulted.

But you also can't honestly think the N-word is on the same level as "Indian"...

Definitely not. "Redskins" was much worse for the same reason. I'm sure the team name would have been changed a long time ago if it were.

From doing a bit more research, it seems the name change could also be in response to losing Chief Wahoo. There's really no way to brand "Indians" in a fun way without it coming across as distasteful. Changing the name allows them to create a whole new brand.
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2021, 04:52:48 PM »

You guys can't honestly think a 'slur' like gringo, honky or cracker is on the same level as like the N-word and stuff.  Just look at those words; they are all so silly, it's hard to be insulted.

But you also can't honestly think the N-word is on the same level as "Indian"...

Definitely not. "Redskins" was much worse for the same reason. I'm sure the team name would have been changed a long time ago if it were.

From doing a bit more research, it seems the name change could also be in response to losing Chief Wahoo. There's really no way to brand "Indians" in a fun way without it coming across as distasteful. Changing the name allows them to create a whole new brand.
The Blackhawks logo is still hanging on.
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Re: New Name for Cleveland Indians???
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2021, 04:53:49 PM »

From doing a bit more research, it seems the name change could also be in response to losing Chief Wahoo. There's really no way to brand "Indians" in a fun way without it coming across as distasteful. Changing the name allows them to create a whole new brand.

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